Flying, Stunning, RAW... and other issues. looking for an official ruling


Rules Questions

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So I have browsed the issue and it looks like this has been argued a few times. I am currently arguing this on another forum and I think it's time for a serious ruling.

Rules as Written:
"A fly skill check requires no action, as it is generally part of another or a reaction."

Previous to stating this it has the following:
"Flying maneuvers:
Fly less than half your movement rate: DC 10
Hover: 15..."

The Fly spell states "Flying is no more difficult than walking" and then refers you back to the fly skill.

Analyzing every bit of everything that mentions flying it looks like we get the following:

Flying ALWAYS requires an action. The act of flying is an action "no more difficult than walking."

Hover is part of the flying action. If you can't take actions, you can't fly... therefore you can't hover.

Any condition that denies you actions, RAW, denies you flight causing you to fall.

Because flying is always a move action, you can never take a full attack action from the air unless you charge and have pounce (or similar).

This is how it looks going over every inch of the rules as written.

If this is NOT rules as intended, or if I am misinterpreting things, please let me know.

Liberty's Edge

Calthropstu wrote:
Because flying is always a move action

Sez who?

The book text;
"Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

I don't see the word 'move' in there at all.

Full attack is an action... which would require a DC 15 fly check to hover to pull off.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
Because flying is always a move action

Sez who?

The book text;
"Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

I don't see the word 'move' in there at all.

Full attack is an action... which would require a DC 15 fly check to hover to pull off.

"A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action..."

Right there is where it says it. "A fly check is made as part of another action."

If you're making a fly check, it means you are making an action that requires a fly check: namely, flying.


so wait there is people that think that if your flying and stunned you hover there? You lose your dex can't defend yourself but somehow still keep flapping those wings eh?

So glad I run home games and don't have to worry about following RAW to the letter(whether or not raw supports it.)


Ok, I am the person who has this conversation with the OP. It was about the fly spell, not flying in general. Cal thinks because the line "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally." means it takes a action to hover because walking takes a action to use.Iw oudl also like to add home rules dont matter as they vary from table to table so in our discussion we need a strict RAW. I am going for still flying while stunned.


Calthropstu wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
Because flying is always a move action

Sez who?

The book text;
"Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

I don't see the word 'move' in there at all.

Full attack is an action... which would require a DC 15 fly check to hover to pull off.

"A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action..."

Right there is where it says it. "A fly check is made as part of another action."

If you're making a fly check, it means you are making an action that requires a fly check: namely, flying.

...

*sigh*

Missing something, aren't we?

"...or as a reaction to a situation."

If you're making a fly check, it means you are making an action that requires a fly check, OR you are making a fly check as a reaction to the situation that your character finds themself in. Since hovering presumably doesn't require spending a move action, and there are no other listed actions it would fall under, it has to be a reaction to a situation i.e. the flyer didn't take an action to move that turn (whether they can't take an action, or because they chose not to is irrelevant), and the fly check to hover is a reaction to that situation.

EDIT: Bahaha, this is actually answered in a FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Flight and Magical Flight: Can a paralyzed or stunned creature keep flying with magical flight? Does a creature with magical flight not apply bonuses or penalties to Fly checks because it doesn’t have a “natural” fly speed? Does flying make a creature immune to being flat-footed?

No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0. Despite the fact that the Fly skill mentions that bonuses and penalties from maneuverability apply to creatures with natural fly speeds, they apply for any fly speed. If they didn’t apply to creatures that gained flight artificially or through magic, then those maneuverabilities (like the listed good maneuverability for the fly spell) would have no game effect. Finally, the statement “You are not considered flat-footed while flying” means that flying (unlike balancing using Acrobatics or climbing) doesn’t automatically make you flat-footed or force you to lose your Dexterity bonus to AC; it doesn’t mean that flying makes you immune to being caught flat-footed.

Flying requiring an action appears to contradict the book which makes no such stipulation, but FAQs contradicting everything else is nothing new. Stunned flyers fall. End of story, apparently.


Snowblind wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
Because flying is always a move action

Sez who?

The book text;
"Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

I don't see the word 'move' in there at all.

Full attack is an action... which would require a DC 15 fly check to hover to pull off.

"A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action..."

Right there is where it says it. "A fly check is made as part of another action."

If you're making a fly check, it means you are making an action that requires a fly check: namely, flying.

...

*sigh*

Missing something, aren't we?

"...or as a reaction to a situation."

