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For example:
1d20+14 failure
1d4
1d6
1d20+14 success
1d4
4d6Hey look at that, after 2 tries and 5 hours the Nereid succeeded, but she only has 2 CON now.
Which kills her.
Seriously, the drop from Con 24 to Con 2 (that it's staggered over time makes no difference) means that she's losing 11 hit points per Hit Die. Being a 12 Hit Die creature, that's a loss of 132 hit points...against her 126 hit point total.
You always get at least one hit point per die, irrespective of your Constitution score (essentially, the penalty to hit points is bounded), so it won't kill her. Now, granted, reducing her hit points to 12 is going to make her very unhappy,..... but it won't kill her.
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Since then, I noticed that Paizo keeps (ab)using this 'Shawl Cliche', and I hoped this thread was helpful in *changing* this creative laziness...
To be honest, the creature is built to allow the shawl cliché (I'm French so I insist : never write cliché without é please !!), so I don't mind GM using it, as it's less morbid than other cliches on feys (like the someone-chumped-my-tree,-watch-me-dying dryad) and gives more opportunity for roleplay.
As I said, I didn't play all the adventures listed by the OP, but in the example I gave, the plot was really slim and nothing in the behaviour of the nereid suggested she felt a danger for her life or most importantly her mission ; 5 minutes after being freed and asking the PCs to recover her shawl, Evindra only cared for finding some quiet place where she could draw my character for a little kinky pause ...
The problem is not using the cliché, it's using it in a lazy way. If you put a nereid in an andventure, make it so for a dramatic scene, where the nereid really feels the threat on her life, not for just another fed-ex quest.
But as I said, if you do the math, nereids are hardly damsels in distress when their shawl is stolen.
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"Okay, so it might be a bit obvious, but stealing her shawl is like her whole deal!"
"Yeah, which is why she'll never be a popular challenge. Not like my 'vampire'."
"Yeah? Wait until someone decides they need to sparkle in sunlight. Betcha fifty groats."
"Hey, what about my idea for awesome multi-coloured horses that talk?"
"Nah, that'll never catch on. My 'centaur' is much better."
"Uh, dude, you do realise the 'centaur' has two rib cages, right? It looks stupid."
"Oh, I know, but hot manly torso plus horse? The chicks will love it."
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Can I ask—is the title of this thread a reference to something? It's giving me deja vu every time I see it.
You might be thinking of "he asked for a 13 but they drew a 31" from the Offspring's Pretty Fly for a White Guy. I know I did.
I think we just need a break from Nereids...
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Again:A nereid can flood the lungs of a willing, helpless, or fascinated creature by touching it (traditionally by kissing the creature on the lips). If the target cannot breathe water, it cannot hold its breath and immediately begins to drown. On its turn, the target can attempt a DC 23 Fortitude save to cough up this water; otherwise it falls unconscious at 0 hp. On the next round, the target must save again or drop to –1 hit points and be dying; on the third round it must save again or die (see Drowning). The save DC is Constitution-based.The Nereid can literally make water. And that's if they can't use Control Water to get it some other way.
It's not the first resort (presumably that's "seduce and murder the @#$% out of the idiot with the shawl"). But if the alternative is slavery (and all that entails) then taking the hit and making a new shawl is certainly not the last resort. Presumably the Nereid then hunts down a cleric of Calistria for some healing and eventually sweet, sweet vengeance.
This is assuming you have all these perfect conditions to do so.
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I think we just need a break from Nereids...
Who would want a nereid slave anyway? Dryads are way sexier, and satyrs and nymphs have way more useful powers. Even pixies have more utility, as invisible spotters and snipers.
It's like, 'Woo! I've got a nereid shawl! Crap. I just realized that means I now have a nereid...'
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I liked the 3.5 version. Lower CR (4) so more likely to meet them.
Plus, has LA 3 (and 3 HD) so playable back then at 6th.
Granted, the shawl is easier to reproduce in Pathfinder (Instant death since can't craft new one back in 3.5 if destroyed).
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Have you noticed that War of the River Kings, Island of Empty Eyes, The Frozen Stars, Breaking the Bones of Hell and Tombs of Golarion (and maybe more, I don't know... ) have something in common?
A very careless NEREID blackmailed into compliance (or otherwise imperiled) by the BBEG because of her *SHAWL*!
My dear developer(s), what were you thinking...? Does anyone here know WHY a nereid can't fit her soul inside her own body and needs a shawl to live? And WHY she's stuck with a hardness 2, hp 6 shawl instead of an iceberg, a 2-tons statue of Kelizandri or even just a mithral full plate of speed?OK Paizo, please have a word with the writers and just say NO to shawl abuse.
