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The problem is that the feat chain progression is locked behind level requirements: you cant go up the chain as quickly as a fighter gains feats. You thus have to branch out in a system that rewards specialization.
Setting aside that this is an issue with the feats, not with the fighter, it's not true. A fighter - and as far as I know, only a fighter - can have the entire feat chain by 9th level. You're taking either a Blinded Blade Style feat or a Blind-Fight feat every level from 5th to 9th.
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People who need to sleep. A Fighter woken up in the middle of the night by a monster attack will have to rely on the armor bonus of his pyjamas.Depending on what sources you allow there are cheap solutions to this problem...I never take my armor off :) it's a second skin.
Making your full plate glamered and comfort so it literally looks (and sleeps) like pajamas will only set you back 7700 gold (half price with the Master Armorer AAT). It will also always appear immaculately clean so people won't suspect you never take your armor off.
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People who need to sleep. A Fighter woken up in the middle of the night by a monster attack will have to rely on the armor bonus of his pyjamas.
All of my heavier armor wearers have a masterwork chain shirt to sleep in, once they're started out. (Still need to commission artwork of a dwarf with chainmail jammies.) As they gain levels, they get plenty of options that remove the need to change. My dwarf can sleep in his full plate and not be fatigued in the slightest.
The problem is that the feat chain progression is locked behind level requirements: you cant go up the chain as quickly as a fighter gains feats. You thus have to branch out in a system that rewards specialization.Setting aside that this is an issue with the feats, not with the fighter, it's not true. A fighter - and as far as I know, only a fighter - can have the entire feat chain by 9th level. You're taking either a Blinded Blade Style feat or a Blind-Fight feat every level from 5th to 9th.
the fighters biggest class feature is the feats. If there's a problem with them then there is a problem with the fighter class feature. If there's a problem with the fighters class feature there's a problem with the fighter.
You can retrain into the feat chain on just about any other class, or better yet, take something else until level 10 and then dip 2 levels into the fighter and pick up the feats even FASTER than a fighter getting feats every level by getting them every 2 levels. (if we're looking at the same feat chain it has a prerequisite of 10 ranks in perception)
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I want to make someone who is an actual, functional, effective combatant while completely and permanently blind - the archtypical "blind swordmaster." Blind Blade Style is the key piece, but given the feat requirements, only a fighter can effectively pull it off before mid-high levels. Moreover, the sensate archetype for fighters combines extremely well both mechanically and conceptually for the idea.
I built something similar with the 'Dark Lurker' Rogue archetype and later converted that to just using the 'Strike the Unseen' Vigilante talent (which gives you nearly everything the archetype does)... but both come together much later than a fighter concentrating on those feats would.
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The problem is that the feat chain progression is locked behind level requirements: you cant go up the chain as quickly as a fighter gains feats. You thus have to branch out in a system that rewards specialization.Setting aside that this is an issue with the feats, not with the fighter, it's not true. A fighter - and as far as I know, only a fighter - can have the entire feat chain by 9th level. You're taking either a Blinded Blade Style feat or a Blind-Fight feat every level from 5th to 9th.the fighters biggest class feature is the feats. If there's a problem with them then there is a problem with the fighter class feature. If there's a problem with the fighters class feature there's a problem with the fighter.
You can retrain into the feat chain on just about any other class, or better yet, take something else until level 10 and then dip 2 levels into the fighter and pick up the feats even FASTER than a fighter getting feats every level by getting them every 2 levels. (if we're looking at the same feat chain it has a prerequisite of 10 ranks in perception)
Read the feats again. They allow you to ignore the skills ranks prereqs. Also, retraining is not a class feature (unless you're a fighter, anyway) and is subject to costs on money, time, and GM approval.
EDIT: More relevantly, the point isn't the particular build, it's the general statement that "this concept needs a whole crapton of feats, a fighter is probably the best fit." This is especially likely to be the case if the feats are rather esoteric, and thus aren't going to show up on a ranger's style feat list.
Read the feats again. They allow you to ignore the skills ranks prereqs.
Thats not quite how they work.
Blinded blade style: Having this feat counts as having 10 ranks in Perception for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of the Improved Blind-Fight feat, as well as any feat that lists Improved Blind-Fight as a prerequisite.
but itself has a requirement of perception 5 ranks
So why not go something else till 4, then dip 2 fighter levels to be getting the feats you want when the fighter is gaining them fastest?
1st: whatever
3rd:blind fight
5th: F1 real feat: Blinded blade style Fighter bonus feat: Blinded competence
6th: f2: Blinded master
7th: Improved blind fight
Also, retraining is not a class feature (unless you're a fighter, anyway) and is subject to costs on money, time, and GM approval.
all of which are pretty trivial normally.
EDIT: More relevantly, the point isn't the particular build, it's the general statement that "this concept needs a whole crapton of feats, a fighter is probably the best fit." This is especially likely to be the case if the feats are rather esoteric, and thus aren't going to show up on a ranger's style feat list.
