yes though 4 are at -3 and one is at -8 from a normal throw. Not like it usually matters for touch attacks, but they are pretty big penalties.
I don't think TWF applies here (assuming only bombs), you only ever have 1 bomb at a time. The action for throwing a bomb includes its creation. Other than that it looks correct.
If you have another weapon in your main hand then you will get to attack once with the bomb... i dont think that's what you're going for.
fast bomb allows you to make more then one bomb attack a round. but does not itself give you a bomb attack. you treat your bombs now like a normal thrown weapon for how many attacks you can get out of it
so because you have 3/4 base you get
3 from bab in the end
1 more from rapid shot
1 from haste
3 from all the two weapon fighting feats
= 8 bombs a turn at most,
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Again, TWF does not apply if you are using only bombs in your Full Attack
Bombs can be used with TWF. All throwing weapons can be used with TWF.
Not disputing that, I'm just saying that you can only ever have 1 bomb created at a time. You cannot wield two alchemist bombs at the same time because you cannot create a second bomb until after you have thrown the first one, therefore you cannot use TWF fighting with them only bombs.
If you have another weapon in addition to your bombs then it will apply but as i said earlier i don't think that is what the op is talking about.
EDIT: well you can have more than one bomb created at a time if you have the Delayed Bomb discovery, but that still doesn't allow you to wield 2 at a time since you have to throw the delayed bomb for it to work.
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Not disputing that, I'm just saying that you can only ever have 1 bomb created at a time. You cannot wield two alchemist bombs at the same time because you cannot create a second bomb until after you have thrown the first one, therefore you cannot use TWF fighting with
themonly bombs.If you have another weapon in addition to your bombs then it will apply but as i said earlier i don't think that is what the op is talking about.
There's an FAQ addressing this. They specifically say you CAN use TWF with fast bombs
I cannot find the rule limiting an alchemist to only having one bomb active at a time, the only limit I can find is that bombs must be used the round they are created. Could you point out where this rule is to be found?
There's an FAQ addressing this. They specifically say you CAN use TWF with fast bombsNot disputing that, I'm just saying that you can only ever have 1 bomb created at a time. You cannot wield two alchemist bombs at the same time because you cannot create a second bomb until after you have thrown the first one, therefore you cannot use TWF fighting with
themonly bombs.If you have another weapon in addition to your bombs then it will apply but as i said earlier i don't think that is what the op is talking about.
You can use it with other weapons yes. But you do not have the ability to have more than 1 bomb in your hands at any time, the act of throwing a bomb also creates the bomb, look at this other FAQ from the same page/book. They seem to be conflicting unless you realize that you only ever have 1 bomb in existence (delayed bomb notwithstanding) at a time.
Also look at the Bomb alchemist ability, the only thing Fast Bombs does is change it from a standard action to an attack action so you can full attack with it.
EDIT: Also note that Fast Bombs does not prevent you from provoking op attacks for throwing bombs, be sure to not do this in melee.
So you could technically make a thousand catalysts that only become bombs when infused with the alchemists magical essence. There is nothing to describe what that entails but i think its basically when the alchemist will the bomb to activate is does so and then six seconds later fizzles out if not detonated. rules wise they use the throw splash weapon action which is a single attack as a standard action and does not mention anything about being light or able to dual wield as none of that applies to a special standard action. Fast Bombs changes it from a special standard action to a full attack action, so now TWF, Rapid Shot, Haste etc. are on the table but we dont know (but basically everyone assumes) bombs are light weapons.
Yes there most definitely is something that describes what that entails, you just cut it off
In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb's minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage). Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist's level + the alchemist's Intelligence modifier.
Alchemists can learn new types of bombs as discoveries (see the Discovery ability) as they level up. An alchemist's bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else.
Ridiculon, the rules are ambiguous at best, is the drawing and creating of a bomb the same thing as mixing a catalyst? Arming bombs seems to be done with infusing magical essence into the catalyst which, as with extracts, is part of using the item, ie, less than even a free action or comparable to drawing a bowstring with firing an arrow. The thing is, there is nothing that says what kind of action it is to arm a bomb, from my reading of it even without fast bombs arming a catalyst is a "not an action". If you are going to attribute any kind of action to bombs other than willing them to explode and throwing them than Fast Bombs becomes way too hard to parse out, is it subject to GM limited free actions? Rapid Shot, Haste and high BAB means i am whipping out ingredients and mixing explosives and then chucking them out accurately in something like a second apiece, where do you draw the line?
