This is just an idea I've had. I need help fleshing out the details.
You know all those people who say class x can beat all other classes? Here's their chance to "prove" it (or at least get bragging rights until the next contest.)
I'm picturing starting a contest where each contestant makes a build and faces off against each other in a series of duels.
The winner of each duel goes to the next round of duels against the other winners of the previous duels. Ultimately, the two best contestants face off against each other for the title.
Of course, it won't perfectly settle the argument. It would at best only show what build has an edge in one-on-one dueling. And there would be a great deal of luck involved. And the issue of finding impartial GMs to referee.
What do you think? Is it possible?
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Nope.
You could do it as a play by post on the forums here.
St00ji is correct that the interpretations is going to be difficult.
Furthermore the parameters of the battles is going to have an immense impact. Most builds shine if certain circumstances is present, and is build to face challenges in a certain way. A simple consideration is the range between the combatants, which will have a tremendous effect on the outcome between a melee fighter and an archer.
Of course it's possible. You'll only need the following:
2 obnoxious "experts" for each class.
A set of spells/weapons that the specific class always uses.
Several blood-filled pig corpses for weapon/spell testing.
An awesome, overblown, over the top, Live-action dramatization (should be easy, get a few LARPers).
Lastly, Spike TV to muck everything up.
/End Snark
In all due seriousness it sounds like a feasible idea but I think it goes without saying that Spellcasters should probably duel other spellcasters and non-casters should duel non-casters. Cleric vs Witch, Summoner vs Wizard, Barbarian vs Fighter, Rogue vs Monk, etc so on.
Of course it's possible. You'll only need the following:
2 obnoxious "experts" for each class.
A set of spells/weapons that the specific class always uses.
Several blood-filled pig corpses for weapon/spell testing.
An awesome, overblown, over the top, Live-action dramatization (should be easy, get a few LARPers).
Lastly, Spike TV to muck everything up./End Snark
Don't forget, each weapon/spell must be tested exactly once on the corpse, bey somebody who isnt even that class and no matter the outcome that will be used as the average expected damage value of the weapon. Except sometimes when something is arbitrarily allowed to be tested several times.
I just ran some guy off the street through a test where I told him to cast magic missle on a dead pig. The computer just kept saying "invalid spell" and "invalid target". The guy was also confused. This is going to be tougher than I thought!
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On the subject of consistent circumstances, should every class be a specific race?
When you look at it, a Human can be just about anything with the right build. At the same time, an Elf is probably better suited for a Wizard than a Barbarian.
Next challenge would be making it an equal match. Sure, you can send a Paladin and a Fighter against each other, but the problem lies in that the Fighter may have spent more money on his +2 Adamantine Breastplate than his MW Longsword. The Paladin, on the other hand, may just be wearing MW Full Plate, but the rest of his funding went into his +2 Holy Axiomatic Longsword (he calls it Killer).
Which bring up another question: What level and how much money are they gonna start with/at?
I think a good way to have at least a few of these Deadliest Pathfinders is to use the Pregens provided. Highest level should work out somewhat. We don't want a super powered showdown unless we want to go to a rules debate on whether or not Adamantine prevents you from swimming in a man made hole or something.
Where's AM BARBARIAN when you need him...
The show would last approximately 59 seconds before AM BARBARIAN would be bored of talky man and RAGELANCEPOUNCE the pig, the host, all the live action dramatization actors, the "experts", and the cameraman. None of the tests would ever be concluded due to the Barbarian never getting a full episode without a 59 second timelimit.
On the German boards we do that kind of stuff like this:
Making a build, explaining it, sending it to the GM and he just plays both builds against each other at their best.
Where's AM BARBARIAN when you need him...The show would last approximately 59 seconds before AM BARBARIAN would be bored of talky man and RAGELANCEPOUNCE the pig, the host, all the live action dramatization actors, the "experts", and the cameraman. None of the tests would ever be concluded due to the Barbarian never getting a full episode without a 59 second timelimit.
The errata already explained that rage-lance-pounce will not work.
So far I am thinking:
- 10th level characters
- Standard Wealth By Level
- Core Rulebook, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, and Advanced Player's Guide only
- 20 point buy
- Use the same map as the battlefield for everybody (not sue which one)
Would making it PFS rules prevent those, shall we say, creative rules interpretations?
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Where's AM BARBARIAN when you need him...The show would last approximately 59 seconds before AM BARBARIAN would be bored of talky man and RAGELANCEPOUNCE the pig, the host, all the live action dramatization actors, the "experts", and the cameraman. None of the tests would ever be concluded due to the Barbarian never getting a full episode without a 59 second timelimit.The errata already explained that rage-lance-pounce will not work.
