I've been thinking about how to do an out of the ordinary Paladin and the thought came to mind of a Paladin carrying a heavy Crossbow sounds absolutely dope to me. Is it feasible with the Devine hunter archetype? I'm sure I would have to be human to get the feats needed. Any advice on how to make this work?
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot *which comes with the archetype*
Deadly aim
Rapid Reload
Rapid Shot
Crossbow Mastery
These feats seem like musts but I'm not sure. Would this even be viable at all?
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Crossbows are generally considered to be worse than longbows because of the feat taxes crossbows have but other bows don't. The Paladin is also a class without a lot of feats to spare. So it's going to be tough to make work.
The "Be a bolt ace for 5 levels and thereafter a Paladin" seems like the best way, honestly that way a human can get PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, and Crossbow Mastery by level 5. Maybe use a light crossbow until you get mastery.
I think a Paladin without a high str who burned his feats with more LoH and stuff, then carried a CB would be fine. Maybe PB and PS. Rapid Reload, and Crossbow Mastery??
I dont think it's worth burning a lot of feats on it.
But if your Pally had a 14 dex and a 12 str with a high cha and con, then sure.
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Shadowshooting weapons solve most of the problems that you otherwise need a bolt ace and/or ton of feats to cover... but they do minimum damage if the target makes a will save.
That's a significant drawback, but not crippling if you've got a lot of precision or other bonus damage options... for a Paladin that'd be smite. The difference between 1d4 (for a hand crossbow or heavy wrist launcher) and just 1 (minimum) is neglibile. If you start throwing in + level for smite, + dex to damage, et cetera... then with TWF to get lots of attacks you can pile up a lot of damage despite it being the 'minimum'.
Crossbows are great in real life and on screen compared to how they are limited in-game. If I wanted to use a ranged weapon that isn't a bow, I would probably go with the sling before crossbow. Crossbows have some unfortunate barriers due to being caught between "simple weapon" and "easy to use but slow to use in real life". Since fantasy games are simulations of real life and not actually bound by it, it would be nice if there were some better in-game options for crossbow users. Heck, look what they did for firearms!
Crossbows are great in real life and on screen compared to how they are limited in-game. If I wanted to use a ranged weapon that isn't a bow, I would probably go with the sling before crossbow. Crossbows have some unfortunate barriers due to being caught between "simple weapon" and "easy to use but slow to use in real life". Since fantasy games are simulations of real life and not actually bound by it, it would be nice if there were some better in-game options for crossbow users.
Simple CB, like th eones in PF are not so great and are much worse than Longbows.
Now if you add pulley and such yes, CB are good for hunting. But not for war. the ROF on a LB was many many times that of the best CB, even tho the CB could do more damage.
It's that way in PF. Yes, they have simplified it, sure. But it's based in historical reality.
Well a bit reason why firearms became so popular (and crossbows too,to a point) was that they were a lot simpler to use, which makes them good enough for commoners and warriors in Pathfinder, but PC are a different manner.
real crossbows could also punch right through plate armor and tower shield long bows could not
Not so much. Yes, a heavy winch mounted CB had a little bit better penetration, but the ROF was dismal.
real crossbows could also punch right through plate armor and tower shield long bows could not
Well a Needle Bodkin with a proper heavy draw longbow can puncture plate but I'm not sure how lethal that would actually be.
http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf
Dual wielding daggers is realistically an utterly stupid combat style but Pathfinder supports that fair enough.
And TWF sucks for most characters, too.
A crossbow is a weapon either as a backup weapon, or for common soldiers with little training, a.k.a. NPCs.
real crossbows could also punch right through plate armor and tower shield long bows could not
Indeed, hence why I homebrewed heavy xbows in my games to attack vs touch at half range, and ballistas at full range. Is it enough? Not sure yet. But at least it gives some use to heavy crossbows.
Not to dismiss your idea but if I wanted to be a "Paladin with a crossbow," I'd be an Inquisitor. You get the divine warrior with free proficiency in repeating crossbows.
You can make TWF work though, mainly through rangers/slayers who can cut through the feat bloat. Crossbows though? There's bolt aces and that's it. Crossbows are about as bottom tier as it gets in PF.
Crossbowman Fighter with Overwatch Style and VMC Rogue.
So yeah, you can make Xbow work, it's just takes a lot of investment and some system mastery.Making TWF with two actual weapons (i.e. no shield or double weapon) good also takes a lot of investment and some system mastery.
