Plausible Pseudonym |
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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
The cost of a phylactery will buy you at least a couple of Wishes to pick what your Reincarnate into as you get old.How precisely are you going to get these wishes cast after you're killed? Who do you trust that much? Even if your plan works there's a diminishing return after a couple of deaths and/or lifetimes.
But if we're shooting for the stars just pray real hard that some deity will save you from old age. Sounds like a flawless plan.
You can't dominate person/Geas someone with a good UMD score, a finger for a ring of three wishes, or a hand to hold a luckblade? Simulacrum yourself? Planar Binding to negotiate with an Efreeti/Noble Djinni/Marid for a straightforward rules approved use of Wish?
What's the diminishing return? If I managed to earn 120,000 gp for a phylactery in a lifetime when I started at level 1, how much can I earn in a lifetime when I start with a young body at mid/high level? You'll get ahead of the game.
Hell, just roll the dice on a regular Reincarnation and hope your young new body is something tolerable. That's not going to seem worse than perpetually locked into a rotting form for everyone.
Tacticslion |
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Contingency: delayed reincarnate.
Method: limited wish.
Cost: 3,000 gold: 1,500 g (contingency) + 1,000 (reincarnate)-> 0 g (reincarnate) + 1,500 (limited wish)
Comparative: 120k (phylactery)
That's a literal 40 lifetime's-worth of expense (120/3 = 40).
Or, you know, if you simply use diplomacy, you've got 120 lifetimes' worth (120/1 = 120) - up to 60 times, if you and your friend split the amount.
Lichdom is for those who want it, but it's not really a great deal.
Price comparison (with the important note that I'm way off on the cost of resurrection - oops! - but see the conversation below that for more), and a similar conversation. There are errors, there! I've made mistakes! Still, I find it a useful thing to link to in order to have a launching point for conversation.
Plausible Pseudonym |
Contingency: delayed reincarnate.
Method: limited wish.
Cost: 3,000 gold: 1,500 g (contingency) +
1,000 (reincarnate)-> 0 g (reincarnate) + 1,500 (limited wish)Comparative: 120k (phylactery)
That's a literal 40 lifetime's-worth of expense (120/3 = 40).
Or, you know, if you simply use diplomacy, you've got 120 lifetimes' worth (120/1 = 120) - up to 60 times, if you and your friend split the amount.
Lichdom is for those who want it, but it's not really a great deal.
Price comparison (with the important note that I'm way off on the cost of resurrection - oops! - but see the conversation below that for more), and a similar conversation. There are errors, there! I've made mistakes! Still, I find it a useful thing to link to in order to have a launching point for conversation.
Contingency can't do a spell higher than 6th level, no limited wish.
Jeraa |
Using contingency is a bad idea. It help if you die outside of combat, but if you die in combat it doesn't really help.
If tied to raise dead, you comeback with a number of hit points equal to your Hit Die. So a single attack can probably take you out again. Any spell you have memorized or any unused spell slot has a 50% chance to be lost. Requires you to be 15th level.
Using it with reincarnate is also bad. The process of reincarnating takes 1 hour for the body to perform. Your enemy just needs to destroy the body before that is complete. When you do come back, spells are lost as with raise dead. Requires you to be 12th level.
Using it with breath of life just heals you a bit, which may not be enough to bring you back anyway. Also requires you to be 15th level.
Also, being killed by a death effect makes all 3 of these impossible. All other resurrection spells are too powerful to be used with contingency.
The contingency routes bring you back while still in the danger zone, and make you less effective at defending yourself when they do bring you back. Being a vampire or lich brings you back a safe distance away (far safer for a lich than a vampire). Becoming a lich only requires 11th level, while the vampire route requires 5th level. So not only are the contingency routes less effective, they require you to be a higher level to function.
Jeraa |
They're not using contingency for combat. Read up.
The point still stands. Using contingency for immortality is still bad. Escaping a peaceful death doesn't really help if you can't also escape a violent death. Only being able to avoid death under certain circumstances isn't immortality.
Tacticslion |
Tacticslion wrote:Contingency: delayed reincarnate.
Method: limited wish.
Cost: 3,000 gold: 1,500 g (contingency) +
1,000 (reincarnate)-> 0 g (reincarnate) + 1,500 (limited wish)Comparative: 120k (phylactery)
That's a literal 40 lifetime's-worth of expense (120/3 = 40).
Or, you know, if you simply use diplomacy, you've got 120 lifetimes' worth (120/1 = 120) - up to 60 times, if you and your friend split the amount.
Lichdom is for those who want it, but it's not really a great deal.