If you're making a fly check, it means you are making an action that requires a fly check, OR you are making a fly check as a reaction to the situation that your character finds themself in. Since hovering presumably doesn't require spending a move action, and there are no other listed actions it would fall under, it has to be a reaction to a situation i.e. the flyer didn't take an action to move that turn (whether they can't take an action, or because they chose not to is irrelevant), and the fly check to hover is a reaction to that situation.

You are missing something as well:

Hover is listed as a FLYING MANEUVER. Which means it is taken as part of the flying action.

For situations, it specifically lists example situations (caught in strong winds, et al) SEPARATE from the flying maneuvers. The only RAW interpretation here is that hover is part of the fly action, and is one of the maneuvers the fly action allows.

No where does it say that hovering counts as standing still, and it flat out states it is actually significantly more difficult. "Standing still" is mentioned NOWHERE in regards to flying. RAW, flying is movement, and the only way to be standing still is to NOT be flying.


Snowblind wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
Because flying is always a move action

Sez who?

The book text;
"Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

I don't see the word 'move' in there at all.

Full attack is an action... which would require a DC 15 fly check to hover to pull off.

"A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action..."

Right there is where it says it. "A fly check is made as part of another action."

If you're making a fly check, it means you are making an action that requires a fly check: namely, flying.

...

*sigh*

Missing something, aren't we?

"...or as a reaction to a situation."

If you're making a fly check, it means you are making an action that requires a fly check, OR you are making a fly check as a reaction to the situation that your character finds themself in. Since hovering presumably doesn't require spending a move action, and there are no other listed actions it would fall under, it has to be a reaction to a situation i.e. the flyer didn't take an action to move that turn (whether they can't take an action, or because they chose not to is irrelevant), and the fly check to hover is a reaction to that situation.

EDIT: Bahaha, this is actually answered in a FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Flight and Magical Flight: Can a paralyzed or stunned creature keep flying with magical flight? Does a creature with magical flight not apply bonuses or penalties to Fly checks because it doesn’t have a “natural” fly speed? Does flying make a creature immune to being flat-footed?

No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for

...

I don't really care what the FAQ says to be honest, It contradicts the book way to often to be even credible at explaining rules. I follow RAW in internet discussions, not how the desingers think the rules work.


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I think there is really nothing more to say on it then. Your going to go with your way no matter what so why argue it?


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I think there is really nothing more to say on it then. Your going to go with your way no matter what so why argue it?

This is part of a the lovely fighter v wizard threads on another board, where everyone says he is wrong. I will keep my way because he cannot prove that by RAW I fall when stunned.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I think there is really nothing more to say on it then. Your going to go with your way no matter what so why argue it?

^^This^^

It's a question in the Rules forum, so the FAQ is the most valid answer you'll get.


Remember the fun time the developers made that mistake with monks flurries, Casuing the sohei archetype and the Zen archer archtype to flat out not work and it contradicted every premade monk character they had. That caused alot of issues. They may have fixed it but in this case they still contradict rules and rules are the only thing I can follow online. If they errated it then that would be fine but in this case? No.


Nevermine guys, whole thing was a mistake on my part misremembering the flight speed of fly meaning he could not even get up to this point.


Coretron03 wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I think there is really nothing more to say on it then. Your going to go with your way no matter what so why argue it?
This is part of a the lovely fighter v wizard threads on another board, where everyone says he is wrong. I will keep my way because he cannot prove that by RAW I fall when stunned.

Oh dear...this doesn't sound much like a fun game.


The FAQ/errata explicitly states that you fall if you're stunned or otherwise lose all actions - there's nothing to be debated there.

It should also be noted that most GMs agree that hovering is a free action - you can't do it if you're stunned, but if you're not, you can still make full attacks while flying. If this weren't the case, flying monsters with lots of attacks would be a lot less dangerous.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Coretron03 wrote:
I don't really care what the FAQ says to be honest, It contradicts the book way to often to be even credible at explaining rules. I follow RAW in internet discussions, not how the desingers think the rules work.

Your two statements contradict.

RAW is how the rules read, not how you'd like them to read.

Only the FAQ with "Errata pending" language change the rules. All other FAQ just explain the words as written meaning.

If your interpretation differs, change your interpretation to match.


There are different types of flight. Most of the sections of the Fly skill (like needing to make checks to remain in the air after getting attacked or colliding) refer to flight 'using wings'. That's because winged flight requires physical movement to remain aloft. (Move at least half fly speed; Move less than half fly speed with a DC10 fly check; don't move at all (hover) with a DC15 fly check) I've never ruled that non-winged flight requires these motions to stay aloft, so consequently, they don't require fly checks either. You still would need to make fly checks for special maneuvers (sharp turns, rapid climbs, etc).

