On the subject of devil contracts and immortality


Advice


I'm very new to Pathfinder, and it's my first RPG experience. I've been playing for a few months and know the basics, but there's still a lot I don't know.

I understand you can sign contracts with devils, usually surrendering your soul upon your death in exchange for some service or powers or something of that nature.

I also know you can (with a tremendous amount of time and money, and GM permitting) become a lich. Could you escape the binding contract by becoming undead, and placing your soul in a phylactery? Seems to me it should technically work. Are there rules about this, or is it at the GM's discretion?

According to the rules stipulated by Infernal Contract (Su), it is difficult and dangerous, but not impossible. Also, a damned soul cannot be restored to life except by a Wish or Miracle, and even in doing so, the devil knows about it. And, "it not only knows which soul has been restored to life, but also gains the benefits of a discern location spell targeted on the character or creature that restored the damned soul to life."

BUT, transferring your soul into a phylactery and becoming undead is not the same as restoring a soul. So would the devil know about it? And if so are there any protections against it? I know there are spells to protect against scrying and divinations like that, and if I had some sort of ring or amulet with a permanent protection against that, would that keep the devil from finding me immediately?

Infernal Investment (Su) also says that a devil may use Greater Scrying against any creature it has a contract with, and they always fail the will save. But if my soul isn't bound by the contract any more, would that nullify the contract?


This is very far outside the realm of rules and firmly in the realm of "if the gm allows it".

I think it would be very reliant on the specific wording of the contract. With some wording permitting it while others would make it a no go.

As a gm I think I would turn something like this into a plot point though. Ok, so you became a Lich and cheated the devil in question. How would the devil feel about this? Rightly peeved I would think. So you cheat the devil and earn his ire. He will attempt to claim your soul by force or manipulation for the duration of both your existences.


Depends on a few things outside of the rules. Basically DM variation territory.

Mainly, becoming a lich still requires dying, usually by drinking a nasty magical potion/poison. Does the magical "weight" of the contract override the "weight" of the phylactery?

Subverting the contract doesn't nullify it. Even if the phylactery worked and prevented "collection" the contract is still likely valid (don't let that phylactery get broken). The greater scrying effect would probably still work.

These contracts are probably several feet of parchment with size 4 font, and would probably be better resolved as a skill challenge involving dozens of bluff, profession: lawyer, sense motive, linguistics, and diplomacy checks. But for the sake of keeping the game moving, they aren't. Ultimately, who knows what fine print lurks in them? But I would imagine that there are clauses for well known "soul suspending effects", like lichdom or someone casting Trap the Soul?

Then again, becoming a lich is a terribly evil process, that will likely only increase the amount of pain and suffering in the world, and people desperate to escape said pain and suffering. Seems like something a smart devil might offhandedly mention. More evil in the world, more chances for deals, and eventually a very very powerful evil soul for hell. After all, its very simple to clue some do-gooding adventurers in on the location of the phylactery and the lich's lair.


I'd say "you're only delaying things". There is a non-zero chance that even a lich will die in any given instant. Given an infinite stretch of time, eventually that lich will end up dying and its soul condemned to Hell. As far as the contract is concerned, you're still bound. Your life has been extended by a lot, but (unless it was written by an inexperienced moron, which I don't think ever actually happens with Devils) they almost certainly have clauses for moving your soul outside of your body.

Whether scrying would find your undead body or your phylactery I'm not sure, but they can almost certainly use it on at least one of them. Quite possibly both.


If you tried to do this theres probably a very high chance that the devil will notice and try to interrupt the ritual to turn you into a Lich. Even if he doesnt/cant, he will likely try and destroy your phylactery afterwards. Devils arent too keen on being cheated


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Sure, but don't be surprised when the fiend recruits and/or helps a team of heroes to destroy the phylactery. Devils get their due.


Thanks for the information, everybody! Really appreciate it. Another question. If somebody dies and a devil takes their soul to Hell to be tortured, can a lich use the corpse left behind to raise as a minion? Obviously undead is undead, but I'm not certain if the fact that the soul is damned for eternity has any impact on how the body can be used. I feel like this is another GM decision, since I can't find any information on it. I'm asking because I want to know if a devil and lich can work together with a specific arrangement, where the devil collects the souls of those they kill, and the lich keeps the bodies to make into undead soldiers.


pretty much all necromancy doesnt use the original soul, so theres no issue with raising a body like that


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This sounds like a fantastic adventure or even campaign premise...

... the PCs are tasked to protect a powerful wizard from the forces of Hell who appear to be bent on capturing a powerful magic item he has forged. He convinces them to obtain the needed components to complete his ritual which will stave off their attacks. All goes well until the PCs begin to realize just what this ritual is for...


As others have stated this is pretty much all in the realm of the GM’s decision. If I were the GM I would rule that when you became a lich the devil that held the contract gets your phylactery. As The Black Bard stated becoming a lich requires that you die. The second you die the contract is due so and the devil collects his due. The fact that your soul is now in an item does not mean anything it still belongs to the devil.

