One-ish Punch Man? (using house rules)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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My goal with this build is to get my target as close to dead as possible in a single round. The DM I usually run with has a house-rule regarding weapon size increases, such as a Tiefling (with the large hands modifier) Titan Fighter can wield weapons two steps larger rather than one (according to paizo size increase rules, they normally do not stack; only time they do is if, for example, a titan fighter that's had enlarge person cast on him). He's also stated that a Tiefling with large hands has unarmed attacks one step larger.

*Edit: After showing my DM these calculations, I've convinced him to remove the crossed out houserule.

Here's what I have so far for this build:

Starting statline: 16 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 16 wis, 10 cha

Race: Tiefling (Oni-spawn w/ large hands, +2 str, +2 wis, -2 cha)

Class: Monk (Master of Many Styles)

Feats:

  • Pummeling Style, Pummeling Charge
  • Janni Style, Janni Rush
  • Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity
  • Jabbing Style, Jabbing Master
  • Power Attack
  • Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved, Greater
  • Mountain-Splitting Strike

Pre-requisite feats:

  • Dodge
  • Mobility
  • Bludgeoner

Feats on the fence:
  • Cudgeler Style, Cudgeler Takedown

At max potential, a round would look something like this:
  • Enter all styles (free action)
  • Power Attack
  • Charge
  • jump (janni)
  • full attack (pummeling)
  • second hit adds 2d6, third and more adds 4d6 (jabbing; I'm probably looking at jabbing style wrong, anyone have confirmation on how this style is meant to work?)
  • roll each hit twice (janni; not additional damage, second roll not eligible for crit)
  • power attack bonus damage on each damage roll
  • add damage up before dr (pummeling)

Earliest Level with all feats is 15, assuming large creature, damage roll is 4d6 3d6:

  • 3d6*14 (7 janni) + 6*14 (power attack) + (2d6 + 4d6*5 (jabbing)) + 2*STR*14 (dragon; the text on dragon style says the str bonus is added, I'm assuming instead of the normal str bonus)
  • damage range (no equipment, 20 str): 302 - 692 288 - 608

Lvl 20: Assuming target is a large creature, each damage roll is 6d8 4d8.

  • 4d8*14 (7 janni) + 8*14 (power attack) + (2d6 + 4d6*5 (jabbing)) + 2*STR*14 (dragon; the text on dragon style says the str bonus is added, I'm assuming instead of the normal str bonus)
  • damage range (no equipment, 22 str): 386 - 1084 358 - 860

I need the Two-Weapon Fighting and co. because MoMS removes the flurry of blows class ability.

I know it takes a lot of feats to reach the end goal, but each feat usually provides a piece of the puzzle that helps in the immediate sense for the early-mid levels. If you guys have any ideas or suggestions, or if there are clashing rules/effects I didn't take into account, I'd appreciate your comment.


Dot?


A potential feat path I have for this, which includes scorpion style, gorgon's fist, and medusa's wrath:

Bonus Style Feats:


  • 1 Pummeling Style
  • 2 Pummeling Charge
  • 6 Janni Rush
  • 10 Jabbing Style
  • 14 Jabbing Master
  • 18 ?

Feats:


  • 1 Two-Weapon Fighting
  • 3 Dragon Style
  • 5 Janni Style
  • 7 Dragon Ferocity
  • 9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
  • 11 Scorpion Style
  • 13 Gorgon's Fist
  • 15 Medusa's Wrath
  • 17 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
  • 19 Power Attack

I want to get power attack in way earlier, but I'm not sure how to fit it in. I tried to prioritize the more important pieces to the puzzle as early on as I could, what do you guys think?

Also, I just realized my calculations earlier were incorrect, I was using 7 attacks instead of the 6 I should get as a monk with GTWF.


Tacticslion wrote:
Dot?

I'm sorry, you'll have to expand your question, I don't understand what you mean.


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Mantipper wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Dot?
I'm sorry, you'll have to expand your question, I don't understand what you mean.

It means they're posting as a way to mark the thread.


Basically it's just a post so I can find this thread easier later. :)


doted


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There's a forum lingo thread somewhere around here.


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GypsyMischief wrote:
There's a forum lingo thread somewhere around here.

Oh ok, thanks for the info. As it's probably already apparent, I'm new to these forums (and pathfinder in general), so I'll look for that thread. **Edit -- Found it, great read, very amusing and informative.

Tomorrow I'll work on a feat progression path some more and do some more calculations at various levels.


Glad you're here!


OK here's a different feat path that I think works out a little better, so long as the following is true:

Dragon Style and Pummeling Charge interact in such a way that the full attack off of the charge is considered one attack, and adds it's first attack strength bonus to all of the hits.

Does that sound right? I've looked up some of the rulings/questions about Pummeling Style, and for the most part people seem to agree that it would be correct.