The counterpoint that i've been making and that you're missing is that you are level capped in the amount of tonnage you can throw into a theme, so the fighters ability to throw more tonnage doesn't help a whole lot. Even with that one exception where making the investment ammeliorates the cap you gain it FASTER with a dip. And thats the best case scenario because it requires 2 trees and lifts the cap.
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Read the feats again. They allow you to ignore the skills ranks prereqs.Thats not quite how they work.
Blinded blade style: Having this feat counts as having 10 ranks in Perception for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of the Improved Blind-Fight feat, as well as any feat that lists Improved Blind-Fight as a prerequisite.
but itself has a requirement of perception 5 ranks
So why not go something else till 4, then dip 2 fighter levels to be getting the feats you want when the fighter is gaining them fastest?
1st: whatever
3rd:blind fight
5th: F1 real feat: Blinded blade style Fighter bonus feat: Blinded competence
6th: f2: Blinded master
7th: Improved blind fight
Nope, doesn't work. You have to have Improved Blind-Fight before you can take Blinded Competence, and Greater Blind-Fight before you can take Blinded Master. So the progression goes
5th Blinded Blade Style6th Improved Blind-Fight
7th Blinded Competence
8th Greater Blind-Fight
9th Blinded Master
And yes, I could indeed take 4 levels of something else before running fighter for 5 levels, but sensate fighter is the best mechanical and thematic match for what I want to accomplish. My character is a half-elf, and will have a walking-around +11 will save (+13 vs enchantments) without a single piece of gear by level 10... I like the idea of discipline, an unbreakable will, and senses that peer through any obfuscation. It should be a fun character, and it works really well as a fighter.
Also, retraining is not a class feature (unless you're a fighter, anyway) and is subject to costs on money, time, and GM approval.all of which are pretty trivial normally.
But they are both nonzero and dangerous to treat as assumptions, particularly the GM approval aspect.
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having one, exact, very particular build that is ARGUABLY best for the fighter does not mean that the fighter doesn't have problems. It shows the lengths you need to go to to find a niche where fighter is your best option because it hasn't been filled by another class, and mostly comes down to you liking the archtype for flavor. That is a serious problem with the class.
I really think Paizo dropped the ball by doing an unchained barbarian instead of an unchained fighter. Sure with all of the books you can make a good fighter, however, by not rolling that into the base class, it means that 90% of the people playing fighter will be playing an unoptimized one.
I think it was deliberate. they wanted to see what they could do taking another whack at the classes so they tried one that was too weak (the rogue, monk) one that was too strong (the summoner) and two that were already just right (the barbarian). It wouldn't surprise me if there was an unchained II down the line with the fighter.
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having one, exact, very particular build that is ARGUABLY best for the fighter does not mean that the fighter doesn't have problems. It shows the lengths you need to go to to find a niche where fighter is your best option because it hasn't been filled by another class, and mostly comes down to you liking the archtype for flavor. That is a serious problem with the class.
I have at no point said the fighter doesn't have problems. What I said was, there are two reasons why I would turn to the fighter class, and they are: wanting to avoid mechanical baggage, and wanting lots and lots of weird out-there feats.
The point of me bringing up this character is not that "here's one particular build that proves you wrong" - it's "this happens enough for me when I am thinking about characters that I happen to have an idea literally already on my schedule." The same thing happened with Iron Gods, in fact, and was again about me having an idea that the fighter was the best fit for. ("I want to be able to use whatever weird random weapons we might find during the course of this AP, but that likely means a lot of Exotic Weapon Proficiencies and maybe support feats like improved maneuvers or whatever - martial master fighter, here I come!") So it's not this weird niche thing that only comes up once in a blue moon. It's just about how you approach your character design.
mechanically i don't see what you're getting out of the sensate than the barbarian.
The "baggage" seems to be mostly RP related , and you can trade it out with another archtype if you don't like it.
I really think Paizo dropped the ball by doing an unchained barbarian instead of an unchained fighter. Sure with all of the books you can make a good fighter, however, by not rolling that into the base class, it means that 90% of the people playing fighter will be playing an unoptimized one.
I think they simply went about unchaining the fighter differently. The Stamina system plus Advanced Weapon Training plus Advanced Armor Training is the Unchained Fighter. The problem, of course, is that a lot of people don't use Stamina (if you're able, and you want to play a fighter, lobby for it), that this material is spread across three books, and a lot of the pre-existing archetypes for the fighter are now invalid (this happened with the monk too), or are trap choices (anything that trades both WT and AT should be avoided at all costs.
Honestly, what would be nice is if they would go back to the older archetypes and change the language on things like "Crossbow Expert" ("At 5th level, a crossbowman gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with crossbows. ...") to mimic the Dragoon's "Spear Training" ("At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. ...")
