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I really like this archetype.
You only get vigilante talents at 2nd, 6th, 12th, 18th, and 20th, and many talents are restricted since you lack a vigilante specialization.
Unlike the 3.5 warlock, most of your abilities are not at-will, and mystic bolts scale like garbage (1d6+1/4th class level) compared to the old-school eldritch blast.(1d6 per 2 levels).
Mystic bolts don't require a concentration check to cast and don't have to worry about spell resistance, but I can't think of any feats or items or spells that enhance it at range (other than obvious things, like Point-Blank Shot). But for getting more out of it, Deadly Aim doesn't apply to touch attacks, haste grants an extra attack with natural and manufactured weapons (mystic bolt is neither).
Though it is (Su) and doesn't provoke, the ranged attack you make does provoke, unless you have, say, Point-Blank Master (mystic bolt). That doesn't work because you need Weapon Specialization (mystic bolt).
Without a way to add extra damage to the die, your attack will suck, and remember, you sacrificed a full BAB or a sneak attack clone.
How do you build one of these things? Gaaah!
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From a discussion on another thread, a conductive weapon might be a good way to make use of a mystic bolt. They can be melee or ranged so could work with either type of conductive weapon, which also negates your concern about AoOs - just make a melee touch attack if you're using the mystic bolt alone.
Arcane Striker is a talent you want by 12th level, Elemental Armor is one you want early, and I'd probably get one of their other warlock-only talents as the 3rd you get by 12th level. Familiar most likely tho' Tattoo Chamber and Social Simulacrum could be fun.
They get the full sorc/wiz list so I'd look for spells to use in melee which maguses don't get (e.g. Call the Void, Whip of Spiders, Calcific Touch) and play it as a different kind of gish - no spell combat but a wider and wierder variety of spells.
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I'd probably start with the guide to them myself. 1p, the mystic bolts aren't anything you can really focus on into the mid game, but with the 3p support listed in the guide, you can make a real go of making the mystic bolt work.
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the attack is a ranged touch or a touch attack so in does not provoke.ranged touch attack still provoke cuz they are still ranged attacks
I think he's trying to say that the Mystic Bolt can be used as a melee touch attack which, as a melee attack, wouldn't provoke. However he's neglecting to think of a scenario in which the Vigilante in question is using a ranged Mystic Bolt against someone distant while having a separate adjacent opponent, which would provoke as normal.
To the OP I would say that the Mystic Bolts are really just something for low level play, High level Warlock Vigilante's can become really good thrown weapon characters (or at least very efficient ones) due to combining the Arcane Striker talent with the Returning Weapon Talent.
At 14th level Returning Weapon Talent will add all the magic properties of the first thrown weapon in a round to every subsequent non-magic weapon of the same type thrown in that round. Since it also adds returning they all come back to you, depending on how many spare mundane ones you have you only need to catch the magic one. Arcane Striker can add good magic properties. So you can get around the major deficiency of the thrower by having just one powerful weapon but then getting those properties added to all. At 16th you can add the alignment properties like Holy or Axiomatic. Then you just build the vigilante like any other ranged thrower. It's a decent build and at lower levels when those abilities haven't clicked in yet you can fall back on Mystic Bolts if you need to.
Personally though if you want to stick to a magical blaster like the 3.5 warlock I think the Kineticist is a better simulation of it.
kenetisits give you more of a headache trying to figure out than a wizard most of the 3rd party sources out there for it are alot easyer to understand for both the player and the gm than the kenetisit.
Personally though if you want to stick to a magical blaster like the 3.5 warlock I think the Kineticist is a better simulation of it.
Really? I think Kineticists are very straight forward. They have a few damaging blasts, abilities that alter how those blasts can be wielded (warlocks had something like those iirc), and then a small grab bag of utility (something warlocks also had)
Basically they just shoot things and that's what the 3.5 Warlock did, every once in a while it did something weird like turn into a swarm of bats and fly away but it mostly just Arcane Blasted. Kineticists mostly just use their flavored blast.
