[Zenith Games] Undead Paragon Classes II: Ghoul, Lich & Mummy (OPEN PLAYTEST)

[Broken Zenith]

Undead Paragon Classes II: Ghoul, Lich & Mummy

Come look over Undead Paragon Classes II! Make comments both in the Google doc and in this thread (though this thread is betteR)

Undead Paragon Classes II is the sequel to Undead Paragon Classes: Skeleton, Zombie & Vampire. In addition to nine classes, Undead Paragon Classes I, II & III will provide the options for Zenith Games’ upcoming “We Be Zombies” adventure (after the success of We Be Dragons).

Paragon Ghoul
The paragon ghoul hungers for flesh: fresh is good, but rotten is better. Every profane meal fuels a dark power that burns into his vicious assaults. The paragon ghoul’s fangs and claws do not merely rend meat from bone. They corrupt their victims with sickness and pain, transforming them into easy prey.
Role: The paragon ghoul’s cannibalistic hunger shapes him into a relentless killer. He weakens and devours his prey, and feeds on their corpses to regain strength.

Paragon Lich
Paragon liches are the true masters of undeath. They wield necromantic energy like a hurricane, draining their souls in pursuit of greater power. Paragon liches are willing to sacrifice anything to multiply their power. They gladly give their own humanity to taste life immortal, and split their own soul in exchange for dominion over death.
Role: Paragon liches are powerful spellcasters who specialize in necromancy. They weaken themselves to harm others, but are capable of evading death by hiding their souls in phylacteries.

Paragon Mummy
Only the faithful are worthy of undeath. Paragon mummies are servants of the divine, twisted and returned to labor even after their demise. Priests and shamans, these ancient corpses wield the powers of their gods through broken frames. While most remain loyal to their masters, many hijack divine rituals and serve only themselves.
Role: While the multifaceted magic of a paragon mummies is useful both in and out of battle, the paragon mummy herself is more than equipped to step into the fray. She delivers curse and curse, and draws many blasphemous traits from the shambling zombie.

Take a look! Make comments! Hold nothing back!

Undead Paragon Classes II: Ghoul, Lich & Mummy

[N. Jolly]

BZ, I'm gonna be honest with you here and say that this isn't good. Like as is, it would be a low 2/5 for me, and I'm going to try to constructively say why.

The rotting racial template is bad.

That's vague, I know, but losing 10 effective stat points even with the dropping of con is BRUTAL. Imagine this on a 15 point buy, just think of the stat drop you'd have here. Some people play on a 15 point buy, and this would make them commoners, straight up.

I know that it gets a lot of benefits, but that stat cost is too much for me, and from the few other people I've shown it to, no one has thought that this was an acceptable trade. It doesn't even get the full undead immunities, making it...just not good.

Paragon Ghoul is rough

So you're giving undead burn...I hate burn. The rules are also vague; there's no limit to how much char you can take, and a lot of things that require you to take char are 2 char, making the whole "char does half burn damage" thing you've got going feel odd. And there's no benefit for taking char, at least burn had something there, this feels just straight up punishing.

Disease is also very much an NPC tool, and having it (especially this limited) doesn't really feel like something I'd want. The damage increase to how much it does doesn't really help either, as PCs rarely leave foes alive long enough to experience the effects of disease. Paralyzing Claws has some promise, but again the limited use per day unless you take char just turns me off. I'm also not a big level of waiting until 2nd level for claw attacks, but that's just me.

Sneak attack here just feels like filler; it adds little to the class and could be replaced by something more thematic. Really, nothing in the entire race would ever make me want to play one, and that's considering that I have to take a template that I dislike to do it.

Lich is okay

You stuck burn on a d6 class; that's a sin. I mean at least you're giving it some value here by giving it different things it can do as opposed to the less than enjoyable utility for ghouls. I'm not sure there's a lot of necromancy spells that deal damage via damage dice (horrid wilting?), but I at least like the utility of it here.

