well, the rules do say you can't end your movement in another creature's square unless its helpless. RAW, I guess if Tiny was adjacent at the start of its turn to Large, Tiny could 5 ft. in, if it's allowed 5 ft steps, and take a full attack. Tiny would still provoke, not from the 5 ft. adjustment, but from entering Large's square. Tiny would then accidentally end its movement in an illegal square and be pushed back to the last legal square it was in: adjacent to Large.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.
This is the rules quagmire we've found ourselves in, the rules state you can't end your movement in another's square, that would have to get resolved before you can full attack. I am not prepared to say the rules don't allow for tiny sized full attacks, but something is wonky.
Admittedly a lot of this side conversation has to do with the conversion, 4 tiny creatures can occupy 1 5ft square, the same as 1 small or medium creature.
Now, can a Tiny creature legally end it's move in a square that's occupied by a medium creature? I say no, that's why I'm advocating the stance that I am. If it was a diminutive creature I'd say yes, because the rules contain this tidbit about creatures that are 3 sizes larger than others...
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.
In any instance it seems that entering the square of another creature provkes an AoO, this does not seem circumventable by the 5ft step.
IWR* that you cannot stay in a creature's square unless both are tiny or smaller, or the three size difference. IWR* that the tiny creature attacking a medium creature would be able to take a 5' step into that square to attack. IWR* that step does NOT provoke attacks for leaving the square, but DOES provoke attacks from the medium creature in the square entering. IWR* finally, that after the full attack, the tiny creature must, with no cost to movement, return to the square it started from.
IWR* I Would Rule - This is what I would do at my table but see no concrete rules to back it up.
Reasoning- I think this keeps within the spirit of all the rules of the actions. 5' step still gets some benefit. Tiny creature is at a disadvantage. Full Attack is possible. At the end, only one creature in a square.
PS- I know there is no facing in normal games, but the idea of it brought up my questions, also, there are some variable rules for it (which I don't know). That is why I said I need leeway for my post.
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
It looks like we now have two FAQ topics here:
1) When a large creature uses a regular move to move to a square adjacent to a creature with 10foot reach do they provoke an AOO.
IF Yes: they are moving thus provoke an AOO.
IF No: They never leave the threatened 5 foot square in question thus do not provoke an AOO.
Example:
321TT
321TT
Troll has 10foot reach, Aurochs is in squares 2 and 3. Aurochs moves to squares 1 and 2. AOO yes or no?
2a) Can a Tiny creature end its movement in a small or medium creatures' space?
IF Yes: Tiny creature can make attacks normally.
IF No: Tiny creature is barred from making a standard or full attack action unless it has the ability to enter and leave the small/medium creatures space in one round.
2b) In the case of a creature with reach does the Tiny or smaller creature provoke one or two attacks of opportunity? One for approaching and one for entering the square?
YES: This seems to violate the rule on p180 of the core rulebook that states that movement can only provoke one AOO.
NO: ok
Example:
21TT
A Reduced Halfling is in square 2, moves to square 1 (AOO #1) and then into Trolls square (AOO #2?).
2c) In the case of a 5foot step does the Tiny or smaller creature still provoke an AOO for entering another creature's square?
Am I missing anything? - Gauss
Looks like that pretty much sums up the discussions.
Can a tiny creature fit in a medium creature's square? Is that not only two steps in size difference?
Ravingdork, that is part of the problem.
CR page193:
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Next section:
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.
Section one indicates that tiny and smaller can move into or through while section two then indicates a restriction that may or may not apply to section one. Hence the question. My personal take is that section 2 is geared towards 'everything else'.
- Gauss
Edit: An interesting note is that section two does not allow you to stop in a space occupied by a creature 3 sizes larger than yourself (through, not into).
First some rules: "Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so."
Tiny can move into or through occupied squares. Doing so provokes an AoO.
"Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy."
This re-iterates that they provoke an AoO to move into the square of another creature. They must be in that square to attack. A 5-foot step would prevent the AoO as 5-foot steps never provoke.
Tarantula, the question is not about their reach. It is about the movement and whether they can stop in a small or medium creatures square. See the section immediately following the one you quoted.
- Gauss
Edit: Additionally, the 5foot step might not prevent the AOO since it is a special restriction on entering the square not the standard restriction. While I agree that it should bypass the restriction the rules are vague in some peoples opinions.
Yes Gauss, but as most people state, specific overrides general. "Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller" is less specific than "A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature".
Lastly, 5-foot step states, "Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."
Like I said Tarantula, I agree with you. But throughout this thread enough people have been unsure about this that it remains a question for people and might deserve a FAQ or response from a developer. - Gauss
So you think a tiny creature entering a medium creature's square (if that is even possible) would provoke twice from someone with Combat Reflexes, one for leaving the threatened space, and once more for entering an occupied space? Ouch.
I like to think that, that is just a reminder, not an additional penalty.
The AoO provoked is for leaving the square, not for entering. My bad. I agree, it is just re-iterating that the movement into/through an occupied square by a tiny/fine/diminutive creature still provokes for leaving threatened squares.