Theme seems to be the real difference.
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Mystic bolts aren't meant to be the main focus/draw for this class. They are meant as the bloodline blasts that sorcerer gets or the domain blasts that clerics get.
Sure you can focus in on them and get them to work out okay. But the main features is having a vigilante that can cast wizard spells.
I think he means kineticists have more fiddly bits than warlocks who just blasted and picked a pair of riders as needed. Kines have to calculate burn, burn costs and the various mitigation talents, elemental overflow (which also generally fiddles with your hp total) and if you aren't just going full overflow at the start of the day, it can result in you having to recalc your entire sheet mid fight which is never fun.
Honestly, if table etiquette and general circumstances allow it, I would strongly recommend using a spreadsheet as a character sheet for kineticists. That way you can just type a number in the "burn" field and everything updates automatically.
Honestly though, for at least 3 of the elements (really good ones!) you should be topping off overflow right after breakfast anyway.
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I drew circles on a piece of paper.
This circle is my infusion mastery: 0 0 0
This circle is my gather energy: 0 0 0 0 0
These are my Infusions:
X
X
X
O
O
O
(You can only pick one X and one O in any blast)
These are my Metakinetics and my Composite Blast:
Y
Y
Y
Y
I always have 3 to spend on my XO powers. I must gather energy or deal with burn to use my Y powers.
I gather energy as a move action to put up a maximized earth wall. Everything inside the wall when it is cast takes 16 points of damage; anything passing through the wall takes 33 points of damage. There is no save, there is no attack roll. I may now start blasting things with entangling sand-blasts for 12d6+30 damage.
I wrote the little worksheet on the back of my notes in pen and never looked back. It's really quite easy to keep track of as long as you start with a low powered K and move up to a high powered K.
I've been playing my sand-bender since level 1 in Mummy's Mask and we've just recently capped 12. Striketroller FTW. (Plus damage reduction, flight, and earth meld.)
I used color-coded index cards with my Kineticist (denoting either Blasts, Utility, Form Infusions, Substance Infusions, or Burn).
Burn cards were white, and I had all the adjustments associated with each number of Burn on a separate card (XX Nonlethal damage, XX% chance to ignore crits/SA, +X to hit, +XX to damage, +X Size bonus to 2 physical abilities). It was a pretty simple to just glance at the current Burn card and adjust my attack/damage rolls on the fly.
Bringing this back to Warlocks, the Kineticist DOES seem like a re-themed 3.5 Warlock. The Dark Elementalist archetype from Horror Adventures feels a bit more Warlock-ee; he can't accept more than 3 Burn, but he can use nearby souls to take the Burn for him (iirc). Unfortunately, it HAS to have an Evil alignment...
I've been playing my sand-bender since level 1 in Mummy's Mask and we've just recently capped 12. Striketroller FTW. (Plus damage reduction, flight, and earth meld.)
Gaara is that you?
The best way to understand the Kineticist is to play it from level 1. The class is a bear to comprehend if you try to figure out a full 20 level build from the beginning, but is really simple at the low levels and builds to that.
At low levels, you have situations like-
"I have one infusion, it costs 1 burn, so I can use a move action gather energy to use it."
"Now I have both extended range and pushing infusion, each costs 1 burn so I can't power it with just a move action, but I also just got infusion specialization which reduces the cost by 1, so I can!"
Honestly, most of the time you figure out the best thing you can do at any given level without taking burn, then you do that over and over again. Later on, figure out what things you can do with burn that will come in handy in big climactic fights. It helps if your elemental defense is one that's useful to invest burn into, so you can top off your elemental overflow ASAP and not worry about it (and get something nice in return.)
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Warlocks have a lot of options, but the Mystic Bolt builds come online at 5th level, when all your ranged touch bolts resolve against touch.
