I'm trying to come up with some sort of iconic Halfling Rogue build that uses daggers but having a hard time figuring out how to increase the damage consistently.
Are there any good routes to go with 3 levels of Unchained Rogue? Would dipping into Hunter, Slayer, Warpriest, or Inquisitor work at all? I'm not convinced that staying Rogue after level 3 is the best option to increase damage. Any suggestions?
the river rat trait gives you +1 damage with daggers. Not a lot but a trait that give damage in all situations is pretty unique.
the knife master archetype give you on average +1 damage per SA die which isn't bad either.
IF you're just looking for hitting hard with daggers, fighter is worth a look. You can poach a warpriest's sacred weapon and throw weapon training on top of that.
If you're going to go rogue 3, you should go rogue 4. Debilitating injury is very good. That said, unchained rouge is not the only way to make a high damage dex based knife fighter. Fighter, vigilante, swashbuckler, bloodrager, slayer, and barbarian can all make it work very well.
Don't overlook slashing grace and two-weapon grace. And worshiping Pharasma can give you a +2 sacred bonus to hit with deific obedience, which can open up some nice prestige classes as well.
I think Slayer seems pretty safe and gets rid of a lot of Rogue Weaknesses. Sneak Attack won't be as high but Studied Target definitely helps out.
Could a vital strike build work? Maybe by skipping Rogue entirely and using Slashing Grace. With Warpriest to make prereqs easier and to boost damage...
Vital strike is all about stacking weapon dice as high as possible (because you only get other modifiers once). Daggers are really weak and the OP has at least a little SA and dex to damage, it's basically the exact opposite of what a vital strike build wans.
Not a rogue, but the most effective dagger-wielding character I've played in PF was a halfling medium.
With River Rat, Pharasma's Deific Obedience, TWF, and Spirit Focus (Champion), using the halfling FCB, when Channeling the Champion at level 6 your attack progression will be +8/+8/+8 with each attack doing d3+1+3+4 damage. Since you're using daggers, you can always forgo the champion's lesser power to get two extra uses of spirit surge (which applies to rolls to hit, which is handy). Your good saves are will and fort, and next level you can cast haste for +10/+10/+10/+10 (and you'll get your first iterative attack the level after.) Level 11, and you get pounce.
Plus, if you want to be a rogue on your off-days, you can channel the trickster and your combat suite will be compatible with the trickster's powers too.
If you're going to go rogue 3, you should go rogue 4. Debilitating injury is very good. That said, unchained rouge is not the only way to make a high damage dex based knife fighter. Fighter, vigilante, swashbuckler, bloodrager, slayer, and barbarian can all make it work very well.
Don't overlook slashing grace and two-weapon grace. And worshiping Pharasma can give you a +2 sacred bonus to hit with deific obedience, which can open up some nice prestige classes as well.
New feat in Villain Codex which allows the various 'grace' feats to be used with two weapons.
As to boosting Rogue dagger damage... sneak attack seems the obvious route. Knife Master UnRogue with Sniper Goggles (or Greater Sniper Goggles) would do 4.5 average damage for melee or 6.5 average damage per ranged sneak attack die. Combine with lots of sneak attack dice and two weapon fighting for lots of attacks and it gets messy. Can do the ranged attacks consistently with Sharding and a few different returning options (e.g. Vigilante or Ricochet Toss).
The trick is to make sure that you always get sneak attack. Easily done if you have a flanking buddy in the party. Otherwise, IMO the simplest way to accomplish it is to make sure you can see them, but they can't see you... improved invisibility, tiny hut, darkness + darkvision, deeper darkness + see in darkness, fog cloud + mist sight, et cetera. Bonus... if they can't see they are easier to hit, helping offset the lower Rogue BAB. There are countless ways to do this and it is a good idea to have two or three backups in case you run into something that CAN see through your normal concealment. I've got a Dark Stalker NPC with around half a dozen methods.
