[WIP] My brain hurts... good thing I don't need it!!! Marshmallow's guide to the fighter [WIP]


Advice

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DrDeth wrote:

I really dont like the idea that you must make your Fighter a drooling moron or uncouth loser.

if the only way a guide will work is by dumping, then IMHO the guide doesnt work.

Maybe you can not recommend dumping but just suggest it as a alternative?

Also "As far as Pathfinder RPG is concerned, the only real way to tank is with a silly feat called Antagonize" is incorrect. Yes, in MMO, there is a role called "tank". the role is not the same as in D&D where the Tank role (which existed before there were MMO games) is a heavily armored high HP guy who can block corridors, and being in front in combat, often get the less tactical foes to hit him first.

You are writing this guide for PF, not for MMOs. The term "tank" doesnt mean the same. What you call "power turtle" is in fact the D&D/PF "tank".

Power turtle isnt a necessary, or even particularly useful role in pathfinder. Its the least efficient option available for fighter. You can play the role of anvil just fine without choosing a weakened DPR output.


Do you plan to add Intimidation Feats (Hurtful, Pile On, Shocking Bellow) from the Monster Codex ?
Hurtful is great in combination of Cornugon Smash, others are less interresting...


Yondu wrote:

Do you plan to add Intimidation Feats (Hurtful, Pile On, Shocking Bellow) from the Monster Codex ?

Hurtful is great in combination of Cornugon Smash, others are less interresting...

yes

Good catch


most of those if not all are not PFS legal. Hurtful I know is not.


Might also be worth mentioning the bullying blow feats while only available to orcs they could be a great way to play an intimidate build


also not PFS legal


Minor update: I think I'm done with Class Feature Staples

Changed the notation for stamina to have an [S] after each entry where Stamina applies, and if there's a difference there should be a sentence or two describing it.

Added in the bits about dump stats.

I'm trying to decide how best to organize the Combat Specialization feats, which will mostly cover all combat feats that I haven't already gotten to. I'm considering doing it by role, but that would seem inefficient to me.


Declindgrunt wrote:
Might also be worth mentioning the bullying blow feats while only available to orcs they could be a great way to play an intimidate build

Racial feats are useful

I may add them.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
also not PFS legal

due respect but who cares? PFS feat control hurts martials far more than casters and exacerbates a martial/caster disparity. There's nothing particularly great about PFS legal.

Dark Archive

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Ryan Freire wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
also not PFS legal
due respect but who cares? PFS feat control hurts martials far more than casters and exacerbates a martial/caster disparity. There's nothing particularly great about PFS legal.

Myself, I completely ignore PFS legality as I have no interest in running or being apart of a PFS campaign.

That, and because as a DM I explicitly allow at least certain 3rd party resources with a few being required components of my campaigns.

Pathfinder Specialty offers nothing I am interested in. More, I feel Organized Play has in some ways hurt the hobby as a whole while setting certain expectations among players and DMs that I disagree with.

All in all, not a fan.


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I think there are people who are going to read the guide who want to play PFS or can't find a game that isn't PFS, so having some sort of note to address their concerns is reasonable.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Ryan Freire wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
also not PFS legal
due respect but who cares?

m_m probably does, so he can note it in his guide.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think there are people who are going to read the guide who want to play PFS or can't find a game that isn't PFS, so having some sort of note to address their concerns is reasonable.

Yeah but they should be up to speed on that by looking at the PFS rules.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

But the guide is much more user friendly if it's the only place the reader need look.


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m_m has asked for help in finding out which options aren't PFS legal as they don't play PFS and thus don't know off hand. And rather then them spending more time looking they opened up for others to help notify them.


For sure, it's way easier to have a complete guide that notes the PFS stuff.

I'm striking out the names of any option that is not legal in PFS, and if you notice something that should be noted please feel free to post itt or PM me.

I want a guide that appeals to everyone.


master_marshmallow wrote:

For sure, it's way easier to have a complete guide that notes the PFS stuff.

