Goliath Druid / Mammoth rider

[Helios314]

Hi all!

I was thinking that through clever use of the shaping focus feat i could get the full giant form progression. This would mean a 10/10 split with basically huge everything stomping around. the companion would progress fully, and the d12 hitpoints and full BAB progression will be handy, i just worry that maxing out at 5th level spells will make me lose a lot of my oomph right when spellcasting is starting to reign supreme.

things to consider:
i'm building for wildshaping into a giant anyway, so my wis isn't going to be the focus, so DCs wont be tip top
the full bab progression of the mammoth rider means i can ultimately get max vital strike, when a pure druid cannot.

my questions are these:
is vital strike a trap? if i'm going for a giant form i get all my weapons and will have a huge strength score so vital strike will cheat me out of the +x damage from the huge strength score being applied multiple times with iterative attacks.
alternately, the huge strength and size might mean that throwing spears at people might be hilarious, and triply hilarious with vital strike

since i don't need natural spell if i'm a giant since they can talk and have hands, i think i'll skip it altogether, its not like im swimming in feats over here, and the world is tottaly busted, so we will likely have to make our own high level gear, so need to save some feat slots for crafting stuff

im thinking of going half orc, and maybe using the chainbreaker trait because the huge size range i figure will let me control a lot of area with a shield/flail and trip and such. is just dropkicking people with a enormous greataxe (with vital strike) or falchion (if not) better?

PS there aren't any traits, and no 3rd party stuff is allowed, but largely anything else goes. also to keep in mind we are only level 2 right now, and this guy wont show up for a while very likely (for various reasons the character im playing now is unlikley to be playable long-term), so this is largely a academic exercise currently, but hopefully after my current character is exiled for his transgressions, this will come into play, perhaps a level or two from now, so the first few feat suggestions would be appreciated

thanks in advance folks!

[avr]

If you're going to be short on feats you probably don't want to take up tripping. It takes quite a few to remain effective at later levels.

A large greataxe goes from 2d6 to 3d6 base damage, so the first vital strike is 6d6. Assuming say 24 strength at that point, a +1 weapon, Power Attack +6 damage, and +2 from some buff or another, a vital strike does ~40 damage, each normal attack does ~29.5. A thrown masterwork spear goes to 27 vs. normal 17.5. YMMV as to whether this makes vital strike worthwhile.

Bonuses by the time you get to be huge are harder to estimate but from what I've read that'd be proportionallly the same for many. If you can spare a feat for Devastaing Strike it'd look better. Grasping Strike/Faerie strike are less good if your wisdom is unimpressive, you might want to skip those.

If your animal companiion is strong enough to carry you and has the Undersized Mount feat (yes, I know it's huge) then Spirited Charge may be better at first & near as good for a while later on, and its prereqs will be handy.

[Ellioti]

Cast Enlarge Person on your already huge mount

[Helios314]

Ellioti wrote:

Cast Enlarge Person on your already huge mount

as long as the size modification form the mammoth rider ability doesn't prohibit further size increases, which i think i remember someone saying it would/did/does

[Helios314]

goliath druids dont get ride as a class sill anymore as part of the archetype, but nevertheless, getting a lot of ranks in it for the mammoth rider archetype is required.

mammoth rider would make me abetter frontline fighter in the mid to late game, but i guess the bigger question is if skewing that way is a fundamentally poor decision. ive never gotten characters up that high, so im worried that il go from carrying my woefully underoptimised parrty to being useless right along with them

[avr]

Helios314 wrote:

Ellioti wrote:

Cast Enlarge Person on your already huge mount

as long as the size modification form the mammoth rider ability doesn't prohibit further size increases, which i think i remember someone saying it would/did/does

Shouldn't be a problem. It increases to Huge size permanently and non-magically - it's not a size changing effect IMO, and it's not a spell which could be a problem.

As to whether a huge pair of goons would be useful in the late game, it depends how your party plays. If they like taking measures to 'beat the system' with summons, flying, invisibility, clever plans etc. then no you won't be useful. If they're fine beating their way thru the dungeon room-by-room then yes, you will.

[MrCharisma]

I think Vital Strike sounds like fun. Even if you only do 75% of the damage that you'd do if you built for a full-attack build, you'll be able to move and do all that damage every round which gives you a lot of versatility.

avr wrote:

If you're going to be short on feats you probably don't want to take up tripping. It takes quite a few to remain effective at later levels.

Bear in mind that if (s)he's a Huge giant (s)he's getting a +2 size bonus to Combat Maneuvers and a +8 size bonus to strength (another +4 to CMB).

Also this is probably cheese that doesn't work, but can you stack GIANT FORM and ENLARGE PERSON? That would give a further +2 to CMB & +1 STR (for a total of +9 to CMB when an enlarged Giant).

[Scott Wilhelm]

MrCharisma wrote:

Also this is probably cheese that doesn't work, but can you stack GIANT FORM and ENLARGE PERSON? That would give a further +2 to CMB & +1 STR (for a total of +9 to CMB when an enlarged Giant).

If I understand you correctly, no you can't. Size increases don't stack. But there are virtual size increases that stack with size increases. There is the Lead Blades Spell, and there is a size increase weapon enchanment, Impact, I think. Lead Blades is only for Rangers, but a dip in Ranger is not crazy talk if you are already thinking Druid Mammoth Rider. Also, there is Strong Jaw, a Druid Spell which might not work on the Druid, but should work on the Mount.

You could stack Boiling Blood, Bull Strength, and an Alchemal Strength Mutagen. All bonuses to Strength--Morale, Enchancement, and Alchemal--that all stack okay.

