I have afraid to use a Rouge


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Everyone dies. :)


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Gauss wrote:
Everyone dies. :)

Not everyone really lives!


You die when you are killed!

I have one suggestion for OP, and that is to play a Eldritch Scoundrel URogue. Yes, you do lose a lot of rogue abilities, but none of the URogue patches. You also get Rogue Talents AND Ninja Talents fuelled on spell slots. You have Magus spellcasting prep and slots, but you have the wizard/sorcerer spell list. This means scrolls and wands are really great tools.

You lose a lot of cool rogue things, however. But get more cool rogue things in exchange, and you become a great utility/damage dealer who can buff themselves up and go to town or carry all the utility for the party instead of the wizard. And Vanishing Trick (quickened vanish/quickened greater vanish) is on the table. Among other cool Ninja goodies.

I'm not sure if it's PFS legal though if that is a concern...


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

You die when you are killed!

I have one suggestion for OP, and that is to play a Eldritch Scoundrel URogue. Yes, you do lose a lot of rogue abilities, but none of the URogue patches. You also get Rogue Talents AND Ninja Talents fuelled on spell slots. You have Magus spellcasting prep and slots, but you have the wizard/sorcerer spell list. This means scrolls and wands are really great tools.

You lose a lot of cool rogue things, however. But get more cool rogue things in exchange, and you become a great utility/damage dealer who can buff themselves up and go to town or carry all the utility for the party instead of the wizard. And Vanishing Trick (quickened vanish/quickened greater vanish) is on the table. Among other cool Ninja goodies.

I'm not sure if it's PFS legal though if that is a concern...

It's not legal for URogue. Eldritch scoundrel is legal on the core rogue though in PFS. It seems like they are banning everything new that has access to ninja tricks.


Really? I didn't know it wasn't legal for URogue. What makes it illegal? Is this some kind of FAQ I can't seem to find?

Edit: OH, illegal in PFS! Oh, that makes way more sense. My bad!


Some thoughts after playing a TWF rogue for 10 levels (+4 multiclass):
TWF sucks. The hit to BAB for that second weapon hurts, and you have no way to fix that. While high Dex helps AC and reflex saves, the added feats for TWF mean that you are using up feats on a feat starved class.

If you go Strength rogue instead, your damage is more consistent, and you hit more often.

Unchained does have a fix for the hitting with the debilitating injury, but you must still hit with an attack first. With the TWF penalty, that is not easy.

----

To get the scout archetype to work, don't close. Instead use ranged. High Dex helps with the single attack you get, and your movement means you get sneak attack. You have to deal with shooting into melee, but two feats will fix that. [Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot] The feats are good to have anyway, so are not wasted.

/cevah


A note about being 'feat starved'. The Rogue isn't really feat starved. It has 4 bonus feats by level 10. (talents: Combat Trick = any combat feat, Finesse Rogue = weapon finesse, Weapon Training = weapon focus, and the advanced talent "Feat").

As a result I usually find that for a TWF rogue there are enough feats to build one without much of a problem. I rarely find a TWF Gang-Up rogue build having problems with attack bonuses compared to a strength build rogue.

1) TWF
2T) Finesse Rogue - Weapon Finesse
3) Double Slice
4T) Weapon Training - Weapon Focus
5) Combat Expertise
6T) Offensive Defense
7) Gang Up
8T) Combat Trick - Imp TWF
9) whatever you want, perhaps Peerless Maneuver to give another method for getting flank attacks.
10AT) Opportunist

With a pair of Agile weapons you get dex to damage so your damage is almost the same as the Str build rogue and you get more sneak attack damage.

While yes, TWF does come with an inherent -2penalty I haven't found it to be that critical an issue.
At level 10 the monsters should have an AC of about 24.
At level 10 you should have an attack bonus of about +7BAB +7Dex +2enhancement (+2 Agile) +1 Weapon Focus -2 TWF = +15.
Only need a 9+ to hit on two attacks and 14+ on two attacks. Not bad.

What about that STR build?
He will proabably have a +6 strength, due to giving Dex some love, so he will have a +7BAB, +6STR +3enhancement +1 weapon focus -2Power Attack = +15

Still needs a 9+ to hit on one attack and a 14+ on one attack.

