OK so here is a fun whip magus question i have. that has stumped 3 GMs so far


Rules Questions


there are 4 enemies surrounding the magus (in a north south east west fashion) just before they all got into position the magus in question had cast a hasted true strike and a mirror strike causing both to be online at the start of the next turn and for giggles the magus is lvl 5 and had cast chill touch earlier. the magus uses serpent lash to preform a trip maneuver.

here are my questions for PFS rules:

Q1: does he hit all 4 enemies?

Q2: how many attacks are under the effect of true strike?

Q3: do any of the attacks hit with chill touch attached to them if so how many charges are used up total.

How i think it playes out:
serpent lash would start off with true strike attached which you would roll and mirror strike would go off with the roll being base+24 (whip, mirror strike ability, and true strike (i think)). would most likely hit (ending mirror strike and true strike) causing serpent lashes ability to kick in which would give you a second trip maneuver on another enemy at a +24 to hit base. the 4th person is unthouched. because 3 people were touched by the trip maneuver (if succesfull) it would cause all 3 to fall and be hit with chill touch.

if this works like i think it does could you do it with other spellstruck spells? if so what other ones are they?


One problem is that you threw away the charges for Chill Touch.

CRB wrote:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.


yep missed that line whops. do i still get the fall prone part correct?

Gisher wrote:

One problem is that you threw away the charges for Chill Touch.


Q1: No, only 3 of them. Mirror strike makes your 1 attack become two attacks. Serpent lash adds an additional free trip attempt against an adjacent enemy.

Q2: Two of them, because two of them use the exact same roll (the mirror strike'd attack). The serpent lash is its own separate and extra attack roll.

Q3: Aside from losing your chill touch for casting another spell, no. Combat maneuvers don't trigger touch attacks. Touch spells can be delivered through touch attacks, unarmed attacks, natural attacks, or in the case of the magus through weapon attacks. No mention is made of delivering them through combat maneuvers. I would have no issue with a GM ruling otherwise in this case though as clearly the trip is being done with the whip.


Q1: 3. You attack with Serpent's Lash once and then a second time. The first one is affected by Mirror Strike's "when you make your next melee attack roll" and is split into two.

Q2: As True Strike triggers on "Your next single attack roll", it will apply to the attack roll used in conjunction with Mirror Strike, and thus affect those two targets. It's my opinion that the "same bonus" referred to in Serpent's Lash are your basic attack roll modifiers, and that True Strike's "single next attack" is more specific and trumps Serpent's Lash in this case.

Q3: While Gisher is correct about the spell dissipation, if you were to use Chill Touch instead of True Strike, each opponent hit would consume a charge (assuming your attacks qualify for applying Chill Touch to). While the flavor of Mirror Strike may mislead you into believing that it's a single "cloned" attack, you're actually still hitting both targets with your weapon, just with different rules for determining whether you hit and how to adjudicate the results.

This is still a clever use of the spell, however, as the reduced damage doesn't generally matter for a non-damaging attack.


fair enough. so i guess it does come down to how "same Bonus" is interpreted.
Byakko your interpretation in this instance seems like the most likely intended interpretation of that wording.

not a bad build made on the fly between 2am and 3am...


now assuming that i dont use true strike are there any spells simmilar to chill touch that can be used/deliverd this way (assuming gm allows this form of delivery. this is supposed to be a debuff magus. damage is not to vital (want to branch away from shocking grasp trick)

also someone told me that all 4 people could be hit using this method... How?


Can you explain how you are casting both True Strike and Mirror Strike in the same round?


meta magic quickened spell


Rical wrote:

meta magic quickened spell

That doesn't work. Those are both 1st level spells so adding Quicken Spell would make either of them use a 5th level spell slot. As a 5th level Magus you don't have any 5th level slots.


Touch spells don't trigger on combat maneuvers. Even grapples. It's aggressively nonsensical, and I hope it gets changed soon.


good point there. imigen a lvl 13 then.

this was just a quick concept build for a new player and i didnt want him dealing with the attack and retreat stragigy of the magus. i came up with the whip debuff magus(he wanted to play a magus) and ran it by my friends who are also gms and we were stumped by the ruling when i showed them the lvl 5 version (when it comes online and starts to shine) and i said "what if" so we looked to see if it was even possible. didnt think about the spell lvl jack up requirement at the point of posting because we knew that it could be quickened eventually.

sorry about the mix up.


we could even go so far as to say that he/she got stupid lucky and found a lesser metamagic rod of quicken just to keep at 5th lvl if we wanted


Rical wrote:
we could even go so far as to say that he/she got stupid lucky and found a lesser metamagic rod of quicken just to keep at 5th lvl if we wanted

Can't use rods... need that hand free for spell combat.


