Adventure to seduce my sister... Into RPGs, of course!


Advice

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My sister is visiting for almost two weeks... starting in 10 days. It just occurred to me that since she's finally expressing some interest in RPGs, I could run a mini-adventure for my husband Debnor & her.

The obvious thing to do would be to pick up a module, but no: I'm determined to do this one homebrew. I'll have questions as a result for that board, but I think you all here are the right ones to ask this basic question: What level would be best for a starting PC?

I don't think it's 1st, and in any case, the monsters I want this party to tackle are too high of a CR. I've established, with massive amounts of help from the GM’s Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters, that I need either three 5th-level PCs or two 6th-level ones.

Luckily, Debnor is a very experienced player, and would have no trouble running two PCs. I want "fun" furry races (including some homebrew), but otherwise everything will be out of the Core Rulebook. Not the Beginner's Box.

I'll be knocking Monks & Paladins clear out of the gameworld, and Clerics would be serving principles of nature rather than gods as such (it's got distant deities). Plus, I will strongly encourage {my sister} away from prepared casters like said Clerics, along with Druids & Wizards -- and I think even Bards or Fighters are too tough to play well if you don't know the book. If she follows my advice, she'd be looking at Barbarian, Ranger, or Rogue. Is Sorcerer so bad to add to this short list???

I want a nature-based tribal society, so classes like Shaman & Warpriest would normally be gimmees, and I'd love to throw Hunters in, too. {EtA: In fact, when I look at it, almost all the classes of the ACG would fit well -- Skald, Bloodrager... Just not Investigator or Swashbuckler. <sigh>} But I'm afraid to hand a complete newbie too many mechanics, too many sources. Even letting Debnor play something tribal but non-Core... I'm dubious.

Certainly, Core mechanics all the way, so there's no archetypes or FCB. Only Core feats & spells. Oh, one non-Core mechanic: I'll be using the Automatic Bonus Progression from Unchained; I think it will simplify picking starting equipment. Is this doable at 5th or 6th level, for a complete novice?


I'd start with a simpler RPG than PF, but if there's a big margin in your own familiarity then it makes sense to go with what you know.

Something like a 6th level ranger, barbarian or sorcerer should be good to start with. A rogue though needs a bit of system mastery to not be frustrated with, more so than the sorcerer.


Honestly, it's hard to give advise on starting levels without knowing the specific type of adventure you're trying to run.

Different levels of play give different types of play experiences, especially if you're trying to include things like environmental effects or other specific challenge types.

That said, Ranger is an excellent class for new players as it's very thematic, but most of its mechanics are pretty intuitive compared to most class abilities. Sorcerer also isn't bad if you're picking out the spells and don't have to worry about "buyers remorse" for the character as much as having a brand new player choose sorcerer might normally entail.


My first suggestion would be to do all of the work creating characters beforehand. Fully build and equip 5-7 characters to fit different themes before she arrives. When it comes time to play, give a rough description of each character's focus and abilities, and let her pick. After the game starts, if she's not having fun after a few combats, see if she'd like to swap to something else.

Knowing more about your sister would help as well. Does she like playing with complex rules systems? Does she want to just relax and toss some dice around? Does she have a preference to magic or mundane? Offense or support? I prefer to play wizards and greatly enjoy having many moving parts, but when I introduced my wife to the game, we found that she likes straight forward characters that hit things in the face with a weapon. She actually started with an archer to begin with, but eventually found that barbarian was her favorite since it was simpler and effective. Special Note: She almost gave up on the hobby until she played a truly amazing game of We Be Goblins Too, where the ridiculous antics of goblins had us all cracking up the whole night.

As for levels, I think somewhere in the 3-6 range is a good spot for getting enough flavorful abilities (and out of the 1 hit instant death zone), without getting too complex.

Suggestions for possible pregenerated characters based purely on complexity and ease of use for a newcomer:
1. Martials:
- Fighter (any level, built to use sword and shield, maybe TWF with shield bash?)
- Paladin (level 4 is probably a sweet spot, any weapon)
- Ranger (level 6, with a bow, pick about 40% of enemies are main favored enemy, 20% second, and a mix of the rest, level is important so don't have to deal with cover and shooting into melee rules)
- Barbarian (any level, big hammer or sword, good idea to have 2 character sheets, one raging and one nonraging to cut the amount of table math)
- Unchained Monk (I know you mentioned they don't exist, but mechanically the unchained monk is quite fun and easy to play, and level 5 gets very fun with flying kick)

2. Skills:
- Rogue (use unchained, and level 4, for adventure design, add multiple traps to highlight rogue skills, possibly opportunity for stealth)
- Bard (Level 4-5, pick easy spells and have enemies appropriate for their use, make sure there's something to do after inspire courage goes up like fight with a sword to prevent boredom, explain how to make knowledge checks to identify enemies)

3. Magic. For prepared casters, a list of prepared spells she can cross off as she casts helps. For spontaneous, check boxes for each level of spell. Helps highlight the difference:
- Wizard (level 5, evoker, with a couple utility spells and a handful of premade scrolls, give simple spell descriptions)
- Cleric (any level, Fire and Healing domains are great, balanced stats capable of wading into melee help give the flavor of the class well)
- Oracle/Sorcerer: (level 4 or 6, similar build to cleric/wizard, respectively)
- Druid: (level 4 or 6, include separate character sheet for wild shape with 1-3 animal options)

And with all that said, there are a number of publicly available pregenerated characters that are not bad available here at level 1, 4 and 7. The easiest to use characters are the fighter, rogue, cleric, sorcerer, paladin.


I think that yes, I had better tell you a bit about the world as I know it so far. I'm going to put the long description at the bottom for anyone who actually wants the detail.

The terrain is lightly forested hills in a sub-arctic region. Although the story starts very near the winter solstice, with lots of soft snow falling, the PC races have a racial feature that keeps them from needing to make cold environment Con checks. However, the snow may prove to be difficult terrain, depending on racial features.

There are only "furry" PC races like catfolk -- and all of them are nomadic tribes except for my version of ratfolk. The PCs may face fierce animals (from grizzly bears to wolverines), plus lots of giant subtypes (mainly ogres & trolls here in the hills), and dragon subtypes (luckily, only drakes & kobolds around here). Above all, they will face non-occult monstrous humanoids (especially winter hags). As a result, another PC race is the changeling. What the PCs are less likely to face on this continent are undead, fey, and outsiders (unless summoned).

I'm going to give you only the story seed, but I think that's enough. This is still very much a rough draft.

Players stay out, upon pain of a terrible curse:
Worrisomely, it has been getting colder and darker year after year for all of the young PCs' lives. It is full dark now for more of the day in winter, which lasts for more of the year, than when they were born. The artifact holding Winter at bay has been losing power to the Winter Hags year after year. Only this year, when all the tribes gather to celebrate the Sunbirth Festival, the solstice, the first ones to arrive discover that the artifact has been stolen! Clearly, someone needs to find it before the solstice...

Environment, TL;DR:
There are no Core races here in the land where my story takes place. Instead, various furry tribes live in these lightly wooded hills very close to the Arctic circle. (The mountains to the north are fully arctic, but we're not traveling there in this adventure.) I've identified Bear-kin (3rd party Ursine, tweaked), Cat-kin, (Paizo's Catfolk), Dog-kin (homebrew), Fox-kin (variant of Paizo's Kitsune), Raven-kin, (Paizo's Tengu, tweaked). The various tweaks are mostly to fit a race's description to my world, although some racial feats are being eliminated. OTOH, the shapeshifting Kitsune will require a full variant to become merely "furry" Fox-kin, but it should be readily doable. All of these races will have a custom Animalistic subtype.

All of these races are nomadic in a land lush with game. Cat-kin hunt elk. Fox-kin trap smaller prey like beavers, minks (or sables), otters, and rabbits. Bear-kin tackle mastodon hunts, but primarily seek to hunt monsters. Dog-kin herd goats & shaggy ponies. Raven-kin serve all of them as scouts & messengers, while taking the best bits of whatever is found for themselves.