[MrCharisma]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Also this is probably cheese that doesn't work, but can you stack GIANT FORM and ENLARGE PERSON? That would give a further +2 to CMB & +1 STR (for a total of +9 to CMB when an enlarged Giant).

If I understand you correctly, no you can't. Size increases don't stack. But there are virtual size increases that stack with size increases. There is the Lead Blades Spell, and there is a size increase weapon enchanment, Impact, I think. Lead Blades is only for Rangers, but a dip in Ranger is not crazy talk if you are already thinking Druid Mammoth Rider. Also, there is Strong Jaw, a Druid Spell which might not work on the Druid, but should work on the Mount.

You could stack Boiling Blood, Bull Strength, and an Alchemal Strength Mutagen. All bonuses to Strength--Morale, Enchancement, and Alchemal--that all stack okay.

Yeah that's what I figured. Never really messed around with this so I wasn't 100%, but that makes sense.

The point I was trying to make is that even without further messing this character is going to have a +6 to their CMB compared the average character, so they may not have to invest quite so many feats to stay competitive.

Also yes IMPACT weapons do count as 1 size bigger, but it comes at the cost of a +2 enchantment. LEAD BLADES on the other hand is a level 1 ranger spell and is therefore available in wand form. It would cost 750 gold for 50 charges that last 1 minute each, more than long enough for most combats.

Also something like the TITAN FIGHTER might be worth a 1 level dip.

So all together that's a Huge character wielding a Gargantuan weapon that does damage as if it were Colossal.

If we start with a Greatsword (or similar) that's 8d6 damage. With GREATER VITAL STRIKE that's 32d6 damage (112 average) + STR (X1.5) + Power Attack (15 or 18 damage) + whatever else (who cares really at this point).

If you take the WEAPON TRICK Cleaving Smash you get 24d6 (~84) + STR, + PA, etc against 2 enemies. I'm not sure how Cleaving Smash interacts with GREAT CLEAVE or the CLEAVING FINISH feats.

[Helios314]

I'm getting a lot of people talking about how to do stunning amounts of damage in melee, so does that mean that the 'is it OK to sacrifice spellcasting for better punching power' answer is just 'yes'?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Helios314 wrote:

I'm getting a lot of people talking about how to do stunning amounts of damage in melee, so does that mean that the 'is it OK to sacrifice spellcasting for better punching power' answer is just 'yes'?

Umm, yes?

I think the decision about to what extent you want a Hulking, giantic brute that smashes everything and to what extent you want a glowing, crackling dynamo of eldritch might is really more a matter taste than of mechanical advantage. When either gets angry, the ground shakes. The how of it is up to you: your tastes and the kind of character you want to play.

You seem to be going for a little bit of both: awesome. I'm not sure how to answer the question of which proportions make the ideal mixture. I don't know that there is one. Usually, both kinds of characters contribute meaningfully to the party throughout a campaign. A good party finds synergies of the PCs individual talents to maximize effectiveness and/or make sure a good time is had by all. Even restricting the discussion to mechanical advantage in combat, which-is-best is often just situational, and a lot of GMs manipulate the situations capriciously.

[Helios314]

That's very comforting to hear, thanks

Mechanically, I am wondering about squishing and perhaps a weasels belt, thoughts on that?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Helios314 wrote:

That's very comforting to hear, thanks

Mechanically, I am wondering about squishing and perhaps a weasels belt, thoughts on that?

Only that the Dex bonus will help offset the size penalty to dex, and the idea is very funny.

Go for it.

[avr]

MrCharisma wrote:

avr wrote:

If you're going to be short on feats you probably don't want to take up tripping. It takes quite a few to remain effective at later levels.

Bear in mind that if (s)he's a Huge giant (s)he's getting a +2 size bonus to Combat Maneuvers and a +8 size bonus to strength (another +4 to CMB).

Yeah, but that's on a (mostly) 3/4 BAB base with no other accuracy boost. More feats will still be needed.

As far as the usefulness of huge goons go it depends on whether the people you game with prefer to take dungeons as they come, or to try to bypass them or win against them without fighting thru head-on, as I said above. There are some nice buffs you'll miss out on, but druids have surprisingly few high level spells on their list, and many of the better spells they do have are lower level spells on other spell lists.

Taking up your belt slot is a harsh cost at higher levels unless you can combine magic items (e.g. adding the belt of the weasel effect at *1.5 cost to a belt of giant strength +4). You might be better to cast geniekind to burrow, or vermin shape to be small, then drop those when you get to a large enough area.

[Helios314]

frightful aspect having no saves at all is bananas! i'm seriously considering just sticking with druid the whole way up, it just makes everything simpler and honestly if i optimize myself too much i feel like the rest of my party will just become entirely irrelevant, making them grumpy...

[Vatras]

If vital strike works for you or not depends mostly on two things:
- Is there a lot of movement on the battlefield and few full-round attacks? If yes, vital strike is good.
- Do you have a way to get pounce or similar? If yes, vital strike is unnecessary.

Our fighters got access to (move+full attack) lately and it beats vital strike easily. On the other hand, they would have loved to have the strike before they could do that trick, because moving around was the norm.

Giant size is often a really big hindrance. An example are the dungeons around Sandpoint with their 5' corridors and 15'x10' rooms. The ceiling is also often in the way. Then there are dungeons where you could have football matches in one of the rooms. It wasn't an issue for us, since we don't use it, but I suspect that size can be a problem often enough to consider it.