Have a Mouser/Vexing Dodger build that uses Daggers and Un-Rogue dex to damage. Since he's usually climbing on a target, he's almost always flanking, so gets his sneak attack dice very consistently. At 9th level, he's at +17/+12 on his attacks before adding any situational bonuses, and damage is d3 + 10 + 4d6. He doesn't TWF since he needs a hand free to climb his target. He's not super optimized for damage, but while climbing on the opponent, he debuffs the target's attacks against both himself and other allies, and then can stack on even more debuff with Debilitating Injury from Un-Rogue.
(While the archetype is silent on this matter, our GM ruled that if the 'Dodger is climbing on his target, he is occupying the same square.)
I've got a swashbuckler that works pretty well for me. Flying Blade Swashbuckler with 2 levels of Far Strike Monk. The two levels of monk really help with 3 bonus feats in 2 levels, 3 to all saves, evasion, and a flurry for when the primary trick doesn't work.
The primary trick being Startoss Style line. And intentionally provoking for the ranged attack. This is because of Disrupting Counter. Basically, hit anyone who attempts to strike you in melee. With enough static damage (and a fortuitous enchant) you have a good chance to blow out an enemy or two with the Startoss attack and 2 AoOs... And get that panache back. I also STRONGLY recommend a dagger over starknife. The crit range is everything.
I'd go with the River Rat trait, the possessed Hand feat, Two Weapon Grace, Diefic Obedience of Pharasma, Weapon Master 4 w/Focused Weapon... It takes a while to fully come online but in the end you are using daggers at the damage of great swords with a higher attack bonus and still being based off your DEX.
It's funny - I've actually got a PC that combines several of the suggestions in this thread.
Mine's a half-elf, not halfing, but I went Unchained Rogue for the dex to damage, using the typical TWF feat chain, Knife Master for the d8 sneaks instead of d6, Scout for more sneak attacks, and a single level dip in Medium with the Champion spirit, which gives +3 damage on every attack and a few spirit surges per day, among other things.
Only up to level 2 so far (Rogue 1/Medium 1), so I can't tell you how well it all works. But it should be good enough to be a useful combatant, even if I'm not a melee monster.
* Traits: Fate's Favored (+1 luck bonuses, goes with tattoos and divine favor) and river rat (+1 dagger damage)
* Feats: lvl 1 (two weapon fighting) lvl 3 (divine obedience pharasma: +2 to hit with daggers) lvl 5 (extra traits, armor expert and one more to taste)
* At lvl 5 buy a mithril breastplate. You'll have no medium armor proficiency, but as it will have 0 ACP you can wear it without penalty.
* Str (18) Dex (15) Con (14) Int (9) Wis (13) Cha (7)
Get +1 Dex at lvl 4, +1 Wis at lvl 8 and +1 Int at lvl 12. As a cult leader, you still get 3 skill points per level. This can get you perception, stealth and intimidate (as you get a +2 bonus and this lets you have one face skill)
* For the class, your daggers do 1d6 damage at lvl 1, which increases to 1d8 at lvl 5 and 1d10 at lvl 10.
* Rather than waste money enchanting two daggers, only enchant one of them. Have three daggers in total. An enchanted one, an adamantine one, and a mithril one (counts as silver for DR without the damage penalty). You can further enchant your daggers as a swift action with sacred weapon.
* At lvl 6, here is what you are looking at after having a swift action divine favor. Also assuming that you have a +1 dagger and a mithril dagger (using PFS prestige points to buy it for free). Also assuming that you've used a swift action right before attacking to add another +1 to your main weapon. Also assuming that he has a +1 Mithril Breastplate, a +1 ring, a +1 buckler and a +1 amulet.
Combat
Main Hand To Hit: +13 (+4 BaB, +4 str, +2 weapon, +2 divine obedience, +3 divine favor, -2 dual wielding)
Not bad for someone using a pair of knives, right? And the daggers base damage, sneak attacks, enchantments and divine favor just keep getting better as you level up.
The Knife Master/Scout combo isnt too bad for a knife-fighter. You get to apply your Sneak Attack to charges (unless the enemy has Uncanny Dodge) and its 8th level ability allows for some mobile sneak attacks of sorts.
I was just throwing around some numbers to see what I could come up with as a Rogue3/Warpriest8 to see how he would turn out at the end of his PFS career.
