Arcane Enlightenment: Granting Prepared Spells to Spontaneous Casters


Rules Questions

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Why is there no FAQ or Errata on how these rules interact?

Without such a definitive statement, the loudest voices are asserting that said spells are not gained because there are no prepared spell slots, so spells being on the list of spells to prepare effectively don't exist.

Personally, it would make much more sense to make an Errata that says that in the case of a rule adding spells to a list of spells that may be prepared for a Spontaneous Caster, instead add those spells to the list of spells known.


Shaman wrote:
A shaman casts divine spells drawn from the shaman spell list. A shaman must choose and prepare her spells in advance.
Arcane Enlightenment wrote:
The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare.

A Shaman has access to the entire Shaman list, like a Cleric has to the Cleric list. When the Shaman prepares the spells he wants to cast that day, he can also add some spells from the Wizard list.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

+1

Also since it's a class feature, they would be able to cast it via the Spells Known FAQ.


Bill1138 wrote:

Why is there no FAQ or Errata on how these rules interact?

Without such a definitive statement, the loudest voices are asserting that said spells are not gained because there are no prepared spell slots, so spells being on the list of spells to prepare effectively don't exist.

Personally, it would make much more sense to make an Errata that says that in the case of a rule adding spells to a list of spells that may be prepared for a Spontaneous Caster, instead add those spells to the list of spells known.

Loud has nothing to do with to do with it. The simple fact is that RAW, a spontaneous caster does prepare spells. Basic logic then dictates the result. Even if I wish the result was different, rules are rules. Regardless of how loudly they are read.

As others have noted the ability was written for a prepared caster, hence the language issue.

Liberty's Edge

I don't get the question.
A shaman is a prepared spellcaster.
The class feature of the lore shaman give him the ability to cdd a few spells to his list.

Where spontaneous casters enter into the equation?

You mean the Spirit Magic ability? If so, put that in your question, not presenting half of the question make it useless.

If that is the question:

PRD wrote:


Spirit Magic: A shaman can spontaneously cast a limited number of spells per day beyond those she prepared ahead of time. She has one spell slot per day of each shaman spell level she can cast, not including orisons. She can choose these spells from the list of spells granted by her spirits (see the spirit class feature and the wandering spirit class feature) at the time she casts them. She can enhance these spells using any metamagic feat that she knows, using up a higher-level spell slot as required by the feat and increasing the time to cast the spell (see Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats).
PRD wrote:


Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman's native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare. To cast these spells, she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level, but the saving throw DCs of these spells are based on her Wisdom rather than Intelligence. When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane. Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells with a new spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Not part of the list of spell granted by the Lore spirit, those spells are

PRD - Lore spirit wrote:


Spirit Magic Spells: Identify (1st), tongues (2nd), locate object (3rd), legend lore (4th), contact other plane (5th), mass owl's wisdom (6th), vision (7th), moment of prescience (8th), time stop (9th).

No problem there with rule interpretation, very clear cut.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Where spontaneous casters enter into the equation?

The Oracle Spirit Guide archetype gives access to a Shaman Spirit.

Liberty's Edge

andreww wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Where spontaneous casters enter into the equation?
The Oracle Spirit Guide archetype gives access to a Shaman Spirit.

So the question is about a specific archetype, not about Arcane Enlightenment. Again, posting a incomplete question supposing that who read know what you mean is not the way to go.

PRD - Spirit Guide (Archetype) wrote:

Bonded Spirit (Su): At 3rd level, a spirit guide can form a temporary bond with a spirit, as the shaman's wandering spirit class feature. She must make this selection each day when she refreshes her spells. A spirit guide cannot bond with a spirit that is incompatible with her alignment, ethos, or mystery (GM's discretion).

A spirit guide gains one hex of her choice from the list of hexes available from that spirit. She uses her oracle level as her shaman level, and she switches Wisdom for Charisma and vice versa for the purpose of determining the hex's effects.

At 4th level, she adds the bonded spirit's spirit magic spells to her oracle spells known for that day, but only those of spell levels she can cast. At 7th level, she gains the spirit ability of her current bonded spirit. At 15th level, she gains the greater spirit ability of her current bonded spirit.