I'm striking out the names of any option that is not legal in PFS, and if you notice something that should be noted please feel free to post itt or PM me.

I want a guide that appeals to everyone.

And you do, keep going, you're doing a great job...


Yea man I love the guide, first time in a long time that I've been wanting to play a fighter

Liberty's Edge

How about making two guides? One PFS legal and one not.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Power turtle isnt a necessary, or even particularly useful role in pathfinder. Its the least efficient option available for fighter.

Not true in my gaming experience. A well-rounded character, and 90% of the characters I have encountered in my different gaming groups, have more than one aspect to them "Power turtle" (or tank, as most people call it) is one aspect that can be part of a character. Its usually paired with a secondary role of some kind, since you need to be a threat or at least have some kind of other role in the party. Heck I've done it with a cleric and a barbarian. Avoiding damage is way to avoid spending resources on healing, but I'd be really surprised if someone picked that as a singular role in their party. As far as "Is it a good role for a fighter?" I can't say for sure.


memorax wrote:
How about making two guides? One PFS legal and one not.

I think I'll include a section at the end for sample builds and go over some PFS stuff.

Two guides would be too much at this time, I think making sure the guide recognizes what is and isn't legal should be good enough until I get to the builds.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Power turtle isnt a necessary, or even particularly useful role in pathfinder. Its the least efficient option available for fighter.
Not true in my gaming experience. A well-rounded character, and 90% of the characters I have encountered in my different gaming groups, have more than one aspect to them "Power turtle" (or tank, as most people call it) is one aspect that can be part of a character. Its usually paired with a secondary role of some kind, since you need to be a threat or at least have some kind of other role in the party. Heck I've done it with a cleric and a barbarian. Avoiding damage is way to avoid spending resources on healing, but I'd be really surprised if someone picked that as a singular role in their party. As far as "Is it a good role for a fighter?" I can't say for sure.

I rated it blue because it's something the fighter can do better than anyone else, and if you ever wanted to build one the fighter is the class to do it with.

Fighters that serve as secondary combatants who have a tank (by my guide's language) will appreciate the role as it allows the team to focus its resources on healing the other guy because you can handle yourself by not getting hit. It's also the only role that primarily uses a shield, and I consider it a different role from the others for that reason, as even tanks by other players standards would agree that not being able to get hit by enemies will lead them to avoid you and attack the other members of your team rather than attacking you. To me, this tactical difference means a power turtle by definition cannot serve as a tank. I'll include some language describing that.

EDIT: having read through a lot of the options the fighter actually has, I've changed the Tank's rating to blue, but included language that shows how resource intensive the role is.


I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of the fighter archetypes. I'm pretty sure the new AWT and AAT changes how some of the archetypes are rated. I'm loving this guide. =)


Outside of VERY specific builds, I think many archetypes are terrible now. You are giving so much more power than you exchange. I think some of the Fighter archetypes need to be reprinted to replace less of the weapon training and armour training and replace more feats. AAT and AWT are more or less your major customization tools now. Much like a Rogue's talents or a paladin's mercies. Losing them should be weighted far higher.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Power turtle isnt a necessary, or even particularly useful role in pathfinder. Its the least efficient option available for fighter.
Not true in my gaming experience. A well-rounded character, and 90% of the characters I have encountered in my different gaming groups, have more than one aspect to them "Power turtle" (or tank, as most people call it) is one aspect that can be part of a character. Its usually paired with a secondary role of some kind, since you need to be a threat or at least have some kind of other role in the party. Heck I've done it with a cleric and a barbarian. Avoiding damage is way to avoid spending resources on healing, but I'd be really surprised if someone picked that as a singular role in their party. As far as "Is it a good role for a fighter?" I can't say for sure.

I rated it blue because it's something the fighter can do better than anyone else, and if you ever wanted to build one the fighter is the class to do it with.