From the devils point of view this is actually a huge windfall. Since you have died and the devil has collected his due neither of you is under any obligation. Since the contract is fulfilled any benefits you gained from it are lost, and the devil now has the phylactery of a lich in his control. This means he can destroy your phylactery at any time. Any clauses preventing the devil from directly harming the person making the contract are also gone. You just traded a bad contract for a much worse situation.

Again this is not based on anything in the rules, but rather as a GM what I would do in this situation. Devils have been around way longer than any spell caster and have seen probably every trick in the book.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The fact that your soul is now in an item does not mean anything it still belongs to the devil.

Again this is not based on anything in the rules, but rather as a GM what I would do in this situation. Devils have been around way longer than any spell caster and have seen probably every trick in the book.

I had not thought of the item being instantly transferred to the devil. That's a good point.


Isn't there usually a clause that the devil isn't allowed to directly or indirectly harm the mortal? But given that devils are basically immortal (unless killed) and likely have multiple contracts running at once, they can afford waiting. If the mortal only signs because they think they can trick the devil by becoming undead: Getting a soul with a delay of one thousand years is better than no soul.


Liches are undead, not alive. The devil collects your soul in your phylactery by force of infernal contract, and now sells you "not having your phylactery destroyed" in decades.


Quintessentially Me wrote:

This sounds like a fantastic adventure or even campaign premise...

... the PCs are tasked to protect a powerful wizard from the forces of Hell who appear to be bent on capturing a powerful magic item he has forged. He convinces them to obtain the needed components to complete his ritual which will stave off their attacks. All goes well until the PCs begin to realize just what this ritual is for...

Take this even further.

BBEG has been a thorn in the PCs' side for all of levels 1-7/8; they finally gather enough information on his true identity and location to go after him. They launch their offensive and find themselves facing wave after wave of devilish defenders who create a window through which he escapes.

He isn't heard from again for maybe 4 or 5 levels, when BOOM, the PCs are approached by a devil. "Hey, remember that guy we fought you over a few months ago?" Now, a devil insinuates himself into the party, guiding them toward their enemy whose minions are now undead.

Who wins? Does the lich rise? Do the devils interrupt the ceremony? Certainly the lich will attack the PCs if he succeeds, but what if the devils do? Do they turn on the PCs?


To quote the rules:

Quote:

Infernal Contract (Su)

As a full-round action, a contract devil can produce an infernal contract for a single living mortal creature. This contract can grant a wide range of abilities and effects, as detailed on the following page. To receive any of these bonuses, however, the mortal must sign its true name to the document of its own free will. Upon doing so, that mortal's soul is sworn to the contract devil, condemning the soul to an eternity of servitude in Hell rather than whatever fate would naturally befall it upon the mortal's death. Breaking a contract with a contract devil is difficult and dangerous; as long as the infernal contract remains in effect, the victim cannot be restored to life after death save by a miracle or a wish. If a mortal is restored to life in this way, the contract devil immediately senses the development—it not only knows which soul has been restored to life, but also gains the benefits of a discern location spell targeted on the character or creature that restored the damned soul to life.

Quote:

Infernal Investment (Su)

As a subclause of all infernal contracts, a contract devil can use greater scrying at will upon any creature it has a contract with. The target creature always fails its save against the devil's scrying attempt—this ability otherwise functions at caster level 20th.

There's nothing "natural" about going into a phylactery. Now the details of how this ability works and how the devil would react are very much up to the GM, I would rule that the this mechanic intervenes when the soul departs the material plane to go wherever its afterlife is meant to be. By becoming a Lich, the soul never departs for that destination, and thus not only does it not go to the Devil, but he's not even notified of it. Lichdom does not invalidate or break the contract in any way, it just delays the soul's fate. Every lich eventually dies, even if it takes millennia (unlikely; if the Lich does nothing, it risks becoming a demi-lich, if it does stuff, it's likely to attract attention until it gets disposed of for good). Of course, if a human starts to live to 200 year old, the devil could wonder what's going on and scry on him. If the devil's not completely lousy, he probably scries regularly on all of his clients to evaluate his investments. If he sees that one of his clients became a Lich, he'd likely not be pleased, and nothing would stop him from helping heroes against the Lich to cash in on his investment.


Since becoming undead means you are literally evil forever, the devil doesn't even need to officially collect the soul; he can just put it on Hell's balance sheet like a subprime mortgage payment.


Intelligent undead can change their alignment. It's not easy, but it's not as hard as for aligned outsiders.


Becoming a lich is just one way of cheating death.

There are several ways to achieve Immortality as a class ability. The 20th level wizard discovery or the 10th level Living Monolith ability (acquirable by 15th level without giving up any caster levels) are the two easiest.

Astral Projection from a permanent demi-plane is effective immortality as the caster's body is placed in suspended animation and the spell has no duration limit. Back it up with a few clones in other locations and the caster becomes effectively unkillable without expending considerable resources, with no guarantee of finding all the clones.


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Didn't read all the responses....

But becoming a lich requires dying, so you can become undead. When you come to that step in the process instead of your soul being sealed into the phylactery, it instead goes to the appropriate devil.

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