Stealing the Gunslinger's or Grenadier Alchemist build's niche, TWF, Rapid Shot, PBS, and Precise Shot with the Arcane Striker talent give you somewhat consistent damage, on the turns you aren't casting spells from your amazing spell list.
Weapon Finesse is another good option, as is obtaining a Conductive Weapon that you intend to use either with the talent that treats all your thrown weapons as having the same enhancements or the Ricochet Toss feat to get said weapon back every attack.
A lot of choices.
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Warlocks have a lot of options, but the Mystic Bolt builds come online at 5th level, when all your ranged touch bolts resolve against touch.
Stealing the Gunslinger's or Grenadier Alchemist build's niche, TWF, Rapid Shot, PBS, and Precise Shot with the Arcane Striker talent give you somewhat consistent damage, on the turns you aren't casting spells from your amazing spell list.
Weapon Finesse is another good option, as is obtaining a Conductive Weapon that you intend to use either with the talent that treats all your thrown weapons as having the same enhancements or the Ricochet Toss feat to get said weapon back every attack.
A lot of choices.
None of those choices do anything to stop resist 5 from completely negating mystic bolts.
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None of those choices do anything to stop resist 5 from completely negating mystic bolts.Warlocks have a lot of options, but the Mystic Bolt builds come online at 5th level, when all your ranged touch bolts resolve against touch.
Stealing the Gunslinger's or Grenadier Alchemist build's niche, TWF, Rapid Shot, PBS, and Precise Shot with the Arcane Striker talent give you somewhat consistent damage, on the turns you aren't casting spells from your amazing spell list.
Weapon Finesse is another good option, as is obtaining a Conductive Weapon that you intend to use either with the talent that treats all your thrown weapons as having the same enhancements or the Ricochet Toss feat to get said weapon back every attack.
A lot of choices.
Okay? You still have spells and weapons available, and I'm pretty sure you get more energy types.
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Okay? You still have spells and weapons available, and I'm pretty sure you get more energy types.
No one said you didn't; you were talking about all the options to make mystic bolts better, but still ignored the initial problem that was brought up, which is that they have no way to penetrate energy resistance.
Sure, you get additional types, but the further you go through the game, the more things have multiple types of energy resistance, it's not common. Here's a list of resistances by subtype:
Immunity to electricity and poison.
Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10.
Aeons
Immunity to cold, poison, and critical hits.
Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
Agathion
Immunity to electricity and petrification.
Resistance to cold 10 and sonic 10.
Angel (Rare I know, but still)
Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification.
Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
Asura
Immunity to curses, disease, and poison.
Resistance to acid 10 and electricity 10.
Azata
Immunity to electricity and petrification.
Resistance to cold 10 and fire 10.
Daemon
Immunity to acid, death effects, disease, and poison.
Resistance to cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
Demodand
Immunity to acid and poison.
Resistance to fire 10 and cold 10.
Devil
Immunity to fire and poison.
Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
Div
Immunity to fire and poison.
Resistance to acid 10 and electricity 10.
Kami
Resist acid 10, electricity 10, fire 10
Protean
Immunity to acid.
Resistance to electricity 10 and sonic 10.
Psychopomp
Resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10.
Qlippoth
Immunity to cold, mind-affecting effects, and poison.
Resistance to acid 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
That's just subtypes, and each and every one of them shuts down 2-3 different elements. This doesn't count the random resistances that get thrown around too (god help you if you fight a suli). Sure, wizard casting is awesome, no one's denying that, but mystic bolts are jank (in 1p), which was the point I was trying to make, and your solution of just stacking more attacks does nothing to address this.
Fire Ray (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash an elemental ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This ray deals 1d6 points of fire damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess.
Fire Bolt (Sp): As a standard action, you can unleash a scorching bolt of divine fire from your outstretched hand. You can target any single foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack with this bolt of fire. If you hit the foe, the fire bolt deals 1d6 points of fire damage + 1 point for every two cleric levels you possess.
