Mesmerist guide or builds?


Advice


So far there's just one half-completed Mesmerist guide. Is anyone planning to do a proper guide to this interesting class? Or, does anyone have some interesting Mesmerist builds?

Thanks in advance,

Doug M.

Grand Lodge

I've only seen this one which is probably the one you're talking about.

I'd be curious to see more guides and discussions, I've got a level 4 Eyebiter that I've had a lot of fun with.

One thing that I regret deeply is not taking Noble Scion(War) at first level to get Cha to initiative.

I'm really focused on making the eyeball familiar as cool/weird as possible, but here's my build so far:

Sorcerer 1(Crossblooded Fey/Serpentine), Mesmerist (Eyebiter) 3
- Fey bloodline familiar instead of a lvl 1 power. The Eyeball can now Fascinate as a bard. This came in spectacularly handy one time.
- Familiar is a Figment, usually with Skilled (Perception) as the evolution. With the +16 size bonus to stealth, it's a great scout.

Gnome w/
- Fey Magic(Urban) for Cure Light Wounds as a racial SLA.
- Gift of Tongues (+1 DC for language dependent spells)

Traits
- Adopted(Half Elf) for Bifurcated Magic (+1CL to two spellcasting classes)
- Mutant Eye for a third eye to pull out as the familiar. ;)

I just took Spell Focus(Enchantment) and Greater Spell Focus as feats, and throw around Daze, Command, Murderous Command, and Hideous Laughter mostly.

I took Shadow Splinter as my trick so far. It's been useful, usually stopping 8-9 damage is as good as a miss at low levels. But I'm looking forward to picking up the Mirror Image version at 5th and there are a lot of other tempting tricks like the smoke one, or dark vision.

I felt obligated to take Psychic Inception as my first stare, lest I be completely useless against mindless enemies. It's still pretty ineffective there though. :( I may end up retraining Serpentine bloodline into Impossible or Undead. But so far treating Animals/ Magical Beasts/ Monstrous Humanoids as Humanoids has helped a lot.


Bump. I think there's only the one half-completed guide, plus the MiniGuide to Bold Stares. But surely other people have builds?

Doug M.


Something I have heard of, but not seen in practise would be a Half Orc Vexing Dodger maxing Painful Stare, building yourself around the extra "damage". I'm terrible at building one though so wouldn't have a breakdown.

My personal style would be heavily focusing on enchantment and then picking up the Enforcer + Bludgeoner combination. The idea is that you shaken / sicken them with a weapon imparting penalties on saving throws, and then drop an enchantment or illusion spell to disable them for the remainder of the encounter.

I think there's a different variation on the above (credit to whoever thought it up) that goes Vox Mesmerist that combines Eldritch Heritage (Ghoul) with Spellstoring AoMF with Ghoul Claws and Persistent Castigate. IIRC its like Nightmare Stare into Wounding Words into Fearsome Guise (trick) into Fort Save against Ghoul Claws paralysis ability into multiple saves against Persistent Castigate. I haven't seen it actually done, but it sounds like an interesting idea.

Anyway, just some ideas if they help you out.


I was going to play one recently, but I was looking at my level 1 build and thinking "what the hell is this guy going to do on a shipwreck adventure?" Some classes take longer to get up to speed. Mesmerist is one of them. Depends on the setting though.


you could do a 'one big hit' build, since you can only use the painful stare once per round.

So an example:
-half orc for the favored class bonus (effectively doubles he static bonus to painful stare).
-Grab toughness 1st level... because you have little else that is really 'good', and this makes up for favored class bonus going elsewhere when you are a d8 melee type.
-Level 3 and level 5- power attack and furious focus. You want the most out of that one hit. Power attack for extra damage, furious focus because you only have one hit you care about, and you are a melee class with little attack bonus.
-level 7- intense pain, because it is a basic for getting more damage as a mesmerist.

Total bonus from the stare is about 9d6+20 (~52?), which is...nice enough, I suppose. Not great, but nice for something you can do after moving. Certainly enough to get a nice chunk to finish off an enemy after other melee characters have softened it up.

Much better if you add on combat reflexes and work as a reach caster. This would allow you a single relatively large AoO and you spend your actual turn casting enchantments and such.


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lemeres wrote:
you could do a 'one big hit' build, since you can only use the painful stare once per round.

There's actually a feat for that. Given BAB limitations on iterative attacks, however, those early second (third) activations are going to be from allies, not the Mesmerist. Which suggest a stare focused build to hugely debuff a tough enemy with party support to help apply those extra debuffs when Painful Stare triggers.

At 13th level with Manifold Stare (take twice, trigger painful stare up to three times per round), Compounded Pain (apply two debuffs), Demoralizing Stare (shaken), and Excoriating Stare (sicken) you can really hurt someone. (And have two feats left over, three if human.) Intense Pain if you want the extra damage, but I think debuff power is more important.

Apply extra damage three times, and for each hit they have to save (once for each penalty) to avoid being sickened and/or shaken. It's fair to assume that if they get hit three times, no matter for how little damage, they are going to have a -4 to hit and all saves, plus the effects of your stare debuff. That's pretty good! And you can do this from 30' feet away while your party beatsticks (or Wizard with a cantrip/magic missile...) apply the damage and you cast spells. Or get a Sharding weapon and throw your melee weapon from range if you're a dex build. Or...

Depending on your party build, you might only need one ally to help get the full effects. The rest can concentrate on other enemies.

Dark Archive

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2 Paladin (Divine Hunter) / X Mesmerist Archer Build. Take Magical Knack to get +2 to CL on Mesmerist and worship Erastil for the Deadeye bowman trait to shoot past one layer of soft cover with no penalty. Level dip nets you 1 free archery feat (precise shot) at level 1, CHA to all saves at level 2 (pump to 24 by level 11 for a +7 to all saves and bonus to your DCs), lay on hands for swift healing, 1/day smite for the boss fight, light/med armour and martial weapon proficiencies.

Use a Ifrit or Kitsune for the DEX/CHA bonus (Ifrit gives you +4 to initiative and -2 WIS which you really can dump but Kitsune takes -2 STR which will impact damage but opens up Magical Tail feats as well as a +1DC to enchantments). You can get your CHA to 24 by level 11 which helps with DCs, but you biggest DC impact will be from your debuff to Will saves via stares.

