Disarming a Friendly Touch Attack


Rules Questions


If a Spell Caster has cast a Cure spell and is moving up to deliver it to someone and you get an AOO on them - can you disarm them forcing the spell to trigger on you instead?


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Disarm

A spell is not an item, therefore you can't force them to drop it.


I think what he means is making an attack to touch their hand so that it discharges (touch spells discharge the next time you touch someone, there is no control over that)

"If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges."

Theres no rules for doing so, but its theoretically possible. DMs call.


Why the hand ? The spell can be discharged with unarmed attacks or natural attacks.


Baval wrote:

I think what he means is making an attack to touch their hand so that it discharges (touch spells discharge the next time you touch someone, there is no control over that)

"If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges."

Theres no rules for doing so, but its theoretically possible. DMs call.

Source? Because I can't find that in the magic section of the PRD at all.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Jeraa wrote:
Source? Because I can't find that in the magic section of the PRD at all.

Bizarrely, it appears to be in the Combat chapter instead. ^_^


Kalindlara wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
Source? Because I can't find that in the magic section of the PRD at all.
Bizarrely, it appears to be in the Combat chapter instead. ^_^

Yeah, I just found that. Stupid place for it.


Yes, it seemed to me that the Disarm CM would be the best representative of targeting the attacking "hand".

The Background:
I'm trying to workout if a Grapple Monkey can be made to work once Freedom of Movement becomes available.
The only way I can see it is if you can somehow stop an opponent caster from Casting Freedom of Movement and walking up to the person you are Grappling and giving them Freedom of Movement.

I can work out how to have AOOs while Grappling, and potentially removing Freedom of Movement from a target you which to grapple (once) but that doesn't stop a Caster delivering a Touch Spell and freeing your opponent.

It also seem very silly that you can be standing over a down opponent and his ally can walk up with a healing spell glowing on his hand and deliver it and there is very little you can do to stop it short of killing them.


Tetori monk to negate the FoM, Grabbing style for the AoOs.

Since you're just trying to get them to touch you (which discharges the spell), you should be able to just make a touch attack on the AoO to get the cure spell. The disarm CM works fine otherwise though, touch spells are treated as weapons for most purposes after-all.


Huh interesting I wonder how upset my PC's would be if I started doing this.


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Extremely would be my guess; it's hard enough to get people to heal as-is. Still, it's an interesting thought, which I'd honestly not considered before.


Thanks for the heads up on Tetori Monk.
Sad in a way, because I had thought the one thing the Brawler could excel at would be as a Grapple Monkey and because of Freedom of movement the Monk still beats it. :-(


Food for thought:
FAQ

Quote:

Deflecting Attacks: Does an attack that is deflected count as a miss?

Update 5/29/13: If the attack is deflected, not only does the target take no damage, but any other effects (ability drain, negative levels, harmful conditions, and so on) associated with that attack do not occur. If the deflected attack is a touch spell or other effect that requires "holding the charge," the charge is not expended. For example, if a ghoul's claw attack is deflected, the target is not subject to the ghoul's paralysis ability from the attack. If a shocking grasp touch attack is deflected, the attacker is still "holding the charge."

The opponent deflecting your touch causes it not to fire. You still have it.

FAQ

Quote:

Touch Spells: Does wearing a gauntlet, cestus, or similar glove-like weapon count as "touching anything" for the purpose of accidentally discharging a held touch spell?

No.

Gloves don't count as an accidental touch.

PRD

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Others doing stuff to you does not cause it to go off. Your carelessness, however, can.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:

Food for thought:

FAQ
Quote:

Deflecting Attacks: Does an attack that is deflected count as a miss?

Update 5/29/13: If the attack is deflected, not only does the target take no damage, but any other effects (ability drain, negative levels, harmful conditions, and so on) associated with that attack do not occur. If the deflected attack is a touch spell or other effect that requires "holding the charge," the charge is not expended. For example, if a ghoul's claw attack is deflected, the target is not subject to the ghoul's paralysis ability from the attack. If a shocking grasp touch attack is deflected, the attacker is still "holding the charge."

The opponent deflecting your touch causes it not to fire. You still have it.

This is basically a required ruling, or else touch spells essentially cant miss. In addition, purposely grabbing someones hand is not the same as deflecting it.

Cevah wrote:


FAQ
Quote:

Touch Spells: Does wearing a gauntlet, cestus, or similar glove-like weapon count as "touching anything" for the purpose of accidentally discharging a held touch spell?

No.

Gloves don't count as an accidental touch.

Im not sure what the relevance is here? Also, again, basically required ruling or else touch spells can practically never be used, since things like magic rings or gloves would automatically discharge them.

Cevah wrote:


PRD
Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Others doing stuff to you does not cause it to go off. Your carelessness, however, can.

/cevah

How does one follow to the other? The quote has nothing whatsoever with others doing things to you.


@Cevah; I'm not quite following how your points are relevant. Disarming someone and deflecting an attack (i.e. deflect arrows) are different things. The enemy wearing a glove's relevance I'm completely lost on, and regarding the enemy using a touch attack, yes it is part of the premise of the question that the enemy has cast such a spell; the question is if you get an AoO from something (such as movement), can you use it to steal/disarm the charge.