I also like the 'necromancy domain' spell slot, that was a pretty neat addition. Lich touch as well is on the better end of things. Lich weakness though, you're giving penalties that don't also give benefits as a part of progression? That's not a happy camper. Everything is as expected, probably the strongest of your classes here, although the dead levels make me frown hard.

Mummy is ROUGH

Holy dead levels! No domain slot either is harsh, since it feels in tune with the flavor. The mummy feels not only unfinished, but it feels as though there's nothing there. It's easily the weakest of these classes, and it just overall leaves no impact.

Closing thoughts

Personally, I'd have liked to have seen archetypes for these too, since there's a lot of ways you could take things, but as it stands now, what is here needs a LOT of work.

[My Self]

Rotting template hurts. N. Jolly summarized why it hurts well enough.

As a suggestion for Ghoul - perhaps you have an in-class way of accelerating disease to rounds instead of days or something? Also, what is with Char doing 1/2 level HP damage, when it is only used in increments of 2 until higher levels? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Char seems like an underused mechanic, and I'd very much enjoy seeing you do something special with it. A universal use of Char to throttle the action economy system or save yourself from going down would be great. Maybe also a charisma-dependent passive ability or two. Although, once you get to the capstone... your Char stops being useful for extra paralysis/disease uses, and becomes a DC booster? What?

The class seems to be built around using claws and bites with special effect riders and a side of sneak attack but there's little support for that within the class, and very few other combat options. Martial weapons, medium armor, and shields are nice to have, but they detract from any idea of a unified class design. Action economy improvers, such as the ability to strike multiple times in a round with the same claw (some sort of natural weapon two-weapon fighting), or the ability to coup de grace as a move action, would make claws nicer to use. Also, passive and defensive abilities seem rather lacking on the class. Perhaps the Ghast Stench ability would be nice? Many of the levels are functionally dead, given that they only increase uses per day of questionable, limited-use abilities.

[Broken Zenith]

I know Rotting Template is scary, so let me run the numbers for reference:

Human Antipaladin (15 pt buy):
Str:16
Dex: 12
Con:14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Rotting Human Antipaladin (15 pt buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: - (Cha 14) -
Int: 6
Wis: 8
Cha: 14
Plus: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep, and stunning, nonlethal damage, energy drain, exhaustion, fatigue. No need to breathe, eat or sleep.

Because of the Con/Cha issue, for a class that uses both (all of the undead classes) -2 to all stats really translates to something like -2 to Str, Dec, Int, and Wis (as you can see above). So you should weight -2 to 4 ability scores against that laundry list of immunities and bonuses.

Good comments! Thanks so far.

[My Self]

Perhaps the Rotting template could nix the charisma and strength penalties, but have a lower movement speed and take nonlethal damage as lethal damage? Also, spread the Disgusting trait -2 to all charisma checks with living creatures? Maybe also doubled scent radius (can be detected at 60 instead of 30). Under Languages, it seems like you might need to lose a language, given that you take an INT penalty.

At 1st level, the Lich is decent, although it seems like an Arcanist with a less interesting casting style. The number of spells seems a bit low, but I assume that's intentional. I feel like Lich would be fun if it acquired weaknesses that were actually trade-offs, much in the vein of Oracle Curses. Perhaps if you could pick up other Lich abilities, such as cold and electric immunities, DR/bludgeoning and magic, +8 perception/stealth/sense motive, and Lifesight as things you can pick up while taking Lich weaknesses. Also, it would be fun to see Demilich options show up, such as a player-balanced Devour Soul, or Telekinetic Storm. Since you use up a lot of Char, perhaps a level-based Char bank would make the d6 not matter as much. Say, if you had 1 free point of Char at 1st, then 1 more at 7th, 13th, and 19th, you could make up for having a low base amount of HP. But besides that, Lich is a solid class. Good work!