You should have rapid shot by level 3, deadly aim at 5, many shot at 8 (retrain level 7 feat due to BAB lag), deadly stare at 9, and cluster shot or spell focus enchantment at 11. You'll get so many arrows out that at least 1 is bound to hit and give the extra 1-4 D6 of precision damage from painful stare and help with DR.

You'll have good face skills and really only need to worry about DEX/CHA to have fun (STR at 14 is ideal to increase bow damage, INT for more skills, dump WIS as much as you feel comfortable). You should have enough skills to pump bluff/diplomacy/intimidate/UMD.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
lemeres wrote:
you could do a 'one big hit' build, since you can only use the painful stare once per round.

There's actually a feat for that. Given BAB limitations on iterative attacks, however, those early second (third) activations are going to be from allies, not the Mesmerist. Which suggest a stare focused build to hugely debuff a tough enemy with party support to help apply those extra debuffs when Painful Stare triggers.

At 13th level with Manifold Stare (take twice, trigger painful stare up to three times per round), Compounded Pain (apply two debuffs), Demoralizing Stare (shaken), and Excoriating Stare (sicken) you can really hurt someone. (And have two feats left over, three if human.) Intense Pain if you want the extra damage, but I think debuff power is more important.

Apply extra damage three times, and for each hit they have to save (once for each penalty) to avoid being sickened and/or shaken. It's fair to assume that if they get hit three times, no matter for how little damage, they are going to have a -4 to hit and all saves, plus the effects of your stare debuff. That's pretty good! And you can do this from 30' feet away while your party beatsticks (or Wizard with a cantrip/magic missile...) apply the damage and you cast spells. Or get a Sharding weapon and throw your melee weapon from range if you're a dex build. Or...

Depending on your party build, you might only need one ally to help get the full effects. The rest can concentrate on other enemies.

While I was not familiar with the details, I do realize that there is plenty a mesmerist can do from the back with stares.

I was just working off of the idea that... if they are making a 3/4 BAB class, and giving it a nice chunk of extra damage to attacks, then I might as well look at how to make a melee character out of it.


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The problem is that most 3/4 BAB characters have a class ability to improve their to-hit (Bard's can Inspire themselves, Hunters can flank with their animal, Warpriests have lots of options, Occultists/Magi enhance their weapons, etc.), but the Mesmerist doesn't.

The stare gives you more damage, but the -2 (-3) to will saves is there, too to enhance your spells over what any 6 level caster can do. So you're worse at hitting with weapons, but better at hitting with spells than any other 3/4 BAB 6/9 caster. Exploit that. Your stare damage and stare debuff feats will apply if others hit the target, let those who are better at it than you do it.

Round 1: Swift action stare. Cast either a save or suck/lose like Hideous Laughter or Hold Person (if its will save is relatively weak) or Ill Omen (if its particularly strong). Your allies can hit it and get a modest damage boost and once you qualify hopefully a stare effect debuff for one round.

Round 2: Swift action Intimidating Glance (this is better than the Shaken stare feat for success chance and duration, if not action economy). Cast another save or lose spell. It's very unlikely it will be in any shape to survive at this point.

If you really want to apply damage yourself, throw darts and go for a Dex build. Eventually get a returning weapon or similar if you want. Your increased Painful Stare damage will make up for the loss in damage die and strength bonus and you won't be a light armor class eating full attacks. Don't go MAD just to do something you'll never be better than weakly mediocre at, like melee combat.

Take the Spirit Walker archetype for running roughshod over undead, it's pretty much a no brainer. Mask Misery can replace Touch Treatment if you really think you need it for personal use. The action economy on Touch Treatment is often questionable for personal use, and really bad for saving party members, you can do without it.


The one big builds I've seen go vexing duelist, using the feint to increase their to hit and vital strike along with the Half-Orc and painful stare.

Grand Lodge

How does Vexing Duelist deal with Immune to Mind Affecting?

Seems like you lose Painful Stare and Dazzling Feint (their main source of damage and iteratives?,) and end up with an un-usable feat (Greater Mesmerizing Feint) because you can't Hypnotic Stare them and can't get Psychic Inception.


Yeah, Vexing Daredevil needs some errata. I had typed up essentially the same reply :)

I played around with a heavy melee damage Mesmerist that used the Fey Trickster archetype for Sense Vitals for Sneak Attack but ran into a few issues....

Human 10, 20, 14, 10, 10, 14
H: TWF
1: WFinesse
3: Manifold Stare
5: Great Fortitude or Weapon Focus
7: Intense Pain
9: Manifold Stare

Dmg @ 9th lvl:
3 x 1d4 + 4d6(IP) + 3d6 SA(SV) + 4
1 x 1d4 + 3d6 SA(SV)

The idea was to use a rod of quicken for Sense Vitals but that ran into problems since Hypnotic Stare is a swift action. There's no way to stare, buff, & attack on the 1st round.

Also, the To Hit is weak. If Sense Vitals worked w/ natural weapons (it specifically calls out manufactured weapons) I'd go w/ a Tengu for the 3 natural weapons. Adding a Bold Stare that lowered AC would help but that wouldn't change your damage output relative to others in the party.

It's kind of weird that there are stares that lower atk, dmg, DCs, saves, & SR but not AC.


lemeres wrote:

you could do a 'one big hit' build, since you can only use the painful stare once per round.

So an example:
-half orc for the favored class bonus (effectively doubles he static bonus to painful stare).
-Grab toughness 1st level... because you have little else that is really 'good', and this makes up for favored class bonus going elsewhere when you are a d8 melee type.
-Level 3 and level 5- power attack and furious focus. You want the most out of that one hit. Power attack for extra damage, furious focus because you only have one hit you care about, and you are a melee class with little attack bonus.
-level 7- intense pain, because it is a basic for getting more damage as a mesmerist.

Total bonus from the stare is about 9d6+20 (~52?), which is...nice enough, I suppose. Not great, but nice for something you can do after moving. Certainly enough to get a nice chunk to finish off an enemy after other melee characters have softened it up.

Much better if you add on combat reflexes and work as a reach caster. This would allow you a single relatively large AoO and you spend your actual turn casting enchantments and such.

on your big hitter idea I did a similar thing in conception

but instead of taking toughness + the combat feats I took casting focused feats and combat relfexes (went into swashbuckler to get parry riposte and Dex to damage)

but the bit thats relevant to your suggestion is taking Vexing Daredevil and surprise attack.