Bonus Style Feats:


  • 1 Pummeling Style
  • 2 Pummeling Charge
  • 6 Janni Rush
  • 10 Jabbing Style
  • 14 Jabbing Master
  • 18 Dragon Ferocity

Feats:


  • 1 Two-Weapon Fighting
  • 3 Dragon Style
  • 5 Janni Style
  • 7 Power Attack
  • 9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
  • 11 Scorpion Style
  • 13 Gorgon's Fist
  • 15 Medusa's Wrath
  • 17 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
  • 19 Weapon Focus (Unarmed)?

I'll do some math here in a bit at various levels, I'm thinking 1, 3, 6, 8, 10, 14, 15, 20. Pretty much whenever a feat poses a significant damage boost.


You'll need to take Janni Tempest, before you take Janni Rush.

It looks like the *14 indicates you have 14 attacks. I'm guessing you're using Janni rush to make your 7 base attacks, look like 14. 3 main hand, 3 offhand from TWF tree, and 1 ki bonus. However, you only get that on the base damage. Not on power attack, or bonuses from other style feats.

Janni Rush

Benefit: While using Janni Style, you are always considered to have a running start when jumping. Further, if you jump as part of a charge and make an unarmed strike against the designated opponent, a hit allows you to roll the unarmed strike’s damage dice twice and add the results together before adding modifiers (such as from Strength) or extra dice (such as precision-based damage or dice from weapon abilities). The extra damage dice are not multiplied on a successful critical hit.

Unless you are house ruling your Tiefling, your 1st level feat will need to be Fiendish Heritage

At level 20.

Melee - All power attacking
Unarmed Strike +15 / +10 / +5 (4d8+6/x2)
First attack +15 4d8 (base class), +4d8 (Janni Rush), +12 (dragon styles), +8 (power attack)
Average = 36 (dice)+20
Second attack +10 4d8(base), +4d8 (Janni Rush), +2d6 (Jabbing Master), +9(Dragon Ferocity), +8 (power attack)
Average = 36 (dice)+ 7 (jabbing) +17
Third attack +5 4d8(base), +4d8 (Janni Rush), +4d6 (Jabbing Master), +9(Dragon Ferocity), +8 (power attack)
Average = 36 (dice)+ 14 (jabbing) +17

[Unarmed Strike] [+15 / +10 / +5] ([4d8+6]/[x2])
Fourth attack +15 4d8(base), +4d8 (Janni Rush), +4d6 (Jabbing Master), +9(Dragon Ferocity), +4 (power attack)
~ Average = (dice)+ 14 (jabbing) +13
Fifth attack +10 4d8(base), +4d8 (Janni Rush), +4d6 (Jabbing Master), +9(Dragon Ferocity), +4 (power attack)
Average = 36 (dice)+ 14 (jabbing) +13
Sixth attack+5 4d8(base), +4d8 (Janni Rush), +4d6 (Jabbing Master), +9(Dragon Ferocity), +4 (power attack)
Average = 36 (dice)+ 14 (jabbing) +13

Seventh attack (Ki point) +15 4d8(base), +4d8 (Janni Rush), +4d6 (Jabbing Master), +9(Dragon Ferocity), +8 (power attack)
Average = 36 (dice)+ 14 (jabbing) +17
Attack 1 - 56
Attack 2 - 60
Attack 3 - 67
Attack 4 - 63
Attack 5 - 63
Attack 6 - 63
Attack 7 - 67
Attack total – average = 439


HyperionPDX wrote:
You'll need to take Janni Tempest, before you take Janni Rush.

As a Master of Many Styles, I don't even need to touch tempest:

At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not need to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Starting at 6th level, a master of many styles can choose to instead gain a wildcard style slot. Whenever he enters one or more styles, he can spend his wildcard style slots to gain feats in those styles’ feat paths (such as Earth Child Topple) as long as he meets the prerequisites. Each time he changes styles, he can also change these wildcard style slots.

Also, I'm about done with my second set of calculations, my first set had flaws and incorrect logic.

I appreciate the time you put into your math, it's great to have another mind on this.


Since I'm new, I'd like to make sure that I'm understanding melee combat rules. Strength bonus is added on each melee hit, Janni style rolls them twice and adds them together before bonus damage, that makes it sound like Janni doesn't double the str bonus (which is fair, and means my first set of calculations were wrong again). Also, when dividing an odd number by half, it rounds down (such as 5/2=2) unless it's specified otherwise.