1) Rogue 1: Bab +0, Toughness* (lvl 1), Trapfinding (Rogue), Finesse Training (Rogue)
2) Rogue 2: Bab +1, Evasion (Rogue), Combat Trick: Shield Focus (Rogue)
3) Rogue 3: Bab +2, Missile Shield (lvl 3), Finesse Training: Dex to Dmg (Rogue)
4) Warpriest 1: Bab +2, Weapon Focus: Dagger (Warpriest), +1 Dex
5) Warpriest 2: Bab +3, Deific Obedience (lvl 5)
6) Warpriest 3: Bab +4, Risky Striker (Warpriest)
7) Warpriest 4: Bab +5, Piranha Strike (lvl 7)
8) Warpriest 5: Bab +5, +1 Dex
9) Warpriest 6: Bab +6/+1, Covering Shield (lvl 9), Weapon Specialization: Dagger (Warpriest)
10) Warpriest 7: Bab +7/+2
11) Warpriest 8: Bab +8/+3, FREE (lvl 11)
12) Warpriest 9: Bab +8/+3, Greater Shield Focus (Warpriest) +1 Dex
-----------------
With the above and assuming I'd have +3 Darkleaf Studded Armor, +3 Mithral Heavy Metal Shield, +2 Amulet of Natural Protection, and a +2 Ring of Protection here's what I'm looking at for defense.
AC: 35 (32 if using Risky Striker), and can deflect 1 missle attack per round.
The defense side seems great, but how about the Offense? I'm assuming I'd have a +2 weapon at the least.
Attack: +21/+16
Dmg: 1d6 +18 + (2d6 if I get SA) + (5 if using Destruction Blessing) = 1d6 +23 +2d6
Warpriest seems like a good option with the Swift action buffs, Warpriest levels counting as Fighter levels gives access to some nice stuff. Also the Sacred Weapon ability gives some flexibility with buffs, allowing Ghost Touch and Holy if Neutral Good alignment.
Focusing on Dex and having Evasion allows for easy Reflex Saves for no damage and high Touch AC, plus Missle Shield deflects any ranged attack that would have normally hit me.
What do you guys think? Is this a good idea or bad?
Not a rogue, but the most effective dagger-wielding character I've played in PF was a halfling medium.
With River Rat, Pharasma's Deific Obedience, TWF, and Spirit Focus (Champion), using the halfling FCB, when Channeling the Champion at level 6 your attack progression will be +8/+8/+8 with each attack doing d3+1+3+4 damage. Since you're using daggers, you can always forgo the champion's lesser power to get two extra uses of spirit surge (which applies to rolls to hit, which is handy). Your good saves are will and fort, and next level you can cast haste for +10/+10/+10/+10 (and you'll get your first iterative attack the level after.) Level 11, and you get pounce.
Plus, if you want to be a rogue on your off-days, you can channel the trickster and your combat suite will be compatible with the trickster's powers too.
Would it be possible to still be effective if going Rogue 3 first to pickup Weapon Finesse, Dex to Dmg, and Rogue Talent for a Combat Trick? Then going rest into Medium? I'm curious if this can outperform the Warpriest build. (Warpriest build is highly defensive, but if this can output enough damage it may be completely worth it.)
EDIT: From what I can tell so far this is what a Rogue3/Medium9 would look like at level 12.
Rogue3/Medium9:
1) Rogue 1: Bab +0, Toughness (lvl 1), Trapfinding (Rogue), Finesse Training (Rogue)
2) Rogue 2: Bab +1, Evasion (Rogue), Combat Trick: Two-Weapon Fighting (Rogue)
3) Rogue 3: Bab +2, Deific Obedience (lvl 3), Finesse Training: Dex to Dmg (Rogue)
4) Medium 1: Bab +2, +1 Dex
5) Medium 2: Bab +3, Risky Striker (lvl 5)
6) Medium 3: Bab +4,
7) Medium 4: Bab +5, Piranha Strike (lvl 7)
8) Medium 5: Bab +5, +1 Dex
9) Medium 6: Bab +6/+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (lvl 9)
10) Medium 7: Bab +7/+2
11) Medium 8: Bab +8/+3, Risky Striker (lvl 11)
12) Medium 9: Bab +8/+3, +1 Dex
I think your suggestion PossibleCabbage on Medium, combined with a 3 level dip of Unchained Rogue might be the best possible option? Anyone able to outperform this?