Action looks like this
Feint them and dazzling feint surprise attack
4D6 + 6 painful stare damage + 3D6 vampiric touch damage. (against flat footed touch AC, you probably hit before rolling)
Second attack from surprise attack Average weapon damage (so in my case 1D6 + 6)

for 8D6+12 and 3D6 temporary hit points, + it is more reliable.

I'm not exactly sure how you're getting 9D6 damage at level 7 care to enlighten?

EDIT: Manifold Stare actually makes this into a 12D6+18 damage round in theory. Which is pretty strong actually.

average damage 60 with average of 10 temp hit points. Not too shabby.

for my char this comes online at level 8 (cause of Swash) but for a pure mesmerist it comes on at 7.

Whats a havoc bloodline sorc doing at level? Wondering how big the gap is between this and the mainstream single big hit build is. I imagine still pretty large.

Second Edit: looks like a sorc focused on fire with scorching ray could be doing 12D6 + 24 by this level, so the gap isn't huge, but its worth noting next level they go up to 18D6+36 at which point that are ridiculous.

Also @Markov Spiked Chain - Vexing Daredevil looses Bold stares, which is all the additive effects tacked onto Hypnotic stare, they don't loose hypnotic stare itself, nor do they loose Painful stare.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
The problem is that most 3/4 BAB characters have a class ability to improve their to-hit (Bard's can Inspire themselves, Hunters can flank with their animal, Warpriests have lots of options, Occultists/Magi enhance their weapons, etc.), but the Mesmerist doesn't.

To be fair, the Mesmerist does have (1) cheap Improved Feint, and (2) a bunch of defensive tricks that increase his average survival time in melee. Feinting improves to-hit against targets with Dex bonuses, which is probably 50% of them at low levels rising to 80% by the time you're past 10th. -- That said, I agree with this:

Quote:
The stare gives you more damage, but the -2 (-3) to will saves is there, too to enhance your spells over what any 6 level caster can do. So you're worse at hitting with weapons, but better at hitting with spells than any other 3/4 BAB 6/9 caster. Exploit that. Your stare damage and stare debuff feats will apply if others hit the target, let those who are better at it than you do it.

Yes. The Mesmerist is obviously built to have the option of being a backup melee combatatnt if necessary. But I think an elaborate build designed to make him a melee monster is somewhat missing the point. If you want to go that route, there are dozens of AM BARBARIAN and superfighter builds. The Mesmerist has other strengths. Or so ISTM.

Doug M.


Hypnotic stare + color spray + light armor makes a mesmerist one of the best level 1 caster characters IMO. Maybe take the dreamstalker archetype for a few uses of the slumber hex to stretch out your spells/day, focus hard on charisma and you're set. I don't know where this 'slow to come online' comes from.


If a mesmerist wants to do Melee at early level its all about the tricks and feinting. I honestly don't know where people get the idea they can't keep up with other classes to hit.

Feinting + False flanker make it better at hitting than most classes at level one, or they can take Mesmeric Mirror for defense although I leave that till level 6 to coincide with getting the second mirror, although manifold tricks is online so the main melee can get a mirror too.


Feinting is bad action economy and especially inefficient if you're just using it to hit rather than get bonus sneak attack. You need to try to avoid eating full attacks in light armor, not play a style that encourages (only after you close) it just so that you can land one hit per round.

The action economy of tricks means you only get to use one per combat, so not only are you building towards only trying to land one hit per round, now you can only do this at maximum effectiveness/safety once per combat. I'd rather use my tricks to get that Ready for Battle +2 to initiative and as an insurance policy/tide turner when something goes wrong, not a beginning of combat sweetener to make my first hit easier. And when Manifold Tricks comes online I want to burn more on protecting/enhancing my more effective frontliners.

There's also the fact that the Mesmerist spell list has relatively few buffs and utility spells that you're going to use outside of combat. It seems really weird to focus your build on melee combat and make your 6th level casting a rarely used minor feature.

I'm sure you can build for melee and not be terribad at the role. But you're definitely a substandard Mesmerist not levering the class strengths and not contributing as effectively to your party if you go that way.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
The problem is that most 3/4 BAB characters have a class ability to improve their to-hit (Bard's can Inspire themselves, Hunters can flank with their animal, Warpriests have lots of options, Occultists/Magi enhance their weapons, etc.), but the Mesmerist doesn't.

Which is why I went the furious focus route, since the one hit it applies to works well with the one hit that a mesmerist wants with just the contemporary occult adventures material. A mesmerist with a furious focus hit hits about as well as a bard with just straight power attack.

I realize that I am skiing uphill a bit. But when the potential was at least slightly there, I didn't want to box myself into the thought that i 'can't' do melee. At least not without some particular archetypes (such as hate monger, which gets favored enemy) that were released later.

I mean... heck, people tried to get core rogue to work for years, and that had its defenders. And mesmerist should at least be more useful than THAT in straight melee, since it can get its damage off by itself without flank buddies, suprise attacks, or some situational flat footing thing.


The question is whether the marginal value of your weapon plus personal painful stare damage is more useful than casting a spell plus the lesser ally painful stare damage. I suggest that this comparison will rarely favor the mesmerist choosing to attack against tough opponents.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Feinting is bad action economy and especially inefficient if you're just using it to hit rather than get bonus sneak attack. You need to try to avoid eating full attacks in light armor, not play a style that encourages (only after you close) it just so that you can land one hit per round.

you sound an awful lot like you haven't actually bothered to try before discounting the suggestion.

Vexing Daredevil takes Outmaneuver at 3rd level

Feint implant Outmaneuver
Hit with Painful stare damage so at this level 3D6+1 assuming a D6 weapon plus whatever else you're doing with dex or strength or weapon enhancements
Take your free movement Aoo free that you get from Outmaneuver
Never eat a full round action again.

Feinting seems pretty good to me.

add false flanker or mesmeric mirror to taste

at level 6 implant greater feint, the party rogue loves your forever and both your tricks from manifold tricks are free to buff your or anyone else in the party. Or layer defenses on the rogue with mesmeric mirror.

Quote:


The action economy of tricks means you only get to use one per combat, so not only are you building towards only trying to land one hit per round, now you can only do this at maximum effectiveness/safety once per combat. I'd rather use my tricks to get that Ready for Battle +2 to initiative and as an insurance policy/tide turner when something goes wrong, not a beginning of combat sweetener to make my first hit easier. And when Manifold Tricks comes online I want to burn more on protecting/enhancing my more effective frontliners.

