| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hi. I'm currently working on my sorcerer next spells and items I might craft when I stumbled on this item : Visage of the Bound
Ok. Let's say I got this item and I'm able to cast Summon Monster IV to summon a Hound Archon. Hound Archon is able to cast Greater Teleport at will (not bad for a CR 4). It's a personal spell but irrelevant for present example.
That means, by level 8 (as a sorcerer), that I would be able to greater teleport at will ???
Seriously ? What did I read wrong ?
Yep, pretty great eh. But only for 8 rounds.
That's correct.
But it's only once per day, and you have to spend an equivalent spell slot for it, and you can only do it for 8 rounds. If you mess it up, you'll have to wait 24 hours before you can do so again.
You're also going to have to get this one crafted, as the likelihood of coming across a Hound Archon version of the Visage of the Bound is pretty slim, as there are hundreds of different types of outsiders. Of course, since you took the crafting feat, that's a non-issue.
Hi. I'm currently working on my sorcerer next spells and items I might craft when I stumbled on this item : Visage of the Bound
Ok. Let's say I got this item and I'm able to cast Summon Monster IV to summon a Hound Archon. Hound Archon is able to cast Greater Teleport at will (not bad for a CR 4). It's a personal spell but irrelevant for present example.
That means, by level 8 (as a sorcerer), that I would be able to greater teleport at will ???
Seriously ? What did I read wrong ?
Teleport in particular might be a GM call. While the Visage of the Bound says: "for the spell's duration, the wearer can use of any of the bound outsider's spell-like abilities as if they were his own," summon monster specifies: "a summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities."
Does using the SLA "as your own" mean you can use it? Or does the Summon Monster restriction mean the summon doesn't have access to those abilities at all for you to borrow?
Actually, stated that way the necessary answer is obvious. If you allowed teleportation effects, you'd also have to allow SLAs with expensive components, which are only prevented via the same language in Summon Monster. GMs aren't going to give you free Raise Dead or the ability to grant Wishes, so no teleportation.
But other than teleportation, summons, and expensive component spells, you can use what they have in the way you think.
The teleportation restriction and such only applies to the Summoned Monster. Tell me, is your PC a summoned monster?
No?
I didn't think so.
Therefore, those restrictions would not apply to the person who summoned the creature.
It'd make for an interesting and very funny campaign (where a summoner trying to summon some powerful being to serve him instead summons some lowly adventurers after fizzling the spellcast, or messing up ingredients), but PCs are almost always not summoned monsters.
**EDIT**
Also, the Visage of the Bound description already has its own special rules, which means it would supersede whatever rules you were trying to implement onto it.
Thank you very much for your feedback, all of you.
By RAW, Summon Monster is prohibited. Nothing is written about teleport whereas it's a regular restriction for summoned monster. So I'd say, with this object, it is allowed.
And I can make my mind clear about what RAI would be in that case.
Anyway, my DM will have final word on this item and rule interpretation so I'll ask if he allows Teleport.
Without Teleport, item is still very good but for use with higher level monsters maybe.
Huh. Good catch - never noticed this item before.
How the hell did this slip past the PFS banhammer?
Not sure, but it'd take 36 fame to be able to buy that, which means at earliest you could buy it at level 12, which is generally considered the end of a PFS character anyway.
I guess you could buy it sooner if it was ever on a chronicle sheet, but that probably won't happen...
The teleportation restriction and such only applies to the Summoned Monster. Tell me, is your PC a summoned monster?
No?
I didn't think so.
Therefore, those restrictions would not apply to the person who summoned the creature.
**EDIT**
Also, the Visage of the Bound description already has its own special rules, which means it would supersede whatever rules you were trying to implement onto it.
If you throw out the teleportation limits because they aren't specifically mentioned in the Visage of the Bound, an item in the player companion line that is often very light on editing and consideration of how its items fit into the bigger picture, then you also have to throw out the limits on SLAs with expensive components. Which means a standard Summon Monster IX lets you bind a Glabrezu and hand out a free Wish. Which means someone with Summon Monster VI and the Summon Evil Monster feat can bind an Efreeti to hand out three free wishes. And several options can raise dead or resurrect.
Good luck with that.
How the hell did this slip past the PFS banhammer?Probably because it's pretty niche. You're spending a pretty hefty chunk of change to be able to cast an SLA that you could have just ordered your summon to cast anyways.
Yeah, if you accept that the standard Summon Monster SLA limitations remain (no summoning is listed in the item, but also no teleportation and no spells with expensive components) the only reason to do this is to boost CL when yours is higher than the monster or because you want a self buff spell that it has. Not really worth it.
The teleportation restriction and such only applies to the Summoned Monster. Tell me, is your PC a summoned monster?
No?
I didn't think so.
Therefore, those restrictions would not apply to the person who summoned the creature.
**EDIT**
Also, the Visage of the Bound description already has its own special rules, which means it would supersede whatever rules you were trying to implement onto it.
