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So a question to all of you pathfinders who know the rules far better than I. When you hear "gestalt" what builds come to mind that are game-breakingly powerful? Assume 25 points.
For me, the best I can think of (and it shows how limited my imagination is) a half-orc invulnerable rager / warpriest.
Str (18) Dex (14) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (14) Cha (10)
Fate's favored, sacred tattoos. Divine favor.
Warpriests struggle due to d8 hit dice, 3/4 BaB and 2 skill points per level. The invulnerable rager gives them d12 hit dice, full BaB and 4 skill points per level, as well as rage / damage resistance / movement speed. In return, the warpriest gives blessing and swift action self buffs.
So at lvl 2 with raging, power attack and a masterwork falchion, a breastplate, and assuming blessing of war for +1 AC:
To Hit: +10
Damage: 2d4 + 14 (18-20 crit)
AC: 17 - DR/1 - HP 27
Fort (+9) Ref (+2) Will (+8)
Looks cool to me...but I'm certain that there is a whole heck of alot better out there. So when it comes to gestalt, what can you do?
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Oracle of Life/ Paladin
I've only played gestalt once, but I was a halfling fighter/rogue who dual-wielded daggers to great effect. Mind you, I had plenty of flanking partners so I was TWF with sneak attacks very, very reliably. He could put out a lot of damage.
I would like to see an oracle of life/paladin, too, as Malefactor suggested, but oracles weren't available when we played that game.
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Empyreal bloodline Sorcerer / Monk.
Each class covers the weakness of the other, and pump that Wisdom.
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Destined Bloodrager/Lame cursed Spirit Guide Oracle of battle. Fate's Favored in the mix. The only thing is the bad Ref save but destined luck bonus is a great fix for that. I made one at 16th lvl just recently (unfortunately only for theoretical purposes).
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Paladin + any charisma benefitting class is extremely potent.
Oradin
Palabuckler
Bardin
Palaorcerer
Gunslingdin
As you can see even the crazy names you come up with are potent.
Ah I see what is meant by paladin.
Hmm...enlightened paladin/scaled fist monk.
Cha for saves and AC. Plus those sweet vanilla monk saves.
Damn...
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Invulnerable rager barbarian/Metamorph Alchemist. It seems like the ultimate martial. DR/- half your level, innate crit resist, access to shapeshifting to overcome common physical obstacles. The metamorph can already be built to essentially "do away" with 15 damage per round, stacking d12 hit dice and damage reduction enhances that a lot. Plus by level 12 with rage/mutagen/shapechange you're adding like +18 to strength and either 4 to dex 8 to con, or 12 to con.
Well it might be dirty, so let me be damned if it is. I'm running a Svirfneblin zen-archer/ninja.
I've played a bit of Gestalt, and my favorite build I've donw so far was a Wyveran Divine Huntsman/Rogue W/ a Deinonychus. They both took precise strike, and on top of that I had the juicy bits from Inq. Oh what a magically horrendous, yet fun time that was.
EDIT: I would dual wield keen kukris, so crit fishing all the way man. XP
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Summoner / Bard. Who needs a group when you are your own party!
I've been thinking about an Avenger Vigilante/ Kineticist. I'm not sure it would work with regular multi-class, but it would have to be pretty good as a gestalt.
goliath druid/brawler... with outslug style.
Or "I am punching you from the next town over".
Add another Sorcerer Paladin to the pile.
Love those things.
Or a Druid Monk.
I'm kinda curious how an alchemist Wizard would work...
Sounds pretty fun to be honest. You could go Save or Suck route and cognatogens
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Urban Invulnerable Rager Barbarian/Fighter (archer)
Because spell sunder on a bow just makes me laugh for reasons I can't quite place.
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Wizard/Sniper Slayer
D10 HD, all good saves, full Bab, 9th Wiz casting. 6+ High Int skills and almost everything in class. Your chassis is the best possible. Disregard Armour and just be handy with a bow at first, cast buffs and Gravity Bow. You use Wiz stats boosting Int and Dex. Even in gestalt action economy is a thing and at higher levels your Wiz spells will take all your time anyway.