They have to interact with the flanking image to get a save against it, so they're using action economy to do that, properly played they should want to do so because until they know its an illusion for all they know moving away form it would afford it an Aoo on them.

also in the early levels everyone is trying to land one hit per round unless they have natural weapons so I'm not sure why Mesmerists doing so seems particularly repugnant.

Quote:


There's also the fact that the Mesmerist spell list has relatively few buffs and utility spells that you're going to use outside of combat. It seems really weird to focus your build on melee combat and make your 6th level casting a rarely used minor feature.

The level 7 build I suggested uses two feats a human can still take three more feats to benefit casting and a none human can take 2, Nothing about having the option to hit big hard and fast says you don't equally have the option to cast Color Spray or at level 4 Hold person or at level 7 ... whatever it is you want then with the added attractions of spell focus or whatever other casting feats you decide to take

Quote:


I'm sure you can build for melee and not be terribad at the role. But you're definitely a substandard Mesmerist not levering the class strengths and not contributing as effectively to your party if you go that way.

One of the classes strengths is feinting another is painful stare, it gets powers and Archetypes and feats geared towards making these abilities work. I'm not sure how choosing to ignore these features and focus on casting irregardless of the fact they get a paltry number of spells per day is somehow not leveraging its abilities.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Even without the Vexing Daredevil archetype, a mesmerist can be pretty safe against a big foe.

By 8th, you can stack the shaken, sickened, and fatigued conditions with the Disorientation bold stare improvement for a nice -8 to attack.

It takes two rounds to get all the effects, but many builds assume 1 round of buff/casting before moving in. Intimidating Glance, Fatiguing Stare, and a cruel weapon. Improved Feint just makes it easier to land the necessary hits.


I siding with Plausible here, I feel like your trying to polish a turd here.

Chromantics 3rd level build still requires a full action to pull off, move to feint and standard to attack, you still get an attack of opportunity against you, just a bonus on acrobatics. A normal character could just attack and move. Your not durable and you don't have good to hit. When it comes to big bads like giants, dragons and other large creatures your feint bonus will normally amount to 0 where as a Bards, Inquisitors, Warpriests, Magus bonus to hit will always be active.

If you broke down the 2/3rd casting classes with combat features to see how viable they are in melee I would see they Mesmerist coming dead last.

The Mesmerist seems to be the only 2/3rds probably geared towards offensive casting.

KingOfAnything wrote:


It takes two rounds to get all the effects, but many builds assume 1 round of buff/casting before moving in.

I guess it's different for own campaigns or maybe PFS but from playing in or running primarily campaign books the opportunity to get a free buff just before the fight is uncommon.


NoTongue wrote:

I siding with Plausible here, I feel like your trying to polish a turd here.

Chromantics 3rd level build still requires a full action to pull off, move to feint and standard to attack, you still get an attack of opportunity against you, just a bonus on acrobatics. A normal character could just attack and move. Your not durable and you don't have good to hit. When it comes to big bads like giants, dragons and other large creatures your feint bonus will normally amount to 0 where as a Bards, Inquisitors, Warpriests, Magus bonus to hit will always be active.

true they get an attack but a Acrobatics is a class skill, that to do this build you would be investing in, class skill + 3 ranks + 4 from the ability gives you a passive +10 without even considering Dex for dex builds you'd be looking at a passive 14 to beat the opponent's CMD

They have a worse to hit but they are hitting flat footed target and can easily be hitting a flanked flat footed target.

What level 3 melee build is facing off well against a dragon or a giant? off the top of my head, none of them.

They still have all their spells, not to mention nothing I've suggested doing opposes taking spells and using them against targets they out match, Mesmerists are generally better at fighting NPCs than monsters in melee. Against a giant cast Inflict pain.
Dragons are a weakness for Mesmerists I'll admit but I don't think a bard would fare much better in melee.

Quote:


If you broke down the 2/3rd casting classes with combat features to see how viable they are in melee I would see they Mesmerist coming dead last.

Mesmerist doesn't serve everything to you on a plate but you can easily be dancing around the field as a striker leaving enemies flat footed and flanked by level 6 and casting against enemies that it suits you to, such as a giant.

Quote:


The Mesmerist seems to be the only 2/3rds probably geared towards offensive casting.

As is the inverse of what I said above, other 2/3 classes don't give you everything on a plate to make it work, but it can be done, Spiritualists with an intimidate build working off their phantom can sink someone's saves pretty fast.

KingOfAnything wrote:


It takes two rounds to get all the effects, but many builds assume 1 round of buff/casting before moving in.
I guess it's different for own campaigns or maybe PFS but from playing in or running primarily campaign books the opportunity to get a free buff just before the fight is uncommon.

I think the effect he is talking about is something that one could do in combat fairly simply, but that is an educated guess at what he is doing.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
NoTongue wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:


It takes two rounds to get all the effects, but many builds assume 1 round of buff/casting before moving in.
I guess it's different for own campaigns or maybe PFS but from playing in or running primarily campaign books the opportunity to get a free buff just before the fight is uncommon.

Battle clerics casting divine favor or righteous might don't happen in your games?


The bonus say's plus 4 and that still doesn't resolve the issue that they will only be hitting the flat footed ac of opponents they start against.

Giants and Dragons where given as an example of the ever common large creature with High AC low dex and they are fairly common as final or tough encounters.

You don't oppose taking spells but you plan on a build that greatly weakens your spellcasting. In an attempt to stay competitive you will be investing in feats, stats and equipment. You will also give up touch treatment which is practically a form of spellcasting.

On whether the Bard would Perform better against dragons, yes he would. It's measurable, he will have a constant scaling bonus to hit and damage, better buff spells heroism for example which I'm surprised Mesmerists don't get considering it's a compulsion and that's base, you can do what you do and specialize with an archetype for superior combat abilities and you now even have the ability to trade out versatile performances for combat feats.

Your options for a melee Mesmerist are what other classes can do but better, even the hit and move thing is just better with spring attack and dervish dance.


And what spells can be identified as being useful in the Mesmerist's list?


