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So, to de-derail the M/C disparity thread: My thoughts are that the fighter has 3 main problems.
1) Fighters have little narrative power. This has been discussed to death.
2) Fighters are boring at fighting. They can only really do one thing in combat, and more importantly can only fight at one speed.
Consider: If you spec for TWF, its hard to also be a bowman. Also, since fighters have no per-day abilities, they can't make interesting decisions about when to burn hotter or to save resources.3) Fighters have no flavor. This is sort of an extension of the other two but I think it bears mentioning. The fighter is not about anything, so its hard to give him non-boring abilities. Compare to the barbarian. You could come up with lots of cool things he could do by saying "I'm so angry that ____." The fighter just gets boring flat bonuses.
And before a certain marshmallow mentions the stamina pool, let me respond :p
Stamina is a good attempt, but it does not go very far. The pool is small and refills very slowly, but you need to spend 5 or so points to get anything. So stamina works out to a few extra numbers a few times per day. Nice, but still boring.
Fighters are the "armor and weapons" guy. Bravery/Armed Braver/Improved Bravery has plenty of favor behind being a hardened warrior.
Also:
Didn't we have this thread already?
The fighter gets dogged on for only having one trick (combat) and not being able to do much out of combat. They also don't have a resource system and can't on their own get around things like needing a magic weapon.
Unchained released a system (and specifically suggest giving it to fighters for free) that grants a stamina pool and gives almost every combat feat an upgrade.
Then they created the Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options which give them better defenses, more skills, and more power.
In "The Final Fighter Thread" we came to the conclusion that the real problem with the fighter is that you need to own 5 books to have all these options instead of 1.
I'm gonna remind everyone where this all started, since no one seems to remember that half of these points are ones I already made.
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I'm playing a fighter right now. Mutation Master 13. It's pretty cool: I wield an elven spear with a shield, because I have 3 arms; I can fly very fast, cause the mutagen keeps my dex really high so I can use a light armor and still have good ac (36 with mutagen on); I am the face of the party, albeit my skills aren't very good, I'm just better tan the rest; Cut from the air & smash from the air let me use my 11 attacks of opportunity per round to cover my party when they are wounded; Warrior spirit lets me have bane on demand, but also Greater Distracting, Planar, Heretic, Treasonous & Mimetic, all of them situationally great weapon qualities. I can sneak, trip, attack at range, ignore dr and lock down casters (disruptive + spellbreaker + greater disrupting) all with moderate success.
All in all, I like my character and I don't get bored because I can do a bunch of different things. I'm not a batman wizard, of course, but it's nice.
However, that required going through a bunch of different books, spending hours scanning for useful feats & weapon qualities, choosing a weird weapon (reach + finesse) that determines my race (elf) and so reduces my hp and my dpr, because 1d8 20x3 is not very special.
So my point is that you can make an interesting fighter, but the cost in time and effort is really tough. And you still can't do anything overtly significant. I can't teleport to the other side of the world, I can't créate a demiplane, I can't heal, I can't overcome a trapped door. Stamina points are a joke; they don't do anything, just a bit more damage here and a bit more damage there. Advanced armor training it's also kinda bad. Apart from the one that gives you skills and the one that lets you craft magic arms & armor, the rest just don't do anything.
So, yeah. I don't think the fighter is in an disadvantageous position compared to the other martials. I don't think paladins, rangers & barbarians are head and shoulders above it. So, in this respect, I think fighters are done. Fixed.
Of course, casters are another story. M/C D, etc.
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Fighters are the "armor and weapons" guy. Bravery/Armed Braver/Improved Bravery has plenty of favor behind being a hardened warrior.
Sort of? I mean, the barbarian, paladin and ranger use armor and weapons. To be fair, I like Armor training in that it lets you move fast in heavier armors. That's pretty cool. But a +1 to hit and damage is not being "the weapons guy." Where are the special abilities you get based on which weapon group you use? That would at least let you specialize to the situation.
Also: the fact that being able to move full speed in heavy armor comes really late makes me sad :(
Also:Didn't we have this thread already?
The fighter gets dogged on for only having one trick (combat) and not being able to do much out of combat. They also don't have a resource system and can't on their own get around things like needing a magic weapon.
Unchained released a system (and specifically suggest giving it to fighters for free) that grants a stamina pool and gives almost every combat feat an upgrade.
Then they created the Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options which give them better defenses, more skills, and more power.
In "The Final Fighter Thread" we came to the conclusion that the real problem with the fighter is
I did respond to the stamina pool. It is a good idea - i.e. a resource pool. But it does not do much other than give a few small bonuses. For some feats it is cool in that it expands who they can be used against. Consider The twin thunders line. But others its just "Add damage equal to stamina spent."
The biggest problem with stamina is that all the feats that you want to use it with cost a ton. As you level up, more and more feats that you have make you want to spend stamina on them. At the same time, your ability to recover your pool does not improve. A level 10 fighter needs something like 13 minutes to recover his full pool. Most dungeons don't give you a bunch of time to rest all the time.
That said, it feels like stamina was balanced around it recovering.
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Fighters are the "armor and weapons" guy. Bravery/Armed Braver/Improved Bravery has plenty of favor behind being a hardened warrior.
Sort of? I mean, the barbarian, paladin and ranger use armor and weapons. To be fair, I like Armor training in that it lets you move fast in heavier armors. That's pretty cool. But a +1 to hit and damage is not being "the weapons guy." Where are the special abilities you get based on which weapon group you use? That would at least let you specialize to the situation.
Also: the fact that being able to move full speed in heavy armor comes really late makes me sad :(
Also:Didn't we have this thread already?
The fighter gets dogged on for only having one trick (combat) and not being able to do much out of combat. They also don't have a resource system and can't on their own get around things like needing a magic weapon.
Unchained released a system (and specifically suggest giving it to fighters for free) that grants a stamina pool and gives almost every combat feat an upgrade.
Then they created the Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options which give them better defenses, more skills, and more power.
In "The Final Fighter Thread" we came to the conclusion that the real problem with the fighter is
I did respond to the stamina pool. It is a good idea - i.e. a resource pool. But it does not do much other than give a few small bonuses. For some feats it is cool in that it expands who they can be used against. Consider The twin thunders line. But others its just "Add damage equal to stamina spent."
The biggest problem with stamina is that all the feats that you want to use it with cost a ton. As you level up, more and more feats that you have make you want to spend stamina on them. At the same time, your ability to recover your pool does not improve. A level 10...
It also gets rid of INT prerequisites so fighters can qualify for things like Combat Expertise and Improved [maneuver] without investing in INT, which only the Brawler and Swashbuckler can currently do. Reduces MAD (which the fighter invariably has thanks to the way Armor Training works). That gets overlooked since most people (itt at least) who complain about the system haven't bothered to read it.
It's also a narrative tool, the fighter pushes himself to be able to be better at using his feats than literally everyone else, making his flagship class feature shine. Push the Limits let's him do it even when he's exhausted.
I definitely think a better fighter version would gain the abilities of the specific archetypes based on his weapon group choice: i.e. overhand chop for heavy blades, archery volley for bows, etc. Like a bloodline, but for fighting. But that invalidates the archetypes and class and requires a rewrite of the whole system.
Well, a chunk of those archetypes were already sort of invalidated by WMH.
I'm sort of confused by the "narrative power" criticism. Is it just a "solving problems directly with your class abilities" question? That is, if there's a chasm to get across the person who can cast fly isn't really impeded by it. I get that, but then the fighter's "lack of narrative power" is shared by a bunch of other classes (Barbarians can't cast fly either).
It seems though that most of "narrative" gets done not by vaulting over chasms, but through player scheming and conversations with NPCs. I see "you got over the hole/knocked down the door/disarmed the trap" as, at best, perfunctory challenges that the party has to work through before moving on; the sort of thing I wouldn't bother throwing at the party unless they actually had a way to do it. The problem is less that the fighter can't trivialize these sorts of challenges (as trivial challenges aren't interesting) and more that the wizard (et. al) can.
But how exactly are we gauging "Narrative Power" here and what makes the fighter worse off here than the Monk, Gunslinger, Barbarian, and Rogue? Is it just the 2 skills per level thing?
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But how exactly are we gauging "Narrative Power" here and what makes the fighter worse off here than the Monk, Gunslinger, Barbarian, and Rogue? Is it just the 2 skills per level thing?
Well I mean, sans barbarian those are all classes people have had a very very low opinion of for similar reasons. So you're not really setting a high bar for this comparison.
That said, yeah, the extra skill points and the talents/tricks/powers that let you do things other than kill better help.
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I'm sort of confused by the "narrative power" criticism. Is it just a "solving problems directly with your class abilities" question? That is, if there's a chasm to get across the person who can cast fly isn't really impeded by it. I get that, but then the fighter's "lack of narrative power" is shared by a bunch of other classes (Barbarians can't cast fly either).
It seems though that most of "narrative" gets done not by vaulting over chasms, but through player scheming and conversations with NPCs. I see "you got over the hole/knocked down the door/disarmed the trap" as, at best, perfunctory challenges that the party has to work through before moving on; the sort of thing I wouldn't bother throwing at the party unless they actually had a way to do it. The problem is less that the fighter can't trivialize these sorts of challenges (as trivial challenges aren't interesting) and more that the wizard (et. al) can.
But how exactly are we gauging "Narrative Power" here and what makes the fighter worse off here than the Monk, Gunslinger, Barbarian, and Rogue? Is it just the 2 skills per level thing?
Barbarians are a bad example for not being able to cast "Fly." They have at least 3 options, as far as I know...
Raging Flier (@6) -- I cannot seem to locate a Paizo source for this one... Help?
Dragon Totem Wings (@10)
Elemental Blood, Greater: Electricity (@10)
I think this illustrates the problem that people have not only with Caster-Martial disparity but with Fighter-EveryoneElse disparity. If the Barbarian can be so angry that he suddenly starts flying, why can't the Fighter perform some over-the-top, unbelievable feats of strength (leaping 30' into the air and landing safely, hitