Improve Rogue / Ninja level 9

[Brakiri]

Greetings,

i need your help.
I'm playing an unchained rogue/ninja character (combi allowed by the GM) and my usefulness in combat is next to 0.
A lot of enemies can see through invisibility so my vanishing trick is not really helping and without a flanking buddy i can't do much (our Paladin is very slow and can't help much in this regard).

We have reached level 9 now and for this level up i like to do the following:

I've thought about following the "Canny Tumble", "Circling Mongoose"-line of feats.

So now my questions:

1. Is there a feat in this direction i have missed? I'm rather sure there is one additional feat that might help with this line of fighting style. But i can't remember what feat that was..had something to do with more movement during the attack or somthin..

2. Due to the fact that i don't like to retraint too many of my feats, i like to add one level of a martial class that would grant me one of those feats mentioned above (or an ability that would grant me one on those feats like the Brawler) as bonus feat OR on of these feats: Mobility, Spring Attack.

It would be very nice if you could help me out here..i often don't have the time to go through the whole online-SRD to find something that i need.

Thank you!

[Kileanna]

I've played a ninja and even though my build wasn't similar to yours I sometimes had some encounters in which I wasn't very useful as I was depending on my sneak attack to deliver large amounts of damage.
You mention your flanking buddy is slow. I usually delayed my initiative to match my flanking buddy so I let him attack first and then I got my flanking.For a ninja/rogue possitioning is very important and can make the difference between making 0 damage and being a killing machine. Even though your initiative is probably impressive there are many situations you don't want to go first. Initiative is cool when you are attacking invisible and you want to end your fight before it starts.If you need flanking it could be wiser to wait until your casters have buffed and you're flanking buddy has attacked. You're not only getting sneak attack bur also +2 on your atacks.As your BAB is not high that usually makes a difference.

[Brakiri]

Kileanna wrote:

I've played a ninja and even though my build wasn't similar to yours I sometimes had some encounters in which I wasn't very useful as I was depending on my sneak attack to deliver large amounts of damage.

You mention your flanking buddy is slow. I usually delayed my initiative to match my flanking buddy so I let him attack first and then I got my flanking.For a ninja/rogue possitioning is very important and can make the difference between making 0 damage and being a killing machine. Even though your initiative is probably impressive there are many situations you don't want to go first. Initiative is cool when you are attacking invisible and you want to end your fight before it starts.If you need flanking it could be wiser to wait until your casters have buffed and you're flanking buddy has attacked. You're not only getting sneak attack bur also +2 on your atacks.As your BAB is not high that usually makes a difference.

Hi Kileanna.

you are right, but we had a lot of fights in which i had to work alone. In the last 3 i waited for the right moment which never came so i was completely useless. That is the reason i would like some advise concerning the mentioned feats.
I would like to change my build in the direction that i can work alone if necessary.

[Letric]

IMO that line of feat is atrocious. You should check CMD checks, but remember that to avoid AoO it's 5+CMD.
As far as I know CMD checks get pretty crazy at high levels.
I think the standard is like 25 CMD. That would be a 30 check to avoid AoO.
This is without considering the fact that each additional enemy adds +2 to the check.
At level 9 you should have
9 Ranks + 6 DEX + 3 Class Skill + 5 Boots = 23. I don't think it's that much imo, but best course of action is to check what are the average CMD. This sounds like metagamey but when you make a Trip based character and it turns out most enemies fly you feel kinda useless.

Also, if your paladin can't flank with you maybe get a someone to summon something, or use an animal companion.
Flank should be the primary option.
If you really CAN'T flank, I think going Feint or Shatter Defenses is another option.

[nicholas storm]

I believe that counting on flanking with another player sucks, unless you play with a large party of people that like to play melee characters.

My preference will always be to create flanking yourself - either with a cohort (leadership) or mount (pack flanking) or if you are raffolk through a mauler familiar/mount/cohort (scurrying swarmer).

You can do pack flanking with 2 feats and a horsemaster's saddle. Though of course without an animal companion, your mount will be fragile.