Price comparison (with the important note that I'm way off on the cost of resurrection - oops! - but see the conversation below that for more), and a similar conversation. There are errors, there! I've made mistakes! Still, I find it a useful thing to link to in order to have a launching point for conversation.
Contingency can't do a spell higher than 6th level, no limited wish.
That's definitely a fair point. I was presupposing using contingency for the 4th-level spell reincarnate, but if you're using it for limited wish to replicate reincarnate I can definitely see that being ruled against.
Effectively, I was only thinking of, "This is the spell effect." instead of, "This is a seventh level spell." - I can definitely see ruling against that, though.
Sooooooo... contingency used with a scroll of reincarnate (can be created by aid of limited wish, but that's really not necessary - it's only a +5 to the spellcraft DC) - saved a wee bit o' cash (as scrolls aren't exactly expensive, it's 700 for a 4th level, with 1k for materials for a total of 1.7k, though it only costs s us 1.35k as half of 700 is 350; compared to 1.5k for the limited wish), and still legitimate. So, you know, decrease the cost by 150 g/use of stuff, and lower the required level to 11th... same as a lich.
Does anyone know if you can stack deadman's contingency with contingency? Like, is there any official weigh-in on this? Because they are different spells with different levels and have fundamentally different rules (as teleport object is definitely over the level for contingency, but allowed by deadman's contingency), but both are contingent on a thing. If you're really super worried about your corpse in the battlefield, you can potentially deadman's contingency your corpse with teleport object to a safe space.
(Again, you don't need to be of a level to cast teleport object - simply make a scroll and use that.)
Tacticslion |
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Kobold Cleaver wrote:They're not using contingency for combat. Read up.The point still stands. Using contingency for immortality is still bad. Escaping a peaceful death doesn't really help if you can't also escape a violent death. Only being able to avoid death under certain circumstances isn't immortality.
Sooooooooooooooooooo... liches, and vampires, and wizards with the immortality discovery, and outsiders, and gods aren't immortal?
Cool. Cool.
Plausible Pseudonym |
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Sooooooo... contingency used with a scroll of reincarnate (can be created by aid of limited wish, but that's really not necessary - it's only a +5 to the spellcraft DC) - saved a wee bit o' cash (as scrolls aren't exactly expensive, it's 700 for a 4th level, with 1k for materials for a total of 1.7k, though it only costs s us 1.35k as half of 700 is 350; compared to 1.5k for the limited wish), and still legitimate. So, you know, decrease the...
I'm 99% sure that spell trigger items like scrolls, wands, and staves are the exceptions to the "you can fake the spell requirement for a +5 DC" to create. So no Wizards are creating scrolls of Reincarnate. Buy it.
Tacticslion |
Tacticslion wrote:I'm 99% sure that spell trigger items like scrolls, wands, and staves are the exceptions to the "you can fake the spell requirement for a +5 DC" to create. So no Wizards are creating scrolls of Reincarnate. Buy it.
Sooooooo... contingency used with a scroll of reincarnate (can be created by aid of limited wish, but that's really not necessary - it's only a +5 to the spellcraft DC) - saved a wee bit o' cash (as scrolls aren't exactly expensive, it's 700 for a 4th level, with 1k for materials for a total of 1.7k, though it only costs s us 1.35k as half of 700 is 350; compared to 1.5k for the limited wish), and still legitimate. So, you know, decrease the...
Oy! See, that's what happens when your mind gets filled with kids and forgets things.
... but again not terribly relevant; as you rightly point out you can buy it, but also literally any other item is fairly inexpensive - so instead of that, make it a once-ever command word item (something seemingly implied to be possible by the vagueness of the wording of charges, but again, it's not really difficult to come by even without such creation).
(Also, that seems to be the wrong post quoted for that aside... XD)
((Also, I think you're right, but it's not in the general rules; while the scroll entry specifies you have to have the spell, that can easily be taken into the broader general rules' language about not meeting a prerequisite; the feat directs you back to the general rules again... Oh! Duh... while potions are specifically called out, it more generally explains, "In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.", which isn't actually clarified in the scroll entry... daggummit... AH! AHAH! Here in the random table of costs back! Is... is that really the only place it defines them as such? Hold on... OH! Okay, under Using Items it clarifies that they're "spell completion" items. That... took way too long to find.))
Klorox |
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Arakhor wrote:Presumably, a Gentle Repose spell cast every couple of weeks would minimise the rotting issue.A lich isn't a corpse, though, it's a creature.
back in AD&D 1st ed, the lich Szass Tam had a specialized preservation spell to preserve his appearance and that needed renewal every few weeks (for a lvl24 caster), and spent years, or maybe decade with nobody being the wiser about his real nature... that spell could be adapted to PF and used by liches.
