Fencing Grace + Precise Strike (swashbuckler deed)+Cayden Cailean's Blade and Tankard


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

Fencing Grace (Combat):
Your dashing style and fluid rapier forms allow you to use agility rather than brute force to fell your foes.
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (rapier).
Benefit(s): When wielding a rapier one-handed, you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The rapier must be one appropriate for your size. You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or anytime another hand is otherwise occupied.
In addition, if you have the panache class feature, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMD against attempts to disarm you of your rapier while you have at least 1 panache point.
and
Precise Strike (Ex) (swashbuckler deed, 3rd level):
At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat).
and
Cayden Cailean's Blade and Tankard:

Source Weapon Master's Handbook pg. 11
Cayden Cailean is famous for wading into battle with a tankard in his off hand.
Optional Replacement: A chaotic good fighter or swashbuckler who worships Cayden Cailean can replace proficiency with shields or bucklers with the following initial benefit.
Initial Benefit: You can wield a tankard (or mug) as a weapon, treating it in all ways as a light mace appropriate for your size. If you engage in two-weapon fighting with a rapier or light weapon in one hand and a tankard in the other, you can drink a potion or other liquid from the tankard or attempt to toss liquid from the tankard as a dirty trickAPG combat maneuver (such as to blind a foe) in place of attacking with it. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for attempting a dirty trick maneuver with a tankard.

I really want those three abilities to work together, and fankly, I kinda see the tankard in the off-hand as working similarly to a Swordmaster’s flair (a tankard is the ULTIMATE piece of flair for Caydenites...)

Do those all work together, or is the Blade and Tankard style a huge waste of time for a Swashbuckler?

Silver Crusade Contributor

Sadly, I'm pretty sure it won't work.

I built a phantom thief to use that style instead. ^_^

Sovereign Court

(by strict reading of the abilities, Precise Strike + Blade and Tankard can work together when you're not attacking with the mug i.e. drinking from it; however, the revised wording of Fencing Grace in Ultimate Intrigue seems to be a show stopper for that feat...)

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The Two-Weapon Grace feat (from Villain Codex) would allow you to use fencing grace while also attacking with (or drinking from) the tankard.

Silver Crusade Contributor

CBDunkerson wrote:
The Two-Weapon Grace feat (from Villain Codex) would allow you to use fencing grace while also attacking with (or drinking from) the tankard.

Could you post a more thorough explanation of the feat, please? I don't have access to that text yet. ^_^


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
The Two-Weapon Grace feat (from Villain Codex) would allow you to use fencing grace while also attacking with (or drinking from) the tankard.
Could you post a more thorough explanation of the feat, please? I don't have access to that text yet. ^_^

Does this help?

Silver Crusade Contributor

Gisher wrote:
Does this help?

Indeed. Thank you! ^_^

Sovereign Court

AWESOME... buying book now

Sovereign Court

darn... not available until Wed... :P


Kalindlara wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Does this help?
Indeed. Thank you! ^_^

You are welcome.

Sovereign Court

thanks Gisher!

Sovereign Court

CBDunkerson wrote:
The Two-Weapon Grace feat (from Villain Codex) would allow you to use fencing grace while also attacking with (or drinking from) the tankard.

Thank you Sir! great find!

Sovereign Court

TWF with Slashing Grace incurs:

-4 primary hand / -4 off-hand

and yields

+dexdmg primary hand / +dexdmg*0.5 off-hand

Correct?

Have some of you used it or are the penalties considered too steep?

Edit: and how would you further reduce penalties back to -2/-2? the feat has the following sentence: "you can’t decrease the penalties to less than –2 even if other abilities would reduce the penalties further"


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
and how would you further reduce penalties back to -2/-2? the feat has the following sentence: "you can’t decrease the penalties to less than –2 even if other abilities would reduce the penalties further"

Possessed Hand -> Hand's Autonomy drops the penalties by 2, minimum -1. Depending on your reading of it, and with Possessed Hand's +1, you'd be at -1/-2 hit (because it's still -2, you just have a +1 as well) instead of -2/-2.

Sovereign Court

Fun! Feat heavy but fun!

Sovereign Court

Two-Weapon Grace, Villain Codex, p.224:

This feat allows Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace and Starry Grace to work with TWF. It even grants half dex mod to dmg with the off-hand. Was the intent to also allow Precise Strike swashbuckler ability? My opinion is yes, as this is clearly a swashbuckler oriented feat so all deeds should work with it, but I'm not sure my opinion is in accordance to the RAW.

I'm worried that the feat cuts off access to Precise Strike, which is one of the main swashbuckler deed.

Sovereign Court

Nevermind I think I figured it out: divine blade and tankard lets you do stuff with the tankard 'in place of attacking with it', which is by RAW all you need to enable Precise Strike.


You know, the feat has "this is for Swashbucklers" built into the text, but it's really not easy to get it to actually work for swashbucklers

Sovereign Court

Fencing Grace has "In addition, if you have the panache class feature, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMD against attempts to disarm you of your rapier while you have at least 1 panache point."

Slashing Grace has "When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) "

Starry Grace has "In addition, if you have the panache class feature, as long as you have at least 1 panache point, you gain a +5 bonus to your movement speed on your move action after taking an attack action with a starknife or on your Spring Attack or charge with a starknife."

Two-Weapon Grace has "You can gain the benefits of the Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace, or Starry Grace feats [...]"

So yeah, I'm thinking this feat was perhaps intended with swashbuckler in mind... those feats all have swashbuckler applications.


Oh, I meant Blade and Tankard style because of the "CG Fighters and Swashbucklers can trade their shield/buckler proficiency for this" clause.

For something to really work for swashbucklers, it should at least not irrevocably conflict with precise strike and [whatever] grace.

Sovereign Court

Yes, I know... very hard to pull off with a swashbuckler. So far the way I'm doing it requires:

Weapon Finesse (free at 1st)
Weapon Focus (1st)
Fencing Grace (3rd)
TWF (4th)
TWG (5th)

...and we're skipping Agile Maneuvers for the beer throwing Dirty Trick because blade and tankard says you're 'tossing it', thus we're houseruling it's using DEX to CMB instead of STR. STR would make zero sense here as it's similar to dousing an enemy with a liquid which uses a ranged touch attack roll (i.e. rules for holy water vs. incorporeal foes, i.e. "you can douse an incorporeal creature with holy water only if you are adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.")

The section on Combat Maneuvers also has this, "When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. "

Dirty Trick in itself actually makes little sense in using it with STR, but that's another thread entirely, and I just want to focus on tossing beer in people's faces at this point.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The light mace, being a light weapon, should already work with weapon finesse so combat maneuvers that are executed with the tankard shouldn't need agile maneuvers. That's not really a houserule so much as the rule.

Generally the GM has to adjudicate whether a "dirty trick accomplished via a weapon" is legitimate (e.g. "I want to scratch them lightly across their forehead so they bleed in their eyes" as a dirty trick with a rapier is borderline, since if you can hit there, why aren't they dead?) but when the text of the feat says "you use [weapon] to do [maneuver]" it's pretty clear.

Sovereign Court

Good catch. I was forgetting about that light mace clause. Thank you!

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Fencing Grace + Precise Strike (swashbuckler deed)+Cayden Cailean's Blade and Tankard All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.