This ability replaces the revelations gained at 3rd, 7th, and 15th levels.

PRD wrote:

Hexes: A shaman who chooses the lore spirit can select from the following hexes.

Arcane Enlightenment (Su): ...

I see what he is trying to do, getting a variable selection of wizard spells every day. But he has few a problems:

1) the hex is not made to be switched on and off every day, it is made to be a permanent feature. You permanently choose the wizard spells you get (it is possible to replace them when the character gain a level or by retaining).
2) The hex give him spells that he can prepare. If he don't prepare spells it don't work.

Essentially he is trying to do what Paragon surge did before the FAQ. A FAQ will end the same way. Either you can't take this hex with a spontaneous caster , of your selection of spells is fixed after teh first time you get it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Again, this isn't a combo.
This is an Oracle class feature granting access to spells known, which based on the Spells Known FAQ grants access to know and cast the spells. Because it's a class feature.

If this were and item or a feat designed for prepared casters, or a spell for prepared only or you chose spells that were prepared only, you wouldn't be able to cast them. But as long as you choose arcane enlightenment via Spirit Magic in Oracle and choose spells like fireball and not like meditation spells, then you are fine.


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Expect table variance. My spirit guide oracle uses this hex. He has a fixed list of wizard spells which he casts using his oracle slots.
This seemed the best way to handle the situation, but the actual rules are unclear.

I can see it being declared that the hex does nothing for an oracle, or that a new selection of spells can be made every day.


How is it unclear when Oracles do not prepare spells?


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I agree that the situation is very clear for a Shaman (ie there is no issue there), but less clear for an Oracle with the Spirit Guide archetype. There is the obvious problem that the hex language references preparation of spells (which an Oracle does not do), but for me it also comes with a possible balance problem.

Though it isn't clear from the language, I think I could get my head around the idea that a logical reading of the Arcane Enlightnment hex when taken by a Spirit Guide Oracle is to add the spells chosen to the Oracle class spell list (based on the idea that adding spells to the list of those that can be prepared by a shaman is effectively the same as adding it to the Shaman spell list). However, I don't think it is appropriate for them to also be automatically added to the Oracle's spells known.

That's where the balance issue arises.

Typically, 'spells known' is a key restriction on the power and flexibility of a spontaneous caster, and so I tend to think it should not be so easily bypassed. If the hex allowed for not just adding arcane spells to the Oracle list, but also added them to the Oracle's spells known that seems overly powerful to me, and unbalanced in the sense that it is considerably more powerful in the hands of the Spirit Guide than for a Shaman. It also does not seem to be contemplated anywhere in the language of the hex, and would require that we "read in" quite a bit.

@ James Risner: Regarding the Spells Known FAq, I'm not sure it has application here. Assuming we're talking about the same FAQ, it says:

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

The question addressed in that FAQ deals with abilities which add a spell to a character's list of spells known. There is nothing in the language of Arcane Enlightenment that speaks to adding spells to "spells known" (which is a specific term for spontaneous casters). Instead, it speaks to adding to the list of spells that a Shaman can prepare. While I can logically see how that could be likened to adding it to the class spell list, that's entirely different than "spells known".

In summary, I agree that this is an unclear interaction for a Spirit Guide Oracle, and significant table variance can reasonably be expected barring a FAQ (which I think would have to be specifically directed to this unique interaction).


This does nothing for an oracle as they don't prepare spells.


Chess Pwn wrote:
This does nothing for an oracle as they don't prepare spells.

And Azten's remark "How is it unclear when Oracles do not prepare spells. "

I refer you both to this very thread.

I would not attempt to use this hex in a PFS game, simply because the actual rule seems to show that this hex does nothing. However, many players would like it to do something useful so they ask their GMs to make a house rule.

Which house rule gets made (if any) will vary from game to game until such time as Paizo makes a FAQ or erratum concerning it - if they ever feel it warrants one.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Quote:
unless they are added by a class feature of that same class

Oracle class has a class feature that adds spells to the Oracle class, Arcane Enlightenment feature. So same class.

Also Spells Known is for Spontaneous Class (when you add a spells known you can cast that spell) and for Prepared (like Wizards your spells known is the spells in your spellbook.) So Spells Known is applicable to both, which is why the FAQ exists in the first place. You can add a spell to a wizard spellbook that is a magus only spell. It becomes a spells known for the wizard. He knows the magus only spell. He can't cast it, because it isn't a wizard spell. But he knows it.


James Risner wrote:
Quote:
unless they are added by a class feature of that same class

Oracle class has a class feature that adds spells to the Oracle class, Arcane Enlightenment feature. So same class.

Also Spells Known is for Spontaneous Class (when you add a spells known you can cast that spell) and for Prepared (like Wizards your spells known is the spells in your spellbook.) So Spells Known is applicable to both, which is why the FAQ exists in the first place. You can add a spell to a wizard spellbook that is a magus only spell. It becomes a spells known for the wizard. He knows the magus only spell. He can't cast it, because it isn't a wizard spell. But he knows it.

Hmmm... the last part about wizards adding non-wizard spells to their spellbook has me intrigued. It takes us a little off track, but it's part of the premise for your argument, so I think it's worth exploring. Where does that come from?

Looking on the PRD, I'm only seeing the following under the Spellbook discussion for Wizards:

PRD wrote:

Spellbooks: A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).

Under the Magic link, it goes on to say:

PRD wrote:

Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook

Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.

That seems to pretty clearly indicate that a wizard cannot add non-wizard to their spellbook, but I'm prepared to concede that I might have missed something as I read through.


There were no other classes with spellbooks when the CRB was published. As such, the wording is, of course, rather weird.


the problem is, the rule is that the wording stands. Something that says wizard, when wizard was the only class with X, we haven't been told that it should be opened up to other classes with X.

Like familiars. improved had arcane caster level, which wasn't ever granted from the familiar feature. Finally we have a FAQ that says the pre-reqs now allow your familiar level to count.

things aren't written with the future in mind and aren't updated when future options come.


I think I may have found the source of James' assertion -- it's on the Magus page.

PRD wrote:
A magus can learn spells from a wizard's spellbook, just as a wizard can from a magus's spellbook. The spells learned must be on the magus spell list, as normal. An alchemist (see the Alchemist description) can learn formulae from a magus's spellbook, if the spells are also on the alchemist spell list. A magus cannot learn spells from an alchemist.

However, nothing I'm seeing there implies the wizard or magus can add spells to their spellbook which are not on their actual spell list. In fact, it seems to specify the opposite.

Liberty's Edge

Chess Pwn wrote:
the problem is, the rule is that the wording stands. Something that says wizard, when wizard was the only class with X, we haven't been told that it should be opened up to other classes with X.

Sometimes we have;

Preparing Spells in Open Slots: The Magic chapter says a wizard can leave spell slots open and prepare spells in them later. Can any other class do this?
That text was written when wizard was the only class that prepares arcane spells. This option is also available to magus and witch characters (both of which are classes that prepare arcane spells).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The clarification comes form 3.5 Glossary which was punted in Pathfinder.

Quote:
known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.

You could consider it an unwritten rule.

In any event, there are many legal ways to do this.

Take a Magus with Greater Spell Access:
Spells given: 2 Wizard spells of each level

You add two non-Magus spells to your magus spellbook, then you retrain Greater Spell Access to something else.

Now you have 2 known spells in your magus spellbook, but you can't prepare them.

Another way is for a wizard to "make their own" a former magus spell book containing magus only spells. That wizard knows those magus spells. But can't cast them.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
the problem is, the rule is that the wording stands. Something that says wizard, when wizard was the only class with X, we haven't been told that it should be opened up to other classes with X.

Sometimes we have;

Preparing Spells in Open Slots: The Magic chapter says a wizard can leave spell slots open and prepare spells in them later. Can any other class do this?
That text was written when wizard was the only class that prepares arcane spells. This option is also available to magus and witch characters (both of which are classes that prepare arcane spells).

Right sometimes specific things get opened up. But we haven't had any broad statement like "If you see wizards spellbook you can substitute any spellbook granted by any class."

"if you see bloodlines stuff with the requirement sorcerer change sorcerer to any class with bloodline."

Because archetypes like the ID rager had conversions for all the spirits at the time, but soon after 3 new spirits came out. Obviously not with the ID rager write up for them. Instead of some statement saying, "since you can obviously tell how we came up with the spirit options, for any new spirits made you can automatically convert them following this guide for the ID rager"

If you gain bardic performance as a bard, you also qualify as bard for items that are for a performance you have (like banner of the ancient kings) and say bard and they will affect your effective bard level for that performance.

All we get are having the specific list sometimes expanded to a new specific list.

Grand Lodge

James, I don't see how any reading here has the Oracle getting additional Spell Known from Arcane Enlightenment.

The FAQ says, roughly:
Granting Spells Known doesn't put them on your class spell list (unless it's a class feature.)

It *doesn't* say:
Any spells added to your class spell list are also automatically added to your Spells Known.

The best possible chance of Arcane Enlightenment working with a Spirit Guide Shaman, they'd have to have the Hex when they gain a level, and select the spells as Spells Known, and then still only be able to cast them while the Hex is active.

Otherwise, in addition to the crazy good "Pick some wizard spells" effect it has for shaman, you're trying to add a freebie "Also gain <Wisdom Mod> Spells Known. Which would be worth a Hex/Revelation *by itself* even without letting you cherry pick Wiz/Sorc.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
crazy good "Pick some wizard spells" effect it has for shaman, you're trying to add a freebie "Also gain <Wisdom Mod> Spells Known.

Without addressing how good the effect is, I'll address it's legality.

Quote:
Bonded Spirit (Su) A spirit guide gains one hex of her choice from the list of hexes available from that spirit
Quote:

A shaman who chooses the lore spirit can select from the following hexes.

Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman's native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare.

So it is granted by a class feature.

Quote:

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class.

So an Oracle class feature is adding spells. The FAQ clarifies that only class features default to spells known and class spell list.


I agree that it is adding spells. It is adding spells to the list of Oracle spells that she can prepare. She can then prepare these spells using her (nonexistent) prepared spell slots.


I should have been more clear with the initial post (sorry about that), but fortunately you all figured it out.

If the rule worked for the Oracle, it would perfectly match the type of character I most want to play. But the general consensus is that it would not be read that way for organized play.

I appreciate that most of you have explained your position and acknowledged the potential ambiguity (at least as perceived by less-experienced players such as myself).

However, I'm not sure if I see how the New Spells FAQ directly relates to this topic, which leaves me still wandering why there isn't an FAQ or Errata for this specific topic, given how many times it has come up.


Ambiguity? There's no ambiguity. Oracles do not prepare spells. Full stop. There isn't a FAQ for this topic because it works like pearls of power do for spontaneous casters - it doesn't.


James Risner wrote:

The clarification comes form 3.5 Glossary which was punted in Pathfinder.

Quote:
known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.

You could consider it an unwritten rule.

In any event, there are many legal ways to do this.

Take a Magus with Greater Spell Access:
Spells given: 2 Wizard spells of each level

You add two non-Magus spells to your magus spellbook, then you retrain Greater Spell Access to something else.

Now you have 2 known spells in your magus spellbook, but you can't prepare them.

Another way is for a wizard to "make their own" a former magus spell book containing magus only spells. That wizard knows those magus spells. But can't cast them.

I don't think we can take anything from 3.5 that did not make it over into Pathfinder and just consider it an "unwritten rule". (As well, the glossary term is actually different - "known spell" versus "spells known", and when dealing with defined terms that would be relevant.)

Of course, in this case there is certainly no need to go searching through a prior game edition for unwritten rules, because we have actual written rules on this topic, none of which equate preparing spells in a spellbook with the spells known feature for spontaneous spellcasters. In other words, the term "spells known" has a specific meaning in Pathfinder and applies in respect of spontaneous casters (see, for example, the Expanded Arcana feat which adds to spells known, and very explicitly applies only to spontaneous casters).

I'd therefore maintain my view that the Spells Known FAQ has no relevance to this question. The hex language does not mention spells known, and only mentions spells which a Shaman can prepare.

On a RAW reading of the hex, I agree with the others that this does not appear to have any effect for a Spirit Guide Oracle because they do not prepare spells. While I see it as reasonable for a GM to consider the intent of the hex and allow it to add spells onto the Oracle list, the Oracle would still have to find some way to obtain them as spells known (either through the usual mechanics of the class, or the Expanded Arcana feat, for example).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The Steel Refrain wrote:
actually different - "known spell" versus "spells known...

When someone replies with something like this, you know their mind is made up and they are unwilling to accept any logic, facts, or reason.

The spells known FAQ didn't fix any issues that used the word "known spell" or "spell known". But it fixed Known spell issues that didn't also add to your class spell list.


James Risner wrote:
The Steel Refrain wrote:
actually different - "known spell" versus "spells known...

When someone replies with something like this, you know their mind is made up and they are unwilling to accept any logic, facts, or reason.

The spells known FAQ didn't fix any issues that used the word "known spell" or "spell known". But it fixed Known spell issues that didn't also add to your class spell list.

James, you appear to have dimissed my repsonse in its entirety, while only citing to a very small part of it. Furthermore, the small part which you cited was actually placed in parentheses because it was an aside which didn't really impact my central point -- namely that you're citing to a prior version of the rules which has no bearing on what we're talking about, and certainly doesn't create some sort of 'unwritten rule' that all PF players should somehow be aware of and abide by.*

To suggest I'm being close-minded is unfair. I think that if you consider the fullness of my various responses on this topic, you will see that I've shown a very open-minded approach to this whole question, even looking up support for your assertions myself.

If I were more cynical, I might think that your response was meant to shift the discussion away from the fact that you were wrong in your assertion on the spellbook issue. I note that you haven't directly addressed the fact that the written rules (from PF) clearly contradict your assertion regarding spellbooks, instead citing to the 'unwritten rule' derived from a prior version, and then citing to a corner case of how a Magus might use feat retraining to get spells from the wizard list in its spellbook without being able to cast them.

Based on the progression of our discussion to date, I think we can likely agree that continuation of the discussion is unlikely to produce an overly satisfactory resolution for either of us. I'm therefore content to end the discussion at this point, with my position on the relevant question being found in my last response.

*: Of course, I do continue to maintain that when you're looking at terms found in a glossary, the specific language is important. The key distinction here, however, is the fact that we're talking about a term used in 3.5 versus a term used in PF. In other words, they are different not only because the language is different, but because they come from different versions.

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:
FAQ wrote:

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class.
So an Oracle class feature is adding spells. The FAQ clarifies that only class features default to spells known and class spell list.

Arcane Enlightenment adds spells *to your class spell list*, not "to my list of spells known." Literally no part of the FAQ applies except "not on my spell list."

The FAQ doesn't say "any class feature that adds spells to your spell list also adds them to your spells known." It says "any class feature that adds spells known also adds them to your class spell list (and non-class features don't.)" Known implies on class spell list, NOT the reverse.

If Arcane Enlightenment said "add all Wizard/Sorcerer spells to the Shaman class spell list" there's no possible reading where an Oracle with it would also gain hundreds of Spells Known. An inquisitor who used the Druid spell list instead wouldn't have every Druid Spell Known.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The Steel Refrain wrote:
Based on the progression of our discussion to date, I think we can likely agree that continuation of the discussion is unlikely to produce an overly satisfactory resolution for either of us.

On that we can agree. There isn't a snipit of a rules blurb that has yet to be found, the two sides have the same rules and FAQ to prove their position. The issue is that the interpretations differ.

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
Arcane Enlightenment adds spells *to your class spell list*, not "to my list of spells known." Literally no part of the FAQ applies except "not on my spell list."

Actually:

Quote:
list of shaman spells she can prepare

I read that as the opposite, as a list of spells known (as you may only prepare spells known.)

At this point I don't think everyone can be brought on the same page without a new FAQ.


you are literally changing the words to make your view possible.

List of spells the shaman can prepare.
That doesn't say spells known.
Oracles don't have spells they can prepare.
Why do you think that granting the oracle the ability to add to the list of spells they prepare would do anything?

Yes, I think the ability should be changed so that it does something useful, but that doesn't change what is clearly said by the text.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:
Yes, I think the ability should be changed so that it does something useful, but that doesn't change what is clearly said by the text.