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And be subpar at it. There's nothing a fighter gets at low levels that compares to rage. And at high levels, without warrior spirit, it's the worst martial at dealing damage.Or they'll stand around holding their swordIn my experience, they usually walk up to enemies and hit them with the sword.
But they can have warrior spirit, so why leave it out?
"If you don't take this option that adds versatility and damage, you're not good at versatility and damage"
I think they simply went about unchaining the fighter differently. The Stamina system plus Advanced Weapon Training plus Advanced Armor Training is the Unchained Fighter.
That's a nice sentiment, but in addition to the problems you've described... AWT doesn't come online until you're pretty deep in a typical campaign and then makes you choose which of the fighter's problems you're going to deal with rather than just addressing the issues directly.
Which makes it sort of leave a little sour taste as far as fixes go.
The problem is that the feat chain progression is locked behind level requirements: you cant go up the chain as quickly as a fighter gains feats. You thus have to branch out in a system that rewards specialization.Working on AM FIGHTER.
Check the guide that came about from this thread.the question is not "can a fighter be good"
the question is "why use the fighter to make that character?"
I have at least two reasons why I might do so:
1) Other martials come with mechanical baggage I'm not terribly interested in for the concept.
This mostly applies to the barbarian and paladin, but it's there for the slayer and ranger as well to a lesser extent. If my idea of how the character fights doesn't involve situational effects, unique terrain familiarity, etc., then those classes don't fit the idea right.
2) The concept involves an absurd number of feats.
This is actually why my Strange Aeons character is going to be a fighter. I want to make someone who is an actual, functional, effective combatant while completely and permanently blind - the archtypical "blind swordmaster." Blind Blade Style is the key piece, but given the feat requirements, only a fighter can effectively pull it off before mid-high levels. Moreover, the sensate archetype for fighters combines extremely well both mechanically and conceptually for the idea.
Your right. You don't really need the Fighter to blitz through the requirements. Any class combination of a human Monk 1/Anything 4 will get the entire chain. Technically Fighter is the best choice because in order to cheat you mechanically have to permanently blind yourself and well you only get blindsense by level 1 with that.
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mechanically i don't see what you're getting out of the sensate than the barbarian.
The "baggage" seems to be mostly RP related , and you can trade it out with another archtype if you don't like it.
Well, if I weren't going fighter with this character, I'd be going slayer, not barbarian, because it is definitely the next best choice to make the concept work. But the answer to your question is mostly "flavor," it's true. Conversely, though, what am I losing? Fast movement is literally the only ability I would actually like to have on this character that I won't get this way. It's not really a loss.
And RP-related baggage is... kind of a big deal in a role-playing game. One might even call it fundamentally an issue.
I think they simply went about unchaining the fighter differently. The Stamina system plus Advanced Weapon Training plus Advanced Armor Training is the Unchained Fighter.That's a nice sentiment, but in addition to the problems you've described... AWT doesn't come online until you're pretty deep in a typical campaign and then makes you choose which of the fighter's problems you're going to deal with rather than just addressing the issues directly.
Which makes it sort of leave a little sour taste as far as fixes go.
Level 3 or 5 is not pretty deep in the typical campaign.
Given how often I see/hear people talk about campaigns ending in the 10-15 range that's easily a third of the way through or more oftentimes. I'd say that's pretty deep to fix a core problem with the class. And then your second fix doesn't come in until level 9.
I mean, people whine plenty about Zen Archers having to wait till 3 to get online or Investigators waiting till 4 to get their combat mechanic. I don't see how waiting till 5 to fix one of your core deficiencies is suddenly no big deal.
If you are playing pfs, you can't take warrior spirit. And if you don't buy all the player companions, there's a chance you don't know about this option. And if you take an archtype that trades out weapon training, you are screwed.And be subpar at it. There's nothing a fighter gets at low levels that compares to rage. And at high levels, without warrior spirit, it's the worst martial at dealing damage.Or they'll stand around holding their swordIn my experience, they usually walk up to enemies and hit them with the sword.But they can have warrior spirit, so why leave it out?
"If you don't take this option that adds versatility and damage, you're not good at versatility and damage"
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas.
Everything the game puts out is online, PFS is piss poor at balance regarding martials and if its the only game you can get thats bad luck for you, and as of AWT, archetypes that trade out weapon training are bad.
I mean, people whine plenty about Zen Archers having to wait till 3 to get online or Investigators waiting till 4 to get their combat mechanic. I don't see how waiting till 5 to fix one of your core deficiencies is suddenly no big deal.
Its the internet, people whine about everything. level 3 is like 15% through the game as presented...5 is 25% through. If you can't be patient enough to get into the 2nd module of an adventure path before starting to get into the fun toys growth based rpgs might not be for you.
You get 1 feat at lv5 for AWT to fix something. Then the next AWT you can get is at lv9. If your campaign is a standard 1-6,7,8,9, lv5 is pretty deep into it. Even PFS that goes to 12, lv5 is pretty into the campaign. And then you get 1 option, that costs a feat, to fix 1 of the glaring holes. And the free one you get isn't till lv9. Which for sure IS deep in typical campaign.