[Kileanna]

I don't think flanking with another group member sucks, but I think you have to play with a very coordinated group to do so. In most of my gaming groups I wouldn't even consider playing a rogue/ninja/etc. because of it. I love teamwork, but not everybody does.
Before thinking on taking enemies by yourself you might consider asking someone in your group to summon creatures to provide flanking or something like that if it's possible .

[Scott Wilhelm]

Brakiri wrote:

i need your help.

I'm playing an unchained rogue/ninja character (combi allowed by the GM) and my usefulness in combat is next to 0.

It would help if I knew more about your character: weapons, race, the Feats and abilities it already has, but as it is, I do have some ideas about where to take a character like this.

Brakiri wrote:

A lot of enemies can see through invisibility so my vanishing trick is not really helping... Is there a feat in this direction i have missed?

Improved Initiative: might as well start off with the obvious. Initiative often begins at Range, so best carry around a bow to maximize your chance of getting off at least 1 shot with Sneak Attack Damage against your Flatfooted opponent.

Feinting: A level 9 Unchained Rogue probably already has a high Bluff Mod, and you might acquire a Mask of the Stony Demeanor for under 1000gp that will give your Bluff an extra +5. The 2 Feats here are Improved Feint and Greater Feint.

Dirty Tricks: The Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver can be used to make your opponents both Blind and Deaf. Neither Scent nor Tremorsense negate Total Concealment, so those creatures are probably negating your Invisibilty with Blindsight Ability or the Blind Fighting Feat, and those work via keen or skillful hearing. Deafen your opponent with your Dirty Trick, then Vanish as a Swift Action. That should do the trick for getting your Sneak Attack Damage back. You can take any 1 Combat Feat as a Rogue Talent. In addition, the Talent Underhanded Trick gives you Improved Dirty Trick. Since you are an Unchained Rogue, you probably dumped Strength for Weapon Finesse and Dex to Damage, so you will need to take the Agile Maneuvers Feat. You were thinking about a Martial Class dip. Think about Fighter with the Lorewarden Archetype. You get Combat Expertise as a Class Ability at level 2 and a +2 on all things Maneuvery as a Class Ability at level 3.

Intimidate: Shatter Defenses in conjunction with Dazzling Display and Cornugeon Smash feats can make your opponents Flatfooted, and you can lock in your opponents Flatfooted, which sometimes is the best way to deny your opponent his Dex Mod to AC.

Brakiri wrote:

I've thought about following the "Canny Tumble", "Circling Mongoose"-line of feats....

Circling Mongoose and Canny Tumble seem like feats for achieving flanking with your Paladin Friend. But you were saying,

Brakiri wrote:

our Paladin is very slow and can't help much in this regard).... I would like to change my build in the direction that i can work alone if necessary.

So do you still want advice in this direction? I have a lot of ideas if you want them.

Brakiri wrote:

i like to add one level of a martial class

Cavalier If you take even 1 level in Cavalier, you can take Broken Wing Gambit as a Bonus Teamwork Feat, and you will have the Tactician Ability to give it to everybody else. If you do this, everybody in your party, you especially, should take Combat Reflexes, because when you have BWG up and running, whenever anybody gets attacked, all your allies get an Attack of Opportunity on the guy that hit any of you!

Fighter with the Archer Archetype: With 3 levels in this, you can Feint with your Bow to get your Sneak Attack Damage.

Ranger: are minor magic items readily available in your campaign such as they are in Pathfinder Society? Even 1 level in Ranger lets you use Ranger Wands, and there are some very good level 1 options: Negate Aroma, Lead Blades, and Gravity Bow. A second level in Ranger will give you a cool bonus Feat like Precise Shot or something else if you want to go in a different direction. I like the Freebooter Archetype for a 1 level dip in Ranger. Freebooter's Bane is much more useful than Favored Enemy in my experience.