Jeraa |
Jeraa wrote:Kobold Cleaver wrote:They're not using contingency for combat. Read up.The point still stands. Using contingency for immortality is still bad. Escaping a peaceful death doesn't really help if you can't also escape a violent death. Only being able to avoid death under certain circumstances isn't immortality.Sooooooooooooooooooo... liches, and vampires, and wizards with the immortality discovery, and outsiders, and gods aren't immortal?
Cool. Cool.
The wizard immortality discovery only remove the penalties from aging. It does absolutely nothing else. You still die from old age, you just don't take any penalties from aging until then. Just like the druid and monk. There is nothing immortal about it. It doesn't even extend your life.
Outsiders aren't immortal. They are just unaging. And even that is debatable. As far as I know, there is nothing that says they don't age.
Gods may or may not be immortal. They have no mechanics, and conform to whatever abilities the GM wants them to have.
The [i[contingency[/i[ routes only save you from death once (at least until you set it up again), and even then only from certain kinds of death. Being a lich or vampire saves you from all types of death, either through outright immunity (unaging, death effects, negative levels, starvation, suffocation, disease, poison, and so on) or by bringing you back regardless of how you died.
So if any of those you mentioned are immortal, it is the lich/vampire. Gods may or may not be.
Tacticslion |
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Tacticslion wrote:Jeraa wrote:Kobold Cleaver wrote:They're not using contingency for combat. Read up.The point still stands. Using contingency for immortality is still bad. Escaping a peaceful death doesn't really help if you can't also escape a violent death. Only being able to avoid death under certain circumstances isn't immortality.Sooooooooooooooooooo... liches, and vampires, and wizards with the immortality discovery, and outsiders, and gods aren't immortal?
Cool. Cool.
The wizard immortality discovery only remove the penalties from aging. It does absolutely nothing else. You still die from old age, you just don't take any penalties from aging until then. Just like the druid and monk. There is nothing immortal about it. It doesn't even extend your life.
Outsiders aren't immortal. They are just unaging. And even that is debatable. As far as I know, there is nothing that says they don't age.
Gods may or may not be immortal. They have no mechanics, and conform to whatever abilities the GM wants them to have.
The [i[contingency[/i[ routes only save you from death once (at least until you set it up again), and even then only from certain kinds of death. Being a lich or vampire saves you from all types of death, either through outright immunity (unaging, death effects, negative levels, starvation, suffocation, disease, poison, and so on) or by bringing you back regardless of how you died.
So if any of those you mentioned are immortal, it is the lich/vampire. Gods may or may not be.
"The thing literally labled 'immortality' does not fall under the definition of 'immortality'."
Cool.
Being a lich or vampire saves you from all types of death, either through outright immunity (unaging, death effects, negative levels, starvation, suffocation, disease, poison, and so on) or by bringing you back regardless of how you died.
This bolded part, at least, is... definitively not true.
A vampire does not sparkle in the sunlight... for long.
A non-aquatic vampire does not sparkle in the water... much.
A vampire does not sparkle with a stake through the heart... without glitter(dust?).
A lich does not sparkle... especially without a sparkly phylactery.
A bored lich sparkles... a lot.
To wit:
Escaping a peaceful death doesn't really help if you can't also escape a violent death. Only being able to avoid death under certain circumstances isn't immortality.
... so neither of those are immortal, by your own definition.
That's perfectly reasonable to postulate, by the way, but your own arguments and word-choice dictate that your later arguments (and your previous implications) are incorrect.
EDIT: Ah, word choice. Heh.
Klorox |
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the Immortality discovery simply says 'you discover a cure for aging', it adds that you remove any age penalties and won't take any later, but lacks any kind of language to say that you still die of old age when your time comes... between the name and this glaring absence, I believe it DOES offer what's promised. It doesn't prevent you from getting killed, of course, but you need to be a phylacteried lich or a god to escape that, and even then, not always...
Drahliana Moonrunner |
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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:back in AD&D 1st ed, the lich Szass Tam had a specialized preservation spell to preserve his appearance and that needed renewal every few weeks (for a lvl24 caster), and spent years, or maybe decade with nobody being the wiser about his real nature... that spell could be adapted to PF and used by liches.Arakhor wrote:Presumably, a Gentle Repose spell cast every couple of weeks would minimise the rotting issue.A lich isn't a corpse, though, it's a creature.
He also had to use a ton of perfume to mask the rotting scent that the spell would not mask.