If you throw out the teleportation limits because they aren't specifically mentioned in the Visage of the Bound, an item in the player companion line that is often very light on editing and consideration of how its items fit into the bigger picture, then you also have to throw out the limits on SLAs with expensive components. Which means a standard Summon Monster IX lets you bind a Glabrezu and hand out a free Wish. Which means someone with Summon Monster VI and the Summon Evil Monster feat can bind an Efreeti to hand out three free wishes. And several options can raise dead or resurrect.
Good luck with that.
It's not even because they're not mentioned in the item description. That's just icing on the cake.
The spell restrictions only apply to the monster you summoned, if those monsters were bound here through, say, a Greater Planar Binding, they could likewise use those SLAs. They don't apply to you, because you're not a summoned monster.
So if they have SLAs with expensive components, or can accomplish crazy things, the item lets you emulate them yourself, even if only for rounds per day. Either way, welcome to the Caster/Martial Disparity.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since you are merely housing the summoned monster in the item, I would say the monster is still limited by no-teleport and no-expensive-sla. Whatever it has left, you can use.
/cevah
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The spell restrictions only apply to the monster you summoned, if those monsters were bound here through, say, a Greater Planar Binding, they could likewise use those SLAs. They don't apply to you, because you're not a summoned monster.
If the monster you summon can't use the abilities, they effectively don't exist. To expect that you can use abilities that are unavailable to the monster granting them is... a stretch.
It's just reiterating/clarifying the rule that you can't have a summon and an Eidolon "out" at the same time by stating that a summon inside the visage counts as "out." So you can't use this to dodge that restriction.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The spell restrictions only apply to the monster you summoned, if those monsters were bound here through, say, a Greater Planar Binding, they could likewise use those SLAs. They don't apply to you, because you're not a summoned monster.If the monster you summon can't use the abilities, they effectively don't exist. To expect that you can use abilities that are unavailable to the monster granting them is... a stretch.
They can't use them because of the rules regarding summon monsters. Rules which don't apply to standard creatures. Which you, the wearer, are. And not a summoned monster.
Not being able to use abilities doesn't mean you don't have those abilities. It's like saying, because you can't use teleport into or out from an Anti-Magic Field, that you don't have the Teleport spell. Not only is that blatantly false, but its unavailability is circumstantial at best, because the rules and effects of Anti-Magic Field means you can't use them, just like how the rules and effects of summoned monsters means summoned creatures can't use them.
There's no text that says you use abilities as if you're that very summoned creature. In fact, it actually says the opposite, that you can use any of its special abilities as if they were yours.
So yes, just because they can't use them doesn't mean that they don't have them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The spell restrictions only apply to the monster you summoned, if those monsters were bound here through, say, a Greater Planar Binding, they could likewise use those SLAs. They don't apply to you, because you're not a summoned monster.If the monster you summon can't use the abilities, they effectively don't exist. To expect that you can use abilities that are unavailable to the monster granting them is... a stretch.They can't use them because of the rules regarding summon monsters. Rules which don't apply to standard creatures. Which you, the wearer, are. And not a summoned monster.
Not being able to use abilities doesn't mean you don't have those abilities. It's like saying, because you can't use teleport into or out from an Anti-Magic Field, that you don't have the Teleport spell. Not only is that blatantly false, but its unavailability is circumstantial at best, because the rules and effects of Anti-Magic Field means you can't use them, just like how the rules and effects of summoned monsters means summoned creatures can't use them.
There's no text that says you use abilities as if you're that very summoned creature. In fact, it actually says the opposite, that you can use any of its special abilities as if they were yours.
So yes, just because they can't use them doesn't mean that they don't have them.
For the spell's duration, the wearer can use of any of the bound outsider's spell-like abilities as if they were his own.
I can use the monsters SLAs, as if it was my SLA. Summoned monsters can't use teleportation abilities. If he can't use it, then I can't use it, because I am taking his spell like abilities as they are for the summoned monster.
You can't say, "its in the statblock so I can use it". You have the specific creature you summoned in the mask. That specific creature has specific abilities it can use. Teleport is not one of them, so you also cannot use it.
You're right, summoned monsters can't. But you're not a summoned monster, are you?
Therefore, that restriction doesn't apply to you.
I can imagine 3 granted wishes being good, which is why this ruling matters.
Which one grants three limited wishes?
An efreeti from the summon evil monster feat.
If you can buy a scroll of Summon Monster IX you can use a Glabrezu for one wish.
You're right, summoned monsters can't. But you're not a summoned monster, are you?
Therefore, that restriction doesn't apply to you.
If I can use the abilities it can use, and it can't use teleport, then I also cannot use teleport.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Can't use" is not the same as "doesn't have".
For the spell's duration, the wearer can use of any of the bound outsider's spell-like abilities as if they were his own.
Any being the operative word.
This one will require an FAQ. I see both sides of the argument. They could have meant "You have the same SLA's the monster has". They could also have meant "You can use the SLA's the monster can currently use".
I am just going to press the FAQ button.