On an unrelated note though, I kind of dislike the update to that first FAQ; it'd be rather neat if monks could use their ki to deflect/dissipate held charges with some sort of deflection technique. That would provide an interesting new take on their core niche. And now I need write up a monk archetype...

+1 to this thread.


I'd say if you were able to grapple the target it might work. If you could pin, manipulate or otherwise control who they touch then it'd totally work.

I'd have to say this would really only work in the specific situation that they prepare and move and you spell craft it properly because chill touch would be pretty nasty to absorb. :)

It'd be like in the movies where a character holds a precious something away from our hero preventing him from grabbing it.


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Cevah's point is that held charges are only released when the person holding the charge is taking some action - they are never released when someone else is taking an action that causes them to come in to contact with the charge holder. This rule is implied from the context of the FAQ's quoted.

There is a further implied rule that things you are already touching - gloves, your clothes, held weapons, etc, don't count as something that will discharge the spell so long as you don't lose contact with it, then come back into contact with it.


bbangerter wrote:

Cevah's point is that held charges are only released when the person holding the charge is taking some action - they are never released when someone else is taking an action that causes them to come in to contact with the charge holder. This rule is implied from the context of the FAQ's quoted.

There is a further implied rule that things you are already touching - gloves, your clothes, held weapons, etc, don't count as something that will discharge the spell so long as you don't lose contact with it, then come back into contact with it.

Thats a stretch, especially since the original rule says the charge discharges even if you touch someone accidentally.

Just because the FAQ rules off a bunch of things that can discharge it, doesnt mean thats the comprehensive list. Note also that in the case of the deflecting FAQ the caster is specifically doing something. In fact, even in the original question, the caster is intending to touch someone else and youre intercepting it.


I'll be honest. I'm disappointed this thread didn't go literal.


The real problem is that the accidental discharge rule is a holdover from 3.5 that Paizo has basically ignored since starting Pathfinder.

You wont find any rules or rulings that support it actually happening, and as a Baval pointed out, you will find a lot more that imply the caster has to expend some sort of action for the spell to discharge.

Also, regardless of anything else it definitely wouldn't be a Disarm maneuver. It's a spell, it's not physically held so you're not trying to remove it like Disarm would.

What you are trying to do is make a touch attack with some part of your body against a specific part of their body (usually a hand).

Unfortunately, without using optional rules for called shots you can't target individual parts of the body and so the whole thing is right out the window.

Personally, I don't think the idea is supported by the rules. And Paizo should probably just go ahead and remove that line about accidental discharges.


Baval wrote:


Thats a stretch, especially since the original rule says the charge discharges even if you touch someone accidentally.

Just because the FAQ rules off a bunch of things that can discharge it, doesnt mean thats the comprehensive list. Note also that in the case of the deflecting FAQ the caster is specifically doing something. In fact, even in the original question, the caster is intending to touch someone else and youre intercepting it.

How many times have you seen it played that being shot with an arrow discharges the wizards held charges?


What you might do is create a house rule that requires a concentration check every time someone with a held spell is damaged in any way to see if it is discharged.
To me this seems like a simple rule changed/addition that would put some limits on the casters and provide some benefits to those who bring pain and possibly disrupt those truing to bring magical pain or magical goodness to your foes.

But, having said that I have not done a thorough look through and analysis of all the little fiddly bits of the rules to see just how such a House Rule would impact the grater game. So please excuse me if I am missing something blatant that would really make this nonfunctional.
MDC


quibblemuch wrote:
I'll be honest. I'm disappointed this thread didn't go literal.

Removing all arms might stop you from delivering a touch attack but I'm not sure.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
I'll be honest. I'm disappointed this thread didn't go literal.
Removing all arms might stop you from delivering a touch attack but I'm not sure.

Nope. Held charges are not associated with a specific limb. A dragons could deliver a held charge as part of its normal bite attack, tail swipe, or wing buffet attacks.


bbangerter wrote:
Baval wrote:


Thats a stretch, especially since the original rule says the charge discharges even if you touch someone accidentally.

Just because the FAQ rules off a bunch of things that can discharge it, doesnt mean thats the comprehensive list. Note also that in the case of the deflecting FAQ the caster is specifically doing something. In fact, even in the original question, the caster is intending to touch someone else and youre intercepting it.

How many times have you seen it played that being shot with an arrow discharges the wizards held charges?

You make a good point, but I think most people rule that touch attacks can only be delivered with your hand (despite the fact that they can be delivered with unarmed strikes and natural attacks which can in turn be done with any body part)

I believe thats the most sensible ruling, with a hand waiving for the exceptions. Keep in mind that allowing this disarming trick isnt going to change gameplay very often, as the only time you would be able to use it is if an enemy casts a touch spell and holds the charge, then provokes an AoO. In my experience, most touch spells are delivered for free with the free touch you get as part of the casting, so no time for an AoO


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
I'll be honest. I'm disappointed this thread didn't go literal.
Removing all arms might stop you from delivering a touch attack but I'm not sure.

None shall pass.

[it's just a flesh wound].

... We'll call it a draw.

/cevah


A spell thief should have a bonus to do that.
Could you snag a haste spell by slipping in between the caster and a party member?

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