Mystic Bolts (Su): A mystic bolt deals 1d6 points of damage plus 1 for every 4 vigilante levels the warlock has.
Mystic bolts are the equivalent thing to the 1st level power that some bloodlines and domains grant you. Slightly less scaling for the ability to full attack and other stuff.
But the mystic bolts AREN'T like the elemental blast for kineticists, aka their main shtick, but are meant to be like the 1st level powers of other casters, something to help extend your day and give you something to do when you don't cast a spell.
Yes, you can focus down onto them and make them fairly decent as a main deal. But since that seemingly wasn't the design goal, it's not super easy to make them be a main deal.
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Fire Ray (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash an elemental ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This ray deals 1d6 points of fire damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess.
Fire Bolt (Sp): As a standard action, you can unleash a scorching bolt of divine fire from your outstretched hand. You can target any single foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack with this bolt of fire. If you hit the foe, the fire bolt deals 1d6 points of fire damage + 1 point for every two cleric levels you possess.
Mystic Bolts (Su): A mystic bolt deals 1d6 points of damage plus 1 for every 4 vigilante levels the warlock has.
Mystic bolts are the equivalent thing to the 1st level power that some bloodlines and domains grant you. Slightly less scaling for the ability to full attack and other stuff.
But the mystic bolts AREN'T like the elemental blast for kineticists, aka their main shtick, but are meant to be like the 1st level powers of other casters, something to help extend your day and give you something to do when you don't cast a spell.
Yes, you can focus down onto them and make them fairly decent as a main deal. But since that seemingly wasn't the design goal, it's not super easy to make them be a main deal.
I just find it odd that they weren't, since there's so much design space dedicated to them. The fact that they're what you trade specialization for (which is an amazing class feature) makes them seem like they should be more central to the archetype, they're given a decent amount of customization through multiple energy types, allowed to be touch attacks, and given their own vigilante talent. I think if the energy resistance issue had been dealt with for them (presumably with arcane striker), they'd be a lot more fluid, or allowing them to be used as a swift action while casting spells (my bad I didn't think of that myself sooner).
Really, this is just me hoping they get more support in later books.
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if the mystic bolts did 1d6+1 damage at level 1,3,6,9,12,15,18 levels it would be at least some what decent 7d6+7 at level 18
I have a level 18 kineticist that can spend a move and standard action to deal 1.5*(18d6+46). If you just want to blast with energy, it's likely that despite the name, the class with 6 level casting from the wizard list as well as social/vigilante talents is not the best choice since those two things are really potentially powerful.
The Warlock Vigilante has:
-Huge pile of skills (21 class skills and 4+INT/level for an INT based class)
- 2 good saves, 3/4 BAB, d8 HD
- Proficiency with all martial weapons plus the ability to cast in light armor without ASF.
- 6 Level spellcasting using one of the most versatile lists.
- up to 10 social talents and 5 vigilante talents, which are potentially extremely useful (at least as good as and generally better than comparable feats.)
- Fairly weak blasting
You pick the class because it's a jack of many trades, not because of one feature.
When we get to playing Curse of the Crimson Throne in my group, I'll post my Warlock Vigilante if he actually turns out decently.
Going a rather odd direction with it, but using Spheres of Power I can utilize some fun stuff.
I originally thought to make a Mystic Bolt focused character, but I realized that they didn't design the class to use them as a primary weapon, just as a good backup with some fun variability.
Expectation was a little off but I still find that the class is super cool so I just adjusted my mentality to a different path. Vigilante talents are usually as good as feats to start and scale to some fun stuff. Build around those and your feats and everything should pan out.
I'm about to play one in a campaign as a face and secondary damage dealer. My face side comes from combining the Orator feat and the Social Grace talent. I picked tattoo chamber for campaign specific reasons, but probably would have picked up Shield of Blades otherwise. I would recommend any type of Vigilante consider a bit of a face role, but its certainly not mandatory.