This is backed up by the Paralyzed condition:

paralyzed wrote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

Only winged creatures fall when paralyzed. If being held up by magic, the inability to move doesn't cause a fall.


CraziFuzzy wrote:

There are different types of flight. Most of the sections of the Fly skill (like needing to make checks to remain in the air after getting attacked or colliding) refer to flight 'using wings'. That's because winged flight requires physical movement to remain aloft. (Move at least half fly speed; Move less than half fly speed with a DC10 fly check; don't move at all (hover) with a DC15 fly check) I've never ruled that non-winged flight requires these motions to stay aloft, so consequently, they don't require fly checks either. You still would need to make fly checks for special maneuvers (sharp turns, rapid climbs, etc).

This is backed up by the Paralyzed condition:

paralyzed wrote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
Only winged creatures fall when paralyzed. If being held up by magic, the inability to move doesn't cause a fall.

For home game rulings, this is fine, but the FAQ (quoted by Snowblind above) is the most valid resource in the Rules forum, and rules totally differently.

Liberty's Edge

Calthropstu wrote:

"A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action..."

Right there is where it says it. "A fly check is made as part of another action."

If you're making a fly check, it means you are making an action that requires a fly check: namely, flying.

Again, that says you make fly checks as part of other actions. Not just move actions. If you are in winds that would blow you away and you want to hover so that you can make a claw attack and provide flanking for an ally... you need to make a fly check. You aren't moving anywhere. There is no move action involved. You need to make the fly check to enable your attack action. If you fail, the wind moves you and you cannot attack.

The text specifically says that fly checks do not require an action. Inserting a move action to enable the fly check is thus directly contradictory.

You make fly checks when the actions you are taking, move or otherwise, require them.


Wu Nakitu wrote:
For home game rulings, this is fine, but the FAQ (quoted by Snowblind above) is the most valid resource in the Rules forum, and rules totally differently.

Another example of why FAQ's should only exist for a short duration, and should quickly go into the errata process. An errata to this would involve actually going through and hashing out the discrepancies in the flight rules, instead of the FAQ's overruling 'most conservative' effort. MOST the wording involving flying seems to call out the different in winged and magical flight, including most the flight checks - but the FAQ, in an effort to make a simple answer, ignores this. Which would make sense if you were forced into making a quick decision - but that is not what should remain as the long-standing rule. It just seems odd that getting damaged or running into something while flying under the fly spell cannot cause you to fall (presumably, because disrupting your physical motion is irrelevant when its not your physical motion keeping you aloft), but being hit by Color Spray will automatically make you fall (presumably, because it disrupts your physical motion).

Hopefully errata does come from this, because it really would NOT be difficult to spread the winged/magical difference among the few references to flight in the rules (Fly spell, Fly skill, Paralyzed condition, etc). I think most the rule issues are in the CRB, so it's only one book that needs to be fixed.

(Yet another example of how a rule system this big NEEDS to move away from print as the standard method of distribution. It is insane that there are FAQ's still present from 2010, instead of the rules being clarified in subsequent editions of the book).


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Wu Nakitu wrote:
For home game rulings, this is fine, but the FAQ (quoted by Snowblind above) is the most valid resource in the Rules forum, and rules totally differently.

Another example of why FAQ's should only exist for a short duration, and should quickly go into the errata process. An errata to this would involve actually going through and hashing out the discrepancies in the flight rules, instead of the FAQ's overruling 'most conservative' effort. MOST the wording involving flying seems to call out the different in winged and magical flight, including most the flight checks - but the FAQ, in an effort to make a simple answer, ignores this. Which would make sense if you were forced into making a quick decision - but that is not what should remain as the long-standing rule. It just seems odd that getting damaged or running into something while flying under the fly spell cannot cause you to fall (presumably, because disrupting your physical motion is irrelevant when its not your physical motion keeping you aloft), but being hit by Color Spray will automatically make you fall (presumably, because it disrupts your physical motion).

Hopefully errata does come from this, because it really would NOT be difficult to spread the winged/magical difference among the few references to flight in the rules (Fly spell, Fly skill, Paralyzed condition, etc). I think most the rule issues are in the CRB, so it's only one book that needs to be fixed.

(Yet another example of how a rule system this big NEEDS to move away from print as the standard method of distribution. It is insane that there are FAQ's still present from 2010, instead of the rules being clarified in subsequent editions of the book).