Plus many AWT scale off of your WT bonus, so you're really not getting much till lv9 when you have a base +2 and can probably finally afford the fighter gloves.
You get 1 feat at lv5 for AWT to fix something. Then the next AWT you can get is at lv9. If your campaign is a standard 1-6,7,8,9, lv5 is pretty deep into it. Even PFS that goes to 12, lv5 is pretty into the campaign. And then you get 1 option, that costs a feat, to fix 1 of the glaring holes. And the free one you get isn't till lv9. Which for sure IS deep in typical campaign.
Plus many AWT scale off of your WT bonus, so you're really not getting much till lv9 when you have a base +2 and can probably finally afford the fighter gloves.
Or, if you are like the common wisdom and the only thing you care about is your one specialty weapon, you get it at level 3, and then at any bonus feat you care to spend for the rest of your career by being a weapon master.
And due respect but ive had far more campaigns that were played more than once or twice end in the mid teens rather than level 9. There most certainly hasn't been anything resembling an accurate poll on what the average end point of a campaign is so i doubt claims that X is standard hold much water.
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Its the internet, people whine about everything. level 3 is like 15% through the game as presented...5 is 25% through. If you can't be patient enough to get into the 2nd module of an adventure path before starting to get into the fun toys growth based rpgs might not be for you.
Many classes get fun toys at lv1, barbs, paladins, wizards, clerics, druids, etc ; and just get more fun toys in the 2nd module. That's the growth based RPG that this pathfinder game is for lots of classes.
Which is another deficiency of the fighter. I wait 25%, with no toys, while other classes have nice toys. To finally get not really a toy, but a fix to my broken chassis, while they get another nice toy.
Or, if you are like the common wisdom and the only thing you care about is your one specialty weapon, you get it at level 3, and then at any bonus feat you care to spend for the rest of your career by being a weapon master.You get 1 feat at lv5 for AWT to fix something. Then the next AWT you can get is at lv9. If your campaign is a standard 1-6,7,8,9, lv5 is pretty deep into it. Even PFS that goes to 12, lv5 is pretty into the campaign. And then you get 1 option, that costs a feat, to fix 1 of the glaring holes. And the free one you get isn't till lv9. Which for sure IS deep in typical campaign.
Plus many AWT scale off of your WT bonus, so you're really not getting much till lv9 when you have a base +2 and can probably finally afford the fighter gloves.
So sacrificing AAT, and bravery for any will save fixes and being locked into 1 archetype is how the fighter is now fixed. Gotcha.
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So sacrificing AAT, and being locked into 1 archetype is how the fighter is now fixed. Gotcha.Or, if you are like the common wisdom and the only thing you care about is your one specialty weapon, you get it at level 3, and then at any bonus feat you care to spend for the rest of your career by being a weapon master.You get 1 feat at lv5 for AWT to fix something. Then the next AWT you can get is at lv9. If your campaign is a standard 1-6,7,8,9, lv5 is pretty deep into it. Even PFS that goes to 12, lv5 is pretty into the campaign. And then you get 1 option, that costs a feat, to fix 1 of the glaring holes. And the free one you get isn't till lv9. Which for sure IS deep in typical campaign.
Plus many AWT scale off of your WT bonus, so you're really not getting much till lv9 when you have a base +2 and can probably finally afford the fighter gloves.
You strawman a lot.
You strawman a lot.So sacrificing AAT, giving up bravery for any will save fix, and being locked into 1 archetype is how the fighter is now fixed. Gotcha.Or, if you are like the common wisdom and the only thing you care about is your one specialty weapon, you get it at level 3, and then at any bonus feat you care to spend for the rest of your career by being a weapon master.You get 1 feat at lv5 for AWT to fix something. Then the next AWT you can get is at lv9. If your campaign is a standard 1-6,7,8,9, lv5 is pretty deep into it. Even PFS that goes to 12, lv5 is pretty into the campaign. And then you get 1 option, that costs a feat, to fix 1 of the glaring holes. And the free one you get isn't till lv9. Which for sure IS deep in typical campaign.
Plus many AWT scale off of your WT bonus, so you're really not getting much till lv9 when you have a base +2 and can probably finally afford the fighter gloves.
What do you mean strawman?
The comment was made that AWT doesn't really fix the fighter. That it comes in later for a lot of campaigns, and that you only get to fix 1 thing till level 9. AKA you need to make your choice which hole to fill when you first get it.Then you comment that "going weapon master is the answer to the slow access of AWT, since if you subscribe to common wisdom you only need one weapon anyways"
My comment is that I didn't realize that getting rid of AAT, bravery for will save fixes, and needing that one specific archetype, was the generic fix to the fighter. Since the argument basis is that the fighter isn't in a good spot, even if it is in a better spot than it was before, by showing how current "fixes" are still fundamentally flawed.
