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So all the discussion on the forums seems to agree that if you're going to build a PC using the medium class from Occult Adventures, you pretty much have to focus on the champion spirit. That's really the only spirit that's useful for a normal adventuring day. And it's mostly strength based two handed weapon builds, since mediums don't get any bonus feats to help them pull off more feat intensive combat styles.
So has anyone come up with any sort of viable adventuring medium that doesn't focus mostly on the champion spirit? Or even if they do focus on that spirit, can you pull off any combat style effectively other than a big, two handed weapon and Power Attack?
I guess archery could work with the champion spirit, but it's slow going to get the many feats necessary to be good at it. If you're not human, you won't even get Precise Shot until level 3. I suppose the champion spirit bonus and seance bonus could make Deadly Aim somewhat unnecessary, which is good since a 3/4 BAB class can't really afford the penalty to hit. So this will always be a sub-par archer compared to classes with bonus feats to be great at it (ranger, fighter, zen archer), but I guess you could be passable.
Any other suggestions for medium builds that don't just try to impersonate a barbarian with a great sword?
You could try Spirit Dancer or Rivethun Channeler for the trick of being able to change spirits after resting for a minute rather than overnight. The trick to these archetypes is that you have a limited number of rounds of spirit dance per day, so you need to allocate feats and skill ranks to things that you can do without activating that class feature.
If you don't go for one of those archetypes, the Trickster legend as a skill monkey becomes move viable as its abilities tend to be time consuming.
My biggest issue is trying to justify using a different spirit over being a different class.
Why be the cleric medium instead of an actual cleric?
Why be the wizard medium instead of an actual medium?
Now the rogue medium has a nice lv6 ability of their first attack is always a "sneak attack".
here is an archer medium build.
But the reason THW is so nice is because at lv6 you get another full bab attack off, no restrictions on what type and no action used. Which is best utilized with a big hitting weapon.
I played a TWF dex-based dagger wielding medium who was still the champion 90% of the time and feats were pretty tight. The champion channeling medium is a pretty good combatant though.
The real problem with the class is that there's really only two of the spirits that are viable in a fight (6 level casters don't have enough spells to carry them through a day), so most of the spirits get relegated to off-days if I need to forge a letter or cast a spell.
In the off chance you actually get to level 20 though, you do get among the most potent capstones out there because of the other spirits.
Storyteller makes for a good caster. You get bardic performance to fill in the gaps in casting.
My biggest issue is trying to justify using a different spirit over being a different class.
Why be the cleric medium instead of an actual cleric?
Why be the wizard medium instead of an actual medium?Now the rogue medium has a nice lv6 ability of their first attack is always a "sneak attack".
here is an archer medium build.
But the reason THW is so nice is because at lv6 you get another full bab attack off, no restrictions on what type and no action used. Which is best utilized with a big hitting weapon.
Because the cleric can't choose over a dozen different domains and spells that they can get to aid themselves. Mind you the archetype grants that for any spirit but the spells only work early on for the two caster spirits.
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You can do a pretty solid build around the Storyteller Archetype and Archmage or Hierophant (or alternating between the two on a per day basis). It plays more like a casting-focused Bard rather than a traditional Medium build, but has the ability to switch out which spells it has on a per day basis, which is solid. Plus stuff like Haste as a 2nd level spell, which is a nice side-benefit.
Because the cleric can't choose over a dozen different domains and spells that they can get to aid themselves. Mind you the archetype grants that for any spirit but the spells only work early on for the two caster spirits.My biggest issue is trying to justify using a different spirit over being a different class.
Why be the cleric medium instead of an actual cleric?
Why be the wizard medium instead of an actual medium?Now the rogue medium has a nice lv6 ability of their first attack is always a "sneak attack".
here is an archer medium build.
But the reason THW is so nice is because at lv6 you get another full bab attack off, no restrictions on what type and no action used. Which is best utilized with a big hitting weapon.
I have no idea what you just tried to say.
You can do a pretty solid build around the Storyteller Archetype and Archmage or Hierophant (or alternating between the two on a per day basis). It plays more like a casting-focused Bard rather than a traditional Medium build, but has the ability to switch out which spells it has on a per day basis, which is solid. Plus stuff like Haste as a 2nd level spell, which is a nice side-benefit.