I will say that I hope if this gets FAQ it gets changed to not work for Oracles, as it would be broken.

So in short, I hope I'm wrong on a FAQ outcome.

I've been wrong about future FAQ very few times, because a lot of FAQ deviate from some "literal" word to use the root meaning. I believe the root meaning is that this adds spells to spells known that can then be cast.


This seems sort of like the issue the Daring Champion has where it gets precise strike but doesn't actually have a swashbuckler level.


Note:
The following question is not regarding the "legality" of the interpretation, only the balance. If you see fit to respond, please keep that in mind.

Question:
If the Arcane Enlightenment Hex were house-ruled to grant a number of Sorcerer/Wizard spells to the Oracle's spell list and Spells known (for the day, these being removed if another Hex is chosen), how exactly would that make the Oracle overpowered?

I'm especially curious because the Oracle is giving up three Revelations of his/her Mystery for the spells, and even then the Oracle has to reduce the investment in the other attributes to bolster Intelligence and Wisdom to the point where the new spells become significant. For most characters this won't net them more than 1-3 spells, for which the highest level spell gained is no higher than 4.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Bill1138, each level you gain a way to swap out the Arcane Enlightenment spells. So eventually they will be higher level spells.


James Risner wrote:
Bill1138, each level you gain a way to swap out the Arcane Enlightenment spells. So eventually they will be higher level spells.

Incorrect. Because the oracle would have to choose the hex again each day decide to pick the Lore Spirit, they would select different spells each time.

Bill1138 wrote:

Note:

The following question is not regarding the "legality" of the interpretation, only the balance. If you see fit to respond, please keep that in mind.

Question:
If the Arcane Enlightenment Hex were house-ruled to grant a number of Sorcerer/Wizard spells to the Oracle's spell list and Spells known (for the day, these being removed if another Hex is chosen), how exactly would that make the Oracle overpowered?

I'm especially curious because the Oracle is giving up three Revelations of his/her Mystery for the spells, and even then the Oracle has to reduce the investment in the other attributes to bolster Intelligence and Wisdom to the point where the new spells become significant. For most characters this won't net them more than 1-3 spells, for which the highest level spell gained is no higher than 4.

Assuming hypothetically they could cast those spells this would be very powerful because it would effectively allow Oracles to poach the best spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list and change them daily to suite their needs. The selected spells will limited by their WIS bonus due to the ACG, but honestly even with a 10 base and a +6 Headband, the 3 best Sorcerer/Wizard spells you need each day is really awesome. Especially since unlike some similar abilities (Dreamed Secrets, Ancient Lorekeeper) you can get up to 9th's with Arcane Enlightenment.

While Shamans can already do that, Oracles are spontaneous casters which make allowing the spells to be spells known would be a big boost in versatility since they could use them as needed through the day without needing to prepare them.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Anzyr wrote:
Incorrect. Because the oracle would have to choose the hex again each day decide to pick the Lore Spirit, they would select different spells each time.
Quote:
Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells with a new spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

You missed the last sentence of Arcane Enlightenment.


James Risner wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Incorrect. Because the oracle would have to choose the hex again each day decide to pick the Lore Spirit, they would select different spells each time.
Quote:
Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells with a new spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
You missed the last sentence of Arcane Enlightenment.

You missed that you don't keep that Hex. And that you pick a new Arcane Enlightenment Hex the next day. At which point you can pick new spells. That line is only relevant if you are foolish enough to be Lore Spirit Shaman and actually pick Arcane Enlightment as one of your "fixed" Hexes instead of taking Arcane Enlightenment with Wandering Hex/Spirit Talker like a sane person. And Spirit Guide works just like Wandering Hex does for Shaman. Except for of course the fact that Oracles can't prepare the spells.


Have you taken into account that the Oracle's spells are based on his Charisma, whereas these hypothetical Sorcerer spells require Int=10+(Spell Level)?

How about the character only getting a number of Sorcerer spells equal to the Wisdom modifier?

You're not going to have Oracles with 3+ spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list casting 9th level spells because the point-buy system simply won't allow them to have the ability scores required to do so.

On top of that, the Oracle would be sacrificing 3 revelations from its Mystery for this. The Oracle is paying heavily for this power, and I would argue appropriately paid for and balanced relative to the Ancient Lorekeeper.


Bill1138 wrote:

Have you taken into account that the Oracle's spells are based on his Charisma, whereas these hypothetical Sorcerer spells require Int=10+(Spell Level)?

How about the character only getting a number of Sorcerer spells equal to the Wisdom modifier?

You're not going to have Oracles with 3+ spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list casting 9th level spells because the point-buy system simply won't allow them to have the ability scores required to do so.

On top of that, the Oracle would be sacrificing 3 revelations from its Mystery for this. The Oracle is paying heavily for this power, and I would argue appropriately paid for and balanced relative to the Ancient Lorekeeper.

You need a 13 in INT and a 10 in WIS with a +6 Headband to cast 9ths and get 3 spells. That's not exactly a back breaking requirement. And if Arcane Enlightenment was the *only* ability you got for sacrificing three mysteries, your point would be more relevant. You are heavily discounting the versatility of adding 9 new spells to your spells known from your chosen mystery. Not to mention the Spirit ability and Greater Spirit ability. That's effectively trading 3 mysteries for 9 new spells known, a hex, and two abilities.

Of course, you could just use Ancient Lorekeeper or Dreamed Secrets instead, especially since those methods of gaining Sorcerer/Wizard spells actually *work* for Oracles.


yeah, this archetype is already probably one of the best for oracle. If this hex worked for them I'd make them the best.

Pair this with the lore mystery.
Lore is giving you free int at lv7 that scales for a free inherent bonus.
And gives you cha to AC.

meaning you can be a caster oracle, no str or dex, and because CHA still have great initiative, AC, and stats to have pumped up your con, int, and wis while maxing your CHA. half-orcs can get 8/7/12/12/14/20. Humans and Half-elves can trade to get a floating +2 to any stat besides charisma and aasimar has +2 to wis.

So we easily have the stats to abuse this before factoring a headband.


Bill1138 wrote:

Have you taken into account that the Oracle's spells are based on his Charisma, whereas these hypothetical Sorcerer spells require Int=10+(Spell Level)?

How about the character only getting a number of Sorcerer spells equal to the Wisdom modifier?

You're not going to have Oracles with 3+ spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list casting 9th level spells because the point-buy system simply won't allow them to have the ability scores required to do so.

On top of that, the Oracle would be sacrificing 3 revelations from its Mystery for this. The Oracle is paying heavily for this power, and I would argue appropriately paid for and balanced relative to the Ancient Lorekeeper.

My Oracle in a very high-powered game has managed to get 10 wizard spells (high stats plus headband). They are extremely useful. However, my GM does not allow me to select a different set of these each day, so trading one out per level is the only change I can make. It is still extremely powerful and would be unbalancing in a low-powered game.

It is likely to be ok in a medium game, since I'd end up with less spells.


My Gm also allowed my oracle to use it, although also limited changing it one spell per level. But by RAW it's the same argument as pearls of power (they don't work).

And you don't need Wisdom at all because spirit guide says: "She uses her oracle level as her shaman level, and she switches Wisdom for Charisma and vice versa for the purpose of determining the hex's effects."


Yeah you would, this hex uses cha for shamans, meaning is uses wis for oracles.


How available are +6 headbands in your games? I think your DMs are more generous than mine. The thought of finding or affording to buy one never occurred to me.

Having read through the spell lists, it appears to me that where the Oracle most benefits from Arcane Enlightenment would be the lower-level combat spells.

The Oracle has Restoration and utility spells for all levels.
The Oracle's upper-level combat spells are comparable to the Sorcerer's upper-level combat spells.
The Oracle's lower level combat spells are primarily summoning weapons/armor and magically enhancing them.

So gaining the Sorcerer's lower-level combat spells, wouldn't allowing the Oracle to fight at range (like a Sorcerer) for the lower levels be the most game-impacting effect?

Also, if the Oracle were to pick a Spirit Guide other than the Lore Spirit, the Oracle can still get 9th Sorcerer/Wizard spells like Time Stop without using Arcane Enlightenment, so keep that in mind.


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We've just reached 16th level, and have made our own headbands and other magic items.