NoTongue wrote:
The bonus say's plus 4 and that still doesn't resolve the issue that they will only be hitting the flat footed ac of opponents they start against.

what? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Quote:


Giants and Dragons where given as an example of the ever common large creature with High AC low dex and they are fairly common as final or tough encounters.

to which I provided an alternate solution, the build is better against high dex opponents, spells are for the low ones, tell me why using inflict pain or at higher levels hold monster partnered with hypnotic stare is in anyway hampered by this build?

all you shouldn't expect to pick up is spell perfection, there is room for most everything else a caster wants.

Quote:


You don't oppose taking spells but you plan on a build that greatly weakens your spellcasting. In an attempt to stay competitive you will be investing in feats, stats and equipment. You will also give up touch treatment which is practically a form of spellcasting.

explain to me exactly how its weakening spell casting, what it is doing is not focusing on spell casting, the build leaves room for feats like spell focus and metamagic, not that metamagic is that strong for 2/3 casters

you seem to have decided that by using your melee you can't possibly have casting feats or cast spells, which you absolutely can. In a long working day a mesmerist doesn't have enough spells to not engage in melee so may as well be decent at it.

Touch treaments being a form of spellcasting? bit of a stretch don't you think?

Quote:


On whether the Bard would Perform better against dragons, yes he would. It's measurable, he will have a constant scaling bonus to hit and damage, better buff spells heroism for example which I'm surprised Mesmerists don't get considering it's a compulsion and that's base, you can do what you do and specialize with an archetype for superior combat abilities and you now even have the ability to trade out versatile performances for combat feats.

Heroism is buffing your allies as much as your self, mesmerists can do the same with tricks.

Mesmerists have a scaling damage bonus which is better than the bards. They don't have the scaling to hit bonus but they can flank with themselves and like I said Dragons are a sticky point for Mesmerists, for the record I don't think a generic bard build would last much longer than a mesmerist of comparable level they'd both die without support.

Not to mention a mesmerist can be delivering painful stare damage through touch spells such as Vampiric touch from level 7. At which point low dex enemies become easily manageable so long as there aren't loads of them.

Quote:


Your options for a melee Mesmerist are what other classes can do but better, even the hit and move thing is just better with spring attack and dervish dance.

Spring attack and Dervish dance.

yeah that only takes 5 feats to set up as opposed to the suggestion I have made which takes precisely no feats, 3 if you want to go dex to damage.
A flat combat mesmerist taking Dex to damage takes 3 feats to be fully online and working. So it happens quicker than what you're suggesting and leaves LOADS of room for taking spell related feats. It just so happens that you can also hit things when spells would be wasted/less effective/ran out.


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Interesting builds? I am having a blast with Zannah Jadwiga Elvanna a.k.a Darth Zannah, my PFS Mesmerist/Telekineticist!

Mesmerist/2, Telekineticist/1

Female Human (Jadwiga)

14/15/13/10/10/16

Comprehensive Educaton instead of Skilled
Military Tradition instead of Bonus Feat

Magical Knack (Mesmerist)
Jadwiga Scion

EWP(Two-Bladed Sword), EWP(Shotel), TWF, PBS

She's all about mind-screwery and fear in particular. With 2 or 3 Kineticist levels, she will always have a ranged attack and a very small barrier. USE THE FORCE!
With 9-10 Mesmerist levels, she will have ample ability to make her enemies cower before her! Sith Sorcery at it's finest.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

A bard might be better in a party with many melee players, but the Mesmerist makes all the other casters in the party happy (-6+ to enemy Will saves? Yes, please). Of course, the best party composition would have one of each ;)


All arguing of the specifics aside, my point is that in Pathfinder casting spells is generally (much) better than inflicting damage. 6th level casters can usually be decent but not great damage dealers, and have relatively weak (comapred to 9th level casters) support/utility casting. The mesmerist turns that around by being merely respectable at physical combat and better than any other 6th level caster at potentially defeating enemies with his spells. So play to the system's and the class's relative strengths and build towards spell casting.

This can change depending on party composition. If you have two focused casters who are going to be happy to use your -2/-3 stare Will save debuff, but only one other melee capable party member to mix it up on the front line, then it makes more sense to build towards melee. As a general strategy, however, it's not the best.

But if you're playing for fun and you think a melee mesmerist is the most fun, go out and do that.


Let's talk about some non-spell casting, non-feinting build concepts. These mostly focus on archetypes.

1. Gaslighter archetype (evil only)

This archetype trades consumate liar's bluff and feint enhancements for intimidate and dirty tricks. Intimidate boost combos well with the Intimidating Glance feat, Signature Skill feat, and the Nightmare and Susceptibility bold stares. Make them run in fear. Dirty tricks aren't going to be great given typical 3/4 BAB CMB difficulties, but the Infiltration bold stare applies your stare penalty to their CMD, so that's...something. Maybe a dirty trick after you've already stacked some other penalties on them. Personally I wouldn't do this any more than I would feint.

You also get:

Horrid Mask wrote:

Horrid Mask (Su): At 3rd level, as

a standard action, a gaslighter can implant a maddening phantasm in the mind of the target of his hypnotic stare, causing the target to perceive its own reflection as corrupted in some disturbing way. This is a mind-affecting fear effect, and there is no saving throw. The target is simultaneously captivated and horrified by the sight of its own reflection, and in any round in which the target can see itself in a mirror within 30 feet, the gaslighter can trigger his painful stare against the target without dealing damage. This is a gaze attack, and the creature can avert its eyes to attempt to avoid it. Any creature holding a visible mirror that attempts to demoralize the target can choose to add the gaslighter’s Charisma modifier to its Intimidate check instead of its own. Horrid mask lasts until that particular hypnotic stare ends (often when the target moves away from a mirror). The gaslighter can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
This ability replaces touch treatment (minor) and alters painful stare.

The first round standard action to implant hurts, but after that you get to apply your Painful Stare damage/debuff attempt every round on your target's turn (50% if they avert their gaze). Can work well if you plan to max out Manifold Stares for max applications.

Not great, but I don't love Touch Treatment so I don't think you give up much.

Phantasmal Force wrote:

Phantasmal Force (Su): At 6th level, a gaslighter can force the target of his horrid mask ability to recoil from its reflection. Whenever the gaslighter uses horrid mask, if an affected target begins its turn adjacent to a mirror, it must succeed at a Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the gaslighter’s mesmerist level + his Charisma modifier) or be compelled to either flee from the mirror (or the creature holding it) to beyond 30 feet or attempt to destroy the mirror (or the creature holding it). This is a gaze attack, and the target can attempt to avert its eyes.