If you want to stick with rogue, knife master is the way to go. D8 sneak attack die, additional damages, it's good.
If you want to dip, I suggest going into warpriest. Rogue 3 or 4, warpriest 6 nets you weapon specialization and daggers doing d8 damage, plus you can further enchant them in a pinch.
Level: 12 (Unchained Rogue 3 / Medium 9)
HP: 111
AC: 27ac (24ac using Risky Striker)
Atk: +15/+15/+15/+10/+10
Dmg: 1d3 + 31 + (2d6 SA) per attack
Looks like I miscalculated my Attack score. I forgot to add +3 from Champion Spirit. Also, there's the option of retraining Toughness to Weapon Focus: Dagger. With those two added it should be.
Atk: +20/+20/+20/+15/+15 with Haste.
Dmg: 1d3 + 31 + 2d6SA per attack.
Someone did a spreadsheet a while back always assuming in tier scenarios for PFS and it was ~120k to get to 12. I am not going to go into gear too much, just going to assume I pick up a couple Plume of Panache and a Swordmaster's Flair instead of your +3 darkleaf studded leather. And a single +3 weapon(+1 agile fortuitous) instead of 2 +2s. I am also assuming Agile only affects melee attacks, not ranged.
Extrapolating my PFS Flying Blade Swashbuckler out to 12 (he's currently 7 I think?):
V for Vastatio:
Human Swashbuckler(Flying Blade) 10 / Monk(Far Strike) 2
Str 10
Con 14
Dex 15 +2 Human +3 level +4 belt = 24
Int 8
Wis 14 +2 headband = 16
Cha 14 +2 headband = 16
Assuming a single +1 Fortuitous Agile Adamantine Dagger
Same RoP +2, Same AoNA +2, +7 Dex, +3 Wis, +4 mage armor, +2 nimble = 30 AC in a courtiers outfit
And effectively another 4 AC vs melee from Disrupting Counter = 34 AC (you can throw in +4 Shield spell w/UMD if you have prep time, and a +1 Dusty Rose Cracked Ioun for 5k)
Fort: +3 Swash, +3 Monk, +2 Con = +8 (before items)
Ref: +7 Swash, +3 Monk +7 Dex = +17, Evasion
Will: +3 Swash, +3 Monk, +3 Wis = +9
5/day +3 immediate to a save
Assuming you would have a Cloak of some sort, probably +4/5, and a Pale Green Cracked Ioun for another +1, Dragonbone Divination Sticks for +3 luck to a random save for 6.4k, etc.
Attack: BAB +10, +7 dex, +2 Deific, +2 Weapon Training, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Enhancement, +1 PBS, +1 haste, -3 Deadly Aim, -2 Flurry* = +20, +22 if using Startoss Style instead of flurrying a single target.
*Flurry is a -2, but counts your monk levels as full BAB so a net -1, but at this level it also does bump Deadly Aim to the -4 tier.
Disrupting Counter does not get the penalty for Deadly Aim (only applies to ranged attacks), does not get the penalty for flurry, does not get the bonus for PBS, and does get a +1 to hit from trait = +25, with an "iterative" 1/round at +20 if the first hit (fortuitous)
Damage: +10 Precise Strike, +6(or 8) Deadly Aim, +6 Startoss Feats, +2 Weapon Training, +1 enchantment, +1 River Rat, +1 PBS, +1 Martial Focus = 1d4+30 flurry, +28 Startoss Shower
Melee Adds +7 dex, loses Deadly aim, PBS = 28
(Another Pale Green Cracked Ioun stone for +1 to hit not included)
Crit 17-20, range increment 25'
Flurry w/haste = +20/+20/+20/+15/+10 1d4+30 (crit for 2d4+50, regain 1 panache)
Startoss = +22 vs 3-4 targets (depending on your reading of Startoss Shower vs Comet) for 1d4+28 damage (crit for 2d4+46, regain 1 panache). For when you need to use your move action to move.