And then there's the Rat-kin, often "mispronounced" by others as "Reek-kin" (Paizo's Ratfolk, tweaked; also Animalistic). They are odd, settling into crowded hillside caverns & dug-in warrens. While they are not the sort who would mine extensively, they serve a great purpose for this society by farming a bit outside their warrens. Grain is too intensive to raise & to bake, but root & bulb vegetables, and herbs, add bulk and flavor to the other races' stew. Which means that Rat-kin have a valuable commodity to trade for meat -- and for the beautiful fabric, furs, and ivory that the other races collect.

During the short summers, they take those commodities to a port on the southwestern coast, where they trade for metals. The continent southwest of this one isn't that far of a sailing voyage away, but is really a world away. It has different races and a more settled culture that will mine metals, but it is under the tight grip of Autumn -- and the Undead.

Our land, you see, is the land under the brutal grip of Winter and of the Monstrous Humanoid. And in these hills, it especially teems with hags (winter hags in particular). Although more ordinary "monsters" that fit the cold terrain are present as well: fierce animals (from grizzly bears to wolverines), giant subtypes (around here, ogres, ogrekin, & trolls; maybe River or Taiga Giants) and dragon subtypes (luckily, not true dragons in the hills, but forest & shadow drakes, plus kobolds).

As a result of all the hags, there is one other PC race: the Changeling. Hags definitely pick off stray characters from the animalistic tribes to eat, and in the case of young men, well... Nine months after the young man has disappeared, a shapechanged woman fitting the tribe in question appears with a newborn baby girl, sets it down in front of the elder matron, and leaves without a word. The infant always has mismatched eyes, and often other characteristically pale coloring of skin, fur, or feathers, but otherwise looks like her father's tribe. However, she has the racial characteristics of the changeling, not of her animalistic father. Even though the tribes have learned that abandoning or physically mistreating these girls earns the ire of nearby hags, they certainly recognize these girls as changelings and don't give them normal childhoods. Many clans raise such girls to become Shamans or Druids, and take care to instill morals. (Which morals depends on the race, of course.) Sometimes they fail, and the girl goes off to become a Hag.

I must admit, I'm considering letting all of the animalistic races take a Wild Shape of their natural animal form. I also want them to get a Ranger's Wild Empathy ability, limited to animals of their type. (Maybe changelings should get a hag form in exchange for both of these.) Furthermore, and this strongly concerns environmental challenges: as natives of Winter, all of the races, including Changeling, never make Constitution checks when dealing with cold ambient temperatures -- but suffer -4 on such a roll when dealing with hot ones. (In other words, I don't want my PCs to freeze to death. Those Con rolls in Core are nasty!) All of these features should be raised in Homebrew, for sure.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Frankly I'm not sure if Pathfinder is a good intro RPG without some major tweaking.

It also greatly depends on what kind of game do you want to run?

How much rules cruch?
How gritty is the setting?
How carebear?

For example it may be better to de-emphasize the rules if the players want more story-based. I would look at the Dungeonworld or FATE systems for ideas on how they do things.

I would definitely use the spontaneous casters over prepared. Better to have to reference say a dozen spells than have to learn a hundred.

In addition I would allow free rebuilds/retrain until the players get a better 'feel' for their characters. Maybe the players has a specific concept and the skill/feat/loadout package doesn't quite fit their idea of the role they wish to potray.

Good luck on bringing more folks over to the darkside! :)


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Just... wrong.


I like Friendly Neighborhood Glabrezus recommendation of making several character to choose from. If that seems daunting, my suggestion was going to be to communicate with the sister beforehand and figure out what she would be interested in playing; what she wants her character to be able to do or be good at.

Has she shown interest in any other classic fantasy settings? Like maybe the LotR movies? If so, you could use those settings that she has seen and somewhat understands to draw parallels; find out which character she liked the most or would be interested in playing as and then making a similar character. Obviously the story and setting would be different, but the actions and flavor of the character could carry over.


Now that I've finished my description of the environment, I want to get to comments -- you've all made some really thought-provoking ones!

I should mention that my sister reads a lot of sf & fantasy, and likes stories with strong world-building & especially strong character development over stories with gimmicks & plot. And she's not in fact entirely a novice -- a friend played one session with her last Christmas, using a loose, homebrew Star Wars game. She loved it! So in terms of how much crunch I want, well, I like lots of it -- but obviously, I need to challenge myself to relax, play mapless, and mostly let the group together tell a good story. I'm grateful to you all for challenging me to think about this now as I shape the adventure.

I have reason to hope that my story seed will appeal right now, at the winter solstice IRL, due to her mythological interests. Also, she identifies herself with the jaguar -- and I hope that my winter story's cat-kin, though based on the snow leopard, are similar enough to light up her eyes. (I figure that the odds that she'll want to play a cat-kin are a good 85-90%, but just when a GM counts on something...) Still, one of the furry races should appeal to her, given her known interests. In short, I'm using the only familiar (to me) game system that can convey a story that I think she'll like. I don't want to dig into a new game system on top of writing a short adventure in a week!

However, I want to make it as approachable as possible. So I'm jumping at the suggestion that Friendly Neighborhood Glabrezu made of creating pregens. It's fabulous! The only trick is that since I can't be totally sure that my sis will pick a cat-kin, I'd have to leave race off the pregen sheet. I could also tell her she could switch two points in the ability scores. That would probably make a simple, flat-cost system for ability score buys best, with a 15-point buy (plus the extra point from 4th level). The pre-gens (before racial bonuses) would have a maximum stat of 16, and all the ability scores would for sure be even. I wouldn't allow even the 2-point last-minute switch to raise a stat above 16 before racial bonuses, due to the cheap buy costs. (And due to a desire to put a survivable character into the hands of a newbie.)

At that point all of the details would still have to be filled in, but that wouldn't take that long, and would give me a chance to explain some of the mechanics. The only problem I can foresee is stuff like extra spells for the sorcerer based on a high stat. To use that class as an example, I think we'd have to pre-select spells for a CHA of 18, and then let a player who somehow ended up with a lower stat pick the ones to cross off their list. Note to self: We could even generate a couple of different spell lists, one focusing on divination & enchantment perhaps, and another on direct damage. And then I just roll with her choices. I simply have to keep in mind the most important principle you've been telling me: the key is to have fun and adjust the story to fit the character she has.

FNG, the other big thing that you clarified for me is that there's completely different issues with "hard to play." There's "hard to build," "hard to implement" (during the game), and "hard to enjoy." Well, the only way to anticipate "hard to enjoy" is to give my sister a range of options to pick from, and allow her to make adjustments or even switch altogether as she feels out the game. But there's a number of classes, like fighters or spontaneous casters both, that are a lot harder to build than to implement. Yeeha! They become fully legitimate choices. So now I'm looking over the options I have.

For one thing: Sorcerer & bard are the only Core classes that benefit from the cat-kin bonus to Cha, and we've ruled out bard. And of the classes that benefit from their Dex bonus, rangers & rogues need Wis too. (Admittedly, now that I'm doing pre-gens, we'll have a fighter with two choices for feat options -- archery and 2WF/Weapon Finesse.) If my sister really wants a divine caster, there are no options in Core that don't rely on Wis. In conclusion, I think I have to give my cat-kin an extra RP by eliminating the catfolk's Wis penalty. So I'll have a hunter race that isn't half-blind. What a concept!

Second point: If I do pregens, can I pick classes appropriate for the setting from other books? If we're handing her a sheet with, let's say, a specific oracle or bloodrager written up, is it a problem that it's not from Core? Certainly, eliminating the Wis penalty makes a lot of the non-Core classes I'm most enamored of for my setting -- hunter, shaman, skald, slayer, and warpriest -- accessible. (I'd also like witch, incidentally, to be available.)