So what am I strawmanning? You're the one making your argument. I'm not even extrapolating it to something you weren't addressing or leaving out anything that gives context. Just claiming strawmanning isn't something to do just to remove the criticism of your claim.
No you're frantically making arguments against arguments i didn't make.
You want my position?
AWT, AAT, and item mastery feats in some combination or another solve 90% of fighters issues.
Waiting 3 to 5 levels to get those abilties isn't much of an imposition as for the first 4/5 levels, a 2 hander and power attack is enough to get you by anyway.
The assumption that your game is half done by level 5 is faulty, it may be some people's experience but it certainly isnt mine and I'm nowhere near convinced its the common experience.
PFS doesnt allow it is not an argument against anything, they spend more time reining in martials than they do actual powerhouse classes and you can accomplish far more abusive things within their ruleset than many of the things they dont allow. Most of the time PFS doesn't allow it is an indictment of PFS, not the option under discussion.
AWT is better and fixes more of the problems than AAT, if you have to pick an archetype, one that either counts as AWT, or one that gives up AAT is ok, one that gives up AWT entirely is sub par.
Outside of access to pounce, a fighter's damage output can be built to be within the margin of statistical error of a barbarian, its not even particularly tough to do.
Fighter's will saves are a problem, they can be addressed with race choices, feats, traits and Armed bravery depending on your build. You simply choose the option that fits with the archetype selection, and how weak the save is on a character by character basis.
All the solutions are spread out over all these splatbooks is barely an issue when there are several sites that gather it all together, tell you what splat the option is found in and present it in an easily accessible format. Smartphones, tablets, and internet access are ubiquitous in places where folks have the disposable income and leisure time to play tabletop RPGS, people have access to these options and a means to get them if they really want them. Combat Stamina is the biggest issue with that and even then the resource sites are plugging away at getting that information added too.
The assumption that your game is half done by level 5 is faulty, it may be some people's experience but it certainly isnt mine and I'm nowhere near convinced its the common experience.
It's a very common claim on the boards.
If the people coming here, the ones that are really into the game enough to be here, aren't getting in a lot of high level play then what would lead you to conclude that they're the exception and you're the rule rather than the other way around?
I think they simply went about unchaining the fighter differently. The Stamina system plus Advanced Weapon Training plus Advanced Armor Training is the Unchained Fighter.That's a nice sentiment, but in addition to the problems you've described... AWT doesn't come online until you're pretty deep in a typical campaign and then makes you choose which of the fighter's problems you're going to deal with rather than just addressing the issues directly.
Which makes it sort of leave a little sour taste as far as fixes go.
I think the Fighter was already pretty good for levels like 1-3. A human fighter at level 3 has 5 feats, good HP, good accuracy, and can hit pretty hard and these are levels where that's pretty much the whole show. I grant you "better saves and more skill points per level" are probably things that would be handy to come online earlier, but fighters have always done pretty well at the very low levels, which isn't where they need fixing.
Fighters are never going to catch up to full casters at the level where they're stopping time and creating demi-planes and teleporting to other planets, but almost nobody plays at those levels anyway (at least not "plays" in the sense that they fight things and roll dice.)
Where fighters really needed help was levels 5-12ish, which is where AWT and AAT come online. It's not a perfect fix, but it's a solid attempt at fixing the problem.
The assumption that your game is half done by level 5 is faulty, it may be some people's experience but it certainly isnt mine and I'm nowhere near convinced its the common experience.It's a very common claim on the boards.
If the people coming here, the ones that are really into the game enough to be here, aren't getting in a lot of high level play then what would lead you to conclude that they're the exception and you're the rule rather than the other way around?
Experience with fan boards vs people who dont linger on them? 25 years of experience with tabletop rpgs? The fact that simply by being the type of person who goes to game boards you're self selecting for certain levels of enthusiasm and system mastery which will contribute to parallels in game style? The fact that common claims on forums tend to get overinflated by repetition by a few prolific people more than noticed because a statistically significant % of the population are saying it once.
People REALLY into a game's system mastery don't play the same way the average player does.
If i had to spitball a guess Id imagine that people who are really into system mastery rarely get to high level play because they are the ones who perceive the power disparity that can occur and taper off the campaign before it gets there. And I'm not saying that the majority of campaigns ive been in went to mid teens, but any of the ones that made it past 1-3 sessions either got there, or ended in tpk.
No you're frantically making arguments against arguments i didn't make.
You want my position?
I'm commenting/arguing against the stuff you said. I'm sorry(?) that what you've been saying isn't actually what you believe? I guess.
AWT, AAT, and item mastery feats in some combination or another solve 90% of fighters issues.
I disagree, they help for sure, but outside of Schrodinger's fighter exploitation, they fail to solve the issues I and many have with the fighter.
Waiting 3 to 5 levels to get those abilties isn't much of an imposition as for the first 4/5 levels, a 2 hander and power attack is enough to get you by anyway.