Fighters that serve as secondary combatants who have a tank (by my guide's language) will appreciate the role as it allows the team to focus its resources on healing the other guy because you can handle yourself by not getting hit. It's also the only role that primarily uses a shield, and I consider it a different role from the others for that reason, as even tanks by other players standards would agree that not being able to get hit by enemies will lead them to avoid you and attack the other members of your team rather than attacking you. To me, this tactical difference means a power turtle by definition cannot serve as a tank. I'll include some language describing that.

EDIT: having read through a lot of the options the fighter actually has, I've changed the Tank's rating to blue, but included language that shows how resource intensive the role is.

Yeah actually revisiting both the advanced weapons training and advanced armor training options I've changed my mind on this, they definitely don't have to tank offensive output completely anymore. If nothing else they can bane up their weapon.

Fighter's tactics + intercept charge seems incredibly promising too.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Outside of VERY specific builds, I think many archetypes are terrible now. You are giving so much more power than you exchange. I think some of the Fighter archetypes need to be reprinted to replace less of the weapon training and armour training and replace more feats. AAT and AWT are more or less your major customization tools now. Much like a Rogue's talents or a paladin's mercies. Losing them should be weighted far higher.

I think some of the ability the archtypes give you should be incorporated into the Advanced weapon training and Adanced armor training. Kind of like the unchained monk.

Hmm whats the interaction between AWT and archtypes that make your WT forced to focus on one type of weapon. Polearm master for example.


Stamina makes some of the archetypes work too, like Child of Acavna and Amaznen who benefit from the Stamina tricks on Arcane Armor Training (free action to cast spells with basically no ASF thanks to the improved way armor training works for them) and Arcane Strike who can increase its duration.

I'll get to at least some of the archetypes eventually.

I'm going through the list of combat feats that I see on the SRD(s), and I'm only including stuff that I know is Paizo material and I'm avoiding racial stuff that isn't going to be purple or blue to cut down on bloat.

Combat feats through B are done, though expect Critical feats, Style feats, and Teamwork feats to show up in their own section(s) later.

I've also updated some of the language to clarify some of the issues that have been discussed here, hopefully everything makes sense within the context of the guide itself.


You can also add Deadly Stroke in the intimidation line.
Do you plan to add the divine fighting techniques to the guide ?
Some of them are really nice (Gorum, Iomedae, my personal favorite Desna..)


Ray Shield looks like a really good defensive feat, especially since many of it's prerequisites are rated quite highly in the guide.


I would rate Bravery as better than Red -- now that Advanced Weapon Training is a thing, check out Armed Bravery.

Armed Bravery (Ex) The fighter applies his bonus from bravery to Will saving throws. In addition, the DC of Intimidate checks to demoralize him increases by an amount equal to twice his bonus from bravery. The fighter must have the bravery class feature in order to select this option.

Suddenly, your bad Will Save actually becomes okay, and if you stack this with Iron Will, it actually becomes pretty good, although still not champion unless you seriously pumped Wisdom or manage to get some other bonuses.

Edit: You actually have this later when you get to Advanced Weapon Training, but didn't update the rating in the Class Features section.

Also, under Maneuver Monkey, you say you can't trip something that is flying. Check out Ace Trip, and drool . . . .

Edit: I just finished the section before Feats, but I did a text search through the document and didn't find Ace Trip. If you are going to do significant ranged fighting, you want this . . . .

Silver Crusade

Excellent guide thus far.

Please include some builds, the options are overwhelming.

Some which you allude to in your guide include Intimidate master, Charismatic swordsman, Tank and that smart crafter/blacksmith idea which works by keeping his stuff working or magical.

As the guide relies heavily on newer options like Unchained, can you consider the Background Skills options? It's not for a complete build, that would be outside the scope, but the background skills options make that magical blacksmith very strong for example. Or a pirate sailor with the Barroom Brawler feat you approve of. Or a weapons and tactics expert with Profession Soldier and Nobility. Some of these can have some mechanical usefulness as well as real personality which especially help with a Fighter who doesn't come with roleplaying class features normally.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Outside of VERY specific builds, I think many archetypes are terrible now. You are giving so much more power than you exchange. I think some of the Fighter archetypes need to be reprinted to replace less of the weapon training and armour training and replace more feats. AAT and AWT are more or less your major customization tools now. Much like a Rogue's talents or a paladin's mercies. Losing them should be weighted far higher.

