Interest Check: Back in my days, modules were better!


Recruitment


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First things first: this is just a check. If I get interest, I'll probably start the recruitment some time next year, depending on my school schedule. In the meantime, if you like the idea, feel free to make your own table.

Second things second: this will be a silly game. Not full Monty Python silly, but it will have serious situations not taken seriously, weird characters and some general wackiness.

So, what's the idea? The idea is running a module or two, or possibly a few scenarios, with a group of old PCs. And by old, I mean venerable. And by venerable I don't just mean -6 Str, Dex, Con and +3 Int, Wis, Cha, I mean that you'd yell at kids to get off your lawn, get cranky without your cup of tea and forget the name of the housekeeper.

You would be retired adventurers, somewhere around level 14-16, once famous but now almost forgotten, going to live another adventure for old time's sake, or possibly because there was no one else suited for the task, what with all these young adventurers going to Lorrimor's funeral or the Swallowtail Festival.
Of course, I'd give you something in exchange for your old age. First thing off the top of the head, turn the +3 age bonus into a +4 because odd numbers irk me. Then I'd probably allow traits giving access to class features (like Mummy's Mask's trapfinding trait) so that you wouldn't have to play a weaker class just because someone's gotta find that spike pit. Possibly put up feats for stuff like getting a mental stat to AC or attack, or something like that.

So, if you want to play a wizened, bearded old wizard, or the ancient monk who is still great at kicking foes in the face, if you want to be a paladin who has back pain from the heavy armor or an old, hideous, wrinkly witch, this is the game for you.

A quick note about myself: I've started PbP recently, but I have several years of RL mastering experience and I believe that I'm pretty good at GMing. I like houseruling a few aspects of the game, because I believe that creating deep characters does not mean making them weak, and if someone wants to Finesse a scimitar, well, Slashing Grace should work without a dip in swashbuckler. I enjoy and usually allow 3PP content, up to a certain point. For example, I would prefer to avoid Psionics and Path of War unless all potential players agreed: I love the systems, but they can sometimes be overwhelming.

The Exchange

I love the idea and think it'd be a ton of fun! Would definately go with an old Barbarian. All his friends are dead and he thinks he should have died too but didn't so he just keeps on living all in a huff. A dark comedy thing. He'd have to have "old man strength" of some sort. Maybe buff the rage so he's a slow 15ft movement speed with a cane, then rages and is momentarily nimble and a bit stronger than the young chaps.

When I first read the title I thought this was about AD&D and Dungeon magazine modules. What do you think you'd run to capture these unique characters essence? What comes to my mind is Tomb of Horrors, Red Hand of Doom, or Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (as I believe these were all republished under 3.5 rules) under the premise "yet again adventures must go back to the iconic source of our misery, but this generation wasn't able to cut it! You all did this 40 odd years back... how about you give it another go?" A new yet "old" take on a classic seems fitting.


Hey Sappy! It's a fun idea. I could definitely get onboard, probably with a monk :) Let's see if more people get into the idea.


Ooh! I played a character for a social-intrigue game a while back with a general concept that would fit in well into stuff like this. Several other players were his own children who he'd yell at for bringing scandal to the family name, and he would do things like trick Chelish ambassadors into drinking hot sauce while riding around on an Animated couch. (Level 15 is actually a great benchmark for a game like this because it makes "Signature Skills" an incredibly powerful character option).

Age Resistance is a pretty cool spell, and Alchemists with Infusion can actually share it.

I'd be careful about how much homebrew you allow, because level 15 or so gives so many options RAW that you generally don't need to customize much.


Clarence Bugman wrote:
When I first read the title I thought this was about AD&D and Dungeon magazine modules. What do you think you'd run to capture these unique characters essence? What comes to my mind is Tomb of Horrors, Red Hand of Doom, or Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (as I believe these were all republished under 3.5 rules) under the premise "yet again adventures must go back to the iconic source of our misery, but this generation wasn't able to cut it! You all did this 40 odd years back... how about you give it another go?" A new yet "old" take on a classic seems fitting.

Yeah, I though about it after I had put the thread up, it was either this or "Get them goblins off my lawn!". For older modules, I think that the Red Hand of Doom would be a lovely fit, I'd have to bump up the CR to fit higher-level characters, but they'd be perfect, old heroes for old adventures.

thunderbeard wrote:
I'd be careful about how much homebrew you allow, because level 15 or so gives so many options RAW that you generally don't need to customize much.

Good point. I was mostly thinking about giving something to non-casters, who would be harshly penalized in comparison to casters: hard to play a Rogue when your Dexterity is ten points lower than the Wizard's Intelligence.