Can you point to me where it changes the rules for magical flight vs winged flight? I read the rules pretty thoroughly, and apart from tanglefoot and similar items, no where does it state "winged" vs "magical"

I believe you may be remembering things from 3.5 vs pathfinder. That is some of the wording that was removed.


Calthropstu wrote:

So I have browsed the issue and it looks like this has been argued a few times. I am currently arguing this on another forum and I think it's time for a serious ruling.

Rules as Written:
"A fly skill check requires no action, as it is generally part of another or a reaction."

Previous to stating this it has the following:
"Flying maneuvers:
Fly less than half your movement rate: DC 10
Hover: 15..."

The Fly spell states "Flying is no more difficult than walking" and then refers you back to the fly skill.

Analyzing every bit of everything that mentions flying it looks like we get the following:

Flying ALWAYS requires an action. The act of flying is an action "no more difficult than walking."

Hover is part of the flying action. If you can't take actions, you can't fly... therefore you can't hover.

Any condition that denies you actions, RAW, denies you flight causing you to fall.

Because flying is always a move action, you can never take a full attack action from the air unless you charge and have pounce (or similar).

This is how it looks going over every inch of the rules as written.

If this is NOT rules as intended, or if I am misinterpreting things, please let me know.

Can you be more specific what your question is?

If your question is "does flying always require a move action to stay aloft" the answer is no. That's what the DC 15 hover check is for, you stay in place without expending an action whatsoever.

That's why the rules say "usually" part of another action, but you usually make the fly check in response to trying to do something fancy while flying like climbing at a faster rate than normal, or turning extra sharp. Flying straight forward at constant elevation doesn't require a check. Hovering in place (which doesn't expend an action) does require a check because most things need to move to actually stay aloft.


Claxon wrote:


Can you be more specific what your question is?

If your question is "does flying always require a move action to stay aloft" the answer is no. That's what the DC 15 hover check is for, you stay in place without expending an action whatsoever.

That's why the rules say "usually" part of another action, but you usually make the fly check in response to trying to do something fancy while flying like climbing at a faster rate than normal, or turning extra sharp. Flying straight forward at constant elevation doesn't require a check. Hovering in place (which doesn't expend an action) does require a check because most things need to move to actually stay aloft.

Well the first portion of my question has been answered by FAQ.

The FAQ ruled it that I was correct on the part that stunning causes you to fall.

That ruling implies you are incorrect: hovering is a move action. You are accelerating upwards at exactly 3.8 meters per second. Hover, looking at the rules, is a move action: ie, a maneuver you can take as part of the flying move action. The ruling that stun causes you to fall not only supports this interpretation but actually kind of confirms it.


Stunned is an awful condition, no one likes it. From what I've seen the flyer would fall, not hover in place.

Source: Dragon Ball Z.


Calthropstu wrote:

Can you point to me where it changes the rules for magical flight vs winged flight? I read the rules pretty thoroughly, and apart from tanglefoot and similar items, no where does it state "winged" vs "magical"

I believe you may be remembering things from 3.5 vs pathfinder....

I'm not remembering 3.5, I've never actually played it. Without the FAQ, a paralyzed creature flying via a fly spell does not fall (at least there is nothing that states it does). The paralyzed condition only discusses winged creatures, and even states the REASON they fall (which would not apply to magical flight).

paralyzed wrote:
A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls.

Stunned doesn't mention flight at all.

In the Fly skill, the check that needs to be made when a creature takes damage or collides with something mid-air both are only made during winged flight, NOT magical flight.

Basically, SOME of the rules do differentiate between the two, and logically, I think they should, since magical flyers don't need to keep flapping to keep flying, but some parts don't differentiate. The FAQ definitely doesn't differentiate, and even explicitly changes the way paralyzed characters are affected. If you were to make a ruling prior to the FAQ, then going off the only things that cause a flying creature to fall (failed fly check after damage or collision, or paralysis) which only talk about winged flight, then you'd likely differentiate the two for other unwritten situations based on that difference. Failing to hover is the only thing that doesn't specify a difference, and the direction that would have made more sense would have been to clarify THAT part, instead of changing everything else.


Calthropstu wrote:
Claxon wrote:


Can you be more specific what your question is?

If your question is "does flying always require a move action to stay aloft" the answer is no. That's what the DC 15 hover check is for, you stay in place without expending an action whatsoever.