But the thing is, you DON'T get AAT or AWT at lv 3 or 4/5. You get the option to burn a feat, aka your other class feature, to pick which hole you want to plug for the next 4+ levels.
The assumption that your game is half done by level 5 is faulty, it may be some people's experience but it certainly isnt mine and I'm nowhere near convinced its the common experience.
as BNW says, the talk I see on the boards is most games end in single digit levels, and PFS basically ends at 12. Really the only time I see stuff talked about 12+ is people doing full 1-20 builds because they think there new campaign starting at lv1 will reach lv20, or people asking for help with a build for a one-shot. So even assuming that a campaign reaches lv20, and all levels are of equal time, waiting till lv9 for a second AWT is still about half your time without 2 AWT, and 25% of your time with no fix to any of the fighter's many holes.
PFS doesn't allow it is not an argument against anything, they spend more time reining in martials than they do actual powerhouse classes and you can accomplish far more abusive things within their ruleset than many of the things they don't allow. Most of the time PFS doesn't allow it is an indictment of PFS, not the option under discussion.
Be that as it may, I see a lot of PFS advice and must be PFS complaint advice since their home game is using that as a basis for their houserules. Plus I see lots of people saying RPG line and 1 softcover allowed for their character or some sort of limiting of material. Plus, the items that are clearly superior are at the most risk of being banned in a home game, and warrior spirit is that. So if a fix ISN'T something that is almost universally allowed, then it's not a good enough fix for me and many posters.
AWT is better and fixes more of the problems than AAT, if you have to pick an archetype, one that either counts as AWT, or one that gives up AAT is ok, one that gives up AWT entirely is sub par.
Outside of access to pounce, a fighter's damage output can be built to be within the margin of statistical error of a barbarian, its not even particularly tough to do.
Fighter's will saves are a problem, they can be addressed with race choices, feats, traits and Armed bravery depending on your build. You simply choose the option that fits with the archetype selection, and how weak the save is on a character by character basis.
The issue is that most of these things are scoped to help the fighter look good "outside of pounce access" and not caring about OOC utility OR saves or anything that the fighter loses out on to the barb to match the barb on what should be the fighter's clear victory, damage. And by using out of class options. using a will boosting class, with will trait, and iron will, and armed bravery is what puts the will save into an acceptable region. cutting out armed bravery is what you do so that your will save isn't a complete joke.
All the solutions are spread out over all these splatbooks is barely an issue when there are several sites that gather it all together, tell you what splat the option is found in and present it in an easily accessible format. Smartphones, tablets, and internet access are ubiquitous in places where folks have the disposable income and leisure time to play tabletop RPGS, people have access to these options and a means to get them if they really want them. Combat Stamina is the biggest issue with that and even then the resource sites are plugging away at getting that information added too.
Having material available doesn't make it allowed in the game. People have been touting 3PP deadly agility or whatnot as the fix for dex to damage for YEARS. It's probably freely found on some website. IF just having material available means all issues are fixed, then dex to damage would have been fixed for years. But it doesn't. Many games have restrictions on what is available for various reasons. So, needing 5 splatbooks to make the fighter passable is a negative since that free access isn't always legal even if it is available.
I think they simply went about unchaining the fighter differently. The Stamina system plus Advanced Weapon Training plus Advanced Armor Training is the Unchained Fighter.That's a nice sentiment, but in addition to the problems you've described... AWT doesn't come online until you're pretty deep in a typical campaign and then makes you choose which of the fighter's problems you're going to deal with rather than just addressing the issues directly.
Which makes it sort of leave a little sour taste as far as fixes go.
I think the Fighter was already pretty good for levels like 1-3. A human fighter at level 3 has 5 feats, good HP, good accuracy, and can hit pretty hard and these are levels where that's pretty much the whole show. I grant you "better saves and more skill points per level" are probably things that would be handy to come online earlier, but fighters have always done pretty well at the very low levels, which isn't where they need fixing.
Fighters are never going to catch up to full casters at the level where they're stopping time and creating demi-planes and teleporting to other planets, but almost nobody plays at those levels anyway (at least not "plays" in the sense that they fight things and roll dice.)
Where fighters really needed help was levels 5-12ish, which is where AWT and AAT come online. It's not a perfect fix, but it's a solid attempt at fixing the problem.
