Best builds for debuffing?


Advice


I have never played a character that focused on bringing their enemies down to the level where a Wizard could beat them in an arm wrestle, but I'd love to give it a shot. The first two classes that come to mind when I think debuffing are the Witch for casting and the Unchained Rogue for martial. What are some good classes and builds for getting your debuff on?


I believe the Mesmerist can fairly easily stack some horrendous buffs onto people with bold stare stuff although I'm not aware of the details as I play a vexing daredevil which gives up said class feature.

I am also given to understand that Spiritualists with their phantom and Inquisitors alone have the ability to do some interesting things with intimidate.

You're right about Witches though, Evil Eye + Cackle + Misfortune or at level 9 quickened Ill omen can be quite disgusting.

Round one) Evil Eye -4 saves, Qucikened Ill Omen 5e style disadvantage, cackle
Round two) Evil Eye their to hit, or Slumber them or Dominate them or Hold Person them, they're pretty much lost at this point you just get to pick your flavor of murder
I'm given to understand Coup De Grace a slumbered foe with a sycthe is popular. Or a Pick Axe if you're feeling rustic.


A void school wizard gets an impressive debuff in Reveal Weakness. They can follow that up with metamagic (dazing, rime, whatever) on the best spell list in the game.

A dual-cursed oracle with the misfortune revelation gets to do something like Quickened Ill Omen from 1st level. With the Occult mystery they can get the ability to give targets a fear condition (which exactly depends on level) with no save. Alternately the Lunar mystery lets their inflict spells carry a confusion effect rider. Either can do the spiritual weapon/toppling spell combo too.

But yeah, mesmerists look absurdly good at stacking up debuffs, though I haven't played one.


I'm a big fan of a bad touch cleric. The general idea is to abuse domain touch abilities on channeling spellstoring weapons to deliver double bestow curse + other misc debuffs. You kill their wisdom and then their con score. Then they can't make their saves for the next round. Also I sometimes add in a bit of poison for big targets. Preferably con dmg poison.


Mesmerist is great at this. The swift action stare is a -2 (later -3) to all Will saves, plus as you level you choose Bold Stare improvements that add custom debuffs (same -2/-2) to things like their initiative, damage, to hit, spell resistance and DCs of their spells, etc. Plus you or your allies do extra damage when they hit the target of your stare. Plus you can pick a feat to swift action Intimidate (and get an archetype that gives 1/2 level Intimidate bonus). Or you can pick feats that make your stare target save or be shaken, sickened, bleeding, or fatigued when it takes damage.

Oh, and you can cast spells. Those spells include Ill Omen and assorted curses.


Quickened L10 repose blessing

VMC repose domain cleric

strictly speaking repose domain this is not necessary but quickened blessing will go through your blessings already so fast, if you combined a quickened repose blessing with a standard action blessing you go through your blessings even faster, doubling up with standard action repose domain makes it possible you do this trick 4 times a day on level 2:

2 per a turn a no save touch attack: 1st touch staggered, 2nd touch sleep. let somebody else do the murdering while you move on to the next target.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For high levels, I recommend an abjurer greater dispel build like my Sela Kurn.

Nearly all published high level encounters begin with the bad guys already having oodles of spell buffs on them; this is also something GMs like to do in their home games, in order to give their bad guys some more lasting power.

This build will strip all that away pretty much automatically. His dispel synergy feat lowers the targets' saves by -2 per spell removed, while his destructive dispel feat stuns them on a failed Fortitude save, or sickens them on a successful save (further lowering their saves another -2). It's not uncommon for high level foes to have as many as five buffs on their person--which can all be easily removed, resulting in as much as a -12 penalty to their saves as a single action! Not even limited wish does all that!

Hit your enemies with a quickened greater dispel magic, then follow up with a save or die spell and they are pretty much toast every time. Ultimate one-two combo.

Here's a further example of what this character is capable of.


Ravingdork wrote:

For high levels, I recommend an abjurer greater dispel build like my Sela Kurn.

Nearly all published high level encounters begin with the bad guys already having oodles of spell buffs on them; this is also something GMs like to do in their home games, in order to give their bad guys some more lasting power.

This build will strip all that away pretty much automatically. His dispel synergy feat lowers the targets' saves by -2 per spell removed, while his destructive dispel feat stuns them on a failed Fortitude save, or sickens them on a successful save (further lowering their saves another -2). It's not uncommon for high level foes to have as many as five buffs on their person--which can all be easily removed, resulting in as much as a -12 penalty to their saves as a single action! Not even limited wish does all that!

Hit your enemies with a quickened greater dispel magic, then follow up with a save or die spell and they are pretty much toast every time. Ultimate one-two combo.

Here's a further example of what this character is capable of.