Haste is a lv2, but only once you've learned it as a medium, so not till lv7. So you get it the same time other 6th levels are gaining haste. So it's not as awesome because you're not gaining early access to it.
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You can do a pretty solid build around the Storyteller Archetype and Archmage or Hierophant (or alternating between the two on a per day basis). It plays more like a casting-focused Bard rather than a traditional Medium build, but has the ability to switch out which spells it has on a per day basis, which is solid. Plus stuff like Haste as a 2nd level spell, which is a nice side-benefit.Haste is a lv2, but only once you've learned it as a medium, so not till lv7. So you get it the same time other 6th levels are gaining haste. So it's not as awesome because you're not gaining early access to it.
Sure, but once you get it at 7th you're spending 2nd level slots on it, not 3rd. Which is a pretty big side benefit.
Sure, but once you get it at 7th you're spending 2nd level slots on it, not 3rd. Which is a pretty big side benefit.You can do a pretty solid build around the Storyteller Archetype and Archmage or Hierophant (or alternating between the two on a per day basis). It plays more like a casting-focused Bard rather than a traditional Medium build, but has the ability to switch out which spells it has on a per day basis, which is solid. Plus stuff like Haste as a 2nd level spell, which is a nice side-benefit.Haste is a lv2, but only once you've learned it as a medium, so not till lv7. So you get it the same time other 6th levels are gaining haste. So it's not as awesome because you're not gaining early access to it.
It's not that big of a benefit compared to a full-caster. how many lv2 slots you have at lv7 isn't really a big deal to how many a full caster has of 3rd level for haste at lv7. A real sorcerer or wizard would be a better fit than this imitation wizard. Other 6th level casters usually have class features to help them feel useful in combat. This class doesn't. The only combat advantage over a real wizard is 3/4 bab instead of 1/2 bab. Even the caster rogue has more than that.
Well, you also have Inspire Courage. That's a pretty big deal.
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It's not that big of a benefit compared to a full-caster. how many lv2 slots you have at lv7 isn't really a big deal to how many a full caster has of 3rd level for haste at lv7. A real sorcerer or wizard would be a better fit than this imitation wizard. Other 6th level casters usually have class features to help them feel useful in combat. This class doesn't. The only combat advantage over a real wizard is 3/4 bab instead of 1/2 bab. Even the caster rogue has more than that.
It's not a full caster replacement, though. It's a Bard replacement, with Bardic Performance as a Bard of its level. Haste as a 2nd level spell is a pretty nice option for a character like that.
Or did you not check the Storyteller Archetype? Because that's the heart of the build I was suggesting.
Well, you also have Inspire Courage. That's a pretty big deal.
Yeah, this.
sorry, I forgot that it was tied to the bard archetype.
Still not convinced it's that great. Bards and mediums have heroism as lv2 spell, which is a great long term buff. Having your lv2 house heroism and haste still doesn't seem like much of a benefit to having lv2 be heroism and lv3 be haste.
So yes, it is technically better, but not something I feel is better enough to tout it as a benefit.
A Storyteller archetype medium can take feat Discordant Voice??
I have no idea what you just tried to say.Because the cleric can't choose over a dozen different domains and spells that they can get to aid themselves. Mind you the archetype grants that for any spirit but the spells only work early on for the two caster spirits.My biggest issue is trying to justify using a different spirit over being a different class.
Why be the cleric medium instead of an actual cleric?
Why be the wizard medium instead of an actual medium?Now the rogue medium has a nice lv6 ability of their first attack is always a "sneak attack".
here is an archer medium build.
But the reason THW is so nice is because at lv6 you get another full bab attack off, no restrictions on what type and no action used. Which is best utilized with a big hitting weapon.
To make a long story short they are more versatile than a cleric or even a wizard as you gain access to spells that arent necessarily on their list. Mind you that's why you would pick the two spellcaster spirits over the martial one early on.
A medium has only cleric or wizard spells until lv4. Then it does gain a few lv1 spells that might not be on the list. But between archetypes, domains, sorcerer bloodlines, other actual 6th level caster, there's no reason for those spirits for a normal medium.
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The real problem with the class is that there's really only two of the spirits that are viable in a fightWhat's the second?