At low level, I was using ny oracle spells to buff/repair damaged allies and the wizard spells (only a few then) to Animate Dead for free with Blood Money.

At medium levels, I was spamming Haste and Fireball. Like being a Sorceror who also had healing abilities. And Confusion. And Fly.

Now, I have Limited Wish, Planar Binding, and other useful spells while still casting Haste in combat and using Heal and Harm quite often.

So, overall, these spells allowed me to operate as the sole primary caster when necessary, but the out-of-combat versatility has been the biggest advantage.


Anzyr wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Incorrect. Because the oracle would have to choose the hex again each day decide to pick the Lore Spirit, they would select different spells each time.
Quote:
Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells with a new spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
You missed the last sentence of Arcane Enlightenment.
You missed that you don't keep that Hex. And that you pick a new Arcane Enlightenment Hex the next day. At which point you can pick new spells. That line is only relevant if you are foolish enough to be Lore Spirit Shaman and actually pick Arcane Enlightment as one of your "fixed" Hexes instead of taking Arcane Enlightenment with Wandering Hex/Spirit Talker like a sane person. And Spirit Guide works just like Wandering Hex does for Shaman. Except for of course the fact that Oracles can't prepare the spells.

No, there's nothing that says that the new arcane enlightenment can be different than the old one. The specific wording of the hex overrides the-flavor-text-can-be-interpreted-as-access-to-infinite-spirits.


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whew wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Incorrect. Because the oracle would have to choose the hex again each day decide to pick the Lore Spirit, they would select different spells each time.
Quote:
Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells with a new spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
You missed the last sentence of Arcane Enlightenment.
You missed that you don't keep that Hex. And that you pick a new Arcane Enlightenment Hex the next day. At which point you can pick new spells. That line is only relevant if you are foolish enough to be Lore Spirit Shaman and actually pick Arcane Enlightment as one of your "fixed" Hexes instead of taking Arcane Enlightenment with Wandering Hex/Spirit Talker like a sane person. And Spirit Guide works just like Wandering Hex does for Shaman. Except for of course the fact that Oracles can't prepare the spells.
No, there's nothing that says that the new arcane enlightenment can be different than the old one. The specific wording of the hex overrides the-flavor-text-can-be-interpreted-as-access-to-infinite-spirits.

*sigh* Each day you select a new Arcane Enlightenment. And when you select the Arcane Enlightenment Hex what do the rules say?

Arcane Enlightenment wrote:
The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare.

You do that each time you select the Arcane Enlightenment Hex, because each time it is a new Hex. Please cite me a ruling that you must make the same selections as you did last time. Actually don't bother, no such rule exists.


Bill1138 wrote:

How available are +6 headbands in your games? I think your DMs are more generous than mine. The thought of finding or affording to buy one never occurred to me.

Having read through the spell lists, it appears to me that where the Oracle most benefits from Arcane Enlightenment would be the lower-level combat spells.

The Oracle has Restoration and utility spells for all levels.
The Oracle's upper-level combat spells are comparable to the Sorcerer's upper-level combat spells.
The Oracle's lower level combat spells are primarily summoning weapons/armor and magically enhancing them.

So gaining the Sorcerer's lower-level combat spells, wouldn't allowing the Oracle to fight at range (like a Sorcerer) for the lower levels be the most game-impacting effect?

Also, if the Oracle were to pick a Spirit Guide other than the Lore Spirit, the Oracle can still get 9th Sorcerer/Wizard spells like Time Stop without using Arcane Enlightenment, so keep that in mind.

Wealth has an expected progression and is part of the game. At high levels (where you would need a +6 to get access to 9th's) the game expects you have such items. If the thought of never buying, crafting, or finding such an ordinary item at levels 17+ would never have occurred to you, the issue is with your DM.

The real power of Arcane Enlightenment is not combat spells. It's versatility. You can use it to grab high powered, long duration spells (Command Undead, Explosive Runes, Shrink Item) and powerful high level spells on the fly without having to tie yourself down to selecting those spells. Of course, if you need a long range combat option it can do that also. And that's why it's powerful. Its not just one tool, it's a whole set of tools that you can pick to match the job.

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