I'm going to wait to hear what people have to say about all this before I start sorting out a smaller list of specific classes. For instance, IF I include non-Core classes, I'll leap on slayer w/ trap abilities over rogue -- but there's no point in asking avr about how playable such a pre-gen would be for a beginner before I figure out if I'm even looking at classes outside of Core.

Thank you all for your input -- even the ones cautioning me against what I want to do. It's helpful to reinforce that this isn't going to be truly crunchy Pathfinder.


If you are just going to offer a handful of pregens, I think it's safe to go outside of Core. The problem with adding additional options for a new player is they can get overwhelmed. If you make a handful of flavorful and thematic options to cover various roles, then you can pull from any material you want.

This is also pretty safe if you are planning to allow a lot of retraining/switching/changing as she goes.


bitter lily wrote:
The only problem I can foresee is stuff like extra spells for the sorcerer based on a high stat. To use that class as an example, I think we'd have to pre-select spells for a CHA of 18, and then let a player who somehow ended up with a lower stat pick the ones to cross off their list.

Dear, you're being confused again. Sorcerers don't modify their spells known by stat, they modify their spells per day.

bitter lily wrote:
And of the classes that benefit from their Dex bonus, rangers & rogues need Wis too.

Yes, rangers need Wisdom. But rogues? OK, they want Perception, but they have their trap-finding bonus. They probably want Sense Motive as well. And Will saves are always useful. But a -1 stat modifier on a non-primary stat is not much of a penalty. It's an impediment to be gotten around, in order to play a character that will be enjoyed.

bitter lily wrote:
(Admittedly, now that I'm doing pre-gens, we'll have a fighter with two choices for feat options -- archery and 2WF/Weapon Finesse.)

I do believe that you are having pronoun trouble in this sentence. It has been made clear that I will be doing the pregens. So no, those options will be for the ranger -- the combat style class abilities make them better than fighters at that. The fighter options will likely be shield-basher and/or multi-striker. The barbarian options will likely be 2-H weapon swinger or grappler. Though I can see that I'm going to be spending a lot of time poring over class guides over the next few days....

taks wrote:
Just... wrong.

How very helpful. So I invite you to elaborate. What is wrong? The setting? The limiting of choices for a new player? Maybe the concept of introducing a new player to the game at all? From your brevity, we're free to assume any or all of those! As well as whatever you actually meant, which I'm sure I've missed. But you gave us no clues to go by.


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I think taks is reacting to the creepy joke in the title, personally. :P


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think taks is reacting to the creepy joke in the title, personally. :P

Yes, I plead guilty; it was horribly creepy. Taks, will you forgive me? (And to anyone else creeped out.)


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think taks is reacting to the creepy joke in the title, personally. :P

It was a jest made in poor taste, to be honest.

Just what one might expect of a Lannister...


my advice is to start at level 3 it gives them enough resources to do things but not enough to overwhelm people plus it makes them a tad more durable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Eldritch Scion Magus. Pathfinder's take on the classic spell and sword slinger. Spontaneous caster.

Bladebound may make it even more interesting...


Ryzoken: Lannister?

Back to classes.
The races -- ability bonuses and minuses
Bear-kin ~~ +2 to Str & Con; -2 Cha {modified from +2 Str/Wis; -2 Dex}
Cat-kin ~~~ +2 to Dex & Cha; -2 Con {modified from +2 Dex/Cha; -2 Wis}
Dog-kin ~~~ +2 to Int & Wis; no -2
Fox-kin ~~~ +2 to Int & Cha; -2 Str {modified from +2 Dex/Cha; -2 Str}
Rat-kin ~~~ +2 to Dex & Int; -2 Str
Raven-kin ~ +2 to Dex & Wis; -2 Con

Yes, this isn't a high-strength crowd. The bear-kin really stand out! But given the classes I'm looking at, I think we can manage with a potentially low-strength party.

Sorcerer: The "gimmee" arcane class, although not as thematic as some other options. It's a spontaneous caster that hits the cat-folk bonuses -- assuming that we *ahem* Debnor, who has graciously agreed to do the pre-gens, goes for a ranged-spell build, which I hope he'll do. At low levels, the only real choice is that of bloodline; everything else just gets written onto the character sheet. The key would be to pick bloodlines that (a) are thematic and (b) have easy to use arcana & early powers. Of the Core bloodlines, only Destined and a few Draconic (White, Silver or Green) would fit thematically. However, nearly all of the ones in the APG would be fine -- and Boreal is downright fabulous.

And nooooooo, we don't need to know the final stats to figure out a list of spells known -- drat it, I hate it when I get confused on that point! When I do my own characters I take better care to read the text carefully. Feh!

Witch: I want the class at least in the background; it's wonderfully thematic. And it's not that hard for a newbie, despite being a prepared caster. Her familiar is going to know only a short-enough list of spells that it won't be hard to create a Word doc for my sister to have informed choices. Ideally, my sister would have two patrons to choose between, but that's just a difference in spell list. And I can tell you that I've enjoyed playing a witch, even though I'm terrible with prepared spellcasters, because the hexes kept me going all day long. Mind you, I rarely used a spell: most likely, I had three prepped that I never needed, and only one where I actually needed four! Frustrating. But the hexes kept me feeling useful. It's two combat mechanics (spells & hexes), but the hexes are easy to understand and powerful. Oh yes, we'd have to provide the most obvious choices for last-minute selection of a familiar (raccoon, housecat, tiny dog, fox, rat, and bird), but I believe that's just a bonus to add to the character sheet.

Shaman: I have to drop this class, no matter how thematic it might be. Up until I took a better look at it, I'd thought it was fairly analogous to the witch. And sure, it's got hexes. But on a quick check, it looks like the shaman may have twice as many 1st-level spells as the witch does (depending on how many are Core). Worse, by far: the witch gets a limited number of that limited list pre-stocked in her familiar. The shaman gets access to the whole blasted list of shaman spells every day. Plus, the class has a mix of spontaneous & prepared slots -- and spontaneous is good, except that it's another mechanic we'd have to explain. And then at 4th level, the shaman gets wandering spirits -- a short list for a daily pick, to be sure, but also yet another mechanic. Just too much going on here.

Now I still need a major divine magic class, and my sister might pick it, so I want to reject Cleric & Druid. I think it's got to be...

Oracle: Not as thematic as the shaman, but a whole lot cleaner. It's a spontaneous caster, and hits a cat-kin's bonuses nicely. By 5th level, the Clouded Vision curse isn't all that bad (60-ft Darkvision), while still allowing chances for RP. The mysteries just add organically included features like class skills and bonus spells, and by 5th level, two revelations -- just one extra mechanic, and not necessarily a hard one. Debnor could do two oracles, in fact, one for the Life Mystery, and one that's more combat-oriented. They all get the Cure spells, and he'd make sure that the combat one still picked the most important other healer spells like Lesser Restoration.

Hunter: I'd have had to include this as a choice, if the PCs weren't themselves animal-kin. Still, it fits a trope of fantasy literature. But it's frustrating to manage an animal at lower levels, without truly telepathic communication. Debnor would have to carefully build six possible companions -- they're a lot more important than a witch's familiar! And a ranger is likely going to be more useful to a party. The only catch is that a ranger, definitely not much of a spellcaster at 5th level, would be the only Wis-based caster on the list. Spontaneous Wis-based casters are pretty hard to come by, so it's probably at the top of the also-rans.

Skald: It looks like an interesting fit for the game world, but it didn't take me long to realize that it has all the same problems as bards for a newbie. And probably an equally tough pick for any three-member party even among experienced players.

Now for the combat-specialists...

Ranger: It's a good fit for a nature-themed game world, of course; it's got great special abilities for dealing with a hostile landscape. And the class makes good combatants, Debnor says -- especially for a Dex-based character. Now that I've eliminated the cat-kin Wis penalty, I can watch my sister pick such a race & class combo without worrying. Debnor can give the Ranger the party-based "Hunter's Bond," rather than creating six weak (and probably short-lived) choices for animal companion. The first favored enemy should be animals (for RP if no other reason), but the second could be my sister's last-minute pick from a short list of likely encounters. Finally, we're looking at a prepared spell-caster, but with a highly limited number of 1st level only spells to pick, from a very short list -- and printing out a quick summary up front is downright easy!