This ability replaces touch treatment (moderate).

I guess this has some potential crowd control utility, but it really depends on whether the GM is going to have the target flee, sunder your mirror, or attack you. You probably only want one of those to happen, and you don't get to choose.

Phantasmal Foes wrote:

Phantasmal Foes (Su): At 10th level, a gaslighter can spend one use of his horrid mask ability as a standard action to convince the target of his hypnotic stare that it is surrounded by foes only it can see. The target is treated as flanked for any melee attacks against it until the hypnotic stare ends. The gaslighter can use either this ability or horrid mask during a particular hypnotic stare, but not both at once. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

This ability replaces touch treatment (greater).

This is pretty good! The rogue/slayer will love you, as will Inquisitors or Cavaliers with Outflank.

Corrosion of Sanity wrote:

Corrosion of Sanity (Su): At 14th level, whenever a creature fails its initial saving throw against a gaslighter’s single- target mind-affecting effect, the target also takes 1 point of Wisdom damage. This has no effect on abilities that don’t allow a saving throw or affect multiple targets or an area. If using the sanity system (see page 12), the target takes 2 points of sanity damage instead.

This ability replaces touch treatment (break enchantment).

Booo.

Overall I think this is a side grade. Only the Intimidate boost and 10th level ability are helpful in combat, but you don't give up much other than some status removals that you're too busy to use in combat.

2. Mindwyrm Mesmer

Like Gaslighter, you lose consummate liar for an equivalent Intimidate bonus. See above for all the feats and bold stares that ensure you'll send enemies running on the second round of combat. Or just skip Intimidating Glance and do it on the first round, I guess. Instead of dirty tricks to replace the lost feinting, you don't take the -4 size penalty for intimidating things larger than you. This is obviously the superior intimidate build.

Quote:

Phantasmagoric Breath (Su): At 1st level, a mindwyrm mesmer has learned to mimic a true dragon’s destructive breath using his psychic ability. A number of times per day equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1 per day), a mindwyrm mesmer can unleash his phantasmagoric breath in either a 30-foot cone or a 60-foot line as a standard action. The breath induces a psychosomatic response in creatures caught in the area, dealing 1d6 points of energy damage at 1st level, plus an additional 1d6 points of energy damage at 3rd level and for every 2 mesmerist levels thereafter. The mindwyrm mesmer selects the type of energy damage this deals (acid, cold, electricity, or fire) when this ability is first gained; once made, this choice can’t be changed. Creatures affected can attempt a Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the mindwyrm mesmer’s mesmerist level + his Charisma modifier) to realize the true nature of the attack, which negates all damage. This is a mind-affecting effect.

This ability replaces painful stare.

Hmm. Would you rather have unlimited Painful Stare with (after feat investment) additional debuffs, or a few all or nothing breath weapon uses to clear out scrubs? I guess it depends. If you don't want to personally enter melee combat (and I don't think you should) and you want to invest your stare debuff feats in spell casting/intimidate feats this is defensible, but your supporting melee will miss it.

You also get unique access to a couple of special tricks. They aren't great.

I call this one a decent/flavorful pick for a caster/intimidate focused Mesmerist build. But probably a strict downgrade (but fun!) unless you're going Signature Skill (Intimidate).

3. Spirit Dancer.

C'mon, this is the default Mesmerist. You don't need that consummate liar nonsense. You need to shut down (or coopt) undead cold. Continued Animation is hilarious and well worth an immediate action. You don't want touch treatment or feinting. You want this. You need this.


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Your build requires that you start your turn next to an opponent. If you are not next to them then you cannot both feint and attack.

You also misread it, the bonus is +4 not +10. The 10 only mentions that you still take the minus 10 penalty for something.

How are you not aware of the idea of allocating resources. If I where to make any caster melee focused, Cleric, Druid, Bard I will be inferior at spellcasting vs someone who built towards that. You are allocating stats, magic items and feats towards that. You build will therefore be considerably weaker than a Mesmerist who was caster focused. There Stare will also be better for other party members and they will be using that trick for them instead of themselves. Even the idea of vampiric touch will be likely be better.

Your build has also lost the ability to potentially affect mind affect immune creatures. The main draw for Mesmerists over enchanter focused sorcerers.

It should have been obvious how it weakened your ability as a spellcaster, we are talking about builds after all. I didn't decide you can't have feats for both, I'm just pointing out the fact that making one better often weakens the other.

Your using those tricks for yourself in your melee build. A caster Mesmerist with more tricks due to a greater focus on charisma will be using them for his allies.

Mesmerists damage is ONE attacks. Bards bonus is every attack including allies, is not precision so can both be multiplied by crits and is not negated by crit immune creatures.

That's the Dervish Feat line which is 3 feats not 5. It's outright superior to the Mesmerist ability in that you can use it at 5. Not something I would recommend.

I was referring more to the Dervish Bard ability to make a full attack while moving.

If we are going for damage builds a sound striker / familiar bard can do 16d6 +12 somic damage as a ranged touch attack with his familiar and the post errata weird words at 8th level.

At 12 level that's 24d6 and 13 and a rod of quicken 36d6 using Shadowbard.


NoTongue wrote:
Your build requires that you start your turn next to an opponent. If you are not next to them then you cannot both feint and attack.

so? this is not a problem, if I don't start my turn standing next to them I have hundreds of options.

Quote:


You also misread it, the bonus is +4 not +10. The 10 only mentions that you still take the minus 10 penalty for something.

nope +10 comes from 3 ranks + class skill bonus + 4, the additional +4 to reach 14 is explicitly for Dec focused builds as I said. Please read thoroughly before insulting my intelligence. Or better yet, ask rather than assume.

Quote:


How are you not aware of the idea of allocating resources. If I where to make any caster melee focused, Cleric, Druid, Bard I will be inferior at spellcasting vs someone who built towards that. You are allocating stats, magic items and feats towards that.

comparisons with Clerics and Druids are a false equivalency they get more spells sooner. Bard is the only valid comparison and making a pure caster bard which ignores its combative potential is not only ignoring a considerable portion of its class, it is relying on extremely limited spell slots in the early game.

Quote:


You build will therefore be considerably weaker than a Mesmerist who was caster focused. There Stare will also be better for other party members and they will be using that trick for them instead of themselves. Even the idea of vampiric touch will be likely be better.