1) yes, it is, as described in the rules "creating a bomb" means "swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs"
2) thats because "arming" the bomb is an extra step that you are adding, the order of the single action goes: get components -> use components to create bomb -> throw bomb
3) There is no line to be drawn, the ability includes all of these things as a single standard action, which you are then able to change to an attack action as part of a full attack. There is only one action that happens. It can happen multiple times in a turn but that does not stop it from being a single unit in and of itself.
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There's an FAQ addressing this. They specifically say you CAN use TWF with fast bombsNot disputing that, I'm just saying that you can only ever have 1 bomb created at a time. You cannot wield two alchemist bombs at the same time because you cannot create a second bomb until after you have thrown the first one, therefore you cannot use TWF fighting with
themonly bombs.If you have another weapon in addition to your bombs then it will apply but as i said earlier i don't think that is what the op is talking about.
You can use it with other weapons yes. But you do not have the ability to have more than 1 bomb in your hands at any time, the act of throwing a bomb also creates the bomb, look at this other FAQ from the same page/book. They seem to be conflicting unless you realize that you only ever have 1 bomb in existence (delayed bomb notwithstanding) at a time.
Also look at the Bomb alchemist ability, the only thing Fast Bombs does is change it from a standard action to an attack action so you can full attack with it.
** spoiler omitted **EDIT: Also note that Fast Bombs does not prevent you from provoking op attacks for throwing bombs, be sure to not do this in melee.
Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
Looks like you are wrong to me. The FAQ you cite doesn't apply as it is general (describing the action unmodified by fast bombs) and is trumped by the specific (the modification from fast bombs).
There's an FAQ addressing this. They specifically say you CAN use TWF with fast bombsNot disputing that, I'm just saying that you can only ever have 1 bomb created at a time. You cannot wield two alchemist bombs at the same time because you cannot create a second bomb until after you have thrown the first one, therefore you cannot use TWF fighting with
themonly bombs.If you have another weapon in addition to your bombs then it will apply but as i said earlier i don't think that is what the op is talking about.
You can use it with other weapons yes. But you do not have the ability to have more than 1 bomb in your hands at any time, the act of throwing a bomb also creates the bomb, look at this other FAQ from the same page/book. They seem to be conflicting unless you realize that you only ever have 1 bomb in existence (delayed bomb notwithstanding) at a time.
Also look at the Bomb alchemist ability, the only thing Fast Bombs does is change it from a standard action to an attack action so you can full attack with it.
** spoiler omitted **EDIT: Also note that Fast Bombs does not prevent you from provoking op attacks for throwing bombs, be sure to not do this in melee.
Looks like you are wrong to me. The FAQ you cite doesn't apply as it is general (describing the action unmodified by fast bombs) and is trumped by the specific (the modification from fast bombs).Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
The only thing the Fast Bomb's ability does is change the action type, it does not change what you actually do. How are you going from "create and throw a bomb as a standard action" to "create a bomb and then wait to throw it until you've created another bomb"?
The same way you can TWF with thrown daggers. All 4 or more of your daggers aren't in hand when you start, you draw them as you throw them. Thrown weapons work a little strange with TWF in that they don't need to be in hand, you just use different hands to throw and you designate beforehand what kind of weapons you'll be throwing. But they don't have to be in hand when you start.
like really. FAQ says it works, so it WORKS. The how is something you must come to terms with yourself.
But what stops an alchemist from making and throwing two at the same time?
But what stops an alchemist from making and throwing two at the same time?
What stops an alchemist from making and throwing 20 at the same time?
One is just as absurd as the other, its just a bigger number.
But what stops an alchemist from making and throwing two at the same time?What stops an alchemist from making and throwing 20 at the same time?
One is just as absurd as the other, its just a bigger number.
0) The limit of how many bombs you can make in a day.
1) The limit of how many attacks you can make in a round.2) hands, one hand can only work with one weapon at a time. So it's reasonable to assume that one hand works on one bomb just fine. So each of your two hands are working on one weapon at a time.