The trickster is not hopeless, assuming you haven't invested feats that only work with weapons you wouldn't have proficiency in unless you're the champion. You get a sneak attack that always works the first time, and you can steal people's buffs at 11th level. It's not ideal, but if you happen to be channeling the trickster because you're sneaking into a fancy party and you need a really good disguise and you want to be up-to-date on knowledge: nobility, you're not hopeless if a fight breaks out.
yeah, the trickerster has reasons it could be played over the champion.
The guardian is good if you want to live but not as good for a full character because damage is low.
Marshal makes for an interesting support character
But the cleric and wizard one I struggle to find a reason to play them instead of an actual 9th level caster or even other 6th level casters.
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Those Occult classes really like feinting builds. *eyes mesmerist*
A Halfling Medium could channel Champion levels 1-6, then switch to Trickster to get sneaks and mad skillz. The advantages with skills will be felt most strongly at higher levels anyway. Those DCs get up there. Pick appropriate knowledges based on the briefing, or fill a missing Disable Device or Survival skill slot.
If you want to be self-sufficient, get Feint feats. Or team up with a greater feinting rogue.
Int 13+, high Dex, decent charisma
River-rat trait
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Combat Expertise
5. Weapon Focus
7. Improved Feint
9. Greater Feint
11. Slashing Grace
But the cleric and wizard one I struggle to find a reason to play them instead of an actual 9th level caster or even other 6th level casters.
The only time I ever used those were on days when it was "okay, we're going to stay in town today to do stuff, and having access to a specific spell on either the cleric or the wizard list would be really handy." But I never channeled them when I was expecting to get into a fight.
That's goes along with what I'm saying. Those spirits aren't worth having as a main spirit focus. This OP is asking if there are spirits other than champion that are able to be a main spirit.
I am curious if you think that the Uda Wendo might make the caster spirits worth it.
So has anyone come up with any sort of viable adventuring medium that doesn't focus mostly on the champion spirit? Or even if they do focus on that spirit, can you pull off any combat style effectively other than a big, two handed weapon and Power Attack?
[...]
Any other suggestions for medium builds that don't just try to impersonate a barbarian with a great sword?
I've played these differents Medium and had a ton fun:
A catfolk Uda Wendo Medium mainly focused on Trickster spirits. The main goal was to have a lot of skills ranks, coupled with the trickster spirit bonus that applies to ALL skill checks it makes for a great SkillMonkey. I've also taken the Spirit Ridden feat, meaning that every day I could choose 3 different skills to be very effective (craft, use magic device, knowledge were frequent choices). Have taken weapon finesse and some Channel Spirit (archmage, hierophant) to cast some spells when needed or downtime. Finally at 17th using greater polymorph to charge-pounce-rake-grab while dealing 6d6 extra precision damage was amazing. Abeast literally both incombat and out of combat. Also Uda Wendo plus archamage/hierophant = winA centaur relic channeler focused mainly on guardian spirits. With a fullplate adamantine armor, a mithral heavy shield and a impact lance, then took the Spirited Charge feat and the Combat stamina feat then finally barroom brawler and that Natural Jouster, made this a beast. Combat stamina give more damage for spirited charge and makes barroom brawler usable as a swift action (which I used to pick occasional other feats to combine with stamina points, like Improved disarm or Improved Trip, which also thanks to Combat Stamina feat did ever required a high intelligence score). Also, while the guardian is not great on precision and damage, the Spirited Charge feat makes up for that. Even if the GM would have disabled taking the centaur race, it would have worked by changing into another race and taking the Animal Ally feat to get a Charger mount
A human kami medium with a Sage Shikigami, a warrior combatant (GM allowed only NPC classes to be taken as cohorts with Leadership feat) and a Wolf animal companion, gifted by the Animal Ally feat. This was focused on Marshal Spirits and taking that human FCB to have so much spirit surge rerolls (which thankfully to the kami medium archetype, is possible to accrue from first level, because the kami medium has the Taboo class feature from 1st level). Swift Aid feat, bodyguard feat and Benevolent armor&weapon with traits that augmented Aid Another action (forgot the name) with a morningstar wielded twohanded. The best thing was that Insipiring bonus which Marshal gives as intermediate power, to apply the spirit bonus to attack rolls&damage of all your allies.