Slayer: This is my preferred option over Rogue, assuming that the two talents chosen are Trapfinding and Trap Spotter. It really emphasizes that the character isn't so much a thief as someone who spots & disables traps. (Although of course, if presented with a very odd thing in this world -- a lock -- the slayer could go to work on it. And while locks are unusual, kobolds are not. Enough said.) I'm imagining that +2 consistent Attack & Damage (by 5th) could be very satisfying for a new player, enough to more than make up for the 1d6 instead of 3d6 sneak attack. I am very curious what you all have to think about this choice, though.

Barbarian: The bear-kin will be terribly disappointed if this class doesn't make it to the list. I've looked at the Unchained version, and I'm extremely impressed. I'm going to let Debnor check the two versions out and decide. Either way, creating two character sheets is a great idea, FNG.

Bloodrager: Yet another option I had wanted to people my world with, but am turning down after a closer look. It's been specifically recommended for beginners -- but it's too close to Barbarian, too MAD, and too complex to make it to this list. Unless... Any howls???
{EtA: As it turns out, I'm getting one from Debnor, who was looking at playing one. I'm adding it as a 7th option, after all.}

Fighter: I tend to think of the class as colorless. Compared to the other options here, I think we can dispense with it.


if you use a 18,16,14,14,12,12 array you can fix any foreseeable issues with mad characters alchemist is also a fairly simple class to play


Whenever I'm introducing someone to an rpg, I just ask them for a character that they like, someone that they'd like to play. Then I make that character (or as close as I can, considering the level they'll be starting at) for them.

Then as play begins to unfold, I ask the new player what they want to do. Next, I show them how they can (or cannot) do that with the skills/feats/items/etc. that they currently have.

I find that works well for new players as opposed to trying to get them to understand all the nuances of all their choices from the get-go.


Game of Thrones reference:
The Lannisters are one of the noble families of Westeros, notable in this context as one of their subplots involves an incestuous brother/sister pairing. Relevant given your thread title.

That said, my joke was poorly constructed, not of my normal comedic quality, and thus I must apologize. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Liberty's Edge

If you are open to 3pp, the spell-less Ranger created by Marc Radle is awesome and far less WIS-dependent than the Core Ranger


Lady-J wrote:
my advice is to start at level 3 it gives them enough resources to do things but not enough to overwhelm people plus it makes them a tad more durable.

I appreciate your advice, but 3rd is definitely going to be too weak to deal with the threats that are afoot in this world. Let me take you through the variables -- while I think them out!

Reasoning:
>> How many characters should there be? The more I've thought about it, the more I've realized that trying to use only two is hideous; too many bases aren't going to be covered. OTOH, I think that three decently designed and competently played characters can outshine a fourth in combat even when trying not to, if the fourth is decently designed but played by a complete novice to the rules. In short, my answer is three.

Of course, one option if my sister doesn't want to play the party healer is to permit myself an NPC with an archetype -- a Hedge Witch with a Healing matron and the Cauldron hex. But I'm thinking of a pony-riding rat-kin, who scuttles to safety the instant danger threatens. She would stay in camp making things while the PCs go off exploring. Still, it would mean Cure spells & Lesser Restoration at the day's end, healing through alchemical items & magic potions during it, and best of all ;), decent food. LOL, in terms of party interactions & RP, I'm better off playing an NPC than not -- it can be hard for me to keep my mouth shut! Having access to a healer back at camp definitely helps a party out, and might perhaps possibly allow three lower-level PCs to tackle the dangers of this land. Maybe we can use 3 & 1/2.

>> What level of threat should there be? The obvious answer is: a low one. However, here I'm constrained by what's easy to grab from the Bestiary, and yet interesting. And believe me, I combed the indices as thoroughly as I could for "cold" monsters. In terms of animals that like a cold terrain (the most common encounter), I found some at CR 1 or 2, and interesting ones at CR 3 to 5. In terms of cold-loving monsters, I did find ice trolls & wikkawaks at CR 4, but they look like minions to me, rather than BBEGs who could set a plot in motion. Winter hags at CR 7 were the lowest CR BBEG I could find that fit the setting. And I want more than one foe in on a given fight -- I've been convinced by the experts on this board that it creates a better encounter. So now for story reasons I'm looking at a minimum of CR 3 to 6 for minor encounters and CR 8 for a final encounter.

>> Does a lower level avoid needless complexity? What level will make for a fun level-up at the end? In short, it's going to be tough for a three-member party of less than 5th level to tackle those CRs. But maybe they can do it at 4th, if they have a fourth party member back at camp, waiting to patch them up. Is it worth trying this approach to make the PCs simpler?

The thing is, upon review I find that most of the classes I've chosen don't get very much at 5th level -- more options for spontaneous spell-casting, for instance, but at the same spell levels.

I admit that witches get a fairly big change at 5th level, since they get their first 3rd-level spells then. Pre-gen witches will require more decision-making per day at 5th level than 4th. (They have to pick between two spells that are spiffier than the rest, when they can cast only 1 + INT/day.) However, I'm not as concerned that a witch pre-generated at 5th will inherit a familiar with its 3rd-level spells already chosen, since I would allow a player to substitute spells and would include scrolls as loot.

And rangers get a second favored enemy (and a choice of where to put an extra +2) -- but since I'm going to leave that decision-making to the player last-minute, they're not losing out on focusing their character. (And rangers get their first spell/day if they don't have a Wis bonus.) I think all of this will make the class a lot more fun to play, while not adding significant complexity to a ranger with at least 12 Wisdom.

Furthermore, in all cases, if we do level-up the party, going to 6th will be a whole lot more fun than going to 5th. Even witches & rangers get some lovely goodies at 6th, and everyone else (who just yawned at leveling up to 5th) gets excited about going to 6th. So it looks like 5th-level is a fairly sweet spot for most classes, where they're "parked" waiting for a burst of power at 6th.


In short, you've challenged me to think through this more carefully, Lady-J, which I'm grateful for. But my now final answer is three 5th level PCs. If I add a camp-healer to the party, it will give me room to throw in more wolves or kobolds or other minions. Fun!

Sovereign Court

One piece of advice I want to give is about your expectations of your homebrew here. It sounds neat, and you definitely put a lot of time into it. Be ready in case your players are not as enthusiastic about it as you are. Sometimes players just want a good mystery and the specifics don't need to be detailed. Especially, for newer players. I know I stopped doing my homebrew stuff because my players just didn't appreciate what I was going for. Took my awhile to understand that. Hope your sister falls into a ring of fire over your game though!


Rerednaw wrote:

Eldritch Scion Magus. Pathfinder's take on the classic spell and sword slinger. Spontaneous caster.

Bladebound may make it even more interesting...

Thank you for mentioning this -- and yes, the spell & sword slinger is a classic, and something my sister might ask about. I had to consider the magus... very briefly, I'm afraid.

The problem is that the magus is very hard to play. Debnor is playing a blackblade now in the campaign I'm running, and already at 3rd level his PC is terrifying. But I've also seen a normal magus played in a fashion that just fell apart. The group's initial conclusion was that the class was flawed. Well, maybe it's only a problem with the base class, but that's the one I'd be using... and maybe that's a build problem (which Debnor would be addressing)... but it looks to me like it's an implementation problem. The class relies on highly limited, prepared spellcasting.

In comparison, I happen to know all too well that witches are also highly limited, prepared casters -- but when they run out of useful spells, they still have hexes that last all day. It looks like a magus with no useful spells and a dried-up arcane pool is simply a 2WF fighter missing most of their feats.