So if you feel it's absurd making a bomb with one hand then I don't think we can help you. BUT the rules are officially that you can TWF with bombs.
ok, lets go down the rabbit hole and ignore the FAQ explictly stating you can TWF with fast bombs and look at the steps to make a bomb. you hold that this is how it is done, "get components -> use components to create bomb -> throw bomb"
Reading through the same rules you would have to ignore this part, " In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years." which says you can pre-mix bombs leaving only the final infusing step to activate it. throughout the alchemist class it mentions how alchemists infuse magical essence into the things they do, this is part of using the items and not a stand alone action. so if you have no bombs premade you would follow your formula of "draw, mix, throw" if you have premixed bombs you just "draw, throw" these subactions are in the end all flavor to describe "standard action" Fast Bombs changes the standard action to full attack, full attack has its own rules about what can and cant modify the number of attacks. the subactions you use to describe the full attack can be what ever you wish but you are houseruling if you impose a limit below what a full attack would normally allow based on how you think it would look in your mind to create a magically infused grenade in the real world. We shouldnt be going this deep into the weeds to justify what the rules say about how magic, or demi-magic, works and trying to make that fit into real world dynamics.
1) I'm not ignoring that part, that is the component you are retrieving as part of the action (Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb). Obviously if you have not prepped your components for the day you cannot use an action that requires those components.
2) no, it does not say you can pre-mix bombs, it says you create the components of the bombs and those components last ad infinitum.
3) first of all its not "my" formula, that is the exact wording from the rule. Second you are trying to put words in my mouth. If you do not have the components for the action then you obviously cannot do the action.
4) yes full attack has its own rules about what can modify the attack. So does TWF, and TWF fighting says you need to be wielding two weapons to use it. The fact that the same action that creates a bomb also throws it means that you cannot wield two at the same time, and therefore TWF cannot apply to only bombs. TWF will still apply if you have a different weapon in hand and also use the bombs.
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4) yes full attack has its own rules about what can modify the attack. So does TWF, and TWF fighting says you need to be wielding two weapons to use it. The fact that the same action that creates a bomb also throws it means that you cannot wield two at the same time, and therefore TWF cannot apply to only bombs. TWF will still apply if you have a different weapon in hand and also use the bombs.
Again:
Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
No mention of bombs plus other weapons. Only discussing bombs.
I'm not disputing the FAQ, I'm saying that it is being read incorrectly in order to gain extra attacks where there shouldn't be any. TWF works with the bombs, its just that it does not work with only bombs, you in fact need a second weapon to TWF.
Lets look at the FAQ shall we?
posted August 2010
The FAQ is not asking about extra bomb attacks, it is only asking about extra attacks.
The response does not say that "you can TWF fight with only bombs", it says "yes [TWF] appl[ies] because fast bombs 'functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon'". Those are not equivalent statements.
Lets look at other ranged weapons since the FAQ specifically calls them out. Do you get to apply TWF while full attacking with a bow (do your arrows count as a second weapon to qualify for TWF)? Do you get to apply TWF if you only have a single dagger? Thats all I'm trying to point out. (Note, if you have quickdraw and multiple daggers that is not the same as having fast bombs since you can get out as many daggers at a time as you please whereas creating and throwing a bomb is a single action)
TWF will apply if you have a bomb in one hand and a sword/dagger in the other but it won't apply if you don't have a second weapon.
Lets look at other ranged weapons since the FAQ specifically calls them out. Do you get to apply TWF while full attacking with a bow? Do you get to apply TWF if you only have a single dagger? Thats all I'm trying to point out.
No, because you need to use two different hands, and two different weapons.Both can easily be done with bombs. There is nothing requiering you to have both weapons in your hands at the same time. You always make your attacks one after the other.
So, after the first attack, I draw the components, create, and throw another bomb with my other hand. Before I throw it, I'm wielding a weapon in my off-hand, i.e. I qualify for using the TWF portion of the attack rules.
Where are the rules preventing me from doing that?
Lets look at other ranged weapons since the FAQ specifically calls them out. Do you get to apply TWF while full attacking with a bow? Do you get to apply TWF if you only have a single dagger? Thats all I'm trying to point out.No, because you need to use two different hands, and two different weapons.Both can easily be done with bombs. There is nothing requiering you to have both weapons in your hands at the same time. You always make your attacks one after the other.
So, after the first attack, you draw the components, create, and throw another bomb with your other hand. Before I throw it, I'm wielding a weapon in my off-hand, i.e. I qualify for using the TWF portion of the attack rules.
Where are the rules preventing the character from doing that?