The fighter is passable levels 1-3 because dice are king and most are okay with that. A fighter is shown up by the barbs and paladin's lv1-3, it's just often you don't get 2 people making beatemup characters in the same party. But every time I've seen a fighter play with a party that had a barb or a paladin or ranger they've felt left out and sad they didn't have any cool features.
and the other issue, is levels 5-12, the fighter is playing catch-up. at lv5 with WF and WS using a THW and having iron will and toughness for the HP, and also take AWT for skills, I've now reached the base that the barb starts out with. So I've waited 5 levels, and used 3 combat feats and 2 regular feats, to have the same stats as the barb. at lv 5 I've gotten 3 bonus combat feats and 3 regular feats. So I've used all my class features up to this point to match what the barb had from lv1. He's now received 2 rage powers and other minor abilities that I don't have an answer to.
it's just too long for stuff.
and the other issue, is levels 5-12, the fighter is playing catch-up. at lv5 with WF and WS using a THW and having iron will and toughness for the HP, and also take AWT for skills, I've now reached the base that the barb starts out with. So I've waited 5 levels, and used 3 combat feats and 2 regular feats, to have the same stats as the barb. at lv 5 I've gotten 3 bonus combat feats and 3 regular feats. So I've used all my class features up to this point to match what the barb had from lv1. He's now received 2 rage powers and other minor abilities that I don't have an answer to.
And the Fighter has +4 AC over the Barbarian (+1 Heavy Armor, +2 not raging, +1 Armor Training) and +1 to fear saves.
Also, I'd rather skip WF and WS and be at -1 attack and -2 damage to the Barb and pick feats that improve my quality of life in non-quantitative ways, like Lunge, Step Up, Combat Reflexes or, more notably, Armored Juggernaut to start off with my DR a whole 4 levels earlier than the Barb, capping off at DR 11/-, which a Barb can only do with 3 Imp. DR rage powers (UnBarb).
Now the fighter is needing a higher dex, and next level the barb gets the AC to match the fighter.
Or uses one of the many archetypes the barb has to have good AC.
Or uses it's feats to get AC and now he's used 2 of his 3 feats like the fighter, but still has his 2 rage powers and other minor features.
The deal is, the fighter using AWT to fix itself is playing catch-up with the other classes. I don't think there's anything a fighter can do that a barb with an archetype doesn't match and exceed elsewhere.
EDIT: One big gripe is that now all the fighter's archetypes are bad trades since they lose out on AAT and/or AWT. So the fighter is stuck at it's thing, while a barb can take archetypes to change up the way he plays and isn't at a large loss of class features.
Now the fighter is needing a higher dex, and next level the barb gets the AC to match the fighter.
Or uses one of the many archetypes the barb has to have good AC.
Or uses it's feats to get AC and now he's used 2 of his 3 feats like the fighter, but still has his 2 rage powers and other minor features.The deal is, the fighter using AWT to fix itself is playing catch-up with the other classes. I don't think there's anything a fighter can do that a barb with an archetype doesn't match and exceed elsewhere.
EDIT: One big gripe is that now all the fighter's archetypes are bad trades since they lose out on AAT and/or AWT. So the fighter is stuck at it's thing, while a barb can take archetypes to change up the way he plays and isn't at a large loss of class features.
The fighter doesn't need a higher dex, advanced armor training fixes that with armor specialization, if you're that concerned about ac right then. Fighter needs like 14 dex to be optimal, magical assistance included.
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And RP-related baggage is... kind of a big deal in a role-playing game. One might even call it fundamentally an issue.
No. It isn't.
Outside of the druid and paladin who have some role playing restrictions the classes are strictly mechanics. If you don't like the flavor of them you can change that flavor. The ranger does not have to be a mysterious stranger roaming the wilderness, they work perfectly well as a more studious and thoughtful combatant, a thug with a keen insight into human nature, or an assassin that knows how to hit you where it hurts. The only limitations are your imagination.
We all need to read more.
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Design Manager
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And RP-related baggage is... kind of a big deal in a role-playing game. One might even call it fundamentally an issue.
No. It isn't.
Outside of the druid and paladin who have some role playing restrictions the classes are strictly mechanics. If you don't like the flavor of them you can change that flavor. The ranger does not have to be a mysterious stranger roaming the wilderness, they work perfectly well as a more studious and thoughtful combatant, a thug with a keen insight into human nature, or an assassin that knows how to hit you where it hurts. The only limitations are your imagination.
Word. Before the Slayer was released, I was far, far more likely to have a Ranger with Favored Enemy (humanoid-human), Favored Terrain (urban), and the team-oriented Hunter's Bond serving as the leader of a thieve's or assassin's guild in my campaigns than a Rogue.
The first Vigilante I played was a military special forces type whose dual identity was his "war face" mode with camo paints and a hood. Pretty much everyone in his home city knew who he was in both identities, since the war paint was only meant to fool his country's enemies.I also had a bard once with Perform (oratory) who was basically just Jafar from the Disney Aladdin movies.
Anyways, yeah, outside of really specific roleplaying-centric mechanics like the paladin's code and the druid's prohibitions, there's not much in a given class that limits how you want to portray it or what it is / how it's presented in-game.
The assumption that your game is half done by level 5 is faulty, it may be some people's experience but it certainly isnt mine and I'm nowhere near convinced its the common experience.It's a very common claim on the boards.
If the people coming here, the ones that are really into the game enough to be here, aren't getting in a lot of high level play then what would lead you to conclude that they're the exception and you're the rule rather than the other way around?