I think some of the ability the archtypes give you should be incorporated into the Advanced weapon training and Adanced armor training. Kind of like the unchained monk.

Hmm whats the interaction between AWT and archtypes that make your WT forced to focus on one type of weapon. Polearm master for example.

Zero. While you have something similar to Weapon Training, you don't actually have weapon training. If the feature states it is weapon training, like the weapon master, you qualify. This is one of the major flaws of the new abilities. They were decidedly made weaker by not including the pseudo-weapon training options in many of the archetypes.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

I would rate Bravery as better than Red -- now that Advanced Weapon Training is a thing, check out Armed Bravery.

Armed Bravery (Ex) The fighter applies his bonus from bravery to Will saving throws. In addition, the DC of Intimidate checks to demoralize him increases by an amount equal to twice his bonus from bravery. The fighter must have the bravery class feature in order to select this option.

Suddenly, your bad Will Save actually becomes okay, and if you stack this with Iron Will, it actually becomes pretty good, although still not champion unless you seriously pumped Wisdom or manage to get some other bonuses.

Edit: You actually have this later when you get to Advanced Weapon Training, but didn't update the rating in the Class Features section.

Also, under Maneuver Monkey, you say you can't trip something that is flying. Check out Ace Trip, and drool . . . .

Edit: I just finished the section before Feats, but I did a text search through the document and didn't find Ace Trip. If you are going to do significant ranged fighting, you want this . . . .

I'm trying to rate each option or feature based on its own merits, rather than as part of a whole, unless they are part of a chain.

I haven't gotten to Weapon Mastery feats yet, I'm on the big section of the guide [regular combat feats] and I expect it to take a minute to get through all of them, and as I go through I keep catching things that belonged in the other sections, so other sections are expanding as well.

Weapon Mastery feats will be part of the last section on feats, when I go over the fighter specific stuff and the different styles to use.


0o0o0 O 0o0o0 wrote:

Excellent guide thus far.

Please include some builds, the options are overwhelming.

Some which you allude to in your guide include Intimidate master, Charismatic swordsman, Tank and that smart crafter/blacksmith idea which works by keeping his stuff working or magical.

As the guide relies heavily on newer options like Unchained, can you consider the Background Skills options? It's not for a complete build, that would be outside the scope, but the background skills options make that magical blacksmith very strong for example. Or a pirate sailor with the Barroom Brawler feat you approve of. Or a weapons and tactics expert with Profession Soldier and Nobility. Some of these can have some mechanical usefulness as well as real personality which especially help with a Fighter who doesn't come with roleplaying class features normally.

I actually mentioned and linked to the Background Skills rules, and any skill that can be taken as a background skill is in italics.


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Bandw2 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
I am also morally opposed to the color orange existing, I do not know why.
but your icon...

O.O

MY LIFE IS A LIE!!!!!


Regular Combat feats are done, now I'm going to include a section that lists the necessities for each combat role, and by now I mean later I've been in this chair for hours.

Help with the PFS stuff would be much appreciated.


Reading through this guide has me wanting to play a fighter for the first time! Thank you for all the hard work you have, and will, put into this, M_M!


Added in Combat Maneuver stuff, but I'll need to include more language on how they all work, because all their stamina stuff works the same.

I hope in my list of essential feats I didn't miss anything, feel free to post opinions and suggestions.

I'm tackling teamwork feats next, followed by critical feats and styles applicable to the fighter.

Then a small section on traits and equipment, then builds. I'll call that version 1.0

Multicasting options and archetypes I'll tackle in version 1.1.

Thanks for everyone's patience, I work retail and with the holiday coming up I have spent a lot more time being busy than I'd like, I also have my weekly game tomorrow that I really need to prep for. Expect more updates next week.