That's why the rules say "usually" part of another action, but you usually make the fly check in response to trying to do something fancy while flying like climbing at a faster rate than normal, or turning extra sharp. Flying straight forward at constant elevation doesn't require a check. Hovering in place (which doesn't expend an action) does require a check because most things need to move to actually stay aloft.

Well the first portion of my question has been answered by FAQ.

The FAQ ruled it that I was correct on the part that stunning causes you to fall.

That ruling implies you are incorrect: hovering is a move action. You are accelerating upwards at exactly 3.8 meters per second. Hover, looking at the rules, is a move action: ie, a maneuver you can take as part of the flying move action. The ruling that stun causes you to fall not only supports this interpretation but actually kind of confirms it.

You are correct that a creature that using wings to fly that is stunned or paralyzed would begin to fall (at 500ft per round) to the ground.

However, you are still wrong about hovering. It is not an action. It does not require any movement to hover. And you are definitely wrong about 3.8m per second, because it would be per second per second BUT THIS ISNT FRAKING PHYSICS, ITS A TABLE TOP GAME.

Please get these ideas out of your head because it's simply not how the game works.

Fly checks are usually made as part of another action usually part of a move action. That doesn't mean always, it means usually. Hovering checks are really the 1 main exception, aside from high winds or in air collisions (both of which rarely ever come up).

Liberty's Edge

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Calthropstu wrote:
That ruling implies you are incorrect: hovering is a move action.

"Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action"

You are never going to 'get it' if you insist on ignoring statements patently contradicting your pre-suppositions.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:

Can you point to me where it changes the rules for magical flight vs winged flight? I read the rules pretty thoroughly, and apart from tanglefoot and similar items, no where does it state "winged" vs "magical"

I believe you may be remembering things from 3.5 vs pathfinder....

I'm not remembering 3.5, I've never actually played it. Without the FAQ, a paralyzed creature flying via a fly spell does not fall (at least there is nothing that states it does). The paralyzed condition only discusses winged creatures, and even states the REASON they fall (which would not apply to magical flight).

paralyzed wrote:
A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls.

Stunned doesn't mention flight at all.

In the Fly skill, the check that needs to be made when a creature takes damage or collides with something mid-air both are only made during winged flight, NOT magical flight.

Basically, SOME of the rules do differentiate between the two, and logically, I think they should, since magical flyers don't need to keep flapping to keep flying, but some parts don't differentiate. The FAQ definitely doesn't differentiate, and even explicitly changes the way paralyzed characters are affected. If you were to make a ruling prior to the FAQ, then going off the only things that cause a flying creature to fall (failed fly check after damage or collision, or paralysis) which only talk about winged flight, then you'd likely differentiate the two for other unwritten situations based on that difference. Failing to hover is the only thing that doesn't specify a difference, and the direction that would have made more sense would have been to clarify THAT part, instead of changing everything else.

Actually, the rules DO state it falls, I had come to the conclusion from reading the rules, and didn't even know the FAQ had that in it. It does not EXPLICITLY state it, however, the combination of rules regarding flight, magical flight, and other statements in the rules regarding stunned et al pretty much led me to the conclusions mentioned in my original post.

If I noticed it, and those that wrote the FAQ noticed it, and others noticed it, how is it you and others do not? Yes, it's kind of vague, but it IS there. The only reason the FAQ is needed on this is because well... it needs a much higher reading comprehension level than average to notice it. And well... for a game that is supposed to be playable by both adults and kids, that is not a good thing.


Sorry double post


CBDunkerson wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
That ruling implies you are incorrect: hovering is a move action.

"Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action"

You are never going to 'get it' if you insist on ignoring statements patently contradicting your pre-suppositions.

I'm not ignoring anything, you are.

The check itself is not the action. The action is "Flying."

Hover is listed as a "flying maneuver" ie: a maneuver that is enabled by the fly action. NOWHERE does it state that hover is not considered a move action, nor does it state that it counts as "not moving" for the round.

Now, the fact that your character does not leave his square IS an argument one can take, however not all movement requires you to leave your square. Hover, going by the rules as written there, is a maneuver done as part of the fly movement action that moves you zero spaces.

This is why stunned causes you to fall: you cannot perform the fly action.

Seriously, it really is all there. As such, flying creatures do not get their full attacks when hovering, stunning et al causes you to fall, and a plethora of other things happen as well. Maybe it was intentional by the designers, maybe it's an oversight... there are certainly a large number of oversights in the game.


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Calthropstu wrote:
Hover is listed as a "flying maneuver" ie: a maneuver that is enabled by the fly action. NOWHERE does it state that hover is not considered a move action, nor does it state that it counts as "not moving" for the round.