Combine with a full Bab prc on Slayer side for extra abilities - I used this mixed with Lantern Bearer for some fun SLAs and took the PC to 18th level. Tough game at the end - rooms full of Shuggoths and the like.
I'm kinda curious how an alchemist Wizard would work...
Pretty much like a wizard, but with a set of spontaneous pseudo spells (because many of the bomb infusions are just 'this works like so and so spell now).
So the wizard can actually shift their blasting and battlefield control stuff to the bombs. And extracts cover buffs.... so the wizard would be doing a bunch of summoning and SoS stuff with the extra room?
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A destined steel blooded bloodrager/ warpriest. The most protected warrior of luck ever. Scaling luck bonus to saves, armor class, attack rolls, and damage. Have access to all the good low level spells arcane and divine. Full bab and caster level, swift action buffing, and no spell failure in full plate. Rage...
Faster movement in full plate.
Pick up the feat mad magic and you can cast all your spells in a rage. Pick up the trait fates favored all your luck bonuses go up by one.
Storywise worship a war God and rage makes sense.
You are a holy/unholy advenger of your diety. Stat wise a wis 16 cha 14 allows you to cast all your spells.
Plus you get enough feats to make almost any combat style viable.
Any weapon can be viable in your hands with the sacred weapon bonus.
If you can vmc too go magus for a very powerful magical warrior.
There's a lot of really good ones, but my favorite in concept and how seamlessly it works is this guy, Tk-Chthik the Thrikreen Aegis/Psion (Transmogrifier) that wet into the Metamorph class.
The ultimate adaptable warrior, changing size and shape on a whim, grabbing immunities and resistances, large debuffs, different move speeds and much much more as the situation requires.
He's not really the best at anything (except possibly sheer survivability, cockroach style), but good at everything.
Since Paladin/Life Oracle has already been mentioned, how about a Paladin/Sorcerer-Dragon Disciple with the new feat that allows you to regain missing PrC spell advancement?
Should be quite the terror.
psionicist/wizard
I really dig the Zen Archer Inquisitor.
I also enjoy a straight up Two-weapon Warrior Fighter URogue.
Alternating back-and-forth Unarmed Fighter/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight.
I'm right now playing a Telekineticist/Rogue (Phantom Thief). He's a LOT of fun.
I made a Druid/Geokineticist. Once they can change into elementals they can do some interesting things with their powers (there's something about a burrowing air elemental or a flying water elemental that amuses me).
My first character in our current gestalt game was a Master Summoner/Skald. I realized (and had discussed with the GM) that the character could end up overwhelming everyone, so I played the character as more restrained (wouldn't clutter the battlefield with too many summoned critters at once). I wanted to play them as more of a support character, but no one wanted to accept the ragesong (too many casters and people who relied on skills or their own rage abilities), and I had to basically restrain from using my strongest abilities, so it just ended up being frustrating.
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Empyreal bloodline Sorcerer / Monk.
Each class covers the weakness of the other, and pump that Wisdom.
Or Scaled Fist Monk // Sorcerer, if you prefer your magical martial artists charisma-flavoured. Or want to take a more potent bloodline like Arcane, or Orc if you prefer to pound face.
So the wizard can actually shift their blasting and battlefield control stuff to the bombs. And extracts cover buffs.... so the wizard would be doing a bunch of summoning and SoS stuff with the extra room?
You'd need group buffs like Haste on the wizard side as well, since extracts only affect the drinker.
So the wizard can actually shift their blasting and battlefield control stuff to the bombs. And extracts cover buffs.... so the wizard would be doing a bunch of summoning and SoS stuff with the extra room?You'd need group buffs like Haste on the wizard side as well, since extracts only affect the drinker.
Yes, but you can literally hand over your buffs as infusions.
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And that Wiz/Alchemist still doesn't have D10 HD, or full Bab. It's better than some ideas in this thread because it does have all 3 good saves and big skills and 9th level casting.
It doesn't get two Quickens a round to cast several infusions and spells, and that is the difficulty with more than one caster class at later levels. I guess if you only use buffs on the Alchemist side it'll be quite effective.