However, the idea is to provoke all the time.
So if you have someone in your face, you will declare that you are going to flurry ranged attacks. Using Swordmaster's Flair if you need the reach.
The enemy decides to take his AoO.
Spend 1 Panache, Disrupting Counter for +25 1d4+28, Fortuitous +20 1d4+28 (crit 2d4+46, regain 1 panache)
Enemy Attacks vs "34 AC"
First ranged attack: +20 1d4+30
Does enemy have Combat Reflexes?
If so: Spend another Panache and Disrupting Counter again +25 1d4+28; and enemy finishes its attack.
Finish the rest of Flurry, continuing to spend Panache to until the enemy stops attacking you back, you run out of panache (never use the last point or lose precise strike), or one of you dies.
Against an enemy without combat reflexes, but does take an AoO, we are looking at:
+25/+20 1d4+28; +20/+20/+20/+15/+10 1d4+30.
If the enemy does have combat reflexes add in another +25 1d4+28, and likely a 3rd or 4th if lucky on confirming crits and getting Panache back.
If you don't have someone in your face: Move until you do, then Startoss Shower to hit him and all his friends in a 25' increment chain to soften them up.
Level 13 is huge though, Signature Deed: Disrupting Counter for free, once per round.
Extrapolating, because my actual character is likely leaving Swashbuckler after 5 for Vigilante for RP reasons.
Main Hand: +13/+8(7 BAB+5 DEX+ 1 River Rat +1 Possessed Hand + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Weapon Training -2 Piranha Strike, -1 TWF)
1D6+18 Assuming Risky Striker activates
Off Hand: +12 (7 BAB+5 DEX+ 1 River Rat + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Weapon Training -2 Piranha Strike -1 TWF)
1D6+12 Assuming Risky Striker activates
I havent had a chance to look at Two Weapon Grace yet to see if its better than dipping Unchained Rogue.
I would also point out that this build is using no gear beyond mundane daggers at this point. Grab Gloves of the Duelist and two +1 Daggers, Voidglass daggers if you can swing it, and you net another +3 to hit and +4 to damage, a belt of dexterity adds at least another +1/+1 to that. Coming up with:
+17/+16/+12, 1D6+23/1D6+17/1D6+23
What i am seeing from this thread though is that there are a lot of ways to build an effective dagger user.
Dagger Daring champion is better? Let's see that build then and compare it to my Flying Blade a few posts back.
You are looking to best:
+25/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10 1d4+(28-30); range increment of 25'; crit 17-20 x2; AC "34".
Dagger Daring champion is better? Let's see that build then and compare it to my Flying Blade a few posts back.
You are looking to best:
+25/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10 1d4+(28-30); range increment of 25'; crit 17-20 x2; AC "34".
Well at a basic overview, just by virtue of a level 12 Daring Champion you can add a flat +36 damage modifier before any feats, stats or items. Though you cant use the off hand for TWF but then again i would rule you cant flurry with precise strike either since it emulates TWF even if you are doing it with one weapon.
Lets assume a few feats such as Chain Challenge, Slashing Grace, Piranha Strike, Diefic Obedience for Pharasma, Possessed Hand. THere are three unused feats, two must be combat feats, and two teamwork feats to play with. it might be worth it to pick up some extra panache to fuel boosted Precise Strike. though you could also go for improved critical to fuel panache for a feat... which this build has to spare. heck, lets grab improved initiative, improved critical and extra panache.
River Rat and Order of the Dragon.
Lets use your same 24 DEX, assume Haste and a +3 dagger.
Damage is (3 enhancement + 7 DEX + 1 Hand + 8 Piranha Strike + 12 Precise Strike) 1D4+31/challenge for 1D4+43/Challenge plus 1 point of panache for 1D4+55
A challenged crit would net 2D4+72.
Assume at least three hits in a full attack for ~147 damage with one point of panache spent. a crit in there is what the kids would call "sick nasty yo".
Challenges at this point are pretty plentiful and chain challenge can stretch them out even further though it does compete for action economy with boosting precise strike.