Why would it need to state that not moving isn't a move action?

The fly skill does not say it alters the actions required to do things in any way, so we default to normal movement rules. If you move up to your move speed, a move action. If you move up to twice that much, full-round action. If you don't move, or take a five-foot step, no action is required.

Calthropstu wrote:
This is why stunned causes you to fall: you cannot perform the fly action.

The devs have in the past suggested that reason you fall is that Fly is a Dex check and you can't do those when paralyzed or stunned.


Calthropstu wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
That ruling implies you are incorrect: hovering is a move action.

"Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action"

You are never going to 'get it' if you insist on ignoring statements patently contradicting your pre-suppositions.

I'm not ignoring anything, you are.

The check itself is not the action. The action is "Flying."

Hover is listed as a "flying maneuver" ie: a maneuver that is enabled by the fly action. NOWHERE does it state that hover is not considered a move action, nor does it state that it counts as "not moving" for the round.

Now, the fact that your character does not leave his square IS an argument one can take, however not all movement requires you to leave your square. Hover, going by the rules as written there, is a maneuver done as part of the fly movement action that moves you zero spaces.

This is why stunned causes you to fall: you cannot perform the fly action.

Seriously, it really is all there. As such, flying creatures do not get their full attacks when hovering, stunning et al causes you to fall, and a plethora of other things happen as well. Maybe it was intentional by the designers, maybe it's an oversight... there are certainly a large number of oversights in the game.

Flying is not listed as an action in the table regarding "Actions in Combat," so the idea that "Flying" is, in and of itself, an action, is wrong, because both the skill description, and the table, say they aren't actions. So, that's two rules sources that say they aren't actions, and a singular implausible intent that says they are; needless to say, you're fighting uphill in this part of the battle.

Your character doesn't have to leave his square if he doesn't want to, nor does he have to move. Relevant text regarding Fly Checks:

Fly (Check) wrote:
You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees, and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies depending upon the maneuver you are attempting, as noted on the following chart.

Bolded relevant parts of the entry.

So, you really only make a check when performing a flight maneuver, and says that if you go against the normal rules of flying (which not only implies that the flying rules are generic, but also that they can be broken if you so solemnly wish), you have to make a check to do so.

Several examples of them are in the table they describe, which includes going against the non-bolded portions of the above text (such as turning or flying at angles larger than 45 degrees); I'm certain being able to hover in the same square, without moving, would easily fall under that pretense.

You're also incorrect about why the Stunned condition causes creatures who are flying to fall. The reason why is because you cannot do ANYTHING, whether it's taking any action, or performing any activity (including flight), you full-stop CANNOT DO IT.

I mean, by the logic of flight not being an action, and your bi-polar claim of "If it's not an action, I can still do it," that means I could likewise take a 5-foot step while Stunned, right? And provide flanking for my other teammates and perform Attacks of Opportunity even though I'm Stunned (since it doesn't take an action to make Attacks of Opportunity, and if you threaten the area, you still flank)? What about delaying until after the Stunned condition takes effect (and therefore, still being able to act within that round, cheesing the results of the Stunned condition)?

When you throw your logic in those identical "non-action action" situations, not only does your assumption create ridiculous shenanigans, but it also breaks other parts of the game that your interpretation results in.

So yes, it was an oversight. But it's not our oversight, or the developers' oversight. Well, I suppose you could say that it was ours. But something from that word is missing. Something with both a longer and shorter line intersecting at a 60 degree angle into a singular line. Like this.

Liberty's Edge

Coretron03 wrote:
Ok, I am the person who has this conversation with the OP. It was about the fly spell, not flying in general. Cal thinks because the line "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally." means it takes a action to hover because walking takes a action to use.Iw oudl also like to add home rules dont matter as they vary from table to table so in our discussion we need a strict RAW. I am going for still flying while stunned.

Calthropstu should look the rules about taking a 5' step. You can walk without taking any action.

Calthropstu wrote:

You are missing something as well:

Hover is listed as a FLYING MANEUVER. Which means it is taken as part of the flying action.

Can you show the piece of the rules that speak of a "flying maneuver"?

You know, you can take a 5' step while flying level or descending, that require a fly check as almost certainly you will move elss than half your movement, but it cost no action.