So the damage must be the difference right?
Dex: 1d6+7dex+2enh = 12.5 x2 (at each attack bonus)
Str: 1d8+6str+3enh+4PA = 17.5 x1 (at each attack bonus)
(Assumes a 1handed weapon to allow for a shield to make up some of the lost dex bonus.)

Already seems to be in the favor of the Dex TWF build. Sneak Attack would put it into the Dex favor even more.

Calculations:

TWF 9+ = 0.6*12.5+0.6*12.5*1*.15 = 8.625*2 = 17.25
TWF 14+ = 0.35*12.5+0.35*12.5*1*.15 = 5.03125*2 = 10.0625
TWF Total DPR: 27.3125

Single 9+ = 0.6*17.5+0.6*17.5*1*.15 = 12.075
Single 14+ = 0.35*17.5+0.35*17.5*1*.15 = 7.04375
Single Total DPR: 19.11875

Sneak Attack TWF 9+ = 0.6*(12.5+17.5)+0.6*12.5*1*.15 = 19.125*2 = 38.25
Sneak Attack TWF 14+ = 0.35*(12.5+17.5)+0.35*12.5*1*.15 = 9.40625*2 = 18.8125
Total Sneak Attack TWF = 57.0625

Sneak Attack Single 9+ = 0.6*(17.5+17.5)+0.6*17.5*1*.15 = 22.575
Sneak Attack Single 14+ = 0.35*(17.5+17.5)+0.35*17.5*1*.15 = 13.16875
Total Sneak Attack Single = 35.74375

Ultimately, I think the TWF Dex build winds up with more overall damage more often and the attack penalty is balanced out by a STR build using Power Attack and having to spend some of the point buy from Strength on Dex while Dex doesn't have to spend it on strength.

It gets even worse for the single weapon Rogue when sneak attack is factored into it.


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So you used a Mauve or a Bleu instead?


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Gauss wrote:
A note about being 'feat starved'. The Rogue isn't really feat starved. It has 4 bonus feats by level 10. (talents: Combat Trick = any combat feat, Finesse Rogue = weapon finesse, Weapon Training = weapon focus, and the advanced talent "Feat").

Yes, some feats are available as tricks, but you loose out on other tricks by using them. Opportunity cost. Also compare to a fighter build. They have less feats. Comparing a dex rogue to a str rogue is not a valid comparison of feat starvation.

Gauss wrote:
With a pair of Agile weapons you get dex to damage so your damage is almost the same as the Str build rogue and you get more sneak attack damage.

Dex rogue w/2 agile +2 weapons: 36K

Str rogue w/1 +4 weapon & cracked pale green prism ioun stone: 32K + 4K

Gauss wrote:

While yes, TWF does come with an inherent -2penalty I haven't found it to be that critical an issue.

At level 10 the monsters should have an AC of about 24.
At level 10 you should have an attack bonus of about +7BAB +7Dex +2enhancement (+2 Agile) +1 Weapon Focus -2 TWF = +15.
Only need a 9+ to hit on two attacks and 14+ on two attacks. Not bad.

What about that STR build?
He will proabably have a +6 strength, due to giving Dex some love, so he will have a +7BAB, +6STR +3enhancement +1 weapon focus -2Power Attack = +15

Still needs a 9+ to hit on one attack and a 14+ on one attack.

I think it would be [THF]:

+7BAB, +6STR +4enhancement +1 weapon focus +1stone -2Power Attack = +17
Need an 7+ to hit on one attack and a 12+ on one attack.

Gauss wrote:

So the damage must be the difference right?

Dex: 1d6+7dex+2enh = 12.5 x2 (at each attack bonus)
Str: 1d8+6str+3enh+4PA = 17.5 x1 (at each attack bonus)
(Assumes a 1handed weapon to allow for a shield to make up some of the lost dex bonus.)

Dex: 1d6+7dex+2enh = 12.5 x2 (at each attack bonus)

Str: 1d8+6str*1.5+4enh+4PA*1.5 = 22.5 x1 (at each attack bonus)
(Assumes a two handed weapon and better armor with a lower dex limit to make up some of the lost dex bonus.)

Gauss wrote:

Already seems to be in the favor of the Dex TWF build. Sneak Attack would put it into the Dex favor even more.

** spoiler omitted **

Ultimately, I think the TWF Dex build winds up with more overall damage more often and the attack penalty is balanced out by a STR build using Power Attack and having to spend some of the point buy from Strength on Dex while Dex doesn't have to spend it on strength.

It gets even worse for the single weapon Rogue when sneak attack is factored into it.

I calculated a higher secondary TWF w/SA. Each hit = 11.15625, not 9.40625.

With my assumptions, I get 28.03125 Str vs. 27.3125 Dex w/o SA, and 48.15625 vs 60.5625 w/SA.

So it does seem that TWF is better. When full attacking and using TWF & Improved TWF vs PA only.

Without I-TWF: 22.28125 (49.40625)
Much less difference. No SA is ~6 less than str, and SA is ~1 more than str. How often does SA happen?

However, this does not account for the likelihood of getting a full attack. If you only get a standard, it becomes THF 17.0625 (29.3125) vs. TWF 10.0625 (22.3125). This occurs far more often. The free feat the Str rogue can be used to up the damage even more via vital strike, or cleave, or some other things.

My experience is that full attacks are not common. Especially if you have rocket tag going.

/cevah


My experience is the direct opposite, full attacks are quite common. Then again, in my experience combats also last longer than 3 rounds.

As for the price difference and THF, your AC is going to be significantly worse, you are going to need to balance that out with...money.

Finally, as to the original point, being feat starved, using some talents on feats doesn't negate my point that they are not really feat starved. Especially when you consider that most talents aren't worth the paper they are printed on. I see no problem with using the talents in lieu of feats (via the feat based talents previously mentioned).

Sure, a level 10 fighter has 2 more potential feats but I really don't consider that 'feat starved'.

Anyhow, different points of view and all.


Gauss wrote:
As for the price difference and THF, your AC is going to be significantly worse, you are going to need to balance that out with...money.

Best Light:

Silken ceremonial armor (30gp): AC +1, no Max Dex --> total 1+your dex
Padded (5gp): AC +1, Max Dex +8 --> total +9
Studded Leather (25gp): AC +3, Max Dex +5 --> total +8

Best Medium:
Breastplate (200gp): AC +6, Max Dex +3 --> total +9

Best Heavy:
Full Plate (1,500gp): AC +9, Max Dex +1 --> total +10

Your TWF rogue wants light armor, and will probably get Studded Leather. Their AC is +8 armor and no shield.

Your THF rogue wants heavier armor and probably gets breastplate. Their AC is +9 armor. They spent 175 gp more on armor, after saving 300+ on the second weapon's masterwork cost.

Armor+Weapon(s) are cheaper for the THF than the TWF, and they cap out 1 higher.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:
Gauss wrote:
A note about being 'feat starved'. The Rogue isn't really feat starved. It has 4 bonus feats by level 10. (talents: Combat Trick = any combat feat, Finesse Rogue = weapon finesse, Weapon Training = weapon focus, and the advanced talent "Feat").
Yes, some feats are available as tricks, but you loose out on other tricks by using them. Opportunity cost. Also compare to a fighter build. They have less feats. Comparing a dex rogue to a str rogue is not a valid comparison of feat starvation.

Especially when comparing a fully statted out and feated up dex rogue to a str rogue that only has two feats accounted for.

Like you said, opportunity costs matter. That Str rogue has three more feats and five more rogue talents to account for (or 4 and 4, with Combat Trick). That could certainly open up some more DPR boosts. Or it could go to non-combat areas, or defensive bonuses like save-boosting feats (rather useful on a class with bad will and fort saves).


Cevah wrote:
Gauss wrote:
As for the price difference and THF, your AC is going to be significantly worse, you are going to need to balance that out with...money.

Best Light:

Silken ceremonial armor (30gp): AC +1, no Max Dex --> total 1+your dex
Padded (5gp): AC +1, Max Dex +8 --> total +9
Studded Leather (25gp): AC +3, Max Dex +5 --> total +8

Best Medium:
Breastplate (200gp): AC +6, Max Dex +3 --> total +9

Best Heavy:
Full Plate (1,500gp): AC +9, Max Dex +1 --> total +10

Your TWF rogue wants light armor, and will probably get Studded Leather. Their AC is +8 armor and no shield.