And if an archetype will fix this, that doesn't help me. I don't want to hand my sister archetypes, if you recall. My hope is that at some point she'll get interested enough to want to look up the full class description. I may have to point to a different book than the one that has the feats & spells. I may have to point to a pdf. (Most likely, I'll be pointing to the PRD on her laptop.) But I want to be able to hand her one document, and say, "These are your choices. Have fun."

End result: I'm regretfully too fearful to include the magus.


Level 3 is actually decent if you want to start with smaller things in a faraway village or the like, basically starting as a "Local girl done good" and then grow to be a big shot.

Also, I would suggest a brawler or an unchained monk if you think she might be into martial arts games, wuxia, or the like, and alchemist if she might be into that sort of pseudo-science in fantasy (or perhaps if she liked how magical potions and the like were done in the Witcher).


Lady-J wrote:
if you use a 18,16,14,14,12,12 array you can fix any foreseeable issues with mad characters alchemist is also a fairly simple class to play

Thanks for helping with the array... although you did use a wee bit more than 16 points, even after racial bonuses. :) If I subtract 2 from everything, I get 16,14,12,12,10,10 -- which leaves us with another 2 points to spend. For a MAD character, I'd think we'd want something like **16,14,14,12,10,10** (before racial bonuses). Is this good enough?

As for alchemist, that's another class that doesn't work thematically. I haven't mentioned one little detail. *ahem* Debnor, you should know something... In this land, fire attacks in general do half damage, before you save for half again (so a quarter of the original, rounded down twice). I can't double cold-based attacks, though. Does 50% more damage for cold seem unreasonably high? Warning: a lot of the monsters (as opposed to animals) have unexpectedly high resistance to cold. {If the book doesn't give them outright Immunity.} This is the land under the tight grip of Winter.

Mykull wrote:
Whenever I'm introducing someone to an rpg, I just ask them for a character that they like, someone that they'd like to play. Then I make that character (or as close as I can, considering the level they'll be starting at) for them.

Thanks for explaining this approach. I think the pregens will still be a helpful base -- we can show my sister some specific options this way, while eliminating ones that we think would be too hard to play. And the physical-combat characters are straightforward enough that I don't see a reason to try to create something new on the spot.

The full-casters are a different matter entirely. I'd still like to have one or two examples of each class fully fleshed-out and ready to fill a specific function (boreal blaster sorcerer, destined divination/enchantment sorcerer, and life healer oracle leaping to mind). But once my sister has picked a class, I can show her the fully developed character(s) and ask her if there's a different force she'd like moving in her PC's life, and perhaps name some examples. Then I'd have to see if there's a thematically-appropriate bloodline/patron/mystery that would correspond to whatever she says. She may look through what Debnor has done and be comfortable with that character -- especially if reassured that she can change things later. Or I may find myself making a caster at the last minute.

Mykull wrote:

Then as play begins to unfold, I ask the new player what they want to do. Next, I show them how they can (or cannot) do that with the skills/feats/items/etc. that they currently have.

I find that works well for new players as opposed to trying to get them to understand all the nuances of all their choices from the get-go.

I understand the value of this approach. The issue is: what do you do when they cannot do it? For instance, I was thinking of asking Debnor so that my sister would have a pool of skill pts she could assign on the fly. Assigning whole feats seems counter-productive. And she'll have the items her tribe has given her PC. Obviously, we can make note of what she'd like to change. Small changes I can just do. But what do you do?


there are some discoveries they can change alchemist bomb damage to different types. you could give it to them as a free bonus discovery the base may do fire but with one of the discoveries you can do lightning, cold, acid and at higher levels even force damage


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I would embrace the fact you are doing pregens.

- If you are writing for pregens you can do both a much more tailored story with NPCs that already have relationships to them

- You can write challenges into the story that key off the abilities or skills the pregen has - put something in there for the rogue to sneak past / climb over or something for the ranger to track or one where a caster has the perfect obscure spell

- When choosing feats for them, keep it simple - use things like toughness, skill & saving throw boosts that will be absorbed into the stats - you're writing the adventure so you can adjust for characters not being optimised horrors

I'd also use the fact you know she's keen on cat-kin. Write the story around a group of cat-kin with those making up most of the pregen options (how about 4 cat-kin to offer a range of classes and one or two friends of other races so there is an option). Let the initial plot direct them to do cat like things (e.g. hunting, sneaking, acrobatics, the importance of staying clean)

If it gets going well and you play for more than a short time, then offer the chance to rebuild the chosen character a bit and tinker a little.

Final tip - one of the cat-folk racial options gives a climb speed - this is something that can be immensely fun to play and takes no system knowledge to make use of - definitely give some of the pregens this option.

Liberty's Edge

This is why I stick to Reddit. Didn't even blink at the title (giggled a little though) and then I open the thread and people are actually offended.

Anyway, just chiming in to say I don't see any issues with what you've got lined up so far. I dropped in to a group I found on FB with zero roleplaying experience about six months ago and had a blast, despite having no idea what I'm doing.

The most *important* bit of advice I can give you is to have whoever she plays with take the lead while she watches and explain EVERYTHING. My first session had our party wake up in an alley with some serious wounds and no memory of what had happened and while everyone else was like "I'm rolling for perception!" "I'm gonna help ____ to one knee." "Does it look like anyone's noticed us?" I was sitting there in utter silence trying to figure out what my options were, if we were supposed to go in turns, what perception was....


Something that I think would help us all out a lot is if you could ball-park how many sessions you want to play. Are you looking for something to be done 2 hours a week night for 2 weeks? Or will you have two 5 hour sessions each weekend. It's important that we know if you'll even have time for the party to level up.

Honestly, as far as Pre-gens go, I'd consider creating 1 or 2 archetypal heroes for each of the races. After all, the real challenge of creating a character is coming up with a back story that offers a real incentive... even in the most dire of circumstances, it's only one in a hundred that'd dare to face danger head on.

Bear-kin
-Ursella (Natural Attack focused Barbarian) is a single mother, her husband was lost in a fight last winter to a maurauding dire boar which crossed the (previously too thinly iced) stream near their tribes' favored winter dens. As the threat of darker and colder winters loom, Ursella has chosen to leave behind her two sons with their aunt as she travels cross-country to secure them a future.

Cat-kin
- The Sorcerer you suggested. Perhaps they view her powers as a sign that she should be the one to stop the advance of winter. As the saying goes: fight ice with ice.

Dog-kin
- Icepaw (Skirmisher Ranger) has lost her true name: it was taken from her when she failed to save the Tribe's herds from attacking Winter Trolls. Eager to regain her honor and place among the tribes, she will stop at nothing until she has saved her tribe from winter's grip and proved herself worthy of the pack.

Fox-kin
- The swirling frosts of the winter storms have always captivated the mind of Karruhlin (Oracle of Wind, with Lame curse.) But that which she loves, she also knows to fear: eager to taste some of the first snows of winter as they fell, she wandered from home as a young child, and encountered a Hag, who inflicted severe frost bite on her leg via staff. Karruhlin may still have a fascination with the winter, but she won't stand by while the fate that crippled her now hunts for those she loves.

Rat-kin
-Tavina (Swashbuckler with a Short Spear, modified Inspired Blade) is a huntress, preferring the crisp air of the forest to the stuffy, overcrowded burrows of the Rat-kin. Easy going, and refusing to be tied down, she travels from place to place, eager to impress and cause mischief. Finding the artifact isn't a job: it's a fun past time until she can find a real challenge.

Raven-kin
- Wydri (Unchained Monk) is first, and foremost, a courier. It's not that she doesn't have friends, or hobbies. Really! But she's dedicated to being the best and the fastest in her line of work, and often becomes testy with those who prefer oogling over baubles and choice morsels. With the threat winter fast approaching, she prepares to race against time in search for the lost ward.


The Raven Black wrote:
If you are open to 3pp, the spell-less Ranger created by Marc Radle is awesome and far less WIS-dependent than the Core Ranger

The Spell-less Ranger is interesting; thanks for suggesting I look at it. I especially liked the fact that they feed their companions properly LOL. I mean, that the spell-less type gets their full ranger level as their effective druid level. Nonetheless... I want to stick to Paizo. Debnor is going to recommend the "help your companions" bond, just because Paizo's ACs are so notoriously short-lived! Maybe next time I'll feel braver about venturing out of Paizo's harbor.

Pan wrote:
One piece of advice I want to give is about your expectations of your homebrew here. It sounds neat, and you definitely put a lot of time into it. Be ready in case your players are not as enthusiastic about it as you are. Sometimes players just want a good mystery and the specifics don't need to be detailed. Especially, for newer players. I know I stopped doing my homebrew stuff because my players just didn't appreciate what I was going for. Took my awhile to understand that. Hope your sister falls into a ring of fire over your game though!

I know... I'm afraid of the same less-than-enthusiasm. But we'll have a lot of time, and maybe...

I'd love it if you'd elaborate on one thing: "Sometimes players just want a good mystery and the specifics don't need to be detailed." I think you're suggesting that I come up with the initial situation, and let the outcome of that situation unwind in whatever direction it takes. Am I right? If so, it's good, because I don't have time for a whole lot else! LOL.

The Shaman wrote:

Level 3 is actually decent if you want to start with smaller things in a faraway village or the like, basically starting as a "Local girl done good" and then grow to be a big shot.

Also, I would suggest a brawler or an unchained monk if you think she might be into martial arts games, wuxia, or the like, and alchemist if she might be into that sort of pseudo-science in fantasy (or perhaps if she liked how magical potions and the like were done in the Witcher).

Yes, at level 5 these PCs are already well-known in their tribe. Not as capable as the leaders, much less legendary. (Let's hope that all will await them.) They're not, however, simply the girl next door anymore. In fact, I'll have to mention as the players start thinking about their characters that they may have a spouse & children. If not, that is itself significant; certainly, young adults of the opposite sex have been making goo-goo eyes at them for several years now. OTOH, that somewhat mature status means they get actual WBL in equipment. When they were younger & less successful, they had to make do with bone weaponry & so on! (As an import, metal goods cost 50% more than usual.)

I dearly hope that my sister is NOT a fan of martial arts, wuxia, or the like! The brawler is to the fighter what the wizard is to the sorcerer, Debnor has commented all too insightfully. Or more precisely, what the cleric is to the oracle -- a brawler has access to the entire inventory of combat feats every minute. Even if Debnor created a list of the ones most likely to be useful, and we printed them out so my sister could spend time reading through them during every combat, she wouldn't necessarily have a clue what to actually expect from picking any given feat!

And monks, chained or unchained, are not a concept this society could have invented. Debnor has convinced me that they haven't invented wizards either, btw. Both classes depend crucially on research & personal development generated in institutions that concentrate regional specialists into one place, served by a staff, all of them fed by those local farmers we don't have. Yes, I know that wizards teaching single apprentices are a staple of literature. And I argued the point. But Debnor persuaded me that even with spells limited to those in Core, there are just too many for spotty, iconoclastic, master-to-pupil development. And I don't know of a reasonable way to limit subsets to specific master-to-pupil lines. It's pretty much the same with monks, as well. For all that Americans may picture lone masters devoting themselves to an individual grasshopper, that's not how martial arts developed in the East.

So if my sis really wants an unarmed combatant, we'll have to grab one of the barbarians & swap a feat or two to make it happen. Not pretty, I know.


Lady-J wrote:
there are some discoveries they can change alchemist bomb damage to different types. you could give it to them as a free bonus discovery the base may do fire but with one of the discoveries you can do lightning, cold, acid and at higher levels even force damage

I hadn't thought about discoveries. In terms of RP, one of two things would have happened to the early, hopeful alchemists in this land when they watched their initial efforts sputter and light tinder, but not do much else. They might have given up and become witches like their mothers told them to do, or yes, they might have found a way to turn those feeble bombs to some other energy type -- acid, I do believe, being the most likely. However, given that a PC starting at even 2nd level wouldn't need a "bonus" discovery, and that acid bombs do a small amount of lingering damage, I don't think I'll award a bonus discovery. But yes, alchemists might exist in this land.

OTOH, the class concerns me for a newbie. There's a lot going on here: extracts (read: spells), bombs (read: splash attacks), mutagens (read: personal enchantment), plus alchemical & potion creation (read: imagine that... item creation). If my sister has read the Witcher novels and really wants a class based on them, I guess we can try to build something. But I don't want Debnor to do a pre-gen and suggest that she play one. It's not a class you just fall into, although I've seen a player fall out.


a monk could be the weird hermit guy that lives down the road who is really good at punching things. XD The back story could be he spent years in the forest training by punching bears in the face. no martial arts or formal training required


I'm going to try and learn to be concise in 50 easy lessons. Wait... :) Seriously, I need to comment less and work on the adventure more. I appreciate all the help you've been giving me, more than I can say. Thank you, one and all!

To Julian W -- Wonderful advice; thank-you. I've mentioned the advice to keep feats simple to Debnor. And I'm going to take to heart this bit in particular: "Let the initial plot direct them to do cat like things (e.g. hunting, sneaking, acrobatics, the importance of staying clean)." I can WORK with this! Especially alongside the codicil: "Final tip - one of the cat-folk racial options gives a climb speed - this is something that can be immensely fun to play and takes no system knowledge to make use of - definitely give some of the pregens this option." I'm in fact planning on giving them all this option -- they're snow leopards, not cheetahs. But to take early advantage of it hadn't been as obvious to me as it should have been. You see, I had been wondering where to secret my mcguffin... and you just told me. Thank you!!! And then I simply have to remember to keep everyone climbing, sneaking, doing acrobatics, being lithe. Oh, I hope Debnor ends up playing a bear-kin or even a dog-kin to act as a foil for all this! AND I have to get everyone dirty. Hmmmm. Fun times ahead... Thank you, again!

To Osmin: "The most *important* bit of advice I can give you is to have whoever she plays with take the lead while she watches and explain EVERYTHING. (...) I was sitting there in utter silence trying to figure out what my options were, if we were supposed to go in turns, what perception was...." It's going to be so hard for us fish to see the water. Thank-you for the reminder. I'll be sure Debnor sees this, and I'll try to be mindful of it myself.

To Anonymous Warrior, and others who want to know: My sister will be visiting for about 10 days. Some of those days are spoken for, of course. Including the weekends, when our friends can join us, and the holiday itself. :) OTOH, my husband (Debnor) has off work for two of the weekdays, and he'll be home for the evenings. So I'll have to see how eager the players are, and how able I am to keep weaving my part of the story a few paces ahead of them. As Pan warned us, we may be disappointed, and the game may fizzle. But IF it all goes well, we'll be able to play for call it five evenings and two weekdays -- maybe 20-30 hours. Leveling up would occur at the end of the current plot, not during it, as an invitation to keeping the character active! One big advantage of playing mapless, you see, is that we would have the option of keeping going should my sister want to play over the phone after she goes home again. Even if the PCs defeat the current evil plot, there's worse dangers working in this land. Right now though, in theory, we're crafting a simple 20-hour adventure. Or 20 hours or so of family entertainment, take your pick.

Oh dear, I'm trying to be concise.

To Anonymous Warrior: Your bios are wonderful! Will you please forgive me the image I formed of poor Icepaw running after his maddened goats, yelling at them to stop charging those Trolls? ;) I knew what you meant, of course, and it's a powerful punch packed into two sentences. So many of them are... The only quibble I have is that we're not actually assigning combos of race & class -- I'll give my sister a choice of race, and a choice of class. (Which is why I wanted to be sure that the cat-kin racial penalty wouldn't be counter to any of the classes, even if the bonuses don't help all of them.) So... if I beg as cutely as my little dogs do, will you keep the bios coming? But divorced from class? Especially some more for the cat-kin? Please? I'll be giving these to my sister as ideas to create a motivation for her own character... Although apparently after everyone discovers something missing.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I would make 5 pregens:

A burly warrior (unchained barbarian bearfolk)
A ranged ranger (ranger archer)
A trickster (bard or rogue)
A helpful magic-user (cleric or bard or oracle)
A harmful magic-user (sorcerer or witch)

Ranger really is the best intro character class.