Liberty's Edge

Calthropstu wrote:


That ruling implies you are incorrect: hovering is a move action. You are accelerating upwards at exactly 3.8 meters per second. Hover, looking at the rules, is a move action: ie, a maneuver you can take as part of the flying move action. The ruling that stun causes you to fall not only supports this interpretation but actually kind of confirms it.

An acceleration of 9,8 m/s (in vacuum), or use feet if you are unsure of the conversion. Avoid writing random numbers.

BTW, you are aware that standing require to use a lot of muscles and, for most species, isn't automatic when asleep? You are resisting the same acceleration toward the ground that the hoovering creature is resisting.
Now we need an action to stand still unless we are prone?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Calthropstu wrote:

The check itself is not the action. The action is "Flying."

Hover is listed as a "flying maneuver" ie: a maneuver that is enabled by the fly action. NOWHERE does it state that hover is not considered a move action, nor does it state that it counts as "not moving" for the round.

Now, the fact that your character does not leave his square IS an argument one can take, however not all movement requires you to leave your square. Hover, going by the rules as written there, is a maneuver done as part of the fly movement action that moves you zero spaces.

The problem with this argument is that hovering is not an action. There is no such action listed in the Actions in Combat table. If you are going to claim this is the rule, you need to provide the rule stating it is an action. "It doesn't say it isn't" does not prove that it is. (But it's good to see you still playing, in any event.)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:

The check itself is not the action. The action is "Flying."

Hover is listed as a "flying maneuver" ie: a maneuver that is enabled by the fly action. NOWHERE does it state that hover is not considered a move action, nor does it state that it counts as "not moving" for the round.

Now, the fact that your character does not leave his square IS an argument one can take, however not all movement requires you to leave your square. Hover, going by the rules as written there, is a maneuver done as part of the fly movement action that moves you zero spaces.

The problem with this argument is that hovering is not an action. There is no such action listed in the Actions in Combat table. If you are going to claim this is the rule, you need to provide the rule stating it is an action. "It doesn't say it isn't" does not prove that it is. (But it's good to see you still playing, in any event.)

My argument is this:

Flying is a move action. It is a method of movement.
Just as tumbling maneuvers (avoiding attacks of opportunity, getting through an enemy square etc) are movement, just as jumping maneuvers are movement (vertical, horizontal), just as drawing a weapon is movement.

Hovering is a maneuver you can take while flying. Of course this whole argument can be eliminated if we consider that "Hovering is a free action you can take while in flight and relies on the fly skill."

It supports the FAQ ruling, eliminates any confusion (since you cannot take actions while stunned, and since it would be a free action, you'd fall) eliminates the possibility that how I am reading it becomes an issue, and we all go on perfectly happy.

Is flying a move action? Obviously. If you have to perform a check under the fly skill to perform a maneuver, how is that NOT a part of the fly movement action?

If I AM correct, it severely limits flying creatures in many ways: no full attacks in the air (unless you decide to not fly and begin plummeting... in which case you fall 300 feet, and can perform your full attack... which doesn't really make sense.) No spells with 1 round casting time. No full round actions either.

Making hover a free action in its own right eliminates all confusion, and I think is the action needed with this.

Grand Lodge

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Calthropstu wrote:
Is flying a move action? Obviously. If you have to perform a check under the fly skill to perform a maneuver, how is that NOT a part of the fly movement action?

Not obviously. Flying is a method of movement. It is a move action to move while flying. Flying itself is not an action, as the Hover maneuver is not listed as an action anywhere. But if you fail the check to continue flying, you will stop flying.

In short, Hover is already a free action unless proved otherwise.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
Is flying a move action? Obviously. If you have to perform a check under the fly skill to perform a maneuver, how is that NOT a part of the fly movement action?

Not obviously. Flying is a method of movement. It is a move action to move while flying. Flying itself is not an action, as the Hover maneuver is not listed as an action anywhere. But if you fail the check to continue flying, you will stop flying.

In short, Hover is already a free action unless proved otherwise.

It SHOULD be, but is not explicitly stated as such. It needs to be explicitly stated as such.


Remaining standing up isn't an action, but being put to sleep or unconscious makes you prone. It's not a huge stretch to say that while hovering isn't an action, it's slightly more difficult than standing in one place, so dazed and stunned make you fall, even if they don't make you fall prone when standing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Calthropstu wrote:
It SHOULD be, but is not explicitly stated as such. It needs to be explicitly stated as such.

And to this I point to the "Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action." text of the Fly skill. I understand you disagree with this argument, but I can't find any clearer way to say "Hover is a non-action."