Your THF rogue wants heavier armor and probably gets breastplate. Their AC is +9 armor. They spent 175 gp more on armor, after saving 300+ on the second weapon's masterwork cost.

Armor+Weapon(s) are cheaper for the THF than the TWF, and they cap out 1 higher.

/cevah

Except you aren't factoring in Mithral. Mithral Chain Shirt = +4AC and +6 max dex.

It is doubtful that the Str build will be using all of the +3 max dex from Breastplate, let alone the +5 from Mithral Breastplate (which he needs for skills and speed). Thus, it winds up favoring the Dex build again on AC.

As for heavy armor, I seriously doubt even a STR build Rogue would spend a feat on Heavy Armor as it would remove half of his skill based abilities and limit his speed.

So...what does the STR version need to spend on dex to even flesh out his +3 max dex let alone the +5 max dex? Probably +4 belt of dexterity at least and that costs (pricing for a second ability score) 24k +3k (price difference of Mithral) = 27,000gp just to make up for the armor difference and *maybe* balance it out.

That sure did cost a lot compared to the 18k that the TWF used on his second weapon.

So, again, we are back at the point where the STR build does indeed have to spend money to balance out his lack of Dex if he wants the same AC as the DEX build.

Summary: Based on the 'equal AC' premise, the STR build is buying ability scores for both Str and for Dex while the DEX build is buying only Dex. That costs a tremendous amount of gold right there.

Silver Crusade

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I generally don't use rouge either... it gets in my fur and takes ages to get out.


it really depends on the type of rogue being used if normal rogue i would say str rogue if unchained i would say dex


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm a big fan of the rogue class and have played several in pathfinder.

Far more important than any choice in your build is what classes the rest of the party are playing. If the rest of the party includes someone you can rely on to help you flank - i.e. having one or two others who also always want to get into melee, life becomes massively easier - then you don't need a ton of feats to try to deploy your sneak damage solo.


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Chubbs McGee wrote:
I generally don't use rouge either... it gets in my fur and takes ages to get out.

Pump your stealth skill and you can apply some concealer.


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Gauss wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Gauss wrote:
As for the price difference and THF, your AC is going to be significantly worse, you are going to need to balance that out with...money.
<stuff>

Except you aren't factoring in Mithral. Mithral Chain Shirt = +4AC and +6 max dex.

It is doubtful that the Str build will be using all of the +3 max dex from Breastplate, let alone the +5 from Mithral Breastplate (which he needs for skills and speed). Thus, it winds up favoring the Dex build again on AC.

As for heavy armor, I seriously doubt even a STR build Rogue would spend a feat on Heavy Armor as it would remove half of his skill based abilities and limit his speed.

So...what does the STR version need to spend on dex to even flesh out his +3 max dex let alone the +5 max dex? Probably +4 belt of dexterity at least and that costs (pricing for a second ability score) 24k +3k (price difference of Mithral) = 27,000gp just to make up for the armor difference and *maybe* balance it out.

That sure did cost a lot compared to the 18k that the TWF used on his second weapon.

So, again, we are back at the point where the STR build does indeed have to spend money to balance out his lack of Dex if he wants the same AC as the DEX build.

Summary: Based on the 'equal AC' premise, the STR build is buying ability scores for both Str and for Dex while the DEX build is buying only Dex. That costs a tremendous amount of gold right there.

OK. Lets take a more scientific approach. Using kjb200's Update to Rogue Eidolon's Guide to the Rogue, I chose 20 Point Buy (average rolled, or PFS) for the Dex and Str builds. I added the recommended best armor and best weapons, and I also added the ioun stone mentioned earlier.

Stats:
Dex Rogue:
Str 10 (0) Dex 19 (13) Con 16 (10) Int 8 (-2) Wis 13 (3) Cha 7 (-4)
level 4 increase in Dex, 8 might go to Wis, then Dex all the way
Celestial Armor +3 (22400) = AC 24 [Can get +3 more with a +6 Dex item]
Agile Shortsword +2 (18310) 1d6, 19x2
Agile Shortsword +2 (18310) 1d6, 19x2
Feat: TWF, ITWF