Just want to point it out: a warpriest with a magic domain deity can throw his dagger 30ft and have it return to him. Great for when your dagger is heavily enchanted.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
That sacred weapon damage progression that the Warpriest gets can net you a nice damage bonus as you gain levels.
A Fighter who gets the Weapon Training eventually adds +4 to damage from that class feature alone. There is an Advanced Weapon Training option that enables a Fighter to snag the Warpriest's sacred weapon damage progression.
Any class that counts as a Fighter can gain Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization for an additional +4 damage.
You might actually want to consider skipping the 3 Unchained Rogue levels to take the Weapon Finesse/Weapon Focus (Dagger)/Slashing Grace (Dagger) feat chain via Fighter levels.
The Barbarian VMC option, if you think you can spare the feats, would let you Rage for bonuses to attack and damage beyond what most feats could give you. If you are Dex based, you would obviously want to use the Unchained Barbarian's version of Rage -- note that Pathfinder Unchained does not specify which you should use.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
On the other hand, if you decide to keep the three Unchained Rogue levels, you could add one Cleric (of Pharasma) level and one Unchained Monk level to qualify for Crusader's Flurry, thereby gaining a second dagger attack at full BAB.
Dagger Daring champion is better? Let's see that build then and compare it to my Flying Blade a few posts back.
You are looking to best:
+25/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10 1d4+(28-30); range increment of 25'; crit 17-20 x2; AC "34".
Well at a basic overview, just by virtue of a level 12 Daring Champion you can add a flat +36 damage modifier before any feats, stats or items. Though you cant use the off hand for TWF but then again i would rule you cant flurry with precise strike either since it emulates TWF even if you are doing it with one weapon.
Lets assume a few feats such as Chain Challenge, Slashing Grace, Piranha Strike, Diefic Obedience for Pharasma, Possessed Hand. THere are three unused feats, two must be combat feats, and two teamwork feats to play with. it might be worth it to pick up some extra panache to fuel boosted Precise Strike. though you could also go for improved critical to fuel panache for a feat... which this build has to spare. heck, lets grab improved initiative, improved critical and extra panache.
River Rat and Order of the Dragon.
Lets use your same 24 DEX, assume Haste and a +3 dagger.
Damage is (3 enhancement + 7 DEX + 1 Hand + 8 Piranha Strike + 12 Precise Strike) 1D4+31/challenge for 1D4+43/Challenge plus 1 point of panache for 1D4+55
A challenged crit would net 2D4+72.
Assume at least three hits in a full attack for ~147 damage with one point of panache spent. a crit in there is what the kids would call "sick nasty yo".
Challenges at this point are pretty plentiful and chain challenge can stretch them out even further though it does compete for action economy with boosting precise strike.
Oh noice, a couple of things that aren't legal for PFS (possessed hand, chain challenge). Too bad my character was restrained by PFS. But to each their own.
So an average CR 12 has an AC of 27 using the Monster Statistics by CR monster creation table. So lets use that shall we?
Daring Champion = 159.21:
Alright, Lets assume you walked up to the guy or at least walked up to get within your range increment of 10' and also challenged him round 1. Ie, we'll get to Round 1 later.
Lets just look at round two at this point. We've got +26/+26/+21/+16 for 1d4+43, and the first attack will be at +55 damage, because Precise Strike's Swift action bonus on next attack, not next hit.
Congrats, you only miss on a 1 on the first two attacks.
(Hit %) * (Average Hit Damage) + (Crit %) * (Confirm % ie Hit %) * (Extra Damage on Crit) = Expected Damage. I find breaking up this equation this way a little easier to enter into excel when dealing with some static damage that isn't multiplied on a crit.
+26 w/ Panache: 60.99
+26 w/o: 49.59
+21: 36.54
+16: 23.49
Sum: 170.61, a bit higher then you were estimating actually.
