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Doesn't Cayden advocate responsible drinking? And I don't think anyone said that Calistria's spitefulness is a positive trait. She's Chaotic Neutral. It's not an alignment with a great reputation.
I don't see Desna as being "all over the shop", and I think Gozreh's simplicity kind of works for a basic embodiment of nature's duality. So I'm not sure there's exactly universal agreement. :P
Erastil, not for any harsh reason he is just the God that is hardest to mesh with an Adventurer's backstory.
Now, this is a reason that makes sense to me. Erastil's a fun god, but it is hard to make his clerics PCs.
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Right, this is why Falayna is the best paladin god and should be fleshed out more. Her few paragraphs are more compelling than Iomadaes dozens of pages.The hate for Pharasma, Calistria and Cayden just bewilders me. To me, the only crime a god can commit is not being interesting.
That's why Asmodeus, Iomadae, Sarenwrap and Torag are the worst. At least Abadar has that funny "noble god of CAPITALISM" shtick to poke fun at. At least Cayden Cailean has that "has no idea what he's doing but DARN IT he's gonna do his best" attitude. The gods I just listed are miserably bland and unoriginal.
I love Falayna, but the LG deity that finally convinced me to make a Paladin was Kelinahat.
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The hate for Pharasma, Calistria and Cayden just bewilders me. To me, the only crime a god can commit is not being interesting.
Well, that's why I dislike Pharasma personally. She's ridiculously boring. In fact, being boring is basically the core of her character. So she's not only boring, she's rubbing how boring she is in everyone's face. With an added dash of "Oh I'm also the strongest person ever and totally the best at everything" on top of that just to make her even more obnoxious.
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She's Death. If she was a dude dressed like the Grim Reaper, nobody would bat an eye. ;D
Doesn't Cayden advocate responsible drinking? And I don't think anyone said that Calistria's spitefulness is a positive trait. She's Chaotic Neutral. It's not an alignment with a great reputation.
I don't see Desna as being "all over the shop", and I think Gozreh's simplicity kind of works for a basic embodiment of nature's duality. So I'm not sure there's exactly universal agreement. :P
Erastil, not for any harsh reason he is just the God that is hardest to mesh with an Adventurer's backstory.Now, this is a reason that makes sense to me. Erastil's a fun god, but it is hard to make his clerics PCs.
Insanely hard, but fun to play when you do :)
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Doesn't Cayden advocate responsible drinking?
Like getting blackout-hammered and becoming a god?
She's Death.
So? She's still boring.
If she was a dude dressed like the Grim Reaper, nobody would bat an eye. ;D
And yet Torag et al are getting flak specifically because they're stereotypical, bland and overly predictable. So I don't see where you're coming up with that argument.
In fact you said that exact same thing a few posts ago. So which is it?
That's not exactly advice he gives his followers. It's just how he started out.
Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. The latter is seen as the abuse of one of the deity's favored things, and as such is frowned upon. Similarly, although the faithful of Cayden Cailean are known to actively seek out danger and adventure, they recognize the need to withdraw when a situation turns sour. Stupidity does not equal bravery, and bravery should never be sought at the bottom of a keg.
In fact you said that exact same thing a few posts ago. So which is it?
Sorry, this isn't a contradiction. You'll notice I also defended Gozreh, identifying them as more of a "representation". There's always a place for the classics, and frankly, having the Grim Reaper as a god would be kind of unique,
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Doesn't Cayden advocate responsible drinking?Like getting blackout-hammered and becoming a god?
You can't judge someone as a bad example for something they did before they became an example. Once he realised people were worshipping him he did the responsible thing. It seems like he is trying his best to be a good example now. Without completely changing who he is.
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Which is a frequently-pickled backslapper.
Nope. Not interested.
Once again, seen too much death come out of "casual" drinking. Sun Wukong's essentially-benevolent Chaotic Neutrality is one thing. Trying to tell me that Cayden is a wonderful hero because he wants everybody to hoist a pint on a regular basis is another.
Thanks for this thread, with almost twice as many posts as the "Favourite Gods" one it shall be my reference point for showcasing that negativity is more popular than positivity :)
My pleasure :)
Thanks for this thread, with almost twice as many posts as the "Favourite Gods" one it shall be my reference point for showcasing that negativity is more popular than positivity :)
You needed this thread? Take a look at the threads that list great moments from games vs. the threads that list terrible incidents from games.