He was also utterly insane.
Tiny Coffee Golem |
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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:back in AD&D 1st ed, the lich Szass Tam had a specialized preservation spell to preserve his appearance and that needed renewal every few weeks (for a lvl24 caster), and spent years, or maybe decade with nobody being the wiser about his real nature... that spell could be adapted to PF and used by liches.Arakhor wrote:Presumably, a Gentle Repose spell cast every couple of weeks would minimise the rotting issue.A lich isn't a corpse, though, it's a creature.
I'm confident that spell already exists in many if not most lich spellbooks.
quibblemuch |
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Klorox wrote:back in AD&D 1st ed, the lich Szass Tam had a specialized preservation spell to preserve his appearance and that needed renewal every few weeks (for a lvl24 caster), and spent years, or maybe decade with nobody being the wiser about his real nature... that spell could be adapted to PF and used by liches.He also had to use a ton of perfume to mask the rotting scent that the spell would not mask.
He was also utterly insane.
You would be too if for a thousand years your minions and lackeys nudged one another and chortled like middle schoolers every time someone said your name. "Szass... huh, huh... Szass..."
Tacticslion |
If you want to rely on contingency, there is the Extra Contingency feat from Ultimate Intrigue. It needs character level 19 and the second contingency can not fire in the same round, but on death you could first teleport away and then reincarnate. Dimensional Lock would be a problem, though...
Nice! Once you get it, switch up to plane shifting to your own plane, for maximum safety.
I'll gladly point out that there are weaknesses in the various other forms of immortality - that's kind of a given. But while that's granted, the other isn't inherently the right option - not even necessarily better, depending on your interpretation of things and what you're going for (though it could be).
It comes with advantages and disadvantages. Everything does.
But why be an 11th level wizard, when I can just be a 5th level Druid? Or a monk! And I don't even have to be any good!
I like the idea of lichdom and would love to play a good one some day. But it's not the best or most powerful, and it's not the most useful, either. It could be the latter, but it depends on what you want, and for most of those who take it, it's the only road they know.
Ravingdork |
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I wouldn't allow that as a GM. It well exceeds the buffs a wish could normally apply, even accounting for the weaknesses.
If one of my players made that wish, I would tell him that it won't work as desired, but if he wanted, I could apply lich corruption to his character, as presented in Horror Adventures.
justaworm |
I wouldn't allow that as a GM. It well exceeds the buffs a wish could normally apply, even accounting for the weaknesses.
I would totally agree with that for a PC who wanted it in a normal campaign setting. Even though this comes with severe penalties, there is no way it is worth the small price (though maybe it would be ok at some point of increased cost).
I was just saying that there was another option available if it made sense for the game at hand.
Tiny Coffee Golem |
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Tacticslion wrote:
But why be an 11th level wizard, when I can just be a 5th level Druid?What would that help? You'd need to be friends with a 5th level druid. :P
Also, don't forget the negative levels/Con reduction. Eventually, without access to Restoration, you always run out of time.
Yea. If I was building a character that I actually wanted to become somehow it would be Reincarnated Druid 5/ Wiz X+
Tacticslion |
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Tacticslion wrote:
But why be an 11th level wizard, when I can just be a 5th level Druid?What would that help? You'd need to be friends with a 5th level druid. :P
Also, don't forget the negative levels/Con reduction. Eventually, without access to Restoration, you always run out of time.
So... like a lich does (only they do it with boredom XD).
But the thing is, if I keep getting better, I can get access to the other stuff.
Yea. If I was building a character that I actually wanted to become somehow it would be Reincarnated Druid 5/ Wiz X+
Again, it depends on the person and their goals.
Why don't those seeking immortality go the (much easier and more guaranteed) route of druid?
- A) they don't know about it
- B) they don't venerate nature
- C) they know and respect nature but can't work up the drive to revere it enough to receive the power
- D) other reasons
... but by going the route of the lich, there are at least two "failed lich" templates, plus a "failed lich" after you've succeeded, and the possibility of being destroyed by random adventurers and powerful churches hunting for you.
... but hey, you have your own built-in support group! Of either irritating sycophants trying to weasel their way into your good graces, duplicitous liars attempting to steal your secrets for themselves (and possibly dispose of you when your back is turned), and insane cultists who revere foolish forces of death.
And hey! Maybe you're one of those - that's great for you, then, I suppose! But most liches are only after their own things. And those who do are generally thus either shunted out of society, or left with this rabble they maybe can, maybe can't stand (whether it be for religious, social, and ethical reasons).