After reading the comments here I'm going to give Arcane Striker more consideration for when I hit my next Vigilante talent. Like what a lot of the people here were saying, I think that it would be best to have mystic bolt as a secondary option, for damage versatility or in case of disarmament rather than a primary tactic.
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I built a Warlock NPC for a home game a while back who used coin shot as her primary weapon and her bolts as a backup. With Rapid Shot and Two-Weapon Fighting, she was making a decent number of attacks, and Arcane Strike goes a long way for damage. Here's her level 8 attack line (with NPC stats and wealth):
gold coin +12/+7 touch or +8/+8/+8/+3 touch (1d8+7/x2)
mystic bolt +11/+6 touch or +7/+7/+7/+3 (1d6+4/x2 fire or electricity)
Kineticists are easy at low levels, and by the time they're complicated, so is everything else (or just isn't viable anymore). Since a Kineticist gets 3 elements by level 15 immunities and resistances really aren't that much of a problem (I mean, nothing is immune to piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning right?)
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So I just was looking at the warlock in another thread: Warlock Vigilante + a level of snakebite striker, Rogue or vivisectionist sounds like a decent way to go in to the AT prestige class. you can pick up the second d6 of sneak through a feat and using mystic bolts means you get a touch attack for both melee and ranged so the BAB hit doesn't matter as much.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/circling-mongoose-combat
it could be interesting to build around that feat. high dex+ acrobatics, mobility, dodge, combat expertise, fighting defensively, arcane strike, twf, maybe crane style or unhindering shield. dance around slapping for multiple d6s of sneak attack. stack as much defense as you can and go to town, you'll be taking a lot of penalties on your to hit but that shouldn't matter unless you are fighting tiny fast creatures often. At range you still do okay damage with ranged touch attacks especially with a pair of sniper goggles and some planning.
I built a Warlock NPC for a home game a while back who used coin shot as her primary weapon and her bolts as a backup. With Rapid Shot and Two-Weapon Fighting, she was making a decent number of attacks, and Arcane Strike goes a long way for damage. Here's her level 8 attack line (with NPC stats and wealth):
gold coin +12/+7 touch or +8/+8/+8/+3 touch (1d8+7/x2)
mystic bolt +11/+6 touch or +7/+7/+7/+3 (1d6+4/x2 fire or electricity)
I'm having trouble visualizing how coin shot works for the amount of attacks a warlock can make.
First, doesn't casting the spell mean you can only get one that round, specifically the one that coin shot allows you to make?
Then, one casting only gives you 3 coins, right? So wouldn't you have to spend two rounds casting coin shot, then one round full-attacking for all 4 attacks in order to actually get a full attack with coins?
It just seems kind of... awkward. But at the very least, it's an interesting way to get around resistances.
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I'm having trouble visualizing how coin shot works for the amount of attacks a warlock can make.
First, doesn't casting the spell mean you can only get one that round, specifically the one that coin shot allows you to make?
Then, one casting only gives you 3 coins, right? So wouldn't you have to spend two rounds casting coin shot, then one round full-attacking for all 4 attacks in order to actually get a full attack with coins?
It just seems kind of... awkward. But at the very least, it's an interesting way to get around resistances.
Necro-reply! The duration on coin shot is 10 minutes. The NPC, a CG crime-hunting vigilante in an evil game, would cast four or five extended coin shots before an attack, using first level pearls of power for more uses of the spell.
Necro-reply ^2!
What about using Kirin Strike with Stamina points to increase Mystic Bolts damage?