Strength Rogue:
Str 19 (13) Dex 13 (3) Con 15 (7) Int 8 (-2) Wis 13 (3) Cha 7 (-4)
level 4 increase in Con, then Dex all the way
Mithral Full Plate +3 (19500) = AC 24 [Can get +1 more with a +2 Dex item]
Ioun Stone (4000)
Use Greatsword +4 (32350) 2d6, 20x3 or Greataxe +4 (32320) 1d12, 19d2
Feat: PA, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor

Neither uses the full dex allowed by their armor. They have the same AC for about the same cash. [Str saves 2900]
Two Agile +2 Short Swords vs. Ioun Stone and Greatsword also. [Str saves 270]
The Str Rogue needs 1 more feat. If dipping a level in fighter, that removes the need for the armor feats and instead grants a bonus feat, giving a net gain of two feats. You loose the Master Strike capstone, but how many games go to 20th level?

Dex rogue needs 10+ to hit AC 24
Str rogue needs 8+ to hit AC 24

DPR Calcs:
Dex Rogue:
Primary Attack: 7 (BAB) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Enh) = 14
Need 10 to hit AC 24
Regular Damage Single Attack w/o SA = 6.825
Regular Damage Single Attack w/SA = 16.45
Full Attack w/TWF & ITWF, w/o SA = (5.775 + 3.15)*2 = 17.85
Full Attack w/TWF & ITWF, w/SA = (13.65 + 6.65)*2 = 40.6

Strength Rogue:
Primary Attack: 7 (BAB) + 4 (Str) + 4 (Enh) + 1 (Stone) = 16
Need 8 to hit AC 24
Using the Greatsword:
Regular PA Damage Single Attack w/o SA = 14.95
Regular PA Damage Single Attack w/SA = 24.575
Full Attack w/PA, w/o SA = 24.15
Full Attack w/PA, w/SA = 39.025
Using the Greataxe:
Regular PA Damage Single Attack w/o SA = 14.625
Regular PA Damage Single Attack w/SA = 24.25
Full Attack w/PA, w/o SA = 23.625
Full Attack w/PA, w/SA = 38.5

Comparing the two:
Dex vs. Str Rogue single attack w/o SA: Favor Str by 8.125
Dex vs. Str Rogue single attack w/SA: Favor Str by 8.125
Dex vs. Str Rogue full attack w/o SA: Favor Str by 6.3
Dex vs. Str Rogue full attack w/SA: Favor Str by -1.575

Using a Greataxe makes the numbers: 7.8, 7.8, 5.775, -2.1

Thus the Dex Rogue only leads on full attacks with sneak attack. And not by much. He also spent 3170 gp more than the Str Rogue.

DPS w/Flanking:
Dex Rogue:
Primary Attack: 7 (BAB) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Enh) + 2 (Flanking) = 16
Need 8 to hit AC 24
Regular Damage Single Attack w/o SA = 7.875
Regular Damage Single Attack w/SA = 19.25
Full Attack w/TWF & ITWF, w/o SA = (6.825 + 4.2)*2 = 22.05
Full Attack w/TWF & ITWF, w/SA = (16.45 + 9.45)*2 = 51.8

Strength Rogue:
Primary Attack: 7 (BAB) + 4 (Str) + 4 (Enh) + 1 (Stone) + 2 (Flanking) = 18
Need 6 to hit AC 24
Using the Greatsword:
Regular PA Damage Single Attack w/o SA = 17.25
Regular PA Damage Single Attack w/SA = 28.625
Full Attack w/PA, w/o SA = 28.75
Full Attack w/PA, w/SA = 47.125
Using the Greataxe:
Regular PA Damage Single Attack w/o SA = 16.875
Regular PA Damage Single Attack w/SA = 28.25
Full Attack w/PA, w/o SA = 28.125
Full Attack w/PA, w/SA = 46.5

Comparing the two:
Dex vs. Str Rogue single attack w/o SA: Favor Str by 9.375
Dex vs. Str Rogue single attack w/SA: Favor Str by 9.375
Dex vs. Str Rogue full attack w/o SA: Favor Str by 6.7
Dex vs. Str Rogue full attack w/SA: Favor Str by -4.675

Using a Greataxe makes the numbers: 9, 9, 6.075, -5.3

Given the above, it looks like they are about equal.

/cevah


Couple things:

First, you are missing out on spending on most other equipment. If you are going to do this full comparison we should have the equipment be more complete.

Second, Celestial Armor is a bad choice at level 10 because you can get the same AC or more for less money.