Um, yeah there is:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapons when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
If you are only wielding a single weapon it is never in your off hand, therefore the only way for you to be wielding a weapon in your off hand (as TWF requires) is to be wielding two weapons at the same time.
you are still making assumptions that a catalyst is not a ready to go bomb. components are components, they do not need to be prepared because if they were they would be completed things, not components of things. if you want to split hairs over words than there are a lot of hairs here to be split.
Why would you bother to make catalysts at all if you still needed to draw and mix them when you throw a bomb? the rules say most alchemists to this once a day, not that they have to do this to have them ready to mix further later.
And lets not forget that these are all still flavor descriptors for how magic works. its magic, it loses something when you have to scientifically break down everything. already its absurd in my mind to mix up more than one alchemical grenade and accurately throw it in less than a second but you can do that even without TWF. But i wouldnt limit a player based on what i think is absurd when the rules state that is actually how it works. its magic, they dont have to explain how it works.
Trying picturing the sequence differently in your mind. hold two vials in one hand, drop a reagent in each one, transfer one vial to the now open hand, throw vial one, use body twisting momentum from throw one to wind up throw two and then chuck that one, boom, you just TWF, Fast bombed.
The speed of accessing spell components is ridiculous already. opening a pouch, rummaging through this nonmagical pouch full of bat poop, mint leaves, rust dust, miniature shovels and pull out exactly what you need while also chanting something and focusing on that minotaur charging in at you. you need to let go of how long you think things take to get done and suspend the disbelief a bit.
You are the one who has an issue with how fast things are happening, I have no issue with it at all lol.
My issue is that you are trying to split a single action into multiple actions, which is a mistake at best and abuse at worst.
you are confusing how the real world works with how the game models hands and hands of efforts. if you use the TWF option with thrown weapons the requirements are that you have a free hands worth of effort to do so and a weapon to use in that off hand. There is no measurable action to activate a bomb, if it is willing it or drawing out 12 pieces and mixing them up it is still not an action, so as long as you have enough hands of effort to pay for your attack you get to make the attack.
Would you bar an alchemist from using bombs if they wielded a shield since they wouldnt have a free hand to mix anymore?
And again you are trying to put words in my mouth. I have no issue with an alchemist wielding shield and using bombs at the same time lol.
You are correct in saying there is no measurable action to "activate" a bomb, thats because it is not a thing you can do. The action you are looking for includes creating and throwing a bomb and it takes a standard action. You can reduce this to part of a full attack action if you have fast bombs.
You are again correct in saying that it does not have a hands of effort requirement, unfortunately this has nothing at all to do with what I've been saying.
you are still making assumptions that a catalyst is not a ready to go bomb. components are components, they do not need to be prepared because if they were they would be completed things, not components of things. if you want to split hairs over words than there are a lot of hairs here to be split.
Why would you bother to make catalysts at all if you still needed to draw and mix them when you throw a bomb? the rules say most alchemists to this once a day, not that they have to do this to have them ready to mix further later.
And lets not forget that these are all still flavor descriptors for how magic works. its magic, it loses something when you have to scientifically break down everything. already its absurd in my mind to mix up more than one alchemical grenade and accurately throw it in less than a second but you can do that even without TWF. But i wouldnt limit a player based on what i think is absurd when the rules state that is actually how it works. its magic, they dont have to explain how it works.
Trying picturing the sequence differently in your mind. hold two vials in one hand, drop a reagent in each one, transfer one vial to the now open hand, throw vial one, use body twisting momentum from throw one to wind up throw two and then chuck that one, boom, you just TWF, Fast bombed.
The speed of accessing spell components is ridiculous already. opening a pouch, rummaging through this nonmagical pouch full of bat poop, mint leaves, rust dust, miniature shovels and pull out exactly what you need while also chanting something and focusing on that minotaur charging in at you. you need to let go of how long you think things take to get done and suspend the disbelief a bit.
You are the one who has an issue with how fast things are happening, I have no issue with it at all lol.
My issue is that you are trying to split a single action into multiple actions, which is a mistake at best and abuse at worst.
I made an assumption that your view held throwing a bomb as multiple actions that required use of hands due to how you were arguing about needing to use hands in mixing bombs and when hands become empty when throwing things.
If you revert back to rules, the action under discussion is the "Full Attack Action" which is a span of time of about six seconds during which you can have your hands occupied or empty many times while throwing things. So when exactly are you unable to have an off hand's worth of effort to TWF with during a Full Attack Action?
Throwing a bomb is a single action, also included in that single action is the creation of the bomb. I have not ever said that it was multiple actions, that was you and only you. You are the only person in the whole thread that has expressed that opinion.