Also, it's possible that people just aren't that enthusiastic about Golarion's gods in particular. ;)
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Thanks for this thread, with almost twice as many posts as the "Favourite Gods" one it shall be my reference point for showcasing that negativity is more popular than positivity :)
In fairness, people are far more likely to go, "but why DON'T you like ____, ____ is awesome!"
Negativity may or may not be more popular, but it definitely generates more back and forth bickering.
<- See?
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Hell, isn't posting a snarky remark like that kind of a negative contribution, Gorbacz? ;D
She's Death. If she was a dude dressed like the Grim Reaper, nobody would bat an eye. ;D
She's supposed to be super strong (force of nature strong is supposed to be even stronger than god like strong), yet she can't even take proper revenge on Urgathoa for poaching on her dead souls... if there's one thing Death should not be, it's apathetic.
That's pretty much why I don't dislike Gozreh as much as I dislike, say, Iomadae. Gozreh is more an elemental force.
if there's one thing Death should not be, it's apathetic.
Really? I'm a big Discworld fan, myself.
That's pretty much why I don't dislike Gozreh as much as I dislike, say, Iomadae. Gozreh is more an elemental force.
if there's one thing Death should not be, it's apathetic.Really? I'm a big Discworld fan, myself.
He does his job efficiently, and when you see what he did to save the Hogfather, I definitely would not call HIM "apathetic".
She's Death. If she was a dude dressed like the Grim Reaper, nobody would bat an eye. ;DShe's supposed to be super strong (force of nature strong is supposed to be even stronger than god like strong), yet she can't even take proper revenge on Urgathoa for poaching on her dead souls... if there's one thing Death should not be, it's apathetic.
She can't just go smithing evil gods for a grudge that wouldn't be neutral of her.
Also death as apathetic is a much beloved character in disc world :P
Also if the all powerful death god wasn't apathetic there wouldn't be very much drama she just pick a side and they'd win lol
He does his job efficiently, and when you see what he did to save the Hogfather, I definitely would not call HIM "apathetic".That's pretty much why I don't dislike Gozreh as much as I dislike, say, Iomadae. Gozreh is more an elemental force.
if there's one thing Death should not be, it's apathetic.Really? I'm a big Discworld fan, myself.
Yeah, but she's not Discworld's Death, she's Azrael.
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We should probably stop arguing and just go write our Apologies for the Deities in the "favorite gods" thread.
Hell, isn't posting a snarky remark like that kind of a negative contribution, Gorbacz? ;DI can't believe I need to type this again tonight: I have an infinite demiplane of void inside of me. What did you expect, unicorns and fluffy bunnies?
Well, it is infinite...
She's Death. If she was a dude dressed like the Grim Reaper, nobody would bat an eye. ;DShe's supposed to be super strong (force of nature strong is supposed to be even stronger than god like strong), yet she can't even take proper revenge on Urgathoa for poaching on her dead souls... if there's one thing Death should not be, it's apathetic.
On the contrary, if Death (assuming it exists as an entity) was anything but apathetic we would all be in big trouble. To me Pharasma is destiny. She does what she needs to do when she needs to do it for reasons only her can understand. Yes, she doesn't care. And that's right: Death does not care for anything but the proper order of things and its ending. That's why she would not stop Rovagug herself, to Death he's just means to an end.
I also get the impression a lot of people dislike Pharasma because she's stated to be the most powerful deity of all and she happens not to be that person's favorite deity.
She's Death. If she was a dude dressed like the Grim Reaper, nobody would bat an eye. ;DShe's supposed to be super strong (force of nature strong is supposed to be even stronger than god like strong), yet she can't even take proper revenge on Urgathoa for poaching on her dead souls... if there's one thing Death should not be, it's apathetic.She can't just go smithing evil gods for a grudge that wouldn't be neutral of her.
Also death as apathetic is a much beloved character in disc world :P
Also if the all powerful death god wasn't apathetic there wouldn't be very much drama she just pick a side and they'd win lol
I think what people are getting that is if you have an almighty death god who can and must remain 100% aloof in all affairs...why keep them? You can't make an interesting story out of them because they can never interfere or do anything beyond maintain celestial clockwork. You could easily write out Pharasma and just have souls self sort (or have independent psychopomps do it) and everything would more or less be the same.
So the argument goes anyway.
Without an all powerful god governing the process what's stopping any god from coming and stealing souls (which pathfinder gods want and need) from the psychopomps?
