Anti paladins


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Ok guys, I have a serious question about anti paladins. How exactly do they work? I understand they are they opposite of paladins but what would happen if a paladin and anti paladin fought each other?


Rocket tag ensues as both smite the other and attack with their chosen implement of violence.


What do you mean "what would happen"? They're two classes that happen to be mirrors of each other thematically. There's no matter/anti-matter explosion that happens if they get too close or anything.


What would happen?

Nothing special. They both follow the rules mechanics and one of them dies. They both smite each other.

If the Antipaladin can get his cruelties to land he probably wins.


Antipaladin's aura of cowardice (gained at 3rd level) suppresses immunity to fear, so I'd say paladin has a really tough fight ahead if the two are of comparable level.


Paladin actually has the easier fight since he has swift action healing by lay on hands. In theory that can be countered by a Conductive violence stick from the AP but that's less money for the AP that Pallie boy can put elsewhere. Cruelties will probably never work even if the target isn't immune by dint of a strong fort/will and Divine Grace.


What I want to know is, does the anti paladin cancel out what the paladin can do. Like immunity to fear


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Interestingly that information can be found by reading the class!


The only immunity APs can remove is immunity to fear (via their aura of cowardice). The rest of the paladin immunity stack works as advertised.


JohnHawkins wrote:
Interestingly that information can be found by reading the class!

But in anti paladin it specifically states creatures. That is why I wanted to ask


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"Creature" is a catch-all term for "an active participant in the story or world" and includes PCs and NPCs as well as monsters. Don't think "critter," think "living being or something that acts like one."

(Though not all living things are creatures; mundane plants count as objects.)


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Paladin actually has the easier fight since he has swift action healing by lay on hands. In theory that can be countered by a Conductive violence stick from the AP but that's less money for the AP that Pallie boy can put elsewhere. Cruelties will probably never work even if the target isn't immune by dint of a strong fort/will and Divine Grace.

Yes the paladin can heal himself up, but also has to worry about offense.

If the antipaladin is built to intimidate (which the paladin will not be immune to thanks to Antipaladin) the antipaladin can cause sicken, shaken, antiapaladin aura gives another -2. That's a -6 to saves. And then the antipaladin uses cruelty to try and land either Nauseated or Stunned conditions. And all of this can be done potentially in one round, so that the paladin doesn't have a chance to use mercies to undo any of the conditions.

If it works, it's game over for the paladin. If it becomes a war of attrition, the paladin wins thanks to swift action healing.


While the paladin does lose his immunity to fear he still gets the +4 to save vs fear because of his aura of courage. Essentially the two auras cancel each other.

Lay on hands beats touch of corruption for several reasons. First is the paladin can use his lay on hands as swift action to heal himself. Second is all of the paladins mercies are applied when he uses lay on hands, where only a single cruelty is used when the antipaladin uses touch of corruption. Assuming they have matching cruelties and mercies the paladin can completely counter the antipaladins touch of corruption with a swift action. This means the paladin still gets his attack where the antipaladin’s attack is wasted.

The paladin also has a better spell list for boosting his combat ability. The antipaladin does not have a lot of buff spells that the paladin gets. The antipaladin does not get divine favor, bless weapon, or litany of righteousness to name a few.


There isn't a save vs intimidate so it doesn't do anything against intimidate builds. In fact, most antipaladins aren't going to use anything with the fear descriptor except intimidate so the paladin's aura wont do him any good.

The problem with your evaluation is that if the Antipaladin is successful with his cruelties (at a high enough level) the paladin doesn't get to take another action, including the swift action to remove the conditions.

The whole discussion is really a matter of "does the paladin fail a save" because if he does then the antiapaldin will kill him. If he doesn't then the paladin will kill him. The anitpaladin probably has two chances to try to land the stunned condition (which prevent the paladin from using LoH) or else the paladin will probably kill him.


Most likely comes down to initiative rolls.

Grand Lodge

The paladin also can use Heroic Defiance to troll the antipaladin


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

heroic defiance is nice, but the trouble is since it's an immediate action you can't swift action mercy the condition away on your next turn.

Though you can probably smite full attack to kill the antipaladin and then just deal with the condition after.


Hero’s Defiance states that you heal yourself as if you used Lay on Hands, plus an additional 1d6 of damage. This seems to imply that you do get your mercies as well as healing the damage.

I think Claxon is right about the touch of corruption, but only at higher level. Before 12th level there is not much the antipaladin can do prevent the paladin from using lay on hands. Even after 12th level the chance of the paladin failing his save is pretty slim, but there is a chance. Overall I think the advantage is to the paladin.