I am not now and have never been talking about hands of effort, that was you and only you. I am saying that it is not possible to Two-Weapon Fight with only one weapon. This is not an issue of number of hands of effort, it is an issue of number of weapons.
This thread got pretty ridiculous, no pun intended.
The act of making a bomb requires only one hand. This is proven not only by the lack of words stating you need a hand free, but also that the FAQ specifically mentions TWF as okay, something that implies your offhand can be busy with another weapon and you can still toss bombs. Therefore, we can assess from this that bombs are one handed thrown weapons.
For using bombs, we know you have to throw it in the same round you activate it. So, with one hand, the Alchemist can retrieve the catalyst, activate it to make it a bomb (using whatever circumstances that requires), and then throw it, all without using his other hand. This takes a standard action typically, but if you have Fast Bombs, then you have the ability to do it faster. (Perhaps the alchemist discovered a way to activate the catalysts through a simpler method, such as squeezing it tightly).
So, what is the other hand doing? Since you can retrieve catalysts, turn them into bombs, and then throw them all with one hand, what keeps an alchemist with Fast Bombs from doing the same thing with his offhand as he is with his mainhand? There aren't any rules about how many bombs you can have active simultaneously, only how long they can last.
And if the act of throwing a bomb is as simple as throwing a dagger, something the alchemist has clearly been practicing how to do due to having taken the feat and the discovery, then throwing a bomb with an offhand is as simple as throwing a dagger with an offhand.
EDIT:
This is not an issue of number of hands of effort, it is an issue of number of weapons.
And this isn't coming up as a hindrance. One bomb is one weapon. You are not throwing the exact same bomb multiple times, you are throwing multiple bombs. Each bomb is an individual weapon, just as each dagger is an individual weapon.
So is your stance that fast bombs allows only one bomb thrown and then all iterative, Rapid Shot, Haste, TW, et al. attacks must be made with non bomb weapons?you are confusing how the real world works with how the game models hands and hands of efforts. if you use the TWF option with thrown weapons the requirements are that you have a free hands worth of effort to do so and a weapon to use in that off hand. There is no measurable action to activate a bomb, if it is willing it or drawing out 12 pieces and mixing them up it is still not an action, so as long as you have enough hands of effort to pay for your attack you get to make the attack.
Would you bar an alchemist from using bombs if they wielded a shield since they wouldnt have a free hand to mix anymore?
And again you are trying to put words in my mouth. I have no issue with an alchemist wielding shield and using bombs at the same time lol.
You are correct in saying there is no measurable action to "activate" a bomb, thats because it is not a thing you can do. The action you are looking for includes creating and throwing a bomb and it takes a standard action. You can reduce this to part of a full attack action if you have fast bombs.
You are again correct in saying that it does not have a hands of effort requirement, unfortunately this has nothing at all to do with what I've been saying.
No that is not my stance, as anyone who actually reads what I have posted above will realize. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.
Saethori, to me that would make sense in the real world, but the rules don't let two actions happen at the same time.
If it was a weapon by itself then that would work, but since it is an action that creates and then destroys the weapon, and actions cannot happen simultaneously, then the weapon does not exist by the time the next action happens. (ergo you cannot ever be wielding two at the same time)
But what stops an alchemist from making and throwing two at the same time?
Needing two hand to mix his bombs and not necessarily having a vestigial arm or prehensile tail to hold the first while mixing the second?
No that is not my stance, as anyone who actually reads what I have posted above will realize. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.So is your stance that fast bombs allows only one bomb thrown and then all iterative, Rapid Shot, Haste, TW, et al. attacks must be made with non bomb weapons?you are confusing how the real world works with how the game models hands and hands of efforts. if you use the TWF option with thrown weapons the requirements are that you have a free hands worth of effort to do so and a weapon to use in that off hand. There is no measurable action to activate a bomb, if it is willing it or drawing out 12 pieces and mixing them up it is still not an action, so as long as you have enough hands of effort to pay for your attack you get to make the attack.
Would you bar an alchemist from using bombs if they wielded a shield since they wouldnt have a free hand to mix anymore?
And again you are trying to put words in my mouth. I have no issue with an alchemist wielding shield and using bombs at the same time lol.
You are correct in saying there is no measurable action to "activate" a bomb, thats because it is not a thing you can do. The action you are looking for includes creating and throwing a bomb and it takes a standard action. You can reduce this to part of a full attack action if you have fast bombs.