On the contrary, if Death (assuming it exists as an entity) was anything but apathetic we would all be in big trouble. To me Pharasma is destiny. She does what she needs to do when she needs to do it for reasons only her can understand. Yes, she doesn't care. And that's right: Death does not care for anything but the proper order of things and its ending. That's why she would not stop Rovagug herself, to Death he's just means to an end.
I also get the impression a lot of people dislike Pharasma because she's stated to be the most powerful deity of all and she happens not to be that person's favorite deity.
Yep and yep
What do people thinks death should do? Go on a killing spree? Lol
I find that the enemies Pharasma apparently does nothing about make her more compelling- we know she hates Urgathoa and Zyphys, both of whom are(as a rough guideline) WAY less powerful than she is on the face of things.
So why DOESN'T she crush them like bugs? It's one of the very few cases where Pharasma actually has a stated opinion, as opposed to her usual bland neutrality. So why does she do nothing direct about them?
Why indeed.
Might be a story there.
That is the other option
But I think that would muddy the alignment wars waters since they need and want souls it could just turn into a war for the boneyard I personally enjoy a figure watching over the system and keeping people in line. But I can see why people wouldn't.
I find that the enemies Pharasma apparently does nothing about make her more compelling- we know she hates Urgathoa and Zyphys, both of whom are(as a rough guideline) WAY less powerful than she is on the face of things.
So why DOESN'T she crush them like bugs? It's one of the very few cases where Pharasma actually has a stated opinion, as opposed to her usual bland neutrality. So why does she do nothing direct about them?
Why indeed.
Might be a story there.
This would be interesting as a story hook.
I've already given my assumptions as to why she doesn't smash them but it would be fun to explore
Well she just sends people where there alignment determines they should go from what I understand. She isn't there to wipe out neutral evil. Also she is the goddess of fate so you gotta think she already knows what's gonna happen in the end.
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My dislike of Pharasma has always been mostly due to her not being impartial in telling us 'Undead are evil. Full stop.'
Now we have the situation as it is without a full explaination as to why the undead are evil. 'Hastening the end of everything' isn't enough for me when you have that end of the world looming over the Boneyard while also apparently having a method of pushing back Groetus' inevitable descent.
If she just said 'if you make undead I have to feed more souls to Groetus, and that screws up the balance of everything, so please stop or I will make you stop', then now we have a much more interesting dynamic where Pharasma maintains her alignment boundaries, will put her horrifically immense power on the table for everyone to be worried about, and all the good gods still have their reasons for fighting undead because they are forcing Pharasma's hand and are actively attributing to some terrible apocalypse, which makes them evil, and not because 'Pharasma, impartial and ambivalent god of the passage of death, said so'.
I just think there are some thematic problems with Pharasma that overall affect everything else in the setting in an annoyingly restrictive way.
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Got to admit that I wish Pharasma was more like Death from the Sandman, but perhaps that would be too Maniac Pixie Dream Girl.
The hate towards my fav Cayden Cailean makes sense to me. His main identifier as a God is alcohol and for a lot people that reminds them horrible moments in their lives. Plus, people like to reduce him to just being a fratboy party animal that encourages irresponsibility, which if you read Inner Sea Gods is entirely not his ethos. Also, I think Milani kind of steals his thunder with the whole freedom/liberty thing.
Personally I still love him alongside Desna and Vildeis and especially Ragathiel because at least they have mortal flaws that they struggle with and try to turn into a positive.
My dislike of Pharasma has always been mostly due to her not being impartial in telling us 'Undead are evil. Full stop.'
Now we have the situation as it is without a full explaination as to why the undead are evil. 'Hastening the end of everything' isn't enough for me when you have that end of the world looming over the Boneyard while also apparently having a method of pushing back Groetus' inevitable descent.
If she just said 'if you make undead I have to feed more souls to Groetus, and that screws up the balance of everything, so please stop or I will make you stop', then now we have a much more interesting dynamic where Pharasma maintains her alignment boundaries, will put her horrifically immense power on the table for everyone to be worried about, and all the good gods still have their reasons for fighting undead because they are forcing Pharasma's hand and are actively attributing to some terrible apocalypse, which makes them evil, and not because 'Pharasma, impartial and ambivalent god of the passage of death, said so'.
I just think there are some thematic problems with Pharasma that overall affect everything else in the setting in an annoyingly restrictive way.