Personally I don't think the teleporting is restricted.
edit: I just realized the opening question was phrased in a way to make the PDT mark it as unclear.
It's much cheaper in the long run. A scroll of SM IX is 3,825 gp, a Visage of the Bound is 22,900 gp. A scroll of Wish is 28,825 gp.
Ten wishes via this work around are only 61,150 gp, ten scrolls of Wish are 288,250 gp.
Yeah but one takes like.. 10 months right? Isn't the limit once per month?
Once per Glabrezu. If you think you get the same one each time you cast a summon spell, including from some other guy's scroll, then sure. But I don't think most people play that way.
That's not how summon monster works. That's not how any of this works.
Granting 100% that this is open to interpretation, as wraithstrike has pointed out...
"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure
another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel
abilities."
A statblock lists what a creature can do. The statblock for a summoned monster in the bestiary is generic and may include spell-like abilities. The summon monster rules supersede the statblock in the bestiary. A summoned version of what is in the bestiary cannot use teleportation abilities. Those abilities should not be on the summoned monster's statblock, because that would indicate the monster can use them. Barring that, the line should be changed to read something like:
0/day - greater teleport (not even self, no objects at all)
Because that's what the monster can do. That's what the monster's statblock needs to look like for a GM to not be mislead.
If summon monster said "cannot use the Improved Initiative feat", on any monster statblock that had that feat, you'd edit the statblock and subtract four from the monster's Init line.
In conclusion - and again, I'm only trying to discuss this, not disagree that it's open to interpretation - the monster has a non-functional spell-like ability, so IMHO that's what you'd get, at best; a non-functional spell-like ability. What does the greater teleport ability of a summoned monster do? Nothing. That's what you're granted.
Another point is this, most monsters with greater teleport have the "self only" version, so it is not much better than dimension door since DD has a long enough distance that if you use it to get away, you won't be caught anyway. At least with DD you can help the entire party escape if your caster level is high enough to bring everyone along. The same applies to teleport. It could be argued that for a PC, who is somewhat dependent on his party, that it is worse than DD.
Not being able to use it doesn't mean they don't have it.
Let's say we have a level 20 Wizard, right? He can cast Greater Teleport 4/day (it's probably higher, but bear with the example here) in normal circumstances.
Now, let's say there's a smart Dragon he comes across. The Dragon flys right into the face of the Wizard as a Move Action, and then uses a Standard Action to cast Anti-Magic Field. That Wizard cannot cast any of his spells, including his Greater Teleport to get away from it. But does that mean he doesn't have the ability to cast Greater Teleport 4/day? No. He can. It's just the effects of the Anti-Magic Field prevent him from doing so. If he moves outside of the Anti-Magic Field (without the Dragon shredding him to pieces, of course), then he can cast the spell.
Inbetween the Anti-Magic Fields, he either can or cannot use his Greater Teleport Spells. But that doesn't mean he no longer has them at any point in those very instances.
Same concept here. If a Hound Archon has Greater Teleport At-Will, but is a Summoned Monster, which cannot cast teleportation SLAs, does that mean he no longer has that ability? No. It simply means he, as a summoned monster, cannot use it; but if he was a bound planar creature, and not a summoned monster, he could.
Another similar example would be if a character with 12 Strength picks up a Belt of Giant's Strength +2, and then proceed to grab the Power Attack feat. Are you saying that, if the character fails to fulfill the 13 Strength requirement of Power Attack, after he spent the feat to acquire it, that he no longer has Power Attack?
If summon monster said "cannot use the Improved Initiative feat", on any monster statblock that had that feat, you'd edit the statblock and subtract four from the monster's Init line.
I'm bringing this up because this is actually a very interesting point you've made. Not only would you have to do that, but if the interpretation of "cannot use it = doesn't have it," you'd also free up a feat slot for that creature to pick whatever feat he qualifies for, since, you know, you can't use what you don't have, right?
I mean, if you didn't, that means you're left with a creature who still has the feat, right? And the argument is "You can't use it because you don't have it."
If the argument is "You can't use it because the creature can't use it," that's been debunked, since the summoned creature's restrictions don't apply to you, as A. you're not a summoned monster, and B. you don't use the abilities as if you were the summoned monster, you use them as if they were yours, and NOT the summoned monster's, which is precisely what the item description says.
Luckily in this case that person you find funny also happens to be the one that's right.
If this was the RAW forum you'd be right. In general discussion we should all be able to admit that if a GM applies a universal rule he's going to ban both teleportation and expensive SLAs and decide the author of this item had space/editing/imagination constraints when he only excluded summoning SLAs.
For the spell's duration, the wearer can use of any of the bound outsider's spell-like abilities as if they were his own.
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure
another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel
abilities.
The summoned monster cannot use summon or teleportation abilities. You can use that summoned monsters abilities as if you had them. It cannot use them, so you cannot use them. You don't get the abilities of a out of the bestiary hound archon, you get the abilities of a summoned hound archon, which includes the inability to use the summon or teleport abilities.