Alchemist: Not a martial class, but Alchemist is the little black dress, khaki pants, ketchup, salt, and pepper of dip classes: it goes with anything and for every occasion. You'll get lots of self-buffing options. If you go Vivisectionist, your Sneak Attack Damage will continue going up. You might consider Grenadier: with 2 levels in Grenadier Alchemist, you can add alchemist fire, acid, lamp oil or something to your arrows to do extra damage. With the Explosive Missile Discovery available at level 4 Alchemist, you can add your Bombs to your arrows. I bet that a lot of those monsters that are immune to Sneak Attack Damage aren't immune to exploding arrows. Exploding arrows are cool. You can put your alchemal treats on Marker Dye Arrows and target against Touch AC.

Arcane Trickster: it might be that the best way for you to go is to give up on being effective in combat and go Arcane Trickster. 3 levels in Wizard, and you can start taking levels in AT. Using your magic to enhance your Skills, you will be a super skill monkey ghost master of disguise, ferreting out the clues to point your party in the right direction. Meanwhile you might find magical countermeasures against all those see-invisible monsters.

Brakiri wrote:

i don't like to retrain too many

I hate to tell you this, but that might be just what you have to do. Some of the stuff I'm talking about involves putting together combinations of several feats and abilities in combinations over several levels. Level 9 is already high enough level where you might be going to start having to go on a lot of adventures before your next level: it's kind of late for revamping your character without lots of retraining. Talk about it with your GM, and keep an open mind.

[Brakiri]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Circling Mongoose and Canny Tumble seem like feats for achieving flanking with your Paladin Friend. But you were saying,

I think someone (me or you) misread these feats.

There nothing in these feats that says something about needing someone else.
Circling Mongoose can be done without a flanking body. It doesn't NEED "loose dex to AC" it grants it.

Anyway thank you all for your advice. My char retired last Friday, BUT i will mark this thread for the future because i like rogues and i will play one again. :)

Thanks!

Best wishes
Brakiri

[Scott Wilhelm]

Brakiri wrote:

I think someone (me or you) misread these feats. ... Circling Mongoose can be done without a flanking body. It doesn't NEED "loose dex to AC" it grants it.

That would be me. I totally didn't read that carefully enough. Circling Mongoose is a lot cooler than I realized.

I have an idea for a Goblin Unchained Rogue Monk Master of Many Style with Panther Style Feats, and Circling Mongoose is totally the way to go with this!

[Cory Stafford 29]

Don't rely on sneak attack for damage. Pump you dex and use slashing grace or agile weapons and piranha strike. Try to get sneak attack when you can, but when you can't, you can still do decent damage.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I was just realizing that neither Circling Mongoose nor Canny Tumble would actually work with Panther Style Feats. The would sort of work in tandem, but that's not quite as cool.

To get the most out of those, you'd need to maximize your full attack, say with a Natural Attack Build. Make your Unchained Rogue a Tengu with Claws, a level in White Haired Witch, and Helm of the Mammoth Lord.

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

Don't rely on sneak attack for damage.

It's always best to diversify. Maybe take a level in Warpriest and Ranger. Acquire a Wand of Strong Jaw so you can make your base Damage for your natural attacks 2d6.

Maybe work in a Grappling Feature, Greater Grapple, Expert Captor, and Hamatula Strike to tie it together with your full attack. Wear Armor Spikes, so you do damage with yoru Grapple, too. And since the Grapple is a seperate attack roll, your Armor Spikes will do Sneak Attack Damage, too!

On the other hand, what is immune to precision damage in Pathfinder? Oozes and incorporeals? I wouldn't think you'd grapple them either.

[Brakiri]

Hi,

i did add the agile stuff to my attacks via 4 levels of unchained rogue, so i have specialized (Knife Master), my TW-Damage is 14d+8 and 1d4+4.
But for enemies with over 150HP, that's not doing much ;)

Don't worry, GM approved this build.

[Kileanna]

Incorporeals are not exactly immune. I bought a third weapon with ghost touch and I only use it to deal with incorporeal creatures and it's totally worth it. I didn't add it to my main weapons as it would be too expensive.
Elementals are immune to precission damage too.