Tiny Coffee Golem |
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Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:Yea. If I was building a character that I actually wanted to become somehow it would be Reincarnated Druid 5/ Wiz X+Again, it depends on the person and their goals
Me. Myself. I. Not a character. Once I had effective immortality I'd be able to take as long as I wanted to learn wizardry.
Westminster Wizard's Golf Club |
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Tacticslion wrote:Me. Myself. I. Not a character. Once I had effective immortality I'd be able to take as long as I wanted to learn wizardry.Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:Yea. If I was building a character that I actually wanted to become somehow it would be Reincarnated Druid 5/ Wiz X+Again, it depends on the person and their goals
Dear fellow, if you haven't learned by the time you have to settle for lichdom, you'll never truly learn. Your sort never does.
Tiny Coffee Golem |
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Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:Dear fellow, if you haven't learned by the time you have to settle for lichdom, you'll never truly learn. Your sort never does.Tacticslion wrote:Me. Myself. I. Not a character. Once I had effective immortality I'd be able to take as long as I wanted to learn wizardry.Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:Yea. If I was building a character that I actually wanted to become somehow it would be Reincarnated Druid 5/ Wiz X+Again, it depends on the person and their goals
I can't tell if that's a thinly veiled slight or meaningless tautology.
Regardless I'm saying I'd prefer to avoid lichdom via Druidism. Sooo, I'm not clear where the misunderstanding is or what you actually mean.
Balec Aldwin |
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Tacticslion wrote:Me. Myself. I. Not a character. Once I had effective immortality I'd be able to take as long as I wanted to learn wizardry.Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:Yea. If I was building a character that I actually wanted to become somehow it would be Reincarnated Druid 5/ Wiz X+Again, it depends on the person and their goals
You certainly do, pal. Cause the good news is -- you're a lich. The bad news is, you've got, all you liches have got, just one week to regain your life, starting tonight. Starting with tonight's adventure. Oh, have I got your attention now? Good, cause we're going to add a little something to this months XP earning contest. As you all know, first prize is a Sun Orchid Elixir. Anyone want to see second prize? Second prize's a wand of Prestidigitation. Third prize is you're on the path to being a demilich. You get the picture?
Plausible Pseudonym |
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It's joking. His comment just makes me think of the scene of Glenngary Glenn Ross (obviously) yelling at the guys sitting around drinking coffee to go out and make something happen, Sean Connery in The Rock talking about losers saying they'll try, while winners go out and (censored), people who say if only they won the lottery they'd be able to invest that money and get really rich.
I see "if only I was an immortal lich I'd finally have time to become an actually good wizard" the same way. Aroden, Nethys, Geb, almost all of the Runelords, they didn't need the crutch of lichdom. Neither did Tar Baphon, he just wanted to be (an exceptional!) one after he'd already peaked at the Wizard game. Most liches I see in Paizo adventures are sad sacks who stalled out in the middle levels, went for immortality, and then never accomplished anything with it.
Goblin_Priest |
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personally i would prefer it if vampires had the majority of their supernatural abilities (energy drain, children of the night, dominate, change shape) removed and have the majority of their weaknesses removed aswell(sun,water,mirrors,holy symbols, other peoples houses,garlic)
Thus... skeletal champions or juju zombies? With proper preparation to boost your CL, one could contingency (upon death) Create Undead (skeletal champion/juju zombie) on oneself.
Whether Create Undead uses the target's soul or not does not appear defined, however. Nor how transformative the process would be if it recycles the soul.
Ravingdork |
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Or you could just carry a wendifisa spear.
Tacticslion |
If the gem is held by anyone other than the spear’s wielder when the wielder is slain (and the gem shatters), the creature holding the gem gains 1d8 temporary hit points, a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength, and a +1 bonus to its effective caster level. These bonuses last 1 hour.
I had to post this here right now to understand that the gem was separate from the spear.
Before that I was all, "Whhaaaaaa...? How can someone hold the spear other than the wielder...?
Ravingdork |
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Ravingdork wrote:If the gem is held by anyone other than the spear’s wielder when the wielder is slain (and the gem shatters), the creature holding the gem gains 1d8 temporary hit points, a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength, and a +1 bonus to its effective caster level. These bonuses last 1 hour.I had to post this here right now to understand that the gem was separate from the spear.
Before that I was all, "Whhaaaaaa...? How can someone hold the spear other than the wielder...?
Yep. If you have a lenient GM, just about anyone can become a juju zombie for the low, low price of 7,150gp, or even 3,575gp if you craft the gem yourself (the price of the gem sans magic spear).
It's any wonder why whole parties of juju zombie adventurers aren't roaming across the Inner Sea.