I do not think this Ravingdork, but others have (see posts on previous page). I was providing a summary of the entire thread as I saw it so that when/if the devs check this thread there is a short version of the issues.
- Gauss
First, gauss thanks for the summary, it does a good job reiterating the points made.
The AoO provoked is for leaving the square, not for entering. My bad. I agree, it is just re-iterating that the movement into/through an occupied square by a tiny/fine/diminutive creature still provokes for leaving threatened squares.
Tarantula, you've done a good job citing rules, but not examining what you're citing. Creatures with a 0 foot reach must enter someones square to attack them. The rules are clear that in this instance the act of entering the square (not leaving a threatened area) is what provokes this AoO. This seems to be a special type of AoO that is different from an AoO that is provoked by movement, thus the 5 foot step would not factor in here.
@RD: the question is not whether a creature that is tiny can enter the square of a medium creature, but if that creature can remain there after completing a move action ie is that a legal or illegal space to end their move. I am on the side of illegal, due to tue spatial breakdowns in the combat chapter - while a diminutive creature would be fine.
So, in my reasoning, the only way for a creature with 0 ft reach to make a melee attack is that the entering the square must be tied to the attack. Each attack would have the creature enter the square, provoke the special instance AoO and then return the character to their original square.
Each melee attack would only provoke one AoO from a character with combat reflexes because the tiny character's movement is tied to the attack and not to an actual mechanical form of movement (like a move action).
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So, in my reasoning, the only way for a creature with 0 ft reach to make a melee attack is that the entering the square must be tied to the attack. Each attack would have the creature enter the square, provoke the special instance AoO and then return the character to their original square.
Each melee attack would only provoke one AoO from a character with combat reflexes because the tiny character's movement is tied to the attack and not to an actual mechanical form of movement (like a move action).
For the opposing viewpoint: I think that inventing a whole new class of action - an attack which includes a move both before and after the attack itself - is over-complicating things beyond reason.
Saying that the rules allow a tiny creature to remain in the same square as an opponent with whom it is involved in melee combat (which is at least a plausible reading of the much-quoted RAW combat rules) doesn't require any new mechanism, doesn't add complicated followup rulings about just how far this additional forced movement can push the character, and doesn't require a form of armed melee combat which provokes an attack of opportunity on every round (which just about negates any form of melee combat as a viable option for creatures with 0 reach).
I understand your reasoning, and that reading the RAW to support it is also at least plausible. I just can't accept that it is RAI. Let's see if we get clarification at some future point.
Stynkk, a 5-foot step says explicitly that it cannot provoke AoO.
"Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity."
There are 2 rules that discuss creatures remaining in the same space as another creature. The 3 size difference rule and the tiny/fine/diminutive rule. 3 size difference says if the 2 creatures are at least 3 sizes apart, they can be in the same space. Tiny/fine/diminutive says that they can remain in the square of any other creature.
"Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.
Designated Exceptions: Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Acrobatics skill or similar special abilities."
"Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy."
There are two sections which state that tiny, diminutive and fine creatures can and must enter another creatures square to attack in. Additionally there is this sentence: "You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally." If the creature can't end its movement in your square, then this sentence is completely irrelevant and unneeded.
On the issue of whether tiny creatures provoke twice, I believe they explicitly stated it that way so that anyone gets one attack of opportunity on a tiny creature entering their square, regardless of whether the creature is already inside of their reach. From what I can tell, it's still a movement, so if they do this as part of a move action, they can only provoke once. It does however, prevent them from using 5 foot steps to avoid an attack of opportunity while entering your square.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
Also consider the feat Monkey Shine. It allows you to enter an opponent's square, so maybe it will shed some light on the situation.
As for the large creatures with differing reach issue, don't you resolve it the same way as cover? You as the attacker get to cherry pick a 5 foot section of the creature for determining whether they provoke. If that section of creature leaves a threatened square, it provokes.
Just a note:
"Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures."
The above quoted text oes not actually allow you to STAY in that square. I realize it is a literal reading of the rules but moving through is not the same thing as moving into.
Of course, in my games I would allow you to stay in that square since I figure that is the RAI but for the purposes of needing an official statement this is one more point of confusion.
- Gauss
Regarding Monkey Shine: even if the ruling is as we all think the RAI is (ie: tiny and smaller can enter and stay, 3sizes difference can enter and stay) that still allows Monkey Shine to do something. Namely, it covers the remaining (and majority) of cases.
- Gauss
Gauss. That is completely correct. Large creatures can move through squares of smaller creatures, but cannot stop in them. Anything over fine/diminutive/tiny cannot share a square with something else. (Barring exceptions like monkey shine).
"A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square."
"Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself."
On the issue of whether tiny creatures provoke twice, I believe they explicitly stated it that way so that anyone gets one attack of opportunity on a tiny creature entering their square, regardless of whether the creature is already inside of their reach. From what I can tell, it's still a movement, so if they do this as part of a move action, they can only provoke once. It does however, prevent them from using 5 foot steps to avoid an attack of opportunity while entering your square.