Actually there are tons of stories about these exact things.
They're called liches and deathknights. :D| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But what Greek tales described as unique monsters (Chimera, Medusa, I must be forgetting a few) became monster species in D&D, and stil are in PF.Greek tales are generally based on unique encounters rather than generic species of creatures. And given the variety of authors, bestiary-level of consistency generally occurred only by accident.Thetis (the mother of Achilles) must have found some way around this weakness. The only time she was ever defeated in combat was when Zeus helped a mortal subdue her. The technique used seemed to consist of maintaining a grapple until she ran out of uses of Wild Shape or some similar ability.
Your point in relationship to this thread being....? Also rembemer that the monsters in those tales are generally overcome by heroes that we'd describe as either fighters or bare knuckled brawlers. With the aid of occaisonal supernatural advice or toys. Or solely by their own wits.
What I was actually suggesting is that only a "standard" Nereid is at serious risk of losing her shawl. Advanced or higher level ones have ways to hide their shawls from people who would steal or destroy them. The technique involved could be as simple as a variation of the wizard spell for hiding a spellbook in an extraplanar space for retrieval any time in the next 24 hours.
What I was actually suggesting is that only a "standard" Nereid is at serious risk of losing her shawl. Advanced or higher level ones have ways to hide their shawls from people who would steal or destroy them. The technique involved could be as simple as a variation of the wizard spell for hiding a spellbook in an extraplanar space for retrieval any time in the next 24 hours.
Advanced or not, nereid can't do things such as stuff it in a pocket dimension, portable hole or any such nonsense. They need to WEAR them in order to use their powers. Because that's what they are.
Their vulnerability to shawl theft is INTEGRAL to their story concept. They DO have defenses though, which they can employ to effect if they are not caught off guard.
Most times when their shawl is stolen, it's through guile, not force. They're not intended to play combat monster roles, but as story encounters.
So the method used would have to involve disguising the shawl rather than storing it away then. Then, stealing the item that looks like a shawl might prove pointless, as she has actually made her shawl look like a different item of clothing.
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So the method used would have to involve disguising the shawl rather than storing it away then. Then, stealing the item that looks like a shawl might prove pointless, as she has actually made her shawl look like a different item of clothing.
Alternatively, wear something over the shawl so the shawl is hard to get at. After all, it's hard to steal my socks when I'm wearing shoes.
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Alternatively, wear something over the shawl so the shawl is hard to get at. After all, it's hard to steal my socks when I'm wearing shoes.So the method used would have to involve disguising the shawl rather than storing it away then. Then, stealing the item that looks like a shawl might prove pointless, as she has actually made her shawl look like a different item of clothing.
Hasn't stopped the dryer yet.
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I don't see a compelling need to make this change. Attempting to steal a Nereid's shawl isn't easy... and has potentially fatal consequences.
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I don't see a compelling need to make this change. Attempting to steal a Nereid's shawl isn't easy... and has potentially fatal consequences.
I have no issue if it's something the players decide to do on your own, but making it a plot point in a published adventure seems at this point, at least cliché.
Having a nereid who's a potential ally or potential antagonist whose shawl is unlikely to imperiled unless the PCs elect to do so seems like a more interesting use of that type of being.
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Considering ironwood is a thing, why not ironwood fullplate?
What I was actually suggesting is that only a "standard" Nereid is at serious risk of losing her shawl. Advanced or higher level ones have ways to hide their shawls from people who would steal or destroy them. The technique involved could be as simple as a variation of the wizard spell for hiding a spellbook in an extraplanar space for retrieval any time in the next 24 hours.
Generally, the basic nereid is actually a really hardcore monster - between their drowning kiss, poison touch or spray, transparancy, and ability to summon water elementals, most creatures that would be invested in acquiring their shawl for any reason are in extreme danger.
So the method used would have to involve disguising the shawl rather than storing it away then. Then, stealing the item that looks like a shawl might prove pointless, as she has actually made her shawl look like a different item of clothing.
Possible, but depending on the RAWyering, it might be too sketchy for some. If it's no longer a shawl, can it really count as a shawl...?
Advanced or not, nereid can't do things such as stuff it in a pocket dimension, portable hole or any such nonsense.
Why?
They need to WEAR them in order to use their powers. Because that's what they are.
Their vulnerability to shawl theft is INTEGRAL to their story concept. They DO have defenses though, which they can employ to effect if they are not caught off guard.
Most times when their shawl is stolen, it's through guile, not force. They're not intended to play combat monster roles, but as story encounters.