Now explain that to AM BARBARIAN in 59 seconds or less.
So far I am thinking:
- 10th level characters
- Standard Wealth By Level
- Core Rulebook, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, and Advanced Player's Guide only
- 20 point buy
- Use the same map as the battlefield for everybody (not sue which one)
Would making it PFS rules prevent those, shall we say, creative rules interpretations?
10 is not a good level to go with honestly. 11 isnt either. You could go with 12 or 13.
You need rules for consumable, rules for preparation time, a fairly shaped arena, frequency of fights (all at the same day or 1/day?) and probably some more stuff to make it work.
I'll do the announcing.
"Oh man did you totally see that guy's head come apart?! He totally gave it 110% and really laid it all out there, I mean, until his head came apart."
A couple of years ago a guy did something like this for 3.5 at a game store. It was supposed to be a repeating thing that tested different levels; first week level 2s, next 4s, and so on.
He dealt with your "circumstance issue" mentioned earlier by having many different maps that were randomly fought on. One you started far away from each other in the woods, another you were inside a series of tunnels in a mine, another you were on a medium sized boat, and so on. Two rounds of buff were allowed prior to the fight.
This was really fun, but it was short lived as the guy running it got deported. What made it hard was not knowing exactly how how your opponent was built and just trusting that the GM and opponent were doing it right. One guy was effing up the sniping rules for a long time but luckily he couldn't hit me, after I looked them up and was able to see him I made short work of him. In another case that was done right, my opponent had deathless rage and I didn't know it, I was doing the math and thought he must be down but he just wasn't dropping. Had I known he was living on borrowed time, I would have just jumped off the boat into the water and waited for his time to run out.
Where's AM BARBARIAN when you need him...The show would last approximately 59 seconds before AM BARBARIAN would be bored of talky man and RAGELANCEPOUNCE the pig, the host, all the live action dramatization actors, the "experts", and the cameraman. None of the tests would ever be concluded due to the Barbarian never getting a full episode without a 59 second timelimit.The errata already explained that rage-lance-pounce will not work.
How was that ragelancepunce build supposed to work anyway, even if pounce allowed iterative attacks on the charge? It's not like you get anything special from the lance (it only doubles its damage when wielded from the back of a charging mount).
"Man, you could cut this tension with a knife!"
"Looks like that rogue just cut that Wizard with a knife, Lamontius!"
I need a color commentator.
How was that ragelancepunce build supposed to work anyway, even if pounce allowed iterative attacks on the charge? It's not like you get anything special from the lance (it only doubles its damage when wielded from the back of a charging mount).Where's AM BARBARIAN when you need him...The show would last approximately 59 seconds before AM BARBARIAN would be bored of talky man and RAGELANCEPOUNCE the pig, the host, all the live action dramatization actors, the "experts", and the cameraman. None of the tests would ever be concluded due to the Barbarian never getting a full episode without a 59 second timelimit.The errata already explained that rage-lance-pounce will not work.
1. Developers clarified you do get the iterative on a pounce.
2. They also clarified that the extra damage would only come from the first attack. So no extra damage on iteratives.
3. They however have not clarified whether or not you can pounce from horseback which is the new "issue" to my knowledge.
In any case AM BARBARIAn is not awesome purely because of this gimmick.
So far I am thinking:
- 10th level characters
- Standard Wealth By Level
- Core Rulebook, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, and Advanced Player's Guide only
- 20 point buy
- Use the same map as the battlefield for everybody (not sue which one)
Would making it PFS rules prevent those, shall we say, creative rules interpretations?
I would say use PFS rules, strict PFS RAW, and level 10 seems like a reasonable level. Moving it higher will benefit spellcasters too much. That and frankly I don't care about play above level 12 because the game gets too wonky at that level, which is why PFS limits normal modules to level 11 and below.
I would pick one of the paizo maps randomly and place them 45 or so feet away.
then do level 8. 10 is a bad choice. But this is not representative anyway because the results will be diferent depending on the level.
So no synth-summoners?
Or Vivisectionists or people of an evil alignment.
If I were an Anti-PAladin. I'd riot.
But I'd probably do that anyway.
Seriously. The problem is that in pathfinder the offensive potential of a character can increase from one level to the next by like 50%, so you cannot pick 4 different stages (5, 10, 15 and 20) to see what class is best because this for example will ALWAYS make full-BAB less powerful compared to 3/4 BAB'lers then they actually are.
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Here is my idea
Deadliest Warrior (Pathfinder Edition)
3 battles. Best 2 out of three wins the title of ultimate warrior.
All battles are fought in the arena.