You are again correct in saying that it does not have a hands of effort requirement, unfortunately this has nothing at all to do with what I've been saying.
I am trying to clarify what you are saying because i can not parse what you have saying in terms that make sense with what the rules say. i do not mean to insult or put down, i am trying to use as simple terms as i can to find where the nature of your stance comes from.
1 bomb = standard action.
discovery adds a new option to use bombs in a full attack. with this discovery the old...
The issue is that you are thinking that the bombs exist before the alchemist uses his ability. That is incorrect, the bombs only exist once the alchemist has used his ability, and since the ability ends with them not existing anymore you cannot use two at the same time.
But what stops an alchemist from making and throwing two at the same time?Needing two hand to mix his bombs and not necessarily having a vestigial arm or prehensile tail to hold the first while mixing the second?
I think i see where I am differing from everyone else here. Creating and throwing a bomb is a single action (weather it is a standard or an attack in a full-attack action does not matter), the action ends in the bomb not existing anymore (a lot like ray attacks). While it exists it is a weapon (a lot like rays), the issue is that because actions do not happen simultaneously you cannot ever have more than one bomb at a time, since creating them also destroys them (unlike rays where you can create multiple with the same action). While they exist they count as weapons, so feats that apply to weapons will apply to bombs (like rays). TWF will apply to bombs, but you cannot have more than one bomb at a time, so you need a second weapon to benefit from TWF.
Saethori, to me that would make sense in the real world, but the rules don't let two actions happen at the same time.
If it was a weapon by itself then that would work, but since it is an action that creates and then destroys the weapon, and actions cannot happen simultaneously, then the weapon does not exist by the time the next action happens. (ergo you cannot ever be wielding two at the same time)
You can definitely do two actions at the same time. That's literally what Two Weapon Fighting is. You are attacking with one weapon in your left hand at the same time you are attacking with a different weapon in your right hand.
Any use of "it's an action that creates and destroys the weapon" as a ruling shuts down wielding bombs alongside any other weapon, too, something you have yourself stated was possible and is declared as possible by the FAQ.
And certainly, you can absolutely have two at the same time. Again, there are no rules specifying an arbitrary limitation on how many you can have at once. If both hands are moving at the same speed, then both bombs will be ready to throw simultaneously. Otherwise, one can simply state the offhand is slightly slower, which fits well with the narrative of the offhand getting fewer attacks.
You have two hands. In each hand, you can retrieve a catalyst, form it into a bomb, and throw it, all without requiring aid from the other hand. This isn't juggling firearms here, it's following the benefits the Fast Bombs discovery specifically gives you, which is something the alchemist studied so they could accomplish exactly this.
EDIT:
TWF will apply to bombs, but you cannot have more than one bomb at a time, so you need a second weapon to benefit from TWF.
Yes. A second weapon. Like a different bomb.
Look, this is much like elemental annihilator kineticists and them TWF with weapons they make at the time of the attack. Or throwing daggers that aren't in hand at start of the attack. Or the warlock vigilante that creates magic bolts that are made at the time of the attack and don't exist outside of the attack but he can TWF with them.
Many classes and abilities that behave similarly to bombs lets you TWF with them. Heck you seem to have no problem using 3 bombs to TWF as a primary weapon, even though none of them are wielded at start of full attack.
Like it seems you only care they they don't exist at the start of the full attack for the off hand of TWF but totally are okay with them not existing for the main hand attacks. Or lets swap. It also seems like you'd be okay with me having a dagger as main hand and bombs as my off hand? But the moment we go to use bombs in both is when you're having an issue of them not being wielded at the start of the TWF full attack.
Creating a mystic bolt requires the hand to be free, but the bolt appears only briefly, so a warlock using mystic bolts has a free hand any time she isn't attacking with a mystic bolt.
You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. Since it's part of another action (and isn't an action itself)
If she makes only melee attacks with her flurry of devastation, she can use the Two-Weapon Fighting feats
Saethori that is not what two weapon fighting is. Two Weapon fighting allows you to add an extra attack to your full attack, full attacks are made in order:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Chess Pwn The warlock's ability specifically calls out that it may be used with itself for TWF. That is an exception to the rule, one that does not include alchemist bombs.
The Kineticist ability is also different, the blade you form exists until the end of your turn and does not run into the issue of not existing between actions.