Is it integral, though? And even if it is - none of the hiding in other dimensions or holes or whatnot is actually "wrong" - point in fact, it's just as much cunning/being caught off guard as the other - no need to beat the nereid down when you can carefully research where and how she hides it, wait for her immediate attention to go elsewhere, and then work on acquiring it through magic and guile.
Bear in mind, I'm not saying it needs to be different from how it is - I like the concept and find it perfectly okay.
But I do think it could be interesting for a campaign to have that nereid - or to have something similar in an AP. Of course, if you really wanted to double down on the theme, you could even create unexpected or unusual groupings.
Point isn't that it has to be that way - in fact, the basic creature and myth is compelling and interesting - but it can be something to look at.
Though I'm challenging both sides, I'm not actually against either - I think both have valid concepts and elements. I don't find either interpretation necessary, but find both potentially compelling.
Keep on doing you, guys. Keep on doing you. :)
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I don't see a compelling need to make this change. Attempting to steal a Nereid's shawl isn't easy... and has potentially fatal consequences.I have no issue if it's something the players decide to do on your own, but making it a plot point in a published adventure seems at this point, at least cliché.
Having a nereid who's a potential ally or potential antagonist whose shawl is unlikely to imperiled unless the PCs elect to do so seems like a more interesting use of that type of being.
That's a problem with the adventure, not the creature.
Since then, I noticed that Paizo keeps (ab)using this 'Shawl Cliche', and I hoped this thread was helpful in *changing* this creative laziness...
To be honest, the creature is built to allow the shawl cliché (I'm French so I insist : never write cliché without é please !!), so I don't mind GM using it, as it's less morbid than other cliches on feys (like the someone-chumped-my-tree,-watch-me-dying dryad) and gives more opportunity for roleplay.
Kingmaker Spoiler:As I said, I didn't play all the adventures listed by the OP, but in the example I gave, the plot was really slim and nothing in the behaviour of the nereid suggested she felt a danger for her life or most importantly her mission ; 5 minutes after being freed and asking the PCs to recover her shawl, Evindra only cared for finding some quiet place where she could draw my character for a little kinky pause ...The problem is not using the cliché, it's using it in a lazy way. If you put a nereid in an andventure, make it so for a dramatic scene, where the nereid really feels the threat on her life, not for just another fed-ex quest.
But as I said, if you do the math, nereids are hardly damsels in distress when their shawl is stolen.
Bear in mind, I'm not saying you have a bad GM, rather I don't think she was really played up in the manner that you would have found her appropriate. For us, she was explicitly paranoid and frightened and felt (not experiencing the Condition, just the emotion) nauseated. She was even dubious at handing over such an important thing as that weapon - she was worried a bunch of rubes would be able to guard it well or use it properly.
Granted, she was worried about it in the way a chaotic neutral creature would be, i.e., "If you mess it up, what's going to keep me safe from my boss(es)?!" but she was still protective. In the end, she decided to entrust it to us because we showed her we were trustworthy, aided and assisted her, and explicitly bonded with her over time.
... and, you know, fey are kind of alien things. Perhaps a "kinky pause" as it were is exactly the way some nereids handle that kind of life-or-death stress... after all, she can (and probably would) totally murder most people who would be interested in such interactions and who would steal her shawl for that purpose by: touch, kiss, spray, summoned water elemental, or control of the water itself... water within which she is not only perfectly fine, but also invisible.
But that's just one possible interpretation. There are many.
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I mean, you're not going to have your RPG vampires be vulnerable to stakes, sunlight, decapitation, drowning, fire, silver, holy symbols, garlic, running water, counting, invitations,, aspen, oak, ash, maple, dogrose, wild rose, holly, juniper, millet, linden, mayflower, roses, lemon, rowan, wolfsbane, charcoal, werewolves, smashing mirrors, blood of dead things, blood of bats or rats or cats or snakes, starvation, the wrong emotions, sardine heads, soybeans, pumpkins, salt, and black dogs.
Even though you can find at least one story for each of those things where the undoing of a vampire is accomplished through those means. If you're setting up a game or a story then you need to pick and choose which aspects from folklore we want to use. So the question is "why have we chosen this one to be so central to this particular aspect of the nereid" or conversely "are there any other stories we can tell about nereids."
Well obviously, ever story about vampires in every culture prior to 2005 had vampires destroyed by all the things you list. Then Twighlight showed up and ruined it, and now people expect there to be differences between vampires in different works of fiction? Bah, everyone knows that before Twighlight, every vampire in every work of fiction functioned in exactly the same way and had exactly the same powers and vulnerabilities.