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
It SHOULD be, but is not explicitly stated as such. It needs to be explicitly stated as such.
And to this I point to the "Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action." text of the Fly skill. I understand you disagree with this argument, but I can't find any clearer way to say "Hover is a non-action."

That is a non argument. The fly check itself isn't the action. HOVER is the action, a subset of the fly action. Continuing to spout that shows your reading comprehension is SEVERELY lacking.

Grand Lodge

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And this is why I'm glad you don't play PFS anymore.

Hover requires a Fly check. Hover is not listed as an action. Fly checks are not listed as an action. PROVE that Hover is an action, and I will agree with you.

Liberty's Edge

Calthropstu wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Calthropstu wrote:
It SHOULD be, but is not explicitly stated as such. It needs to be explicitly stated as such.
And to this I point to the "Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action." text of the Fly skill. I understand you disagree with this argument, but I can't find any clearer way to say "Hover is a non-action."
That is a non argument. The fly check itself isn't the action. HOVER is the action, a subset of the fly action. Continuing to spout that shows your reading comprehension is SEVERELY lacking.

To repeat ti again, can you show from where this "fly action" come? So far you haven't proved anything, beside your lack of rule comprehensions.

To repeat it again, I can take a 5' step, it is a no action and then, to stay in flight, I will have to make a fly check. That don't change it to an action.

Now let's see, hover: where it is cited?
A feat that allow to do that without the need for a fly check
the fly maneuver
a few random pieces of text that are less relevant
From what I see none of those pieces of text say it is an action.

The text is clear:

PRD wrote:
Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

You are taking a full attack? Doing that require you to hover? Splendid, you have to make a fly check. But nowhere it say that hovering is an action. You are making your check as part of the full attack action.

You want to hover in place while delivering a speech? Fine, as part of your action (speaking and using diplomacy or perform, oratory) you have to take your hover fly check (and look like a fool if you fail). Again, you are taking it as part of an action, but the action isn't hoover, is using diplomacy.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

And this is why I'm glad you don't play PFS anymore.

Hover requires a Fly check. Hover is not listed as an action. Fly checks are not listed as an action. PROVE that Hover is an action, and I will agree with you.

I already did.

Hover: listed as a maneuver under the fly skill.
The fly skill: listed as a skill that relates to the movement type: fly. While flying is "no more difficult than walking (as per the spell, fly), it is still movement.

To perform a maneuver under a subsection of movement has to be movement, does it not? I can't think of anything else it could possibly be. It is not listed as an action, it is listed as a maneuver... under a skill dealing with the movement type flight. If it's a maneuver allowed by movement, how is it not movement itself under the rules?

Grand Lodge

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Calthropstu wrote:

Hover: listed as a maneuver under the fly skill.

The fly skill: listed as a skill that relates to the movement type: fly. While flying is "no more difficult than walking (as per the spell, fly), it is still movement.

No. Flying is not movement. Flying is not a move action. Moving while flying is a move action.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wait, I've got it. Bestiary Universal Monster Rules.

Flight (Ex or Su) wrote:
A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.

Hopefully this lays everything to rest.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

Wait, I've got it. Bestiary Universal Monster Rules.

Flight (Ex or Su) wrote:
A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.
Hopefully this lays everything to rest.

Not quite far enough actually, but it's a start. Ceasing flight is not exactly hovering is it? And ceasing flight while flying would cause you to plummet.

My argument is simply state: Hover is a free action. It needs to be explicitly stated as an errata. Solves ALL issues. It is not already stated, and when I was researching this, there were several dozen threads started here and elsewhere regarding stun, flight and hover.

So to throw out the "fly checks are non actions" and proclaim it "cut and dry" is ridiculous. More people than just I have run into this issue: but explicitly stating hover as a free action solves every possible rules question regarding it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Calthropstu wrote:
Not quite far enough actually, but it's a start. Ceasing flight is not exactly hovering is it? And ceasing flight while flying would cause you to plummet.

"A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

Flying is a free action, as mentioned above. You make your Fly check to hover as part of this free action. Where is the problem?


Calthropstu,

I know this isn'ta convincing argument, but you really should consider that when everyone in a thread but you is agreeing on how something is run by the rules that it's higjly likely you've reached an incorrect understanding.

Part of you problem is that you have convinced yourself that flying in and of itself is a move action, but it is not.

You only expend a move action while flying if you actually move from your square.

I don't know how you reached the incorrect conclusion that it required you to expend a move action and thus always prevented a full-round action from occurring but I assure you this isn't the case. If it was, it would likely be much more clearly stated in the rules.

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