First problem, as you noted. If you use a Swift Action for Precise Strike on your turn or not. If you killed the guy (Benchpressing says CR 12 has ~160 HP, so on average you will) you cannot activate Chain Challenge. This is because if you use an immediate on your own turn it is a swift action instead and still limited by 1/round. Since it did not trigger out of turn, it does not chew up your swift next round. If you choose not to activate Chain Challenge, its gone. Luckily, you you have at least 4 challenges a day anyway, but if you plan on using chain challenge, don't activate Precise Strike's as a swift. This brings it down to 159.21 which is much closer to your guess.
Flying Blade =143.881:
Interestingly, running the math has shown me that Agile is not as good another +1 for this character. But lets go with Agile anyway, since I did post about that before (its a difference of about 5 damage a round on average)
Assuming Round 2 as well, swift action to activate Startoss Style in round 1. No Swift Actions spent in round 2.
+25 melee: 31.14 (if we do spend a swift on Precise: 40.14)
+20 iterative: 20.241 (includes chance of the primary AoO hitting first)
+20 ranged: 24.05 x3
+15 ranged: 14.8
+10 ranged: 5.55
Sum: 143.881 no Swift; 152.881 w/swift on Precise Strike. If Agile does apply to thrown weapon attacks (I mean, a dagger is still a dagger, and you do get str to thrown attacks normally) I would be around 170.381. But I will error on the side of restrictive GM for that.
So congrats, you beat me. For at least 4 combats a day, anyway. And assuming your party doesn't help you kill off more then 1 challenged enemy in a round, or that all the remaining enemies are more then 30' from you.
Lets look at Round 1 now, eh?
Daring Champion - Round 1 = 49.59:
You'll likely need to move up, at least to within 30', and likely to within 5' because you are assuming melee. Challenge on Round 1, and 1 attack; +26 w/o: 49.59. However, you don't want to throw your dagger... basically at all. From what it looks like, no Ricochet Toss, and Piranha Strike does not apply to ranged attacks.
If you had to throw, you would be at: +30 40.47, and be without your primary weapon. You could instead have a couple of extra +1s to throw, but lets ignore that.
If you were at 30' (in your third range increment) you still hit on a 2, so 39.52.
However, further then 30' Precise Strike drops off, which lowers you to:
40': 24.48 50': 21.42 60':18.36
Flying Blade - Round 1 = 92.5-122.3:
On my Round 1: I would spend a Swift Action on Startoss Style, then I would also move up, but if the enemies are already within 30', I could settle for a 5' step and a round of just flurry (no Disrupting Counter) for 92.5 average damage. This also happens if the enemy does not take my gambit and doesn't take his AoO.
If I am at 30' I am now in the second range increment and my damage goes to 72.15.
Flying Blade is able to Precise Strike up to 60', but beyond 30' I would lose PBS = 66.23
Beyond 50' I am in finally in my third range increment so = 51.91
Or if an enemy is within a move action, I could move to provoke Disrupting Counter and use Startoss Shower: at +22: 75% chance of first hitting, 56.25% second, 42.18% 3rd, 31.64% 4th (depending on reading of Shower) = 122.338 (111.39 w/out the 4th). And assuming there are actually enough enemies, though they only have to be within 25'of the next one.
Since you are expecting to be melee, and I have a range increment of 25', its likely that you will see a "Round 1" a second time in a fight or put you in the second (or sixth) range increment. A "Round 1" isn't so bad for me in comparison. I have a higher expected damage flurrying at 60' then you do moving and attacking once.
If we each have at least 1 round where we need to take a move action, it will take 6 rounds before the Daring Champion catches up. Though if the enemies wise up after attacking the Flying Blade once, its more like round 3.
I am assuming the enemy does nothing with their own actions however. If we include them making melee attacks against either of us, my damage starts climbing by 31 per panache, after the 1st one per round. Since you are more accurate with your main attack and deal more damage on a single hit Parry and Riposte does lean in your favor... unless you kill them with it, or kill the enemy the next round and not get Chain Challenge. I'll have a slight edge in Panache regeneration, but I also spend it faster.