It has full BAB, so it usually hits. It has 2 good saves, so it's resilient (and usually has a decent Wisdom to shore up its poor save!). It has d10 HD, so it's tough. It has 6 skill points, and a really great skill list, so it will be good at climbing, hiding, finding stuff, wilderness stuff, animal stuff, knowing stuff.

Rangers also have great class features. They teach you about monster types and terrain types. It has a non-combat conflict resolution mechanic for dealing with animals and magical beasts (Wild Empathy) that a newbie might actual use (they don't want to kill cute bears!). They give you a few options for combat styles, with a few feats to choose from that you don't have to worry about prerequisites for; that makes it easy to choose them. They teach you how to use spells, and they have some great emergency spells like cure light wounds and resist energy. They teach you how to run pets and/or buff your party.

Archery is also a pretty easy combat style to play. You just stand there and shoot stuff. You don't really have to worry about in combat positioning as much as a melee combatant. You also get hurt less, which makes you feel tough and successful.


Lady-J wrote:
a monk could be the weird hermit guy that lives down the road who is really good at punching things. XD The back story could be he spent years in the forest training by punching bears in the face. no martial arts or formal training required

That's right, and that's why we should probably have a barbarian on hand who's decent at punching bears in the face! What feats (besides Improved Unarmed Strike) would you recommend? What rage powers? (For the record, Debnor has looked at the Unchained Barbarian and been thoroughly impressed; it's what we're going with.) I really would prefer a single class with some tweaks to yet another class option.

That said, I can work with you. For one thing, I do have to admit that those peoples over in Autumn take advantage of settled farming to mine -- which means that I could specify easily enough that they work on martial arts, too. Especially since I know they have Undead rampant, giving them lots of foes they want to punch. Hard. Furthermore, some Autumn-kin have gone to that trading port on the coast of Winter. So yes, monk instructors could well be found there, and a PC might well have gone there to study. (Although, the more I think about it, the more I'm concluding that Autumn-kin do not study wizardry. That's more the specialty of Spring, which trades on the other coast of Winter.) So fine, if my sister walks in the door eager to play a true martial artist, Debnor can build a monk for her. He certainly has the credentials: he built himself a devastating dwarf monk using the chained rules.

The next issue is whether it's a good class for a newbie to the game. The human monk I built (predictably nowhere near as optimized as Debnor's - LOL!) bored me. But that does suggest that it's fairly simple to play. I've glanced at the Unchained version, enough to see that there's more options for play, but not enough to say if it adds too much complexity or not. I take it you strongly vote for Unchained: why?

To anyone who wants to help with world-building:
First of all, somewhere in Winter live gripplis, merfolk, and vishkanyas. There should definitely also be homebrew selkies on the coast. It's just that none of these races form part of the society that the races in my game have communally built. Meanwhile, in Spring live elves, gnomes, drow, svirfneblins, hobgoblins (homebrew civilized goblinoids), and kitsune (as opposed to my fox-kin), along with true fey. A few of all of these races may be found in the port-town that the rat-kin of my society trade in, although not in any great number.

Right now I'm thinking that autumn-kin include two of the typical Pathfinder races: dwarves and halflings. Duergar, too, and certainly many dhampirs (although they'd be a variant of the Paizo race, being the progeny of dwarven women and vampiric-dwarven fathers). It is these autumn-kin who form the bulk of the town population, although there are a fair number of rat-kin as well. Before you ask, no one but the winter-kin leave their warm stoves to penetrate far into the land of Winter. The others don't get the racial trait that permits ignoring CON checks for cold environments! Which makes me wonder: who would come to such a cold, nasty climate to live? Probably, criminals and outcasts. So the winter-kin, the animal-kin, don't think well of autumn-kin...

I want to say that wee folk -- I mean halflings -- are the sailors in these parts, just as they are the farmers for the dwarves in Autumn. The dwarves and duergar are the miners, smiths of normal arms, and I'm thinking, the gunsmiths. Reluctantly, because I don't really like incorporating guns into fantasy. I'm heading in the direction of techno-fantasy at all only out of love for Arcanum. Luckily, I don't have to think about it here in Winter, where firepowder at best fires sporadically, and at worst, explodes forcefully in the gun.

However, electricity works just fine here. So now I have to consider who strengthens acid & who strengthens electricity, between Autumn & Spring. I had quickly said to myself that Autumn would strengthen acid {out of a vague thematic sense of the season}, but that would mean that the elves are the ones who might well build robots. It does sound more like a dwarven thing to do... As I said, this will take a little thought.

But still, I think I have enough of a sketch to ask: Who would have developed martial arts? The sleepy farmers & drunken sailors -- the halflings? Or the dwarves with their mining & smithing? I'm betting on the halflings, myself, but I'd love to hear your opinions. Thanks!


SmiloDan wrote:

I would make 5 pregens:

A burly warrior (unchained barbarian bearfolk)
A ranged ranger (ranger archer)
A trickster (bard or rogue)
A helpful magic-user (cleric or bard or oracle)
A harmful magic-user (sorcerer or witch)

Ranger really is the best intro character class.

It has full BAB, so it usually hits. It has 2 good saves, so it's resilient (and usually has a decent Wisdom to shore up its poor save!). It has d10 HD, so it's tough. It has 6 skill points, and a really great skill list, so it will be good at climbing, hiding, finding stuff, wilderness stuff, animal stuff, knowing stuff.
Rangers also have great class features. (...)
Archery is also a pretty easy combat style to play. (...)

I very much appreciate your advice. I'm simply not sure I understand your intent.

Debnor has already done two burly barbarian designs. (Well, he did them chained, but I think converting them will be fairly easy.) One is a multi-striker, built for taking out minions. (Power Attack, Cleave, & Great Cleave.) If she or Debnor pick that one, there have to be lots of wolves or kobolds. Certainly, some newbies (I'm dubious that my sister is one of them, but you never know) would love the idea of killing as many things as possible very quickly. The other design is for an AoO specialist, and includes Scent as well as Combat Reflexes & Step Up. That one calls for a fair number of spellcasters, especially ones with invisibility. Both designs are intentionally left open to 2-hander vs. sword & shield.

The concern I have in thinking these designs over is twofold. One is that both involve extra actions (cleaves or AoOs). Now, I'd think that "I take my turn. I swing at <whoever>. I'm done." would be a bit boring. Of coures, it does mean that Debnor will have to coach my sister as we play. "This would be a good time to do <whatever.>" So I wonder if both of these designs are easy enough for a newbie to implement if coached. My second concern is that we're going to be playing mapless. Does that make one of these designs better than the other? A third concern is that I am now thinking that it would be best if he did an unarmed design, and two bearbarians is probably enough. :)

Now, when it comes to archer/ranger, I am burning your recommendation into my mind. My sister may not have a strong idea for a class in mind. "Look at this one," I can say, and pull out the ranger archer. Certainly, Debnor is creating one. But he's also doing a 2WF ranger. Why not, in case she wants a sword-weaver? It seems like being able to pull out a ranger at all would be better than having to pull out a barbarian because she wants swords.

As for the "trickster," I'm really committed to Slayer w/ the trap talents, unless I hear otherwise. I've heard good things about the class, although I admit I haven't seen it in play. Unlike the rogue or bard, it looks like it's a whole lot easier to get good attacks and damage with. Plus, unlike the bard, it will be good at dealing with kobolds. Talk about class features that will make a player feel good -- I just have to be sure that kobolds are involved in finding my mcguffin. (And set them aside if neither of the players picks slayer.) There's other slayers one could do, certainly, but the trap-stuff is so important here, I'm asking Debnor to only do the one.