[Broken Zenith]

My Self wrote:

Perhaps the Rotting template could nix the charisma and strength penalties, but have a lower movement speed and take nonlethal damage as lethal damage? Also, spread the Disgusting trait -2 to all charisma checks with living creatures? Maybe also doubled scent radius (can be detected at 60 instead of 30). Under Languages, it seems like you might need to lose a language, given that you take an INT penalty.

Those are some fantastic ideas for the template! I'm trying not to respond to individual comments right now, but I really like those. Thanks!

[Broken Zenith]

N. Jolly wrote:

PCs rarely leave foes alive long enough to experience the effects of disease.

For reference: the onset for augmented ghoul fever is listed as immediately. There's no waiting time.

[N. Jolly]

Broken Zenith wrote:

N. Jolly wrote:

PCs rarely leave foes alive long enough to experience the effects of disease.

For reference: the onset for augmented ghoul fever is listed as immediately. There's no waiting time.

Yeah, it happens immediately, but then as far as I'm aware, you wait another day for it to damage again, and that's not considering how many things are immune/resistant to disease in the first place, let alone at later levels. Even if there was no limit on how often you could attempt to disease someone, to me it's not an attractive class feature.

Also why does only the mummy class have parent classes? I'm assuming vestigial text here. And if the mummy talent is going to reference content from other books, that content should be in a sidebar or listed elsewhere to avoid issues with only owning one book in the series, at least in my opinion.

And I can't get behind rotting template, not even a little bit. Even at a -2 to four different stats instead of five (presuming you're going point buy and can just buy con down to a -7 since it still drags you down if you have a racial penalty to it), the amount of stats lost doesn't make up for what's gained, since a lot of it is hampered offense (str/dex/int/wis) being given up for defensive buffs, and offense > defense in this game; it's just the way things work.

I think a specific undead race in addition to the template could help suit this better giving it racial traits it could take to simulate being other races rather than a template that straight up wrecks its previous race.

[Broken Zenith]

N. Jolly wrote:

And if the mummy talent is going to reference content from other books, that content should be in a sidebar or listed elsewhere to avoid issues with only owning one book in the series, at least in my opinion.

The boon that references other content states: A full list of zombie boons may be found at the end of this book.

[My Self]

Huh. What if a Ghoul could perform some sort of expedited Consume Corpse merged with a Coup de Grace? So enemies that you kill with a Coup de Grace bite are consumed (or partially consumed), and you get some fraction of your Consume Corpse bonus? Also, faster Coup de Grace and corpse consumption should be on the table. The class could use a little meat on its bones, and a paralyze->Coup de Grace support would really let the Ghoul dish out punishment. Just food for thought.

[Broken Zenith]

My Self wrote:

Huh. What if a Ghoul could perform some sort of expedited Consume Corpse merged with a Coup de Grace? So enemies that you kill with a Coup de Grace bite are consumed (or partially consumed), and you get some fraction of your Consume Corpse bonus? Also, faster Coup de Grace and corpse consumption should be on the table. The class could use a little meat on its bones, and a paralyze->Coup de Grace support would really let the Ghoul dish out punishment. Just food for thought.

Honestly, I want to stay away from making coup de grace any easier. The DC becomes unbeatable really quickly, so if I let Ghouls paralyze and Coupe de Grace in the same round then it would basically become "Make your save against paralysis or die." Which is too powerful, in my opinion.

Love the Coup de Grace -> Consume corpse. I'll definitely implement that.

[Dr Styx]

Special 1st level wrote:

Char soul, lich-like , lich touch, necromantic specialization, spell focus: necromancy

Under 1st level Special abilities, it lists lich touch but in its description says it's a 2nd level ability. Also there is no mention of what lich-like is.

[My Self]

Broken Zenith wrote:

N. Jolly wrote:

PCs rarely leave foes alive long enough to experience the effects of disease.