1:

  • Str: 18, UAS: 1d8, attacks: 2
  • 2d8 + 1*str*2 = 10 - 24, average 17 dpr

3:

  • Str: 18, UAS: 1d8, attacks: 2
  • 2d8 + 1.5*str*2 = 14 - 28, average 21 dpr

6:

  • Str: 19, UAS: 2d6x2, attacks: 2
  • 8d6 + 1.5*str*2 = 14 - 54, average 34 dpr

8:

  • Str: 20, UAS: 2d8x2, attacks: 3
  • 12d8 + 1.5*str*3 + (floor(BAB/4)*2 + 2)*3 = 45 - 129, average 87 dpr

10:

  • Str: 20, UAS: 2d8x2, attacks: 4
  • 12d8 + 1.5*str*4 + (floor(BAB/4)*2 + 2)*4 + ((4-1)d6) = 59 - 158, average 108.5 dpr

14:

  • Str: 20, UAS: 3d6x2, attacks: 4
  • 24d6 + 1.5*str*4 + (floor(BAB/4)*2 + 2)*4 + (2d6 + (4-2)*4d6) = 86 - 256, average 171 dpr

15:

  • Str: 20, UAS: 3d6x2, attacks: 7
  • 42d6 + 1.5*str*7 + (floor(BAB/4)*2 + 2)*7 + (2d6 + (7-2)*4d6) = 155 - 475, average 315 dpr

20:

  • Str: 22, UAS: 4d8x2, attacks: 8
  • 64d8 + 2*str*8 + (floor(BAB/4)*2 + 2)*8 + (2d6 + (8-2)*4d6) = 218 - 796, average 507 dpr

Based on this, I'm not fond of Power attack, as at level 20 it's only adding 32 damage while making it harder to hit with all of the attacks. Anyone have any ideas on what feat would be great to replace it?


HyperionPDX wrote:

Unless you are house ruling your Tiefling, your 1st level feat will need to be Fiendish Heritage

I was also under the impression that Tieflings were changed/errata'd to not require that feat, much like an Aasimar. Either way, my DM would houserule that in.


HyperionPDX wrote:


It looks like the *14 indicates you have 14 attacks. I'm guessing you're using Janni rush to make your 7 base attacks, look like 14. 3 main hand, 3 offhand from TWF tree, and 1 ki bonus. However, you only get that on the base damage. Not on power attack, or bonuses from other style feats.

This was one of the flaws in my math before, I made the assumption that since a Flurry of Blows had 7 attacks, a full twf'd attack would too. I don't think that I would be able to use the ki bonus for an extra attack (RAW), since it explicitly says: Make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack.

I'm fairly certain my DM would allow it, since RAI seems to be just an extra attack for a full attack action.

And yes, I realized today that I was adding in a bunch of damage that shouldn't have been there, and I corrected those in my second set.


HyperionPDX wrote:

Unless you are house ruling your Tiefling, your 1st level feat will need to be Fiendish Heritage

they dont need it anymore since the reprint cuz when aasimar got printed they didnt need a feat for the varients so they fixed it for teiflings later on at least thats what ive been told


I have no idea how you'll be true to the anime without 20 Gestalt Monk+Brawler/10 Mythic


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Jader7777 wrote:
I have no idea how you'll be true to the anime without 20 Gestalt Monk+Brawler/10 Mythic

So true, hence the "ish". I'm definitely interested in trying this out as a Gestalt character, though that's for another day.


Decided to put together a sample list of Equipment/Effects to improve damage:

Permanent Spells:

  • Greater Magic Fang: +5 enh bonus on attack/damage
  • Enlarge Person: +2 str -2 dex, -1 attack and ac, UAS increases to huge damage

Inherent Bonus to Ability scores from wishes, +5 max per

Wondrous Items:

  • Belt: Belt of Physical Might/Perfection (so long as it has dex/str)(Giant Strength early on)
  • Body: If I'm understanding this right, I can have a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes+2 with a +5 special ability (the body wrap specifies the special ability cannot bring the body wrap over +7). If this is the case, the special abilities I would prioritize would be: Brilliant Energy (ignores armor/shield bonuses), and otherwise (+2 and less) negating (5 dr reduction of good, evil, lawful, chaotic, and magic), Keen (if pummeling makes the entirety of the hit a single crit on a confirm, this significantly increases the chances)
  • Chest: none increasing damage, spell resistance is handled by Diamon Soul
  • Eye: Swordmaster's Blindfold? Eyes of the dragon? not sure what else to put here
  • Feet: Boots of Speed (1 extra attack on full attack)
  • Hands: Giant Fist Gauntlets (2 size step increase, would overlap with Tiefling's large limbs and net 1 size step), Deliquescent Gloves (for oozes), Gloves of the Shortened Path (hands basically teleport, useful for one punch manning it at range)
  • Head: Mask of the Skull (an extra 130 or 3d6+13 damage), Halo of Menace (-2 attack, saves, ac to threatened targets)
  • Headband: Headband of Mental Prowess/Inspired Wisdom (enh bonus to wis/int)
  • Neck: Amulet of Natural Armor, Dragonfoe Amulet (incredible vs dragons), Amulet of Hidden Strength (swift action for 1 attack at highest BAB), Hand of Glory (third ring), Amulet of Mighty Fists (same as the body wrap)
  • Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance
  • Wrists: Bracers of Armor, Longarm Bracers (5 additional reach), Bonebreaker Bracers (str, dex, or con reduction on target -6)
  • Rings: Ring of Protection, Ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Return, Ring of Evasion, Ring of Invisibility, Ring of Strength Sapping (1/day, swift action, 1d4 str damage on uas, if successful then gain 2 enh bonus to str)

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