And... what is the Daring Champion's AC at? If we assume the same +3 darkleaf/mithral armor from the Warpriest I was originally comparing too (and +2 AoNA, +2 RoP), you are looking at what, 24 AC? 25 with haste? I suppose you could throw in a +1-2 buckler for "cheap" to bring it up to 28. And a -2 against non-challenged targets. The Flying Blade would be at 31 AC with haste, or 35 if it hits with Disrupting Counter (or 39 if he has a round to prep the Shield wand). The High Attack on a CR 12 is hitting the Daring Champion on a 7, and Low Attack on a 13. The High is hitting the Flying Blade on a 14, and the Low on a 20. It only seems dangerous to provoke all those AoOs.
But hey, at least the Daring Champion's Fort save is 2 higher.
Ah, i didnt catch the PFS limit. Ok so we trade out Chain Challenge and Possessed Hand and instead grab Martial Focus, Weapon Focus (I forgot to add that in to the original build) and Focused Weapon: Dagger. The hit and damage modifiers stay the same as before but at level 12 the dagger jumps from an average of 2 per roll on a D4 to an average of 5 on a D10 which is a fun little boost.
For AC we'll look at a ball park figure of 37 (10 base + 7 DEX + 3 Nimble + 7 Armor + 5 shield + 2 Ring of Protection +2 Amulet of Natural Armor + 1 Haste) including the +3 dagger from before and there is still 41,150 GP of wealth by level unspent. I went with +4 Darkleaf and a +4 buckler. You could maybe stretch the budget a bit and upgrade the ring and amulet to another +1 each and possibly still get the dagger up to a +4 but that would rule out a Cloak of resistance so i tried to be a bit more realistic with expenditures.
I am still not sold on Flurry and Precise Strike mixing, am i the only one who feels uncomfortable with that?
Ah, I missed that daring champion also got nimble. I was just trying to use equivalently priced items that the warpriest/rogue had used up thread to make comparison easier. Which was where the +3 darkleaf studded leather came from. If you go ahead and buff the armor by +2 and tacking on another +4 enchanted shield, yeah your AC starts looking the same. Meanwhile if I had an extra 24k gold I'd probably just buy the items mentioned up thread, 3 ioun stones (+1 AC, attack and saves) and the dragonbone divination sticks for +3 luck to one of my saves all day. So I wouldn't be buffing my AC by much anyway. But my attack would go up by 1, or increase Dex belt to +6.
In the end they are comparable, I just feel that being ranged is an underrated bonus for full attacks.
Your can specifically flurry all of your attacks with a single weapon, which in this case happens to be one handed, so I see no conflict with precise/startoss. It would be like saying a Magus can't spell combat, because he needs a hand free and if he uses spell combat he is twf and so can't spell combat.
Ah, I missed that daring champion also got nimble. I was just trying to use equivalently priced items that the warpriest/rogue had used up thread to make comparison easier. Which was where the +3 darkleaf studded leather came from. If you go ahead and buff the armor by +2 and tacking on another +4 enchanted shield, yeah your AC starts looking the same. Meanwhile if I had an extra 24k gold I'd probably just buy the items mentioned up thread, 3 ioun stones (+1 AC, attack and saves) and the dragonbone divination sticks for +3 luck to one of my saves all day. So I wouldn't be buffing my AC by much anyway. But my attack would go up by 1, or increase Dex belt to +6.
In the end they are comparable, I just feel that being ranged is an underrated bonus for full attacks.
Your can specifically flurry all of your attacks with a single weapon, which in this case happens to be one handed, so I see no conflict with precise/startoss. It would be like saying a Magus can't spell combat, because he needs a hand free and if he uses spell combat he is twf and so can't spell combat.
i was thinking more about how Spell Combat cant be combined with things like precise strike or dex to damage after the current round of errata/FAQs. The intent seems to be to restrict how these things can be used. But as much as the idea strikes me as off, i cant see anything against it in the rules. Its just a few too many hoops to jump through to get flurrying daggers on a Daring Champion though. It might be possible, it might be worth it, i just dont want to math it out right now.
Firebug why do you have two feats listed lvl six? You get theevel four swash bonus, and?
Looks like Startoss Comet was supposed to be listed at 5 instead of 6. The "F:" feats are from levels, "H:" from human. Bonus feats from class I listed as "Bonus Feat()".