Not really, you can say it but that doesn't make it true, sure you can bump your CHA from 16 to 18 but thats really all thats their, you're still fully capable of taking caster focused feats.

Your stare will be worse, but your damage will be better, and no given that Vampiric touch damage scales on 1D6 per two levels and has no save it benefits very little from feat investment before Empower spell.
in fact a melee focused Mesmerist will get better use out of it as it is a pretty much assured hit with a melee mesmerist and they will have the ability to retreat which a caster mesmerist likely won't.

Quote:


Your build has also lost the ability to potentially affect mind affect immune creatures. The main draw for Mesmerists over enchanter focused sorcerers.

Not everyone plays a mesmerist because it can out do a enchanter sorc.

Mesmerists can eventually feint mindless creatures should they build to. So really caster and caster/melee hybrids can both eventually deal with mindless semi effectively but a fighter will almost always be better.

Quote:


It should have been obvious how it weakened your ability as a spellcaster, we are talking about builds after all. I didn't decide you can't have feats for both, I'm just pointing out the fact that making one better often weakens the other.

More MAD which goes without saying, but if we take that logic one may as well never play a mixed melee class again because SAD classes exist, beyond that it doesn't loose much, 3 feats is not that high a price. Weaker but not by any consequential degree, before spell perfection it amounts to 2DC lower tops.

Quote:


Your using those tricks for yourself in your melee build. A caster Mesmerist with more tricks due to a greater focus on charisma will be using them for his allies.

If you're serving as a frontliner then your party won't necessarily have that many other frontliner you will want to support with tricks. Not to mention at level 6 you're giving them all flat footed targets.

Quote:


Mesmerists damage is ONE attacks. Bards bonus is every attack including allies, is not precision so can both be multiplied by crits and is not negated by crit immune creatures.

Until level 8 the one attack disparity is irrelevant and the difference in crit damage ins negligible aside from crit fisher builds and I haven't heard a great deal about crit fisher bards I must say. Furthermore until level 8 the mesmerist bonus damage before crits leaves bard bonus damage in the dust.

Furthermore if the single hit issue is a real sticking point for you, which it shouldn't be because there second attack is missing more often than not anyway, you can take manifold stare, in which case the bonus damage gap broadens, in favor of the Mesmerist. bringing the build up to 4 feats admittedly.
But it does provide a scaling damage bonus which outstrips power attack on a two handed character so arguably worth it.

Quote:


That's the Dervish Feat line which is 3 feats not 5. It's outright superior to the Mesmerist ability in that you can use it at 5. Not something I would recommend.

so you're just gonna ignore that 3 feats for spring attack which you mentioned? good to know. So you've lost your maneuverability then.

Quote:


I was referring more to the Dervish Bard ability to make a full attack while moving.

Mesmerists don't gain much from full attacks unless they take manifold trick

in which case
Feint implant surprise attack
Vampiric touch, painful stare
Free attack at full bab against flat footed painful stare.

at level 7 you're looking at
6D6+3 + 3D6 +3 before the damage for weapons and abilities scores is even taken into account. And if you're building for this you took Deadly Stare.
so
7D6+3 + 4D6+3 before weapon and ability score damage.

assuming a +6 to damage on a D6 weapon you're looking at a grand total of

12D6 +12 with 3D6 temp hit poimts

that build needs two feats, a spell and an archetype to work.

seems like a fairly shiny turd, pretty sure a fighter would be happy with 54 damage and 10 temp hit points at level 7.

Quote:


If we are going for damage builds a sound striker / familiar bard can do 16d6 +12 somic damage as a ranged touch attack with his familiar and the post errata weird words at 8th level.

At 12 level that's 24d6 and 13 and a rod of quicken 36d6 using...

Ranged Mesmerists don't really come online till level 13 from what I know.

at which point they're doing
22D6+ 12 force and precision
with quickening I think it goes up to 32D6+12 force and precision.
So comparable but I'm not sure what your point is.

that build needs three feats, a spell and no archetype to work.
can take another feat to boost to 27D6+12 and 42D6+12
but it forces more saves so it might not be worth.

also the quicken is overkill in both circumstances anyway. As such is valueless.


Anyway we've clearly reached an em-pas you have your opinions I have mind, I think you're wrong and you think I'm wrong, judging by this conversation we're pretty obviously not going to convince eachother so in the interest of not spending pointless hours bickering I suggest we drop it.


Let's see what we can do if we concentrate on feinting a different way. No, this isn't PFS-legal; no, I don't care.

Human mesmerist (vexing daredevil)
Starting stats (20 pt buy): Str 8, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 17+2=19
Feats
1: TWF
1 (bonus); Martial Weapon Prof (starknife)
Human: Divine Fighting Technique (Desna's shooting star)
3: Ranged Feint
3 (bonus): Improved Feint
5: Quick Draw
6 (bonus): Greater Feint
7: Mesmerizing Feint
9: Improved TWF
10 (bonus): Greater Mesmerizing Feint

A bit of range will help you survive, especially once you can use greater feint to give the bonuses to others. Feint and move, attack and move, or throw a couple of starknives at once. I'd keep the Compel Alacrity trick in reserve to slip away if someone catches up to you.

Note that feinting is neither an attack roll nor a combat maneuver check and so is not affected by cover etc.


avr wrote:

Let's see what we can do if we concentrate on feinting a different way. No, this isn't PFS-legal; no, I don't care.

Human mesmerist (vexing daredevil)
Starting stats (20 pt buy): Str 8, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 17+2=19
Feats
1: TWF
1 (bonus); Martial Weapon Prof (starknife)
Human: Divine Fighting Technique (Desna's shooting star)
3: Ranged Feint
3 (bonus): Improved Feint
5: Quick Draw
6 (bonus): Greater Feint
7: Mesmerizing Feint
9: Improved TWF
10 (bonus): Greater Mesmerizing Feint

A bit of range will help you survive, especially once you can use greater feint to give the bonuses to others. Feint and move, attack and move, or throw a couple of starknives at once. I'd keep the Compel Alacrity trick in reserve to slip away if someone catches up to you.

Note that feinting is neither an attack roll nor a combat maneuver check and so is not affected by cover etc.

this is a pretty nifty idea actually, with returning on the knives and implanting piercing strike with your feint you're doing some pretty nifty stuff.