For reference: the onset for augmented ghoul fever is listed as immediately. There's no waiting time.

So it basically amounts to a save, or take 1d2 to 1d8 DEX and CON damage. The most comparable things to this seems to be the Ninja's Pressure Points ability, the Chill Touch spell, and Deathblade poison. Pressure Points is at will, whenever you Sneak Attack, and does 1 STR or DEX damage. Chill Touch is a 1st level spell with 1 use/level, and is a touch attack that allows a Fort save. Deathblade poison is injury poison for 1,800 gp, which deals 1d3 CON damage a round for 6 rounds, and takes 2 DC 20 Fort saves to get rid of.

Perhaps at higher levels, it counts as both a curse and a disease, and you need immunity to both to avoid contacting it, and both Remove Disease and Remove Curse (or just Heal) to remove it? Or perhaps you have regular Ghoul Fever going all the time, but you can override it with Augmented Ghoul Fever a few times a day? Perhaps even change its frequency to 1/round?

Also, other Ghoul abilities such as a Ghast's Stench (mentioned earlier), a Leng Ghoul's Rend, a Corpulent Ghoul's Create Spawn and Command Ghouls, some Rogue-ish abilities such as Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and some Channel Resistance would add to your Ghoul's toolkit.

Did you mean to use the CRB Rogue Sneak Attack, or the Unchained Rogue Sneak Attack?

[Here4daFreeSwag]

Good to have some free undead paragon classes 2 playtest stuff for the soon to be expired 2016 season. ;)

[Broken Zenith]

Undead Paragon Classes II: Ghoul, Lich & Mummy

Document updated! Highlights include:

Rotting Corpse Template now only gives a -2 penalty to three ability scores, at your choice. You also take nonlethal damage as lethal damage. I would imagine that now a rotting human/elf/anything is more powerful than a normal human/elf/anything, but I'll leave that up to you guys to decide.

More options for Ghouls: Most of the standard ghoul abilities have been folded into choosable ghoul boons. BAB is reduced to 3/4, sneak attack is upped to full, char is removed, and uses per day of fever and paralysis are increased. Additionally, you can use fever and paralysis through all of your attacks - even ranged attacks. Some other great suggestions by "my self" were implemented.

More Options for Liches: I replaced the bonus feats with rich boons, and gave a few more options there, drawing from some more classic lich and demilich powers.

Mummy is about the same: Mummy is about the same. She got a slam attack at 1st level, but besides that, not much. Zombie boons are listed in the google doc so you can see what her options are.

To give context to a few comments:

Re Dead levels: Take a look at the wizard, sorcerer, cleric, oracle, and with. Full casters have dead levels (heck, the cleric has basically 19 dead levels and the wizard has 15). Loads of spells is where the customization comes from. Dead levels on 9th level casters is pretty much the norm.

Re Mummy Power: Compare to a Cleric, one of the parent classes. You give up a domain spell slot per spell level and channeling, and gain a natural attack, 2 more skill points per level, some skill bonuses, augmented mummy rot, 6 mummy boons, and an oracle curse. That seems about balanced to me, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Re Disease: "My Self" is making good comparisons. Both mummy rot and ghoul fever are immediate onset. They start off dealing on average 2.5 ability score damage, which increases all the way to 9 ability score damage with a nice scaling DC. Pressure points, Crippling Strike, and similar abilities should be the point of comparison.

Re Char on Lich: For reference, an 8th level Lich will have about 55 hp. Each point of char inflicts 4 damage. To me, that seems like an ever-tempting trade-off for some very powerful abilities. Pair that with a phylactery that will bring you back (painfully) if you really mess up, and you have a big incentive to push yourself to the edge in the pursuit of power - which is what a lich is all about, anyway. I'd love to hear why this is either unbalanced or not fun.

Re Lich Weaknesses: Without the boons and weaknesses, the Lich is about the same power as a wizard specializing in necromancy. The relative power of the boons and the weaknesses about balance each other out, and are earned at the same time, meaning the the overall power of the class stays balanced.