I cannot recommend a pet class for gestalt. Pets are weaker than PCs anyway and with the hordes of enemies in gestalt games they get torn to shreds.
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Scaled Fist Unchained Monk/Draconic Sorcerer. All the Dragon! Seriously though, excellent BAB, 9th-level arcane spellcasting, 3 Good saves, no need to worry about armor... You've got it good.
Alternatively, Unchained Monk/Ecclesitheurge Cleric of Irori. Same points as above, but with divine spellcasting.
Been having fun with a few gestalts:
Divine Hunter//Warpriest of Gorum (Iron Gods);
Inspired Blade Swashbuckler//Inquisitor of Osiris (Mummy's Mask);
Inspired Blade Swashbuckler//Investigator (Kingmaker);
Necro bloodline Sorcerer//Oracle of Bones;
Next up is a Tempered Champion Paladin//Dervish of Dawn Bard of Sarenrae;
Deep Marshal Magus//Stonelord Paladin of Torag;
The most destructive one I've seen in play so far is an arcane archer magus//zen archer monk.
Bladebound Kensai/Wizard
9 level caster that can fight on the front lines.
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And that Wiz/Alchemist still doesn't have D10 HD, or full Bab. It's better than some ideas in this thread because it does have all 3 good saves and big skills and 9th level casting.
It doesn't get two Quickens a round to cast several infusions and spells, and that is the difficulty with more than one caster class at later levels. I guess if you only use buffs on the Alchemist side it'll be quite effective.
Wiz/Alchemist actually overcomes its action limit by handing things over to others. So its extracts are used, even if it just uses wizard spells and bombs.
By handing out everything as infusions, you can even make a friend's martial/martial idea not seem like gestalt blasphemy (since many react negatively when you don't aim to be a gish in gestalt). They have spells. Someone else's spells, but spells nonetheless.
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Yes, but you can literally hand over your buffs as infusions.So the wizard can actually shift their blasting and battlefield control stuff to the bombs. And extracts cover buffs.... so the wizard would be doing a bunch of summoning and SoS stuff with the extra room?You'd need group buffs like Haste on the wizard side as well, since extracts only affect the drinker.
Yes, but if you give the bard//fighter an infusion of Haste it will only affect the bard//fighter. Whereas if you cast Haste as a wizard, it also affects the monk//cleric and the ranger//rogue. More efficient. So group buffs as a wizard, and individual buffs (especially personal range buffs) as an alchemist.
And that Wiz/Alchemist still doesn't have D10 HD, or full Bab. It's better than some ideas in this thread because it does have all 3 good saves and big skills and 9th level casting.
It doesn't get two Quickens a round to cast several infusions and spells, and that is the difficulty with more than one caster class at later levels. I guess if you only use buffs on the Alchemist side it'll be quite effective.
I always recommend the Mindchemist archetype for the alchemist//wizard since then you get a potent long-duration Int booster that affects wizard as well as alchemist abilities. It actually adds raw power to a gestalt wizard in addition to versatility and durability.
Full BAB is ideal, but I don't think it's necessary for a casting-heavy gestalt.
Builds I have..
The Scorpion
Kalastar Gunslinger | Mutagenic Fighter
At level 7 take vestigial arm, and then extra discovery so you have six arms in total. The tail can be whatever.
The Cannon Guy
??? Packmule Fighter | Siege Master Gunslinger
With Packmule you rapidly increase your str bonus for carrying things. Combined with already high str, masterwork backpack, muleback cords and heavy load belt, any you can pick up a cannon and beat the crap out of someone with it as an improvised melee weapon.
The Phantom Thief
Kitsune Phantom Thief Rogue | Warlock Vigilante VMC Magus
This works best if you can convince your GM to let you have a KI Pool talent. You take Unlock Ki at level 10. Between the VMC Magus and Unlocked Ki Pool, you now have Level-1+2xInt in Ki Arcana Pool which could buff any weapon you want, and could use forgotten trick to become prof with that weapon or provide other single use Ninja Talent tricks.