Nereid's have 22 wisdom but haven't reasoned that their shawl should be soaked in Tears Of Death or Black Lotus poison whilst also dealing cold damage to anything that touches it.
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they normally wear that shawl and are intelligent enough not to poison themselves
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Fey are literally immune to poison and cold.
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Given the time the shawl is going to spend in the water, I still don't think the poison tactic is practical as the poison would literally be washed away unless applied directly on exiting the water...
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My point was once luck is involved statistics take a back seat.
I take personal offence at this statement as a professional mathematician.
The whole purpose of statistics is to deal with phenomena in which chance is involved.
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Four rolls of 90. Four rolls of 20. And not a single 3. Explain that with your fancy-schmancy "math", smart guy.
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My point was once luck is involved statistics take a back seat.I take personal offence at this statement as a professional mathematician.
The whole purpose of statistics is to deal with phenomena in which chance is involved.
I chose "back seat" instead of "doesn't matter" for a reason.
You can use statistics to determine your chances, but not your outcome. You can say the AC is really low so you should hit really easy. And then you roll seven natural 1s in a row (seen it happen, main reason I put more stock in the dice than the statistics).
Given the time the shawl is going to spend in the water, I still don't think the poison tactic is practical as the poison would literally be washed away unless applied directly on exiting the water...
It's a pretty crazy idea but what if it was magical poison?? Yeah, it probably would be too far out for Pathfinder to deal with, nevermind then.
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I chose "back seat" instead of "doesn't matter" for a reason.
You can use statistics to determine your chances, but not your outcome. You can say the AC is really low so you should hit really easy. And then you roll seven natural 1s in a row (seen it happen, main reason I put more stock in the dice than the statistics).
This is a matter of perspective though, since it's equally valid to say that once luck is involved, statistics are ultimately the only thing that even applies.
Saying "don't use statistics to deal with matters of chance" is essentially saying "when luck is involved, don't bother thinking about it, just let whatever happens happen." Which I suppose is a valid way to look at a game involving dice, but it's perhaps not the most productive way.
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I chose "back seat" instead of "doesn't matter" for a reason.
You can use statistics to determine your chances, but not your outcome. You can say the AC is really low so you should hit really easy. And then you roll seven natural 1s in a row (seen it happen, main reason I put more stock in the dice than the statistics).
This is a matter of perspective though, since it's equally valid to say that once luck is involved, statistics are ultimately the only thing that even applies.
Saying "don't use statistics to deal with matters of chance" is essentially saying "when luck is involved, don't bother thinking about it, just let whatever happens happen." Which I suppose is a valid way to look at a game involving dice, but it's perhaps not the most productive way.
I'm not saying don't use them, I'm saying don't let them completely control you as if they were exact answers.
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100d100
Four rolls of 90. Four rolls of 20. And not a single 3. Explain that with your fancy-schmancy "math", smart guy.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ each of those has a nonzero chance of happening, especially "not a single 3" is at 36,6%
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I didn't ask for a buncha big numbers, buddy, I just want to know how you explain it!
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Considering ironwood is a thing, why not ironwood fullplate?
Because ironwood is a temporary transmutation
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Yeah, but nereids gotta be scantily clad because yadda yadda dudebros. If an attractive fey wore more than a form-fitting suit or set of loose robes, the game would be permanently ruined.
Also, "You do realize" is pretty patronizing. Maybe stay off that sort of tone.
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I don't think Nereids even have the naughty bits, outsiders don't have normal biology and don't procreate like humanoids do.
Feel free to correct me with pictures/diagrams/grappling threads etc.
You know, I was going to mention the half-fey template, but then I realized it's called "fey touched" in this edition ("half-fey" was the 3.X term), so that doesn't really help the case against, and even sorcerer "bloodlines" are not a surefire indicator, as those can be acquired in multiple ways.
That said, demonstrable proof exists that nymphs, at least, can have children in the most tragic way - the forlarren. Also many fey are named after something that has children in what we'd call the "normal" way.
Though clearly different from this mythological origins, we can reasonably extrapolate by virtue of their nature's and suggestions, that...
Ah, who am I kidding. LINKED
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Because ironwood is a temporary transmutationYou do realize Ironwood can be made permanent using the a permanency spell right? More, that Ironwood armour is actually something one can acquire.
Aside that a Nereid needs to access those spells, it's still susceptible to a Dispel Magic
I didn't ask for a buncha big numbers, buddy, I just want to know how you explain it!
Might as well admit it; math is a scam.