Perhaps martial characters could have options to reduce the penalties. Some options for martials:


  • -4 Str/Dex/Con and +2 Int/Wis/Cha.
  • -6 to one physical stat, -4 to another, and -2 to the third and one mental stat at +4, one at +2, and one at +0
  • -6 to two physical stats and +4 to two mental stats.
  • they get a higher point buy based on BAB. Half BAB gets 15, 3/4 gets 20, and full BAB gets 25.

Also, if we all adventured together back in the day, are we all the same race? The elf would have already been old when the half-orc was born. Or are we just handwaving this?

Edit: ooh, brilliant idea - the shorter-lived races were put into a magical sleep. Or they might have been resurrected.


Ooo, this sounds delicious. Would have to find an alchemist to make us some lumbago ointment or a dentist to make the shifter-type dentures for their natural-bite form.


Well, you could always let people play mummies or vampires, to get really old...

That said, it's not hard to be a competent martial character at this level with the hefty wealth options to consider. A Student of War Kensai or Duelist adds their Int to AC twice; a Zen Archer or Sensai monk can use Wis to hit and Int for damage; a Swashbuckler or Daring Champion cavalier is getting most of their damage from level and not Str/Dex; a Mutagenic Mauler/Amplified Rage Barbarian can pull off +14 to Str and Con on top of whatever they're starting with. Even the good old rogue stops caring about Dex when he can trivially feint/flank everyone and his damage is mostly coming from sneak attacks. Sure, it would require a bit of creativity to build melee competency, but I don't see it being an issue when we're looking at the difference between 25 Dex and 35 Int.

* * *

However, the bigger difficulties seem to be Leadership and Age Resistance. Leadership gives characters away to handle their-day-to-day stuff through non-old servants, grandchildren, etc.; this may or may not be something to ban or endorse.

Age Resistance is trickier (and Druids' Timeless Body, and Living Monoliths' Ageless Stone; a dip in Reincarnated Druid or full Green Faith Acolyte can also do this, with the latter two letting a character look much younger than their age). Some of this could be sort of fun (the Green Faith Acolyte, for instance, being able to "hibernate" 90% of the time means they could be super duper old and waking up cranky after a hundred-year nap), but it also represents a problem: almost everyone with access to the spell is a caster class, giving casters the potential to have much higher Dex/Con than martials.

It might make sense to ban some levels of age resistance, or to give martial characters the ability to buy a ring of age resistance, etc.

* * *

EDIT: There's actually an item (at 20% or so of level 15 WBL) that solves this completely. Might be a bit kitchy, but limiting items/magic to only removing age penalties up to a point (e.g. minimum penalties of -3) could be a way to keep martial relevant.


Seems like a really fun chance to play a Reincarnated Druid. Old in this body, but that's not the whole story. Why, death is an old friend I've met several times. [gets caught in a dragon's line of fire] O bother, not again...[rolls eyes]


Oh, and for a slight example of what a mental-based melee character can do, here's the guy thunderbeard mentioned. The game had a slight bit of gestalt (into a specific PrC), but basically: at level 12, with greater bane, kirin style, guided weapons, and betraying blow, he hit for something like 50 damage per attack.


I see, it's possible that I overestimated the effects of the penalties; reducing them a bit, but not overwhelmingly, possibly combined with the Automatic Bonus Progression physical prowess, sounds like the most reasonable idea.

For Leadership, I don't hate the feat, but I usually disallow its use in combat. If you want to get servants, pupils or grandchildren for your everyday needs, and perhaps a valet following you, it's fine, but don't expect to get a sidekick to get in combat with you.
Age resistance is admittedly trickier, especially with its long duration. Since the PCs would start off venerable, requiring Greater Age Resistance, perhaps its duration could be tweaked to 1 round/level. Timeless Body and similar abilities would not remove penalties but reduce them one step.

Again another option would be to leave the penalties unchanged, remove Age Resistance and the related item, but allow the PCs to have bursts of energy, ignoring some of all of the penalties for a number of rounds equal to their character level per day.

About the races, well, the easiest solution is having different age PCs coming from different parties: if the elf is one of the heroes who defeated the dread necromancer, perhaps the half-orc is one of those who prevented his resurrection eighty years later. But I like the sleep/resurrection idea as well.


Hm... perhaps as a workaround for some of the penalties for physical based characters would be to provide alchemical potions that temporarily restore the physical, but at a cost. So for a period of minutes (must be continuous post drinking) they are at their former peak strength from youth, but after the effects wear off age catches up with a vengeance (flavor of that vengeance up to you, could range from incapacitation to dementia to constant vomiting). Also make it so that the potions have a hard limit of one per day (so the player would have to judge best when to use it) lest [insert really bad side effect here] happen.

Very cool concept in general though.