If this was the case, then tiny creatures would never be able to full attack.
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I'd like to offer some examples of why I feel that Yes, the movement in question does Provoke an AoO.
A Large creature is occupying four squares. If any one of those squares triggers something, the creature in general does. Consider this: If the Aurochs puts only one of its squares in a square of Lava, does it take Fire damage? Almost certainly.
If just one of its squares moves through Difficult Terrain, does it begin paying extra Movement costs? I've always seen it played that way, it's one of the more significant downsides of being Large or bigger than that.
If just one square of the Aurochs leaves a threatened area in this fashion, I would thus think it provokes. You don't have to have every square of a creature invoke a rule, any part of it would likely count.
Edit: It's possible I've been ninja'ed on this. Several new posts since I last saw the thread. If so, my apologies.
This is an interesting take on it. It makes sense. Typically larger creatures have the same reach so this never comes up.
I certainly think as RAW stands, Inconvenience has it right.
Please: Let's have a look at the spirit of the rule, not the letters of it. Yes, I know.. advanced thought, but that is actually how laws and rules are read and interpreted (at least inEurope and.. alas in international law) . Not by semantic sophistry, but by logic and deduction of intent.
Moving out of a square. The part (let's call it the "bow" )of the large creature that occupies the 10' square at first is then moved into the 5' distance square. It (the "bow" ) is now out of the 10' square, triggering an AoO, even if another part of the creature has entered that sqaure.
Celestial Pegasus, while I agree with your lava concept the problem is the Aurochs is NOT leaving a threatened square. It continues to occupy the threatened square while still moving. Hence the problem.
vikingson: this is how I feel it should work too. And apparently it is how most people run it but that still doesn't make it RAW. Hence the need for a FAQ. The spirit of the rule (RAI) often makes more sense than RAW does but that doesn't mean it applies. Especially in games like PFS that cannot follow RAI.
Axl: interesting point. By RAW, no. Since the tiny creature cannot enter a gelatinous cube's space they cannot attack. However that is rediculous as the tiny creature should still be able to walk up to the point of contact and attack. Yet another example of the breakdown here and one more possible FAQ question that this thread has brought up.
- Gauss
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Since the tiny creature cannot enter a gelatinous cube's space they cannot attack. However that is rediculous as the tiny creature should still be able to walk up to the point of contact and attack. Yet another example of the breakdown here and one more possible FAQ question that this thread has brought up.
- Gauss
Actually, by RAW, the tiny creature is allowed to move into the gelatinous cube's space; it just cannot move past the cube.
While the more general 3-sizes-difference rule about moving through an occupied square applies to all combinations of creatures that satisfy those conditions, the wording about being able to move into an occupied square is in an additional rule that only applies to tiny, diminutive or fine creatures - in other words, to just those creatures with a 0 ft reach.
As noted, moving into the square would provoke. That would be the case normally, anyway; most creatures threaten their surrounding squares, so moving into their square would mean leaving a threatened square, which is one of the conditions sufficient to provoke. This still leaves the question of whether this can be avoided if the only movement is a 5 ft step, and whether movement would provoke if moving into the square of an opponent when moving from a non-threatened square.
My personal opinion is that neither of these would provoke, but that's just an opinion - I'd like to see a clarification.
JohnF: The designated exceptions section of that rule it states that any creature which fills the entire square cannot be moved through regardless of the size difference. This would be the very definition of a gelatinous cube.
Designated Exceptions: Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Acrobatics skill or similar special abilities.
However, the into statement is the one that is still under debate. It is one that I happen to agree with you on but since there is still the question regarding size difference trumping the 'into' phrasing it is a grey area.
- Gauss
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The designated exceptions section of that rule it states that any creature which fills the entire square cannot be moved through regardless of the size difference. This would be the very definition of a gelatinous cube.
That's why I specifically mentioned that the tiny creature couldn't move past the cube (which is the actual wording used in the rules).
But, as you noted, there has to be some way for a creature with 0' reach to attack something like a gelatinous cube. That rather suggests that it should be possible to move at least partially into the square of the cube; a limitation that you could only leave the square by retracing your steps wouldn't contradict anything in the RAW. Of course there's currently no such limitation in the RAW, but I'd rule that way in any game I ran.
JohnF, that is the basic question: can a tiny creature enter and stay in a square occupied by a small or medium creature? Can any creature enter and stay in a square of a creature 3 sizes larger or smaller (they can only move through by RAW)? If tiny or smaller can enter and stay in a square occupied by another creature then how do they enter, stay, and attack a creature such as the gelatinous cube.
I realize this is all RAW nitpicking. But this problem was not brought up by me. I personally believe that the RAI is that yes, tiny and smaller creatures can enter and stay in a square occupied by another creature. Yes, a creature of any size can enter and stay in a square occupied by a creature 3 or more sizes larger or smaller. And yes, even against a space filling creature such as a gelatinous cube somehow a creature with a reach of zero should be able to attack it.
- Gauss