20th level character (what is deadlier) (can be any mix of classes whose combined levels total 20)
Standard Wealth By Level using NPC table(Using Heroic) (total:123,000 gp - Weapons: 40,000 gp - Protection:35,000 gp - Magic:35,000 gp - Limited use:11,000 gp - Gear:2,000 gp)
Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic
20 point attribute buy
I made a post on my site with all the relavent ideas and topics. will try out these rules tonight and see how well they work. I also created an arena I will be trying out tonight.
Not sure about 20th level since battles can go on pretty long But all classes gain various abilities at 4th, 9th 15th and 20th level. 9th level is good. you will have received your 5th feat and 3rd attribute raise and second major ability. 16th level has 8th feat and 4th attribute raise and second to last major power kick in.
I think 9th or 20th, although 20th would have the least arguments since it gives all the abilities of every class and race.
Okay let's determine the deadliest class.
But no Summoners, because they're wayyyy too powerful.
I'm really looking forward to the results!
level 20, 100k WBL? what the heck?
And using capstone abilities is not the best idea if this should show anything.
Okay let's determine the deadliest class.
But no Summoners, because they're wayyyy too powerful.
I'm really looking forward to the results!
A. Isnt the whole point to find the deadliest class? Whats the point of doing it at all if you ban the class you THINK is the deadliest class. You just negated the whole experiment.
B. Your wrong about Summoners.
That is all.
*whoooooooooshhhhhhhhh*
"Sarcasm is lost in print."
--John Cryer
Here is my idea
Deadliest Warrior (Pathfinder Edition)3 battles. Best 2 out of three wins the title of ultimate warrior.
All battles are fought in the arena.
20th level character (what is deadlier) (can be any mix of classes whose combined levels total 20)
Standard Wealth By Level using NPC table(Using Heroic) (total:123,000 gp - Weapons: 40,000 gp - Protection:35,000 gp - Magic:35,000 gp - Limited use:11,000 gp - Gear:2,000 gp)
Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic
20 point attribute buy
I made a post on my site with all the relavent ideas and topics. will try out these rules tonight and see how well they work. I also created an arena I will be trying out tonight.
Not sure about 20th level since battles can go on pretty long But all classes gain various abilities at 4th, 9th 15th and 20th level. 9th level is good. you will have received your 5th feat and 3rd attribute raise and second major ability. 16th level has 8th feat and 4th attribute raise and second to last major power kick in.
I think 9th or 20th, although 20th would have the least arguments since it gives all the abilities of every class and race.
The only thing I would add...
There should be 5 or 6 very different arena's. Each has different hazards and obstacles.
1. A set Oval Platforms suspeneded at varing distances and hights over a void or lava.
2. Forest.
3. Flat normal arena.
4. A City
5. Two large ships across from each other (npc pirates on each fighting each other, but otherwise ignoring the PCs) out in the open seas.
Each round the DM would roll randomly to see which arena they fight in. That way each character has to plan for varied senarios.
*whoooooooooshhhhhhhhh*
"Sarcasm is lost in print."
--John Cryer
Riiiiight. Of course it was Sarcasm. :P
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6 arenas best since it's just a die roll.
6th can be a mixed arena or full of pillars to be fought around.
a flat open arena instantly kills the rogues. there is no where for them to setup to backstab. There is also a lack of spells, smoke bombs or other items to help them get into position.
What basic elements needs to be in each arena?
here are a few thoughts:
Broken line of sight, for rogues, melee fighters.
Grass or hedge for druids and other plant animation tricks.
Various heights for flight, acrobatics, climb to be shown off.
??
a flat open arena instantly kills the rogues. there is no where for them to setup to backstab. There is also a lack of spells, smoke bombs or other items to help them get into position.
Then why not use some of that WBL to bring smoke bombs or other items that might help? Hell, you could give them UMD and scrolls if you want to let them try setting things up.
If this is to see how classes do across a wide range of scenarios, a flat open arena is a valid possibility, and certainly just as important to the results. Different classes will obviously perform better or worse depending on the area, but that's something that needs to be factored in for consideration.
6 arenas best since it's just a die roll.
6th can be a mixed arena or full of pillars to be fought around.
a flat open arena instantly kills the rogues. there is no where for them to setup to backstab. There is also a lack of spells, smoke bombs or other items to help them get into position.
What basic elements needs to be in each arena?
here are a few thoughts:
Broken line of sight, for rogues, melee fighters.
Grass or hedge for druids and other plant animation tricks.
Various heights for flight, acrobatics, climb to be shown off.
??
Well thats the point. Each arena should play off different types of battle field. Each giving advantages or disadvantages to different classes.
Maybe the 6th could be a Dark fog shrouded arena... perfect for the rogues and such.... to off set the open arena.