Didn't see Violent Display, which allows you to use Dazzling Display as an immediate action upon confirming a critical hit (or dealing sneak attack damage). Seems like it should be among the intimidation feats.


yeti1069 wrote:
Didn't see Violent Display, which allows you to use Dazzling Display as an immediate action upon confirming a critical hit (or dealing sneak attack damage). Seems like it should be among the intimidation feats.

I didn't cover Skinwalkers, but I may include it.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

Very nice going. Keep up the good work.


Teamwork feats done.

Styles next.


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I think I just read every feat in the entire game.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

feats I think are done.

Next project is equipment, then builds.

Then version 1.0 will be done, thanks for everyone's patience.

RE: PFS stuff, I have no idea, you have a lot of reading to do.


Archives of Nethys has a PFS Legal symbol in many of their pages -- you could probably get a quick list of most of what you want by looking there. Then you might have to get a few corrections because Archives of Nethys doesn't seem to have been updated since 2016-08-07.


Not sure what you've got against Upsetting Shield Style/Strike. TWF with (effectively) a light shield and a light or one-handed weapon is OK, and giving the enemy a -2 to attack and getting some extra attacks on them seems like a reasonable use of a couple of feats. US Vengeance may be overkill though.

OTOH Fox Style and the feats to make use of it costs a lot of feats. It's not the prereqs, it's that feinting effectively wants you to get into TWF and then spend more feats, then there's the style on top of that. Green, surely - not even fighters have infinite feats.

By my reading Stealth Synergy lets you all share the highest roll but you apply your own modifiers. If you want to use this you need to invest in stealth still.

Friendly Fire has the problem of prereqs. You need an ally in melee with point blank shot, precise shot and this feat (or they need you there with the same), or if using solo tactics then you have to be in melee and allow someone to use friendly fire past you - it doesn't work the other way around.

Aid Another is specialised enough that it makes Covering Fire green IMO.

Vital Strike is generally a trap. Yeeess, it can be OK in certain situations with a build focused on it, but that's not blue IMO.

In the TWF line, Greater TWF is often not worth taking. There are so many feats for TWF, and a 6th attack at -10 is often not the best use of one.

Stunning Irruption has the problem that RAW you're affected too. Best with a sane GM who's willing to overlook that.

Snap Shot (& successors) let you threaten but don't change the language on flanking - which applies only to melee attacks.


I have read Stealth Synergy differently from you, you all take the highest roll and add all your modifiers. That's the RAW.

Upsetting Shield is redundant imo with other feats that make bucklers better, and it's not a strong weapon on its own to invest into.

I'll make Fox Style blue, but Dirty Trick is one of the best maneuvers to invest into.

Friendly Fire seems to work fine, it's worded carefully so you can treat your ally as having the feat and it says it provokes, doesn't say something like "the ally can attack as an immediate action" which is more limiting.

Vital Strike is blue with investment, I'll be sure to make note of that.


what investment can make vital strike blue?


Chess Pwn wrote:
what investment can make vital strike blue?

Focused Weapon, and Warrior Spirit (or actual gold) to make your weapon Impact, increasing the damage dice to 3d8. Meaning with Vital Strike Maxed out for 12d8 damage instead of whatever single or double die roll you had going.

Plus the Divine Fighting technique that lets you do it on a charge and the stamina tricks that let you do it with an AOO.


That is a very debated view that sacred weapon damage interacts at all with impact.
Plus it's still at least a 3 feat chain to keep competitive. And a forth for the Divine fighting technique, and that one only ever stays at vital strike and doesn't ramp up to greater or improved.

Like I'd rate them at most green and say if you really want to focus a build to work with this then they can be okay. I don't see them as Blue, aka this is good and you should always take these feats.


Chess Pwn wrote:

That is a very debated view that sacred weapon damage interacts at all with impact.

Plus it's still at least a 3 feat chain to keep competitive. And a forth for the Divine fighting technique, and that one only ever stays at vital strike and doesn't ramp up to greater or improved.

Like I'd rate them at most green and say if you really want to focus a build to work with this then they can be okay. I don't see them as Blue, aka this is good and you should always take these feats.

Already did.

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