There's also the fact that most APs end by around 16th level, most PFS characters cap at 12th level, and the higher level you go the fewer adventure modules there are, which various publishers and members of the Paizo staff have said is because the higher level modules don't sell as well. Given that Paizo's business was built around their modules and adventure paths and PFS is their primary marketing engine, it seems pretty likely that lower level play is far more common and popular than high level play.
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There's also the fact that most APs end by around 16th level, most PFS characters cap at 12th level, and the higher level you go the fewer adventure modules there are, which various publishers and members of the Paizo staff have said is because the higher level modules don't sell as well. Given that Paizo's business was built around their modules and adventure paths and PFS is their primary marketing engine, it seems pretty likely that lower level play is far more common and popular than high level play.
There's also the fact that many (if not most) campaigns never get finished. They end mid-campaign because of a TPK, in game issues or real life issues.
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Design Manager
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There's also the fact that many (if not most) campaigns never get finished. They end mid-campaign because of a TPK, in game issues or real life issues....
There's also the fact that most APs end by around 16th level, most PFS characters cap at 12th level, and the higher level you go the fewer adventure modules there are, which various publishers and members of the Paizo staff have said is because the higher level modules don't sell as well. Given that Paizo's business was built around their modules and adventure paths and PFS is their primary marketing engine, it seems pretty likely that lower level play is far more common and popular than high level play.
True story. 90% of our games end due to deployments, job transfers, divorce, death, or any of a variety of other factors that aren't "Completed the entire adventure".
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And RP-related baggage is... kind of a big deal in a role-playing game. One might even call it fundamentally an issue.
No. It isn't.
Outside of the druid and paladin who have some role playing restrictions the classes are strictly mechanics. If you don't like the flavor of them you can change that flavor. The ranger does not have to be a mysterious stranger roaming the wilderness, they work perfectly well as a more studious and thoughtful combatant, a thug with a keen insight into human nature, or an assassin that knows how to hit you where it hurts. The only limitations are your imagination.
Still no. Because I can change the flavor of the mechanics, sure. I do it all the time. But the mechanics themselves still constitute baggage. It doesn't matter why the ranger is a specialist in fighting certain enemies if the concept that I want to play doesn't involve specializing in fighting certain enemies at all. It doesn't matter if I call the barbarian's rage "battle trance" if the concept doesn't involve fighting better in one mental state versus another. I can flavor the slayer's focus however I like as well (I have an android I'm playing right now who calls it tactical analysis), but that only makes sense if the concept somehow involves studying an opponent to gain knowledge of its weaknesses. If that's not the character I want to build, then "use your imagination" is basically telling me I'm trying to have badwrongfun, and there's no point in continuing the discussion.
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then "use your imagination" is basically telling me I'm trying to have badwrongfun, and there's no point in continuing the discussion.
No. You are telling everyone else they have having badwrongfun by not using the mechanics with the listed flavor and instead taking the mechanics that work (which is kinda the point of mechanics). You are being deliberately nitpicky and selecting the fighteryist characters and turning your nose up at other, better mechanics because they're not fightery. No other reason.
but that only makes sense if the concept somehow involves studying an opponent to gain knowledge of its weaknesses
Or you're letting them tire themselves out, or you're winding up for a big series of punches, or you're putting them at a subtle spacial disadvantage (berniti's defense!) , or you suddenly reveal that you're not left handed, or you throw sand in their face, or you commune with the spirit of your great great grand pappy and ask him how he fought these things in the great war .. and thats BEFORE you start archtyping the powers you don't like out.
You are insisting that the class has to be the flavor and it doesn't. The class does not imbue the character with depth, life, and breadth. the Player does.
Don't complain about the box or use the box as an excuse. think outside of it.
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then "use your imagination" is basically telling me I'm trying to have badwrongfun, and there's no point in continuing the discussion.No. You are telling everyone else they have having badwrongfun by not using the mechanics with the listed flavor and instead taking the mechanics that work (which is kinda the point of mechanics).
I will accept this statement if and only if you can point out anywhere in this thread where I have said anything at all about what someone else should play. Otherwise, since I have been repeatedly told how I should be playing, check the attitude.
Regardless, I'm done.
If there's an experienced player around, they can give the newbie the basic knowledge they need to make an adequate fighter in thirty seconds flat. (High Strength, dump Int and Cha, don't dump Wisdom or Constitution, use a two-handed weapon, take Power Attack.) They won't be as effective as a Magus created by a powergamer, but they'll do fine by normal standards.
So then the new player has a character who can do only one thing, does mediocre damage, fails every will save, and is completely useless out of combat.
Yeah, that guy's sure to come back for the next campaign!Armored Juggernaut to start off with my DR a whole 4 levels earlier than the Barb
Wait, there are Barbarians out there that aren't Invulnerable Ragers?
A fighter - and as far as I know, only a fighter - can have the entire feat chain by 9th level.
Avenger Vigilante says "hi".