So brought the scenario up to my regular game group, they love the idea and have been brainstorming ideas all morning.

Now I really want to make a blind ranger/hunter with a seeing eyedog.


Another possible work around might to be have these R.E.D. folks get mythic levels... if the threat is dire enough, and the gods/forces of the universe are determined to have these folks come out of retirement to deal with it, perhaps they can pony up a bit of divine power to help them out. Of course, that also opens up the mythic table to the forces they are facing too... fair is fair, after all.


@GM: Really, my suggestion would be to simply skip Leadership and anything related to resisting or suppressing age effects. It's not the intent of the game, after all. And really, leave the penalties and boni on their RAW... Let's experiment as it's designed. If someone doesn't want to play something martial because of the penalties, then go play a caster. I'm sure there are people, like me, who'd enjoy the challenge of being in melee with all those minus-this-minus-that.


Hmm. I like the idea of playing a former Cleric (Paladin? Inquisitor?) of Aroden who then sort of had to retrain and retire after his god disappeared. If I play an elf, that's around 600 years of Golarion history to toy around with.

That said, it seems like there's definitely enough interest here.

The Exchange

For sure enough interest!

GM Sappy wrote:
If I get interest, I'll probably start the recruitment some time next year, depending on my school schedule. In the meantime, if you like the idea, feel free to make your own table.

Seven people posted so far, two tables would seem doable.


Interested


Quite definitely so, I don't think that I'll manage to handle two tables, what with school and all, so everyone is welcome to make their own game.

As I wrote before, I won't have time to start the game at least until January, in the meantime I'll do some more thinking about the rules and what to run. If not going old-school, high-level modules/scenarios like Academy of Secrets or Tomb of the Iron Medusa could be a good fit.

The Exchange

Sweet! I'm in a recruitment that ends today, if it doesn't go my way then I'd be open to talking about starting something before January. Otherwise that's not a long wait at all :)


This interests me! I'm totally up for trying this too!

I want to make an old barbarian who was just too grizzled to die. Death or Glory, vital strike, power attack, wears practically nothing armor-wise. He was too good, and now he's in the embarrassing decline of barbarianhood.


While I do like the idea of playing a curmudgeon, I can see how balance issues will crop up where the martials will be taking major hits to their prime stats while casters, who are already dominant in high level play, only get better.

I'd have to ask what summoner options would be available.


drbuzzard wrote:
martials will be taking major hits to their prime stats while casters, who are already dominant in high level play, only get better.

If you're talking about old people campaigns, well, a lot of wizards are old people. There's a bias to party composition from tropes alone.

That said? At level 15, the difference between a caster and a martial is that one is throwing around save-or-die effects, and the other one doesn't allow saves.


Jury's still out on age penalties and how to balance them, it's true that being crafty would reduce them much, but I don't want to force people to optimize.

For Summoners, I usually require them to use the unchained spell list, and reserve the right to ask for eidolon modification if I think it too strong (no beasts with thirty natural attacks and pounce, for instance). And no Synthesist as well, nice as it is, it would remove the whole point of being old and frail.


While caster stats in truth would be crazy high, their physicals would be insanely low. Someone who only had a 10 str would now have a 4 as RAW. They would be even more "glass cannon" so it's not that much of an advantage to be caster over melee. Melee would just have to fight smarter not harder, casters would need to take even more precautions to not get damaged. Either way, I think it'd be a fun experiment.


Err, 4 Str means you can't lift anything, but it's not exactly "glass cannon-y." With magic items and planning, you can still start with around 12-14 Dex/Con at minimal investment; add some AC items and a Toughness feat, and you're not doing terribly.

The Exchange

Some mental issues arise with old age as well; dementia, Alzheimer's, etc. So the across the board buff the mind and debuff the body won't work in my eyes.

What does everyone think of a system where an age bonus to one attribute will put an equal age penalty on another. Pairing STR and DEX, INT and CON, and WIS and CHA.

So, you have:
STR and DEX: great old-mans strength but nasty arthritis or an amazing lifelong honed talent with your hands now you're too weak to push a needle through cloth.
INT and CON: Brilliant memory but frail as can be or crazy robust as nothing seems to be able to kill you but there also seems to be no one "at home".
WIS and CHA: Wisdom beyond understanding yet no one wants to be around you or you're the life of the community but everyone sees you as a complete loon.

There would definitely need to be some understanding that this is not a super optimize situation and rather for good fun. Maybe a max 14 to attributes before age and racials are applied.


I would play this in a heartbeat, especially after the grognard thread game. In fact they had a UK based 1st edition module that had the players get aged to venerable status with subeffects like deafness, near-sightedness, etc. Especially if everyone names their character after old stalwarts from the various D&D game worlds of yore.

For a character an old cleric comes to mind instantly. I would love it if he/she's a cleric of a dying god or order like Aroden, Bobcobb, Karsus, etc. And the group is playing for a chance at one last shot of glory and potential rebirth. Or a samsaran druid near the end of their current reincarnation cycle, ready to ascend to their earned reward.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Definitely have some interest in this...I'll keep an eye out for the recruitment thread.

My first thought is of the gentlemen jewel thief who has to come out of retirement for One Last Job, like in every heist movie ever.


@Clarence Bugman: That's a really nice idea! Kinda like the Alchemist mutagen/cognatogen, there would have to be some trial to put together a good pairing but it could work perfectly.

Another weird thought that I had was to give a free bonus to the preferred characteristics (like a +6/+4/+2, stacking with items/ABP) but then have the player pick a number of disadvantages (sort of like Oracle curses without the boons). That way everyone could get the benefits of experience and training, and some flavorful side-effect, rather than a flat score decrease. This would also allow the old monk to be an old blind monk, even better.

Again, excessive optimization would be discouraged, but I'm hoping that most players would join for the fun.


@gm sappy, I'm totally okay with having the standard age penalties for my melee. My level bonuses, starting cash, etc. would more than help compensate for my diminished physical acumen.

I have my barbarian character pretty much prepared.


GM Sappy wrote:
(sort of like Oracle curses without the boons)

Most oracle curses can be reflavored to be aging, yeah.

That said—I like the idea of building a martial character around penalties to physical attribute scores, and would prefer to have that (or somewhat standard aging) remain an option. Maybe let people "buy off" age penalties with something else, like curses or hits to mental scores?

The Exchange

Ooo the Oracle curses, those are pretty good too! Those will really show end of life crippling like what stormcrow27 mentioned.

@rungok, I agree, so far the barbarian is my favorite too. The conflict of becom9ng old and weak is awesome.

This might be a good time to play a vigilante as well. I usually have a hard time fitting the duality into a party setting.


How'd this thread get so far without anyone mentioning Cohen the Barbarian and the Silver Horde? This is a perfect chance for butt-kicking geezers shaking an arthritic middle finger at the gods with a mouth full of diamond dentures and a gut full of alcohol and bile.

The Exchange

TheLawfulNeutral wrote:
How'd this thread get so far without anyone mentioning Cohen the Barbarian and the Silver Horde? This is a perfect chance for butt-kicking geezers shaking an arthritic middle finger at the gods with a mouth full of diamond dentures and a gut full of alcohol and bile.

Yeah, I would really enjoy an anti-cleric mechanic. Being fueled by passion against something seems pretty legitimate to me. Doesn't have to necessarily be evil either.


I approve of this game, now where did i put that meteor swarm scroll...


Depending on my schedule when things start, and the character creation guidelines, I'd be down.

Thinking of something along the lines of a very confused Dr. Doom. Basically, a long forgotten villain who has, largely due to dementia, been talked into switching sides. He thinks he's suppressing the local peasants, or fighting off heroes, but he's actually blasting the new villain's mooks and lieutenants, some of which might actually be his former employees. Would be happy to do it as a more purposefully switched type character too. Maybe he got tired of being the big bad, surrounded by ambitious little back stabbers, just waiting for him to make a mistake...

Had a similar character planned out for another somewhat tongue in cheek campaign, though back then he was a she, and she was a synthesist. This time around, I'm thinking possibly magus of some variety...especially considering we're high enough level I can buy some respectable armor. Alchemist would be another option.


I'm thinking a Summoner who had the foresight to craft his eidolon into a caretaker for his old age. He's losing it mentally some (possibly dementia, or maybe just lots of CRS).

The eidolon was actually pumped up in Int enough to be able to carry on what needs to be done. Probably will make him a master summoner, so the eidolon doesn't have to be combat worthy.


Posting interest in playing a really old Casanova bard, though perhaps with some changes. Will post more later.


Clarence Bugman wrote:

Ooo the Oracle curses, those are pretty good too! Those will really show end of life crippling like what stormcrow27 mentioned.

@rungok, I agree, so far the barbarian is my favorite too. The conflict of becom9ng old and weak is awesome.

This might be a good time to play a vigilante as well. I usually have a hard time fitting the duality into a party setting.

Batman Return of the Dark Knight super old version anyone? Or Robin Hood from Robin and Marian with Sean Connery?


or Bruce Wayne from Batman Beyond.


Wow, I surely didn't expect that much interest!
I'll surely run this when I have some more free time, though that won't be until the next year. And I like the concept of anti-clerics, getting their powers from collective belief in an idea.


Recruitment thread is up! All details there.

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