In a straight up fight the paladin is a lot stronger, but if the antipaladin is engaging in a straight up fight he is not much of a antipaladin. I think this is also kind of built into the classes. The anipaladin is going to use every dirty trick and underhanded method he can. The paladin on the other hand has to fight fair.


Fighting fair depends entirely on which paladin you are. Sarenrae's code says explicitly you only should fight fair if the enemy is and it certainly doesn't take much to interpret Torag's code of 0 tolerance or mercy that way either.


The advantage is with the Paladin.

The Anti-Paladin has the advantage if ToC hits and has the nauseated and/or stunned cruelty.

Even if he's using an intimidate build and can force a -2 onto the Paladin (who can do the same thing right back...) the save DC for an Anti at level 12 is 10+6+Charisma

Assuming they have similar charisma scores and the Paladin has *at least* a +2 con this means at level 12 he's got a +10 at least.

Realistically at this level he's getting an additional +2/3 and you're looking at someone who has to roll a 3-4 to succeed.

Then, unless the AP has a weapon to carry the ToC with attacks, the AP is burning their full attack every time they want to try to stick the ToC.

The biggest advantage the Paladin has is that without failing that roll they can swift action heal, and it means they're dealing damage to their enemy and probably out damaging and out healing.

Why? Most Pallies pack Fey Foundling. If they're running bracers of the merciful knight they're rocking (W greater mercy) at level 12 9d6+18 per LoH or 10d6+20 on a Heroic Defiance.

90% of the time these encounters become a war of attrition. The Paladin wins. 10% of the time the ToC sticks and the Paladin gets locked down.


What if the antipally is packing a cold iron blade because most paladins take Fey Foundling?

Silver Crusade

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I still like the idea that if a Paladin and an Anti-Paladin of equal level come in contact they annihilate releasing heat, light, and a true neutral fighter.


The Sideromancer wrote:
What if the antipally is packing a cold iron blade because most paladins take Fey Foundling?

The AntiPaladin gets +1 damage and the Paladin kills him anyway because in the grand scheme of things that +1 won't matter.


The Sideromancer wrote:
What if the antipally is packing a cold iron blade because most paladins take Fey Foundling?

The outcome doesn't change.

The problem, that people seem to have, is that the Anti-Paladin was *never* meant to be a foil, counter, or predator of the Paladin.

The original Antipaladin was a cowardly villain who couldn't even win in a stand up fight and had to flee from enemies constantly.

Somewhere someone along the line forgot what an Antipaladin was. It was created in a Dragon Magazine issue and was the *exact opposite* of the Paladin.

The Paladin's brave.
The Anti's a coward.
The Paladin rocks a stand up fight.
The Anti relies on backstabbing and poison.
The Paladin is immune to disease.
The Anti is a plague bearer.

Instead, somewhere, a developer used the logic of a 10 year old and said, "I'm gonna make a super awesome bad guy you guys! An Antipaladin! Just like a Paladin but evil!"

And nobody had the guts to sit them down and say, "That word... Anti... It does not mean what you seem to think it means."


HWalsh wrote:

The advantage is with the Paladin.

The Anti-Paladin has the advantage if ToC hits and has the nauseated and/or stunned cruelty.

Even if he's using an intimidate build and can force a -2 onto the Paladin (who can do the same thing right back...) the save DC for an Anti at level 12 is 10+6+Charisma

Assuming they have similar charisma scores and the Paladin has *at least* a +2 con this means at level 12 he's got a +10 at least.

Realistically at this level he's getting an additional +2/3 and you're looking at someone who has to roll a 3-4 to succeed.

Then, unless the AP has a weapon to carry the ToC with attacks, the AP is burning their full attack every time they want to try to stick the ToC.

The biggest advantage the Paladin has is that without failing that roll they can swift action heal, and it means they're dealing damage to their enemy and probably out damaging and out healing.

Why? Most Pallies pack Fey Foundling. If they're running bracers of the merciful knight they're rocking (W greater mercy) at level 12 9d6+18 per LoH or 10d6+20 on a Heroic Defiance.

90% of the time these encounters become a war of attrition. The Paladin wins. 10% of the time the ToC sticks and the Paladin gets locked down.

If the antipaladin is doing an intimidate build he's probably got a -6 to saves before landing a touch of corruption. Shaken + Sickened (from Cruel) + Antipaladin Aura of Despair and will be using a conductive weapon to deliver the TOC.

It seriously all comes down to whether or not the antipaladin can land a TOC with Nauseated or Stunned. If the paladin fails to save he dies, if the paladin can succeed (probably two rounds) he wins.

I give an edge to the paladin, but it's not unwinnable for the antiapaldin, but it's a lot of RNG for the antipaladin.

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