Lastly, a kitsune spirit dancer focused on two.weapon fighting with two Agile wakizashis. Then added Possessed hand feat and hand's autonomy which were very useful for two-weapon attacks and having an extra attack/action per round, all while being supercool temathic and freak. Bought a couple of Channel Spirit feat (archmage hierophant), just to have more durability during the day adventure in town or other safe locations to save spirit dance rounds for combat and ambushes. Very powerful and adaptable, it was unstoppable...
I hade some minor retrainings, one worth to mention for the kami medium to get rid of the Channel Spirit (archmage) feat when the GM decided that it could not be used by a kami medium. The kick for any Medium is Channel Spirit feat, so any medium can channel spirit that are useful in some situations, than go crazy, then make his normal class seance for prolonged and undisturbed benefits or start another feat seance.
I like Marshal for buffs. Racial Weapon Proficiencies help out. You can be an effwctive face, boost allies, maybe even get intimidate builds up.
I like dips into Fighter or Barbarian. Archetypes can shift around some stuff.
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So most of the recommendations rely on various archetypes, which is understandable. Some of them are pretty good, and I might look at using one or more in the future some time.
I probably should have said this in the starting post, but I'm really looking for recommendations without archetypes. I actually love the flavor of the new Fiend Keeper archetype for gripplis in Blood of the Beast, but I'm pretty sure none of the archetypes for this class stack. Fiend Keeper really doesn't alter the key aspects of the class that much, which is why I'm treating it as a non-archetype medium for build planning.
But as a small race with a strength penalty, gripplis aren't exactly built for the typical champion spirit power attacking build. On the other hand, they do get racial proficiency with nets or rapiers (but not both), and a dex bonus, so there's potential for ranged, finesse, and/or net-throwing builds. Again, that would probably focus on the champion spirit, which is typical for this class and a little boring.
People keep saying trickster works for combat, but I just don't see it. First off, you get nothing combat related until level 6. Then at level 6, you get 2/3 of a rogue sneak attack, but you have to work twice as hard to get it on any enemy, since flanking doesn't count. And you don't get rogue tricks, dex to damage like an unchained rogue, or even have many feats left for two weapon fighting or anything, since you have to invest so heavily in improved and greater feint. So the trickster just wishes it was as good as a rogue (which is generally considered an underpowered class) in the same way that the archmage wishes it were a wizard and the hierophant wishes it were a cleric.
I can actually see marshall spirit being worthwhile starting at level 11, but not before. That's the level when you can buff your allies with the level 6 power as a move action, and still be able to do other things with your standard action. Before that, the level 6 power is like a bard's Inspire Courage, but using up your standard action EVERY round. And the 1st level power would be awesome if you could actually use it enough times per day to last a full adventuring day. But it's just not enough to build a character around.
We're not saying the trickster is GOOD at combat, we're saying it's probably his next best option for a medium that doesn't feel like they should have been a different class.
yes, this class could have just been the champion spirit and be basically the same since the other spirits feel bad to pick.
Okay, how about starting play as a Swashbuckler with the Inspired Blade archetype to gain Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), and Fencing Grace as your initial feats, giving you Dex to attack and damage rolls from the start. At 2nd level, you start taking Medium levels and never look back.
Doing that lets you go with the Champion legend as your primary legend without having to rely on your penalized strength.
If you want to go with the Trickster legend, you might want to consider the Rogue VMC (variant multiclassing) option from Pathfinder Unchained. At a cost of five feats, you would eventually be able to gain Trapfinding, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and 4d6 sneak attack damage (which would stack with your 6d6 Surprise Strike damage).
Other VMC options might complement other legends.
The nice thing about the VMC options is that the Medium can get some nice synergy from the VMC options that resemble but aren't exactly your favored legend.
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The minimum you need to be okay in combat as Trickster is three feats. Finesse, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint. That's about par for getting a non-Power Attack combat style online. But, you have more freedom than a feinting rogue because you can always move in and get a sneak on your first attack. Greater Feint is nice for helping your team, but not altogether necessary.
But, combat is not the Trickster's focus. Tricksters are the best jack-of-all trades, master of whatever-we-need-today. A trickster Medium will always outskill the rogue (not too hard), and give the bards and investigators a hard run for their money. If you pay attention to the briefing and take a look at the party, you can easily fill in gaps, and that is before you start spellcasting.
As a note, the Dark Communion can really supercharge the Champion spirit. At 7th level you can get +1 spirit bonus AND +1 profane atk/damage. Just make sure you can make Int or Cha checks.