Never mind that that Fighter is going to be a load of rubbish till Overwatch Vortex (aka L11), so that's most of the your character's career you're stuck firing two shots at best that don't scale with rapid shot, haste, or similar. Not to mention VMC is going to leave you with virtually no feats and further no armor or weapon training means your fighter is total bait to the normal fighter banes without compensation from the various fixes. Say what you want about bolt ace, at least they're up and ready for war at L5.
Uh, VMC leaves you with 15 feats. Thats 50% more than a number of classes get.
Fighters can afford to give up feats, so the VMC isn't a big issue.
Giving up Armor Training and Weapon Training, after the 2015 fixes to the class, is a harder sell.
Fighters can afford to give up feats, so the VMC isn't a big issue.
Giving up Armor Training and Weapon Training, after the 2015 fixes to the class, is a harder sell.
Right? In my ideal pathfinder 1.5 or whatever, most fighter archetypes swap from giving up weapon/armor training and bravery to giving up bonus feats. That'd make em feel a lot more like other classes archetypes.
At level 9 you take AWT for either "impressing kings" or shoring up your will save, depending on which you feel you need more in the campaign.
I know people get antsy if a build isn't basically finished before level 9 on these boards, but you listed off a build that basically comes close to finished by halfway through your maximum levels. With the AWT option and free space you both shore up your will save and gain skill points, you can also max out some social skills with advanced armor training, or be able to craft your own armor, or up your survivability via redirect to armor, or simply higher AC.
At the end of a level 20 career sure. Mapping it out doesn't leave much on your road there. Note the exact feat order isn't close to optimized, it's just to show how hard it is to get where you want
Human Xbow guy
L1 Precise Shot
L1 Point Blank Shot
L1 Weapon Focus
L2 Rapid Reload
L4 Overwatch Style
L5 Rapid Shot
L6 Crossbow Master
L8 Overwatch Tac
L9 Deadly Aim
L10: Free Space!
L12: Overwatch VortexSo yeah. That's 11 out of 16 feats, finished at L12. Sorry I'm not terribly enthused by my feat count when I really only have 1 slot "open" for various things like shoring up my will save, not dying, impressing kings, etc. And to make things worse, I still wouldn't be done the bloody build since Improved Precise is still there to be taken!
Not to mention a few of the other non-mandatory but still nice to have feats, like the snap shot line and clustered shots. And you'll probably want Iron Will at some point to help with those fighter will saves...
Well you can't take AWT since Paizo didn't future proof fighter archtypes and very nicely clarified that (specific weapon here) training is not weapon training for the purposes of AWT prereqs. Even when their buff books are out, fighters still can't get nice things...
The crossbowman archetype is ass and should never bet taken, AWT provides better benefits to a crossbow user than anything that archetype manages, even dex to damage.
And you'll probably want Iron Will at some point to help with those fighter will saves...
Armed Bravery called and is better than iron will by level 6.
All my buildhammer was in reference to a suggested build upthread that called for using that archtype (and rogue VMC). Stock fighter does the build differently obviously. Sorry if there was confusion there.
No, my bad...i spend a lot of time pretending that APG fighter archetypes dont exist XD
Come on, they're not all bad! There's Weapon Master, and... uhhh...Weapon Master.All my buildhammer was in reference to a suggested build upthread that called for using that archtype (and rogue VMC). Stock fighter does the build differently obviously. Sorry if there was confusion there.No, my bad...i spend a lot of time pretending that APG fighter archetypes dont exist XD
Two handed fighter isnt bad either, but basically everything that doesn't leave advanced armor training OR advanced weapon training is a D student.
AAAAAAAAAANYWAY OP, paladin crossbowing is going to be a rough road to hoe. Consider Tempered Champion of Abadar
Well you can't take AWT since Paizo didn't future proof fighter archtypes and very nicely clarified that (specific weapon here) training is not weapon training for the purposes of AWT prereqs. Even when their buff books are out, fighters still can't get nice things...The crossbowman archetype is ass and should never bet taken, AWT provides better benefits to a crossbow user than anything that archetype manages, even dex to damage.
And you'll probably want Iron Will at some point to help with those fighter will saves...Armed Bravery called and is better than iron will by level 6.
Yeah, but the Crossbowman archetype loses weapon training, so no advanced weapon training for him.
Yeah, but the Crossbowman archetype loses weapon training, so no advanced weapon training for him.Well you can't take AWT since Paizo didn't future proof fighter archtypes and very nicely clarified that (specific weapon here) training is not weapon training for the purposes of AWT prereqs. Even when their buff books are out, fighters still can't get nice things...The crossbowman archetype is ass and should never bet taken, AWT provides better benefits to a crossbow user than anything that archetype manages, even dex to damage.