And he's doing an oracle, sorcerer, and witch. Except, again, I hope he'll be able to do two of at least the oracle & sorcerer, to show their range. And then I'll be open to doing a custom one if my sis wants a different force moving in her PC's life.

Is all this variety in and of itself a problem? Is helping my sister find a character that truly pleases her going to cause a decision-making problem for her? Or are you simply concerned about my poor husband & partner on this project, working so hard on all these character designs, most of which won't get used? I appreciate you, Debnor, more than I can say.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think 5 options is probably the upper end of available choices to have without being overwhelmed.

The slayer is a really solid class. Probably the 2nd best introductory class. Basically a spell-less ranger.

Have you talked to your sister about what she wants to play? That might save you a lot of effort. Or are you going to "ambush" her with a Pathfinder game?


bitter lily wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
a monk could be the weird hermit guy that lives down the road who is really good at punching things. XD The back story could be he spent years in the forest training by punching bears in the face. no martial arts or formal training required

That's right, and that's why we should probably have a barbarian on hand who's decent at punching bears in the face! What feats (besides Improved Unarmed Strike) would you recommend? What rage powers? (For the record, Debnor has looked at the Unchained Barbarian and been thoroughly impressed; it's what we're going with.) I really would prefer a single class with some tweaks to yet another class option.

That said, I can work with you. For one thing, I do have to admit that those peoples over in Autumn take advantage of settled farming to mine -- which means that I could specify easily enough that they work on martial arts, too. Especially since I know they have Undead rampant, giving them lots of foes they want to punch. Hard. Furthermore, some Autumn-kin have gone to that trading port on the coast of Winter. So yes, monk instructors could well be found there, and a PC might well have gone there to study. (Although, the more I think about it, the more I'm concluding that Autumn-kin do not study wizardry. That's more the specialty of Spring, which trades on the other coast of Winter.) So fine, if my sister walks in the door eager to play a true martial artist, Debnor can build a monk for her. He certainly has the credentials: he built himself a devastating dwarf monk using the chained rules.

The next issue is whether it's a good class for a newbie to the game. The human monk I built (predictably nowhere near as optimized as Debnor's - LOL!) bored me. But that does suggest that it's fairly simple to play. I've glanced at the Unchained version, enough to see that there's more options for play, but not enough to say if it adds too much complexity or not. I take it you strongly vote for Unchained: why?

[spoiler=To anyone who wants to...

i meant if she wanted to play a monk you don't nesesarily have to have the character be a martial arts practisioner or have a formal monks training for thematics


as for going unchained for monk its just stricktly better than the chained monk and it can take any archetype if you take the time to go into the archetype and make it have logical replacements (like if the unchained monk doesn't get an ability you could just have it replace the nearest levels gained ki power instead as the majority of the missing monk abilities in unchained just became ki powers


if you don't want a monk though and just want a monk like barbarian as for any barbarian go with the chained vertion i find it to be better than the unchained version

ps my spell check just stoped working last night any one know how to fix it?


Thanks everyone for your help thus far. My sister has finally gotten back to me with some info on her possible choices...

She is not in the least interested in playing a "killer" class. (Thus we're going to have to rename the Slayer class to "Scout." And remember the rename -- so far, Debnor & I are both stumbling on that.)

Martial arts or whatever isn't a concern -- so we're planning on an archer class to intrigue her with. She loved the idea of playing a healer, and thought that playing a trap-disabler would be fine. I didn't mention the races to her (that'll be a bit of a Christmas present), so she may in fact prefer a sneaky, lithe, much more feline class like Slayer Scout when she sees the total package. But Debnor is also, of course, working up a Life Oracle for her. {EDIT: The Life Oracle would have Channel & Selective Channeling, along with the two manditory archer feats -- Point-Blank Shot & Precise Shot.}

This simplifies things a lot. Debnor is playing his Cleaving Bearbarian, and either the Slayer Scout (if my sis picks Life Oracle) or... he's not sure, but maybe a different Oracle.

This does mean that I'm a bit stumped. If my sister goes for the not-Slayer Scout, I'll do the Hedge Witch as I have planned. If she goes for the Life Oracle, though, I still want a rat-kin witch with the Cauldron hex -- but what focus???? Is there something that would be useful to contribute from camp, besides ordinary alchemical stuff? And maybe buff potions?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

An archer Life oracle sounds pretty sweet. Maybe with Disable Device (via trait?), Heal, Perception, and Spellcraft skills?

Maybe Quicken Channel for her 7th level feat? Then she can shoot and heal, or double heal, in a pinch.

Cha > Dex > Con > Wis > Int > Str???

What spells were you thinking of for the Life Oracle? I'm a big fan of murderous command, but that might be too much of a "killer" spell for your sister.

How big is the party going to be? Just 2 PCs? Or more?


No traits, only Core spells & feats. 3 PCs, one played by my sister, two by Debnor.

We'll have a SSSllll-Scout on hand for Disable Device & Perception; the only question is whether my sister wants the character, or Debnor takes it. The Life Oracle would get Heal & Spellcraft. The Life Oracle also gets Knowledge (nature), extremely important in this scenario due to how I've re-organized the knowledge skills, but then the class we're calling Scout gets Knowledge (dungeoneering) -- which I've renamed Knowledge (uncanny) -- also extremely important. Neither get Knowledge (arcana), which is a pity; the party will have to retreat to camp to ask my witch about any large scaly things they see in the distance.

Yes, Quicken Channel sounds like a great feat to keep in mind for 7th level, if my sister picks the Life Oracle and wants to keep playing. Oh, while the Scout will be as sneaky as she can get at 5th level, the Oracle will be the opposite of sneaky: she'll have the Haunted curse.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Oracles have enough skill points they can still take Stealth, even if it isn't a class skill. 4 + Int + Favored Class Bonus.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think some people need to grow a sense of humor...


Question for you all: I've noticed that oracles only get simple weapon proficiency, which for archery means crossbows. And I wanted the option of an archer oracle, if you recall. Well, I'm working on race designs over here, and I want to give cat-folk in particular some racial weapon proficiencies. However, I don't see them as shooting even short-bows from up in trees or on uneven, natural platforms such as a rock formation. (I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but what I need is a description of how someone fires a regular bow while lying down.) What I want to give them all is proficiency in hand crossbows (regular & repeating). {EtA: Also cestus (which she'd have) & kukri; the renamed scout if a cat-kin would get bolas & a custom weapon, the cat-kin claw gauntlet, as martial weapons.}

Comments?

Note to SmiloDan: Haunted oracles have things fall nearby (or out of their hands!), are accompanied by sounds, and so on. In this case, it's not ghosts who follow her about, but all the spirits that inhabit whatever is nearby taking notice of her and "speaking up." Debnor picked the curse; I'd never want to play a haunted oracle personally, but it could amount to a nice RP motif... Plus, if she takes the character, I get to figure out what it is about her that is raising such a ruckus. I will let her switch curses if she wants, of course, but if she takes it, any skill pts spent on Stealth would be going straight into the, uh, latrine.


Yay! My sister likes the Scout! She's here, and she likes the premise! **happy dance around the dining room & living room**

And she likes the cat-kin.

So now I just need a Hedge-Witch, which should be easy. Thank you all!


Awesome. I was just about to suggest using the name of the vanguard archetype (which is anyway one of the most powerful ones) but if she likes scout, that's fine.

Plus, it means she will get an introduction to the world of bad puns that define D&D, since she is playing a cat-Girl Scout?

I'll see myself out ;).


The Shaman wrote:

Awesome. I was just about to suggest using the name of the vanguard archetype (which is anyway one of the most powerful ones) but if she likes scout, that's fine.

Plus, it means she will get an introduction to the world of bad puns that define D&D, since she is playing a cat-Girl Scout?

I'll see myself out ;).

<giggle>

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