Dark Archive

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Honestly I think it would be simpler to build a 2 Paladin (Divine Hunter) / Mesmerist build and stay at range to shoot arrows or spell cast as desired (See below).

Race: Ifrit

Racial Traits:
- Magical Knack (pump CL back up for mesmerist levels)
- Deadeye bowman (weaker form of improved precise shot, must worship Erastil, which is okay for a paladin)

Stats Level 1:

STR: 14
DEX: 16 (14+2 from race) Get a +4 Belt eventually
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 5 (7-5 from race)
CHA: 18 (16 +2 from race) Get a +4 Headband

- Eventually put 2 points from levelling into CHA or DEX if you want to be a better spell caster/face/better saves or archer.

Racial Traits:

- Take the +4 initiative,
- Take +1 DC to spells that cause fascinate
- Take 1/day Enlarge/Reduce Person
- Note the race has has Darkvision

Feats:

1 Class: Precise Shot
1 Level: Point Blank
3 Level: Rapid Shot
5 Level: Deadly Aim
7 Level: Spell Focus (Enchantment) - Retrain to Many Shot at Level 8
9 Level: Painful Stare
11 Level: Cluster Shot or Spell Focus (Enchantment)or Demoralizing Stare (with Cruel modifier on the bow)

Skills:

- You'll have enough skill points to pump Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and UMD every level (1 to 2 to spare for picking up other skills).

Paladin Dip:

- Light/Medium armour proficiency
- Simple/Martial weapon proficiency
- +CHA to all saves (at level 2) which is important as mesmerist has bad saves. Dex will be high for reflex and wis is dumped so they'll all scale together fairly evenly and above the normal curve (save money on upgrading your cloak of resistance)
- 1/day smite (save for the boss, go through DR and cause extra damage)
- Lay on Hands (heal yourself as a swift action or others)
- Detect Evil (useful as always)

Mesmerist:

- Decent DCs on enchantment due to charisma and stare debuff (better for singular targets)
- Take Psychic inception to allow your stare and painful stare to work on undead/mindless.
- Take intense pain stare feat to add 1D6 precision damage.
- Bow feats will be very competitive for DPR as all archery builds are. Adding a ranged way to deal scaling precision damage really helps.
- Ranged keeps you at distance from baddies so you can drop your con, and focus on improving DEX/CHA only.
- You won't be the best spell caster compared to someone picking up Spell focus/greater spell focus, but you'll be able to shoot things with your weapon and still get off painful stares where others are stuck with a 50% chance of their spells hitting mindless/undead foes.
- Your STR is high enough to be a switch hitter as required.
- Pick up tricks to give to your allies and act as a "combat buffer" since you'll be in the back.
- Touch treatment to remove any issues with emotion/fear on yourself (and separate from your lay on hands so you can have both, but not on the same turn).
- High Dex/Ifrit racial trait will give you a pretty high initiative.
- Archers generally easily bypass DRs by selecting Adamantine/Cold Iron/Mithral durable arrows. But if you can't make the knowledge check, then your precision damage will help you overcome it on any single arrow that hits in a round.

Items of Interest (probably can't get all of these):

- Glove of Storing (pull out a metamagic rod with good action economy)
- Circlet of Persuasion (+3 on charisma based checks)
- Belt of Dexterity (+4 Dex)
- Headband of Charisma (+4 Charisma)
- Cloak of Resistance (+3 to all saves)
- Amulet of Natural Armour (+1 Natural AC)
- Hag's Shabble (+2 circumstance to diplomacy/intimidate checks)
- Tunic of Careful Casting (+2 to concentration checks)
- Eyes of the Eagle (+5 Competence Bonus to Perception)
- Feather Step Slippers (No adverse effects from difficult terrain)
- *Ring of the Sublime (Constant Remove Fear for a psychic caster!)
- Ring of Protection (+1 Deflection Bonus to AC)
- Metamagic Rod of Extend, Focus, Persistent
- Page of Spell Knowledge Level 1
- Page of Spell Knowledge Level 2
- Pearl of Power Level 1
- Pearl of Power Level 2
- Armour: +2 Mithral Agile Breastplate
- Shield: msw buckler (+1 AC on turns you don't shot your bow)
- Efficient Quiver
- Handy Haversack
- Bow: +1 Seeking or Cruel Greenwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str)
- 20 Cold Iron Durable Arrows
- Ioun Stone for +2 to CON, INT, WIS as desired.

Easy to buy on Prestige:
- 20 Adamantine Durable Arrows (lots of 12)
- 20 Mithral Durable Arrows (Lots of 10)
- Greenwood Composite Longbow for +2 STR (buy two and invest in 1)
- Ioun Stone +1 to Initiative
- Various wands of level 1 spells (memory lapse?)

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

One thing about pathfinder I've learned from browsing the boards: If you can't see how a class could be built into an interesting and effective character, the problem probably isn't the class.

Thanks for the neat ideas, everyone.


Here's a very interesting idea I saw on the boards for a caster mesmerist... taking NFL a 1 level dip into Crossblood sorcerer with Fey and Serpentine.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
The question is whether the marginal value of your weapon plus personal painful stare damage is more useful than casting a spell plus the lesser ally painful stare damage. I suggest that this comparison will rarely favor the mesmerist choosing to attack against tough opponents.

It is enough for clean up, in my opinion.

While not as great as a proper full attack from a martial, it is still a relatively large chunk of damage made in a single hit (about 52 for the stare alone) that can be done after a move. That could be enough to finish off an opponent that was weakened by another's full attack and would only need a couple more hits. But those hits would be someone else's full attack.

I am not denying that a large part of the mesmerist's time shouldn't be on spell casting or other debuffs. But being built so you have the option to melee gives you another tool. You are already fairy powerful spell caster with the massive debuffs you can dish out.

A basic reach caster seems useful here, since you don't need to choose as much between being a caster and having some melee capability. And you can even put combat reflexes way into the back burner, since you would need to build up in order to get more than one good hit a round.


lemeres wrote:
A basic reach caster seems useful here, since you don't need to choose as much between being a caster and having some melee capability.

I've long been intrigued by how the Mesmerist gets whip proficiency out of the gate, and that painful stare can mitigate the pitiful whip damage, but you don't threaten until level 7 which is less than great.


For my mesmerist I took the trait Two-World Magic for the acid splash cantrip.
Very useful.

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