And Channel Spirit feat also to invoke a Champion, gaining +1 to hit and +3 damage to mystic bolts attacks
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Looks like I can't edit my previous post. So far I've got the following build:
Human
7/19(17+2)/14/16/10/7
Medium 1 (Channeling: Champion Spirit) / Vigilante (Warlock) X
Feats:
lvl1 Spirit Focus
lvl1 Point Blank Shot
lvl3 Precise Shot
lvl5 Rapid Shot
lvl7 Weapon Focus: Mystic Bolt
lvl9 Two-Weapon Fighting
Vigilante Talent:
vig2 Arcane Striker
(the rest your preference)
Just for a snapshot on Mystic Shot damage (since that's what we're all trying to fix here) here's what I've got:
lvl 2: +7 for 1d6+6 (vs. AC)
lvl 6: +9/+9 for 1d6+9 (vs. Touch) [lvl 4 ability point in dex, no dex belt or any other items]
lvl 9: +11/+11/+11/+6 for 1d6+10 (vs. Touch) [no dex belt or any other items]
EDIT: I've been up for nearly 24 hours so my math may be wrong, feel free to correct it! Bed time!
45ur4 those are some cool ideas.
I necro'd this thread in hopes to stir up some additional discussion on making Warlocks viable.. I'm dying to play one and am hoping people can share more ideas on getting the most out of mystic bolt & other class features.
Thanks, personally I like the route of Kirin Strike + Combat Stamina, loving the synergy of having high intelligence = lots of skills/knowledges = higher damage of kirin strike feat.
If playing a Kasatha or polymorphing into, more fun out of multiweapon fighting
dot
Ok, so the bolt gets the benefit of arcane striker AND lethal grace for the melee attacks
Lethal Grace doesn't apply to Mystic Bolts, since the Bolts don't add Strength to damage.
the light weapon is most likely to set up what penalty one takes when he duel wield them. if a touch attack don't say they add str\other ability to damage then they don't.
as for that. while going for rapid shot+twf\improved\greater two weapon fighting can net you at level 20 7 attacks the penalty and damage is somewhat not nice. not to mention what happen if you can't take full attack (like if you need to get closer to the target using a move action)
at level 20 the above build would be at 15\15\15\10\10\5\5 wit h-4 to hit and probebly (with arcane striker) at 2d6 +10 to damage per hit (1d6 +5 base, 1d6 from frost\flaming\etc +5 from striker)
so if you hit with all and no crit involved net 14d6+70 (84-154) for full attack and 2d6+10 (12-22) for standard action (if moving etc).
by giving up 4 levels into fighter and going with a different set of feats
u loose some spells (1x4th, 2x5th and 4x6th) per day but the following can be used.
feats gained at levels:
1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,16(f),17,17(f),19,20(f)
-assuming last levels are fighter, can be before ,just pick the very last 20th level to be fighter if you want to get a level of fighter earlier.
reason for level 20 fighter is to have bab 16 at level 4 fighter which let you retrain a bonus feat without worrying if gm allow special retraining rules.
feats taken: (assuming taking arcane striker and the other talents at some point)
weapon focus (mystic bolt), weapon specialization (mystic bolt), point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, vital strike, imp. vital strike, greater vital strike,devastating strike,overwatch style, overwatch tactician, overwatch vortex.
since you can ready a vital(improved\greater) strike then with the overwatch feat tree at level 20 you get to have up to 4 attacks at full bab(-2 for feat.+1 for weapon focus) with the following :
attack: +16\+16\+16\+16 (with -2 +1 for feats )
damage : 4d6+4 base +4 (striker) +1d6 (talent for flaming\acid etc) +2 weapon specialization +6 devastating strike = 5d6+16 per hit
so full round if all hit(no crit) will do 20d6+64 = 84-184 damage
and a standard action (with overwatch tactician so 2 greater vital strikes) will do 10d6+32 = 42-92 damage.
i believe the pacing of the feats allow lower but somewhat good attacks before level 20.
energy like weapons doing touch and not adding str is a long time tradition ever since 2ed flame blade. when i gm i rule that if you want to add str (or dex) to damage you need to wield it in a way that penetrate ac. so normal to hit rolls would add str. touch attacks wont.
it was asked and answered here