Well in D&D almost all undeads ARE evil (and let's face it, in most games and fiction undead are just that even games like Vampire and Exalted make being undead a curse not a boon... unless you are Sabbath and one day Tzimisce will eat your soul because you mixed your blood with his... XD).
Also PF isn't that keen on Baelnorns and the like, even raise dead is evil.Want to explain Pharasma? She's the keeper of ballance, she doesn't like undeats not because they are evil but because they upset ballance. For the same reason she doesn't just crush Urgathoa and Zyphys. She may not like them but she's also mindful of the consequences if the keeper of ballance was to erase 2 deities. War between gods on a cosmic scale has consequences and Pharasma knows them.
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I'm cool with undead being evil, I just take issue with why. Pharasma's excuse just doesn't work as well as I would like.
I thought Pharasmas issue with the undead is they are a product of urgothoa escaping and she holds a grudge over that. I didn't think it had anything to do with alignment.
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Yeah, Pharasma doesn't say "Undead are Evil"- she doesn't care about evil- it's that undead are anathema to the process she oversees. In some fashion.
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Got to admit that I wish Pharasma was more like Death from the Sandman, but perhaps that would be too Maniac Pixie Dream Girl.
Actually, "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" refers more to a relationship trope than a character. Death isn't a MPDG because she doesn't exist solely to brighten a male protagonist's life; she has goals of her own, and while she does keep her gloomy brother company, her character and motivations go well beyond that (and he actually earns her affection, instead of just being an introverted a~**!&% she attaches herself to for no clear reason).
"Manic Pixie Dream Girl" is often mistakenly assigned as a personality trope, but it's a much more interesting and nuanced term.
I thought Pharasmas issue with the undead is they are a product of urgothoa escaping and she holds a grudge over that. I didn't think it had anything to do with alignment.
I suppose I had always conflated the two because as far as I could understand from the lore, that was her stance. But I can definitely see that being true and the alignment of undead being Urgathoa's fault.
And because KC is calling me out elsewhere, I would like to clarify that my problems stem from how she is written being weaker than I would like. But I suppose maybe my interpretations weren't that solid when put to the scrutiny of her fans AND A CERTAIN KOBOLD.
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Your ghoul is evil, GTW. We should've kept her in the cabinet.
How would you guys change Gozreh? I gotta say I kinda like her/him but that is mainly me being a sucker for good art xD I see him/her coming up as boring a lot
How would you guys change Gozreh? I gotta say I kinda like her/him but that is mainly me being a sucker for good art xD I see him/her coming up as boring a lot
While I have no beef with Gozreh as such... I think playing up the fury of nature a bit more would be a neat angle. Like,make Gozreh Chaotic Neutral, and inject some of the more natural aspects of Talos from Forgotten Realms toreallyhammerthe"fury"point home.
I think it's an aspect of Gozreh that often gets overlooked by people going,"Neutral Nature deity, yawn," but punctuating it a bit couldn't hurt.
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I think Gozreh serves their purpose just fine. They are a nature god. They do nature things. They are largely impartial and don't do much beyond that but their purpose is super important, as well as maintaining their favour. As a god, I think Gozreh is a very strong reason for why the setting should have a polytheistic approach to worship, since while not providing much for exciting adventuring ties, do have a lot going for them as an important aspect of cultural development and the building of civilisations. You can't do anything without adhering and respecting nature, and Gozreh will remind you if you choose to abuse it carelessly.
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Really enjoying this thread, thanks for starting it. There's a lot of lore here that I am regretfully unfamiliar with, so this discussion makes me want to go digging for all the things I need to know.
As an aside, I always found Zyphus, god of accidental death and graveyards and tragedy, to be the sort of deity that most adventurers would offer a prayer to before delving into some dangerous, unknown ruin. In our homebrew world, a cult devoted to him sprang up in the small town nearby a sprawling ancient megadungeon, since so many explorers and adventurers have met their end there in various grisly (and sometimes darkly humorous) ways.
How would you guys change Gozreh? I gotta say I kinda like her/him but that is mainly me being a sucker for good art xD I see him/her coming up as boring a lot
Give them interesting relationships with other gods and even better myths about those interactions. Legends about Gozreh outright trying to murder Abadar or romance Erastil in the ancient past would be fascinating.
My understanding of the worshippers of Zyphus is they rellish accidental death and even arrange it which is self defeating lol. So I imagine PCs praying more to a god of luck than him.