Re Faster Coup: If a paragon ghoul is allowed to paralyze and then coup on the same turn, then it basically becomes "save against paralysis or die." And that's just too powerful (until the capstone). Right?

Re Char Bank: I like this idea, and I may implement it, but I haven't decided on it yet.

Thanks so much for all the insight so far! Particularly useful are the comments which tell me why something either isn't balanced or isn't fun, the comments which suggest new material, and the comments which compare to existing materials.

Thanks for all the awesome ideas "my self" - I've implemented a lot of them.

Undead Paragon Classes II: Ghoul, Lich & Mummy

[My Self]

The Claws and Sharpened Flesh abilities seem to be copies of each other.

Perhaps the ability to imbue weapons/ranged attacks with paralysis and ghoul fever should be a special talent/ability? Most Monk archetypes that let you use Stunning Fist with things other than your fist require extra investment.

Paralyze and Coup de Grace at lower levels on the same turn is too powerful, agreed. I suppose most of the Coup de Grace problems come from caster-martial combos, where a caster tags an enemy with paralysis (Hold Person?), and the martial rushes over next to the paralyzed enemy, but they become unparalleled before the martial can CDG.

Coup de Grace in place of an attack is miles more powerful than Coup de Grace as a move action.

Hope the class goes well.

[My Self]

Meant to say "unparalyzed" instead of "unparalleled" in the previous post. Autocorrect happens.

The Paragon Ghoul's Rapid Fever and Ghoul Exemplar disease buffs are somewhat confusing in switching from 1/round to 1/day - perhaps you simply have an ability that buffs it to 1/round, although perhaps at the cost of some limited resource? By 20th, however, it's not unreasonable to simply have it be 1/round, since Rogues can save-or-die kill on Sneak Attacks.

Something to consider: Undead normally have a strong Will save. It's not necessary for this class, and it's totally your judgement call, but it might be interesting to replace the Fort with Will.

Perhaps the class could ease up on the Roguishness and get some passive defense, skill, and hit chance abilities? A slower pace to selectable talents would prevent the class from competing directly with the Rogue. Sneak Attack at 1st, 3rd, etc. and talents that let you select Rogue Talents makes you a direct competitor for the same role. Also, as mentioned in your Ninja guide - it's hard to frequently get Sneak Attack up, and with a class that seems to have Sneak Attack as a primary feature, but no access to the Scout archetype or in-class invisibility, it might be tough to be effective. Disease can only take you so far. I'd gladly leave Sneak Attack to be a sideshow bonus (like the Slayer or Investigator) in exchange for some sort of "favored flesh" or studied target bonus. A bonus to hit creatures that you can eat would be fun. Maybe also a vegetarian option for Ghouls - some sort of ability that lets you gain 1/2 sustenance from a creature that does not normally leave an edible corpse. Or even a bonus to hit enemies suffering from disease, poison, or curses.

I like the selectable Lich Boons on the Lich class. It seems that as you get more powerful, you also get more entangled in the weaknesses of being evil. Would it be possible for you to take into consideration some sort of barred school/set of spells? Perhaps Liches would be barred from Conjuration (Healing) and Good subtype spells? This would be more of a thematic call than a mechanical weakness. Keep up the good work.

You should probably get some suggestions from someone other than me.

[Broken Zenith]

Assuming we want to keep that many ghoul boons, which combination of these class features sound the most balanced for the Ghoul?

3/4 BAB or Full BAB
Rogue Sneak Attack or Slayer Sneak Attack
Fevered Enemies are Flatfooted to Ghoul or Fevered Enemies suffer Ghoul's Sneak attack.

Any thoughts on the new Rotting Template or the Paragon Mummy?

[Broken Zenith]

Paragon Mummy has now been updated in a lot of little ways. There are no more dead levels and new mummy boons have been added.