Dragon Baller
Human Martial Art Monk | Aether Kineticist
You too can fly around and blast lasers from your hands, Kamehame!
The Mind Ravager
Kitsune Mesmerist | Psychic Sorcerer
Your spells now effect just about anything you want with the stare ability from Mesmerist, and you have a crazy boost to enchantment spells from Kitsune.
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I like the clean and simple monk//cleric. Great saves, level 9 caster, and Wis to AC is straight groovy with that being your main stat.
I've never been fortunate enough to be able to play a gestalt build, and I didn't make THIS one, but it's definitely my favorite so far.
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I think Wizard/Investigator could be a pretty fun combo too.
Honestly i kind of feel like the 3/4 bab, 2/3 casters as one of the two classes in a gestalt tend to make a more powerful combo than martial/martial caster/caster or even martial/caster most of the time. They just seem to have more class abilities that synergize and make the caster/martial side of the gestalt shine even more. It feels like caster/caster just generally gives you a longer adventuring day, martial/martial makes you do a bit more damage and martial/caster works at cross purposes due to a lack of, or even anti-synergy between the classes.
I have always been fond of the kung fu panda (druid-monk) gestalt. It's not as over-the-top powerful as some of the other combinations proposed on this thread (the druid is rather mediocre as far as 9 level casters go), but it makes up for that lack in sheer versatility. And it's just FUN to be grappling and trip-locking eight people at once in the form of a giant octopus throughout a forty-foot radius.
Druid-brawler might work, too (although you lose one of the most synergistic features, druid Wisdom to monk AC). I've not tried that combination out.
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I think Wizard/Investigator could be a pretty fun combo too.
Honestly i kind of feel like the 3/4 bab, 2/3 casters as one of the two classes in a gestalt tend to make a more powerful combo than martial/martial caster/caster or even martial/caster most of the time. They just seem to have more class abilities that synergize and make the caster/martial side of the gestalt shine even more. It feels like caster/caster just generally gives you a longer adventuring day, martial/martial makes you do a bit more damage and martial/caster works at cross purposes due to a lack of, or even anti-synergy between the classes.
I've never really thought of it that way, Ill have to try. In the past, when I multi-class (gestalt, or otherwise), I've always looked at BAB and saving throws mostly. I also look at which class uses which attribute. The Avenger/Kineticist combo I mentioned for instance uses con for casting. It's also great for martial characters to have a high con. The vigilante is one of the very few martial types to have a good will save. Which is good, because the kineticist has a poor will save. Your BAB would get the boost because of avenger, so that's nice, but I guess you could end up with a kineticist who has better saves, and attacks, but really is only basically a kineticist.
I did forget to mention skills. I do factor that in too. I like to play characters with lots of class skills/skill points.
A wizard/investigator does sound like fun btw.
Wizard empiricist investigator is not optimal from a save/BAB perspective. But between the alchemy and inspiration you can get yourself optimal. Transmutation is a strong school for this option if you want to focus on polymorph. But conjuration (teleportation) is probably the nicest for this combo. Extra teleport movement from shift, carry a reach weapon, enough dex for combat reflexes. Summon flanking buddies
Can be party face, knowledge repository, and just max out almost all skills. Lots of creative uses for a empiriwizard.
It really depends on if you're wedded to iteratives or not. The math of studied combat gives you a full BAB equivalent initial attack basically. If you go a natural attack/polymorph route with it you dont even notice the fewer iteratives.
I will say this. Ive played an empiricist from 4 to 15 so far, and around about level 10, if you take the inspiration expanding talents skill checks became pretty meaningless, in that if you have a chance to fail the rest of the party probably needs 19's or so to succeed kind of situation.
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how about a Paladin/Sorcerer-Dragon Disciple with the new feat that allows you to regain missing PrC spell advancement?
THE WHAT NOW?
THE WHAT NOW?how about a Paladin/Sorcerer-Dragon Disciple with the new feat that allows you to regain missing PrC spell advancement?
I think he's refering to the 3.5 Practiced Spellcaster feat... there's a trait that does the same but watered down in PF too, but I wouldn't know because it must be in a book I don't own.