Forest would be good for rogues
The ships would be good for the rogues... they could hide in the crouds of pirates (who again don't actually attack the PCs... they are there for effect mainly.)
City would be good for rogues.
So having one arena that points at their one weakness is a good deal. Open combat.
a flat open arena instantly kills the rogues. there is no where for them to setup to backstab. There is also a lack of spells, smoke bombs or other items to help them get into position.Then why not use some of that WBL to bring smoke bombs or other items that might help? Hell, you could give them UMD and scrolls if you want to let them try setting things up.
If this is to see how classes do across a wide range of scenarios, a flat open arena is a valid possibility, and certainly just as important to the results. Different classes will obviously perform better or worse depending on the area, but that's something that needs to be factored in for consideration.
Exactly. Chargers like Barbs and Fighters would suffer on the ship and the platform but excel at the Open arena. Archers would suffer in the Forrest or Dark/fog arena, but excel at the ship and and platforms. Ect.
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Exactly. Chargers like Barbs and Fighters would suffer on the ship and the platform but excel at the Open arena. Archers would suffer in the Forrest or Dark/fog arena, but excel at the ship and and platforms. Ect.
Ah I get you. An underdark themed arena could be the 6th. completely dark with stalactites etc.
Should also be an indoor arena where there is a ceiling to deal with. a fireball in confined spaces would be just as deadly to the wizard. So a maze or interconnected rooms and 10' ceiling.
So, some map ideas:
Mazey dungeon
Forest
Crowded city street
Sailing Ship
Mountain (rough terrain, boulders and cliffs and crap)
Open Plain
Then, I think you should roll for time of day and weather. And probably do a two out of three, each time in a different setting.
So... a thought on how this could work.
We get the builds. We get the arenas.
They can do some regular preparation beforehand. For characters that like to have buffs on all day, go for it. (For example, hour/level spells could be assumed to be on ahead of time.)
Items of a very long duration might be used as well, though it would count against WBL, and a class should not make use of another class's abilities (i.e. that fighter who wants a barkskin spell placed on him better have lots of points in UMD or they ain't gettin it). Edit: I dunno if this reads right. I mean that items that imitate other class features, like scrolls, would be fine, provided you account for the WBL, but the character needs to be able to use it themselves, rather than relying on someone else to activate it.
However, this preparation is done ahead of time and not clear on what the scenario is going to be. Particularly, prepared spellcasters do need to choose their spells for the day, but they do not have any knowledge of where they will be fighting, or who they will be fighting. They know they will be dropped into an arena with an opponent, but that is it. Preparation will only allow that much. No Wizards grabbing Save or Suck Spells that target Will, because you know you're going against a fighter. Better be just as prepared for that Spell Resistant Barb, or the Druid who wants to maul your face.
I hate to recommend it, because it sounds so vanilla, but having all builds start with human might be best too. Balanced... but... SO BORING. Still, might be worthwhile.
Another edit: Multiclassing should probably be avoided.
Thoughts?
1. Range
2. Concealment
3. Hostile mooks: L/2 will attack closest player.
4. Rounds of buff allowed.
5. Is your opponents build known or unknown
Not sure I like the hostile mooks. Just seems like it would throw more variation into the system. Unless we want this to be more 'obstacle course' rather than 'fight to the death.' That said, I might be convinced otherwise. What would be your reason for including them?
For rounds of buff, I don't think that should be set in stone. If the characters can see each other at first glance, then it's straight into combat, and the only rounds for buffing are if you do find time for it then. If both are casters who want to buff before battle, they can, but if its a martial character who wins initiative and charges, that's perfectly legitimate. If we specifically allow time for buffs, I feel that sort of favors some classes, such as spellcasters, more than others, like martials, who would prefer to get things done ASAP.
As for knowledge of the opponents build, I'm pretty much against that on any of the arenas, but maybe that's just me.
In something like that, a wizard might have plenty of time to apply buffs, because they'll probably start at a distance and not even know where the other is. But, if a rogue or barbarian can quickly locate them somehow and quickly reach them, they'll still need to go into combat early. In other circumstances, the two might be unaware of each other for quite awhile, leading to prolonged buffing time. I think that would be more dependent on the classes, so it shouldn't really be set.
I'd suggest that we not allow LeaderShip, since this is best character, not best supporting cast. All other combinations legit.
Agreed on leadership. For the other combinations do you mean multiclassing too, or just feats? I agree that pretty much any other feats should probably be free game.
For personal opinion, I think any restriction of how you spend money is arbitrary and unnecessary. Who cares?
Agreed, aside from WBL restrictions.
So who wants to be the Kenny Blankenchip to my Vic Romano?
"Up next is Thoriel D'anton Babaganoush, famed halfling barbarian!"