And you'll probably want Iron Will at some point to help with those fighter will saves...Armed Bravery called and is better than iron will by level 6.
I mean, you CAN be a crossbowman, but its pretty strictly making yourself worse in an already struggling class with the options out there. Its an obsolete archetype with the advent of WMH and AMH. Hell even going VMC fighter bolt ace will do you better in the long run.
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Crossbowman Fighter with Overwatch Style and VMC Rogue.
So yeah, you can make Xbow work, it's just takes a lot of investment and some system mastery.
Would also need Crossbow Mastery (and its pre-requisite feats) to reload.
Well you can't take AWT since Paizo didn't future proof fighter archtypes and very nicely clarified that (specific weapon here) training is not weapon training for the purposes of AWT prereqs.
I have generally taken this FAQ to indicate that 'specific weapon training' DOES work with AWT. Is there some other FAQ I am unaware of? Or are you referring to the PFS restriction on one class?
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Crossbowman Fighter with Overwatch Style and VMC Rogue.
So yeah, you can make Xbow work, it's just takes a lot of investment and some system mastery.Would also need Crossbow Mastery (and its pre-requisite feats) to reload.
Well you can't take AWT since Paizo didn't future proof fighter archtypes and very nicely clarified that (specific weapon here) training is not weapon training for the purposes of AWT prereqs.I have generally taken this FAQ to indicate that 'specific weapon training' DOES work with AWT. Is there some other FAQ I am unaware of? Or are you referring to the PFS restriction on one class?
Yep, [Specific Weapon] Training would count.
Unfortunately, Crossbowman has Crossbow "Expert" rather than Training, so it's no-go. It's really annoying :(
Crossbowman Fighter with Overwatch Style and VMC Rogue.
So yeah, you can make Xbow work, it's just takes a lot of investment and some system mastery.Would also need Crossbow Mastery (and its pre-requisite feats) to reload.
Well you can't take AWT since Paizo didn't future proof fighter archtypes and very nicely clarified that (specific weapon here) training is not weapon training for the purposes of AWT prereqs.I have generally taken this FAQ to indicate that 'specific weapon training' DOES work with AWT. Is there some other FAQ I am unaware of? Or are you referring to the PFS restriction on one class?Yep, [Specific Weapon] Training would count.
Unfortunately, Crossbowman has Crossbow "Expert" rather than Training, so it's no-go. It's really annoying :(
Really seems like it ought to have been an errata target at some point, if only to standardize the rules. Pathfinder has far too many cases of rules with wonkily precise wording that wouldn't be obvious without a FAQ.
If your GM will let you apply the Holy Gun paladin archetype to a Crossbow you can start Bolt Ace Gunslinger going into Holy Gun. That way you get Smiting shot.
Never mind that that Fighter is going to be a load of rubbish till Overwatch Vortex (aka L11)
And TWF is basically crap until you get Two-Weapon Rend, which requires BAB 11 (or Ranger 10), too.
Would also need Crossbow Mastery (and its pre-requisite feats) to reload.
Nope, only Rapid Reload, I'm using a light crossbow.
I didn't say the build was the best thing since sliced bread, but it it does work, and it can shut down spell casters pretty well (those are all readied actions, after all).
A 'specific weapon training' only works with AWT if it name drops weapon training. The crossbowman one does not.
AAAAAAAAAANYWAY OP, paladin crossbowing is going to be a rough road to hoe. Consider Tempered Champion of Abadar
Sadly none of the feats you need to make the reloading problem go away are on your list for the tempered champion. Abadar's DFT is neat, but "making steal and dirty trick attempts at range" isn't as crucial as "free action reloading".
Probably the best way to do this is to use a light crossbow so you don't need so many feats to reload. The tempered champion's warpriest advancement puts the light crossbow on a d10 at level 10, so at that point the only difference is the range increment, and access to weapon specialization earlier will make up the difference in damage.
AAAAAAAAAANYWAY OP, paladin crossbowing is going to be a rough road to hoe. Consider Tempered Champion of AbadarSadly none of the feats you need to make the reloading problem go away are on your list for the tempered champion. Abadar's DFT is neat, but "making steal and dirty trick attempts at range" isn't as crucial as "free action reloading".
Probably the best way to do this is to use a light crossbow so you don't need so many feats to reload. The tempered champion's warpriest advancement puts the light crossbow on a d10 at level 10, so at that point the only difference is the range increment, and access to weapon specialization earlier will make up the difference in damage.
Its more for the 5 bonus feats to help with the ranged feat load. you can squeeze in some bonus accuracy and damage.