My version of the equipment @level 10:

For consistency I am using your point buy.

Dex Rogue (dex: 19+1level+4enhancement = 22, trait = armor expert)
(2) +1 Agile S. Sword = 8310x2 = 16620gp
Belt of +4 Dexterity = 16000gp (dex: 19+1level+4enhancement = 24)
+2 Mithral Breastplate = 8200gp (AC: 10+ 8armor +5dex +1deflection +1natural Armor +1insight = 26)
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone = 5000gp
+1 Ring of Protection = 2000gp
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor = 2000gp
+3 Cloak of Resistance = 9000gp
Total spent: 58820gp, 3180gp under budget.
AC = 25, Fort = 9, Reflex 17, Will 8

Str Rogue (dex: 13+1level, trait = Indomitable Faith (+1 will saves to balance diminished will saves using your point buy/level up setup) )
+3 Greatsword/Greataxe = 18320-18350gp
Belt of +2 Strength = 4000gp (21 strength)
Cracked Pale Green Prism ioun stone = 4000gp
+2 Mithral Full Plate = 14200 (AC: 10+ 11armor +2dex +1deflection +1natural armor +1insight = 26)
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone = 5000gp
+1 Ring of Protection = 2000gp
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor = 2000gp
+3 Cloak of Resistance = 9000gp
Total spent: 58520gp, 3450-3480gp under budget
AC = 25, Fort 9, Reflex 12, Will 8

Note: I reduced the weapon enhancement to buff the Dex or Strength and AC on both versions of Rogue. Ie: "cheapest buff first" school of thought.

So, while the AC is the same between the two, the attack and damage on the Dex Rogue has improved by +1 and the Reflex saves are better on the Dex Rogue.

Ultimately, we could continue debating this but my original point remains, I don't find the TWF rogue to be feat starved to the point of it being an nonviable option.
Of course, the Unchained Rogue did even more to make this a viable option but that would be another discussion.


My equipment was based on the guide's recommendation. Is Celestial Armor too expensive for 10th level? I don't know. Likewise, I would be very likely to dip a level of fighter, which can gain me some feats for more attack or damage.

At this point, I think it is a wash as to which is better, making the campaign's style more important. For me that was few full attacks, and sneak attack without flanking was rare. That favors the strength build. Your campaign favored more full attacks, which favors the dexterity build.

My experience is actually with the ninja so the talent/trick difference played into feat choices as well.

You have shown the TWF build to be viable in the campaigns you have experienced. I provided a caution on TWF based on the campaigns I have experienced. It is up to the OP to decide. The more information the OP gets, the better.

/cevah


Sounds good. :)

Regarding flanking, Gang Up really helps that but it requires help from your party members. Alternately, acrobatics can work well.


I have a base 20 for Acrobatics, (29 for jumping), but almost never needed it for positioning. There was always someone I could reach without provoking. With the 10th level ninja jumping, I had a minimum jump of 60', if I had ki. Movement was not an issue. :-)

/cevah


That is not the only reason for acrobatics. You can move around and through the enemy in order to get flanks.

It is quite easy to get a flank if your acrobatics is high enough.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thing to understand is that the unchained rogue isn't a primary damage dealer. He's a debuffer. You really should be going for builds like this one if you want to remain pertinent in combat:

The only rogue you will ever need.

Makes most martials wet themselves.

Sovereign Court

Gauss wrote:

That is not the only reason for acrobatics. You can move around and through the enemy in order to get flanks.

It is quite easy to get a flank if your acrobatics is high enough.

True. The main issue is that it can drop you to one attack.

That's why rogues love melee bards as flanking buddies. The bard's damage is mediocre, so losing his iterative(s) isn't a huge loss, and HE can do the acrobatics for flanks while they get their full attacks. (Not to mention that the bard fixes any rogue accuracy issues.)

Sovereign Court

Rub-Eta wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
or a magic item (muleback cords) to increase your effective strength for carrying capacity.
It's not worth to dump Str to miss out on Cloak of Resistance.

burdenless armor property is +4K

Heavyload Belt

They appear to stack... x3 x1.5 = x4.5


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Thing to understand is that the unchained rogue isn't a primary damage dealer. He's a debuffer. You really should be going for builds like this one if you want to remain pertinent in combat:

The only rogue you will ever need.

Makes most martials wet themselves.

Sorry about that. Timed out before I could edit in a working link.

Sovereign Court

STR-based unchained rogue? why? did your GM allow you to swap finesse training for something else?

Sovereign Court

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
STR-based unchained rogue? why? did your GM allow you to swap finesse training for something else?

I was assuming that they meant core rogue. (Which no one should EVER play anymore.)


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
STR-based unchained rogue? why? did your GM allow you to swap finesse training for something else?
I was assuming that they meant core rogue. (Which no one should EVER play anymore.)

some gms don't allow unchained rogue as they veiw them as broken..... yet they still allow casters

Sovereign Court

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Lady-J wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
STR-based unchained rogue? why? did your GM allow you to swap finesse training for something else?
I was assuming that they meant core rogue. (Which no one should EVER play anymore.)
some gms don't allow unchained rogue as they veiw them as broken..... yet they still allow casters

Lol - unchained rogue is solidly in the top half... of martials.

It's only broken in comparison to core rogues - which they replace.

Sovereign Court

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
STR-based unchained rogue? why? did your GM allow you to swap finesse training for something else?
I was assuming that they meant core rogue. (Which no one should EVER play anymore.)

...no, he's actually talking about debilitating injury in there.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
STR-based unchained rogue? why? did your GM allow you to swap finesse training for something else?

Missed the whole point of the build did ya? It being strength-based was just personal preference (I mean, really, does the guy look at all dextrous to you?) and to better take advantage of feats like Intimidating Prowess. Sadly, Finesse Training did go to waste in this instance (but might still come in handy in corner cases, such as when suffering from a lot of strength damage). Nevertheless, this guy charges onto the battlefield like Negasonic Teenage Warhead, sending enemies flying every which way.

Take a closer look at the character itself. I'll walk you guys through it.

The whole point of the character is to give the foe's stats a serious pummeling and to get them running away crying for mommy. A single sneak attack can literally take multiple enemies out of the fight for several rounds!

First, let's talk debuffs:


  • Brutal Beating - Make target sickened; a great backup debuff if the target is immune to bleed damage (since the sickness from flensing strike requires the target to be taking bleed damage)
  • Debilitating Injury - Lower target's AC or attack rolls (-3 to -5), or speed for a round; rogue gets double benefit
  • Flensing Strike - Makes target sickened and lowers natural armor bonus by 1 for each sneak attack die dealt; AC penalties stack for multiple hits

With the scout archetype, you can charge an enemy, strike them for sneak attack damage, potentially lowering their AC by as much as 12 points!

Now, to get the enemy retreating:


  • Disheartening Display - Increases fear affect from dazzling display by one step (see below)
  • Frightening - Extend demoralize duration by 1 round; if 4+ rounds, make frightened instead
  • Rogue's Edge: Intimidate - Beat intimidate DC by 10 to frighten foes
  • Violent Display - Activate dazzling display as an immediate action after a sneak attack

Once you've landed your opening sneak attack you can follow up with dazzling display as an immediate action. With a successful intimidate check, the target becomes frightened or panicked for several rounds, along with all other enemies within 30 feet who witness your carnage. With a single swipe of his cleaver, my pirate regularly clears whole decks of enemy ships!

And as I've said in the linked thread, this isn't even fully optimized. I made some concessions for style points. As you noted, you may well do better by not being a Strength-based rogue, and using a different slashing weapon, and not picking a race that penalizes Charisma. If you can manage to find a way to make the build come together just as well, with a little less redundancy, then all the better!

The only thing a rogue built like this really has to worry about are enemies who are immune to sneak attacks and both the sickened condition and various fear conditions. Against those targets, you're still every bit as badass as every other rogue out there. If your target is immune to sneak attack, you can still debuff with dazzling display. If they're immune to fear, you can still sneak attack and debuff with debilitating injury, flensing strike, and the sickened condition. If they're immune to the sickened condition, do you really care?

Hope that helps. :D

Sovereign Court

I didn't even look at the character (link didn't work). I was just wondering if you got something else instead of finesse training, which is pretty useless if you go STR build... as you pointed out, Finesse Training is wasted. I wish they'd come up with an archetype to swap out Finesse Training for something STR-related... ;)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The link should work now.

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