^Unless you manage to get an extra arm (Alchemist dip or Kasatha, or at later levels Monstrous Physique) or a prehensile tail (Vanara or some Tieflings).

Liberty's Edge

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Rical wrote:
we could even go so far as to say that he/she got stupid lucky and found a lesser metamagic rod of quicken just to keep at 5th lvl if we wanted
Can't use rods... need that hand free for spell combat.

Or you got a metamagic rod that double as a one handed weapon (there is at least one in one AP, a dagger that work as a metamagic rod, probably a mace with the Ectoplasmic Spell another AP, but our GM changed it, so I am not sure). So a magical whip that work as a lesser rod of quickening? Possible, but extremely rare.


Use rod cast spells drop rod draw weapon. (I'm making a theoretical dream scenario where everything happens perfectly to see if it is possible)


I want to see what is possible for this character so I can show the new player some of the things this kind. Character can do. I don't want the character to be a one trick pony.


Rical wrote:
Use rod cast spells drop rod draw weapon. (I'm making a theoretical dream scenario where everything happens perfectly to see if it is possible)

Spell combat requires that the hand be free for THE ENTIRE ROUND. Rods are simply not usable in this scenario.


The provisions round you cast the spells. They both last till the end of your next turn. So it is possible to do it. You use your move action to draw the weapon so at the start of your next turn you have weapon in your hand and your other hand is free you could even argue that you cast one of the spells say true strike using 2 wpn combat at the beginning of the turn and just take the -2 to hit. If I remember correctly the only has to be a a spell on the magus spell list to usein 2 wpn combat magus ability. And you can choose which one happens first.


The only problem is that I do not think you can use the feat serpent lash in the 2 wpn combat magus ability because it is a standard action to do serpent lash. And 2 wpn combat is a full round action so I do not think you can combine them. Which makes quickened spell nessary. Or you could make the magus lvl13+. The idea is see what the full potential of this maneuver is. Also assumning the gm has ruled that you can actually deliver spell through a trip maneuver. So given all perfect conditions are there other spells that can be ultlized like chill touch to apply debuff affects to the 3 confirmed hits.


Building a perfect scenario allows me to see what cannot/can happen in a not perfect scenario.


What is a '2 wpn combat magus ability?' Do you mean Spell Combat?


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Rical wrote:
Use rod cast spells drop rod draw weapon. (I'm making a theoretical dream scenario where everything happens perfectly to see if it is possible)
Spell combat requires that the hand be free for THE ENTIRE ROUND. Rods are simply not usable in this scenario.

It sounds like Rical is using round 1 to set spells, with round 2 to attack.

Spell Combat is not necessary.

Round 1:

Quicken(rod) True Strike. -swift
Cast Mirror Strike -standard
Drop rod -free
Draw Weapon(whip) -move

Round 2:
Do the attacks.

No spell combat needed, rodCast, drop, cast, draw works fine.

Now, if Rical wants to use a rod to cram it all into one round, then they need to use spell combat, and thus need some way to hold both the rod and weapon with a hand free for casting.

Serpent Lash uses a standard action. Not usable in the same round as Spell Combat (I assume this is the referenced TWF magus ability).


Or haste because weeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Assume lvl 9 magus arcana ability to turn on in a previous round assuming 18 int by lvl 9... How would you fit this all in 1 round.(PS I am having a lot of fun with this chat)


Because I think under haste the player could have spellstruck spell like cold touch or other spell like it if any ( seriously are there any in the magus/wizard spell list (use an ability to add said spell to spell list)


Rical wrote:
The only problem is that I do not think you can use the feat serpent lash in the 2 wpn combat magus ability because it is a standard action to do serpent lash.

I'd missed that detail. Serpent lash indeed cannot be combined with spell combat, or a full attack. Round 1 to prep your two spells, then round 2 to make a normal standard attack would be fine though.


How would haste change the paradigm. And can you by pathfinder standard spell strike to char up say chill touch? If so given the house rule that you could connect a chill touch through a trip maneuver will it work while under the haste spell to spell strike (forgoing the free attack that comes with spellstrike) could you then serpent lash? Without any other house ruling.


Haste and serpent lash won't combine. Haste gives an extra attack when making a full attack action. Serpent lash only works when using a standard action to make the attack.

You either use a full round action to make a full attack (no serpent lash), or you get a move action and a standard action (no extra attack from haste).


Rical wrote:
And can you by pathfinder standard spell strike to char up say chill touch?

I don't understand this question. What do you mean by char up?


Cold touch lasts 1round/lvl so could you spellstrike to gain cold touch for the 3 attacks that land given the above scenario without using another house ruling


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There is the blood Conduit bloodrager that can use touch spell with some combat maneuvers.


Wouldn't because that ruling existence that by logic the magus can deliver spells through their weapon the same way via a cmb maneuver minus the Swift action ability.

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