I think your example has some issues. Sela is Level 15/Mythic rank 10, so CR20. That makes his attackers somewhere around level 16 themselves. If a group of level 16 characters don't spot and remove a simple alarm spell they have only themselves to blame. At this level they have access to Mind Blank themselves meaning it is much harder for Sela to know they are coming.

Globe of Invulnerability has a very obvious visual effect. Its only a DC21 Knowledge Arcana check to identify it. I am not sure why your fireball chucker wasted his time. Given it only has a duration of 1 round/level assuming it is in place seems a bit of a stretch. Certainly AP opponents will commonly have hour, 10 minute and 1 minute per level buffs active, round per level seems very metagamey.

It isn't entirely clear how Sela is taking an immediate action to counterspell while flatfooted. You cannot normally take immediates while flat footed.


All the above, plus I don't think Dispel Synergy stacks with itself.

Liberty's Edge

I would have to recommend the Halfling Jinx Witch.

Jinx is an alternate racial trait that swaps the Halfling's inherent luck bonus to saves for the ability to inflict a minor debuff on an enemy.

Where the concept really comes into it's own is with the Witch class, Evil Eye Hex, Malicious Eye and Bolster Jinx feats.

You will be solid at debuffing all the way through your career with Hex only, and still have an excellent selection of spells to boot. But with the above combination, at level 9 you can Evil Eye for a total of -7 to all saves. Throw in a Quickened Ill Omen for funsies in the same round and then the next save they make has those massive penalties and they need to roll twice and take the worst result.

After that it's just about which variety of murder you want to inflict on them.

If you really wanted to go crazy you could also throw in Sluggish Jinx to have -3 penalty apply to attack rolls and initiative if you'd like.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
andreww wrote:
I think your example has some issues. Sela is Level 15/Mythic rank 10, so CR20.

I have two versions of the character, a mythic version and a non-mythic version. The one I linked to in this thread the latter (which is to say, your average 15th-level abjurer).

andreww wrote:
Globe of Invulnerability has a very obvious visual effect. Its only a DC21 Knowledge Arcana check to identify it. I am not sure why your fireball chucker wasted his time.

Huh. I never noticed that it was a "faintly shimmering" magical sphere before. I always thought it was invisible.

andreww wrote:
Given it only has a duration of 1 round/level assuming it is in place seems a bit of a stretch. Certainly AP opponents will commonly have hour, 10 minute and 1 minute per level buffs active, round per level seems very...

If you know someone's coming up the stairs of your tower, it's not implausible that you would quickly cast a short-term buff spell on yourself for when they kick in the door.

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
All the above, plus I don't think Dispel Synergy stacks with itself.

Unlike bonuses which have types and stacking rules, penalties do not have a type and nearly always stack with one another. Since the feat specifically states they take a -2 penalty when "you successfully dispel an ongoing magical effect on an opponent" they get a -2 penalty every time you dispel an effect on them. Knock off three spells and they take a -6 penalty. Source rules don't really apply since the triggering source isn't the feat, but the individual spells being dispelled (and also, I think those source rules/clarifications are written with bonuses in mind, not penalties).

Even if your GM disagrees, it's still a really powerful build, leaving your foes either stunned with a -2 to saves, or extremely vulnerable to a followup spell with a -4 penalty to saves.


I'm a huge can of bad touch clerics for this and I also think they are the best at it. I just do t know of any other class that has such a strong ability to debuff or outright kill the victim with so little effort. Just use madness domain in combo with your best save or die spell and it's over by mid levels. At lower levels use metamagic on bestow curse, with the reduction, and they will cry for mercy.


The Madness domain’s Vision of Madness can give you a bonus to skill checks along with a penalty to attacks and saves. Unlike Reveal Weakness this requires a melee touch attack, but it also lasts for 3 rounds. Since the penalties are untyped I guess they could potentially stack. I’d be tempted to use these powers with a PC who has an animal companion, familiar, or summoned monsters who can better take advantage of the debuffs. If you can get one of these capabilities together with Evil Eye the enemy’s problems might get even worse.

You also shouldn’t ignore the potential for debuffing with the shaken condition, perhaps through the Intimidate skill (Enforcer, Cornugon Smash, Blistering Invective, and Dazzling Display can all be useful). Once the enemy is shaken if you or an ally/pet hit it with a Cruel weapon it will become sickened too. Combined with something like Hex Strike (Evil Eye) you could potentially get some big penalties in place pretty quickly. Frostbite is on several spell lists (bloodrager, druid, magus, shaman, witch) and can boost your damage a bit while making the foe fatigued.

@Renegadeshepherd - You said that you're a huge can :)


Eh typos from an iPhone 4. Yes vision of madness does stack so even if you don't have a good save or die you can stack it and bestow curse in the same round (quickened) for a -4+ 1/2 cleric level or better to attacks and saves. If you happen to be a cleric of Azothoth he is completely vulnerable to your madness aura power or madness channeling so he might kill himself lol.

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