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sorry, I forgot that it was tied to the bard archetype.
Still not convinced it's that great. Bards and mediums have heroism as lv2 spell, which is a great long term buff. Having your lv2 house heroism and haste still doesn't seem like much of a benefit to having lv2 be heroism and lv3 be haste.So yes, it is technically better, but not something I feel is better enough to tout it as a benefit.
Eh. You can always use a higher level spell slot on a spell, if you like. And it's not like I was saying it was the best thing ever, it was third on my list of benefits, and touted explicitly as a 'side benefit'.
It is not the reason that Storyteller going Hierophant/Archmage is a good build.
By 7th level, you're giving the party bigger bonuses than a standard Medium, while doing 6-level casting instead of 4-level, and having personal bonuses almost on par with a Champion Medium (you're at about a total of -1 or -2 to hit, -3 or -4 damage personally...unless spells enhance that). Taking a penalty of that sort to give the entire rest of the party +2 to +4 to hit and up to +2 damage is a decent trade in its own right, never mind the extra higher level spells (and/or ones from a different list).
but is it better than a bard? Or any archetype that gets inspired courage? At lv7 I could be giving the same bonus with 9th level casting. I'm just trying to find a reason this would be better than another class at something niche.
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but is it better than a bard? Or any archetype that gets inspired courage? At lv7 I could be giving the same bonus with 9th level casting. I'm just trying to find a reason this would be better than another class at something niche.
Well, it's worse at skills than Bard...most days, though it can get any skill set it wants by going Marshall.
It also has access to the entire raft of condition removal spells available to a Cleric, something many bards would kill for, and can pick many of its spells on a daily basis ala prepared casters (and indeed, can pick some on the fly via spirit abilities), and from its choice of the Wizard and Cleric lists on any individual day. Both are very nice advantages over Bard.
It's certainly lacking in the raw power of an Evangelist Cleric, but then so's a Bard.
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That would help, but I think the biggest trouble from the OP's post is that the champion spirit is overdone and boring moreso than how good or bad it might be for this particular build.
Doing that lets you go with the Champion legend as your primary legend without having to rely on your penalized strength.
Yeah, but I'll probably end up just going that straight champion route. Weapon Finesse and racial rapier proficiency, along with all the champion's bonuses and the archetype's additional bonuses could be good enough. I'm considering TWF and just carrying a dagger as my second weapon, so I can channel a lesser champion spirit for more surges per day until level 6, since I won't need any extra proficiencies.
Just a little boring and generic, and doesn't take advantage of the class's flexibility, which somewhat defeats the purpose of playing a medium. And on the off day that I do happen to use a different spirit, I won't have to worry about losing weapon proficiency.
That would help, but I think the biggest trouble from the OP's post is that the champion spirit is overdone and boring moreso than how good or bad it might be for this particular build.
Doing that lets you go with the Champion legend as your primary legend without having to rely on your penalized strength.
Yeah, but I'll probably end up just going that straight champion route. Weapon Finesse and racial rapier proficiency, along with all the champion's bonuses and the archetype's additional bonuses could be good enough. I'm considering TWF and just carrying a dagger as my second weapon, so I can channel a lesser champion spirit for more surges per day until level 6, since I won't need any extra proficiencies.
Just a little boring and generic, and doesn't take advantage of the class's flexibility, which somewhat defeats the purpose of playing a medium. And on the off day that I do happen to use a different spirit, I won't have to worry about losing weapon proficiency.
Ok don't want an archetype? But what about the Channel Spirit feat? That improves greatly a Medium' versatility, depending on the campaing and your plastyle. Just instead of doing a normal seance in the morning, do wait for the campaign to evolve, then start the feat seance to gain the bonuses of the chosen legend (need skill training on the fly? Want that particular and very specific spell that would have helped a lot?), then just stop the seance and repeat until you know you are going to adventure or combat a lot, in which case it is going to be more useful doing the normal class seance to get the benefits till next day. That feat is going to change a lot your versatility. You can also use that feat many times in the day.
Also, give this archetype a chance , cuz it changes your "casting stat" to one of the two grippli improved ability scores and it increases flexibility. Thanks to Channel Spirit you are not going to be a dead weight when finishing the rounds per day of Spirit Dancing
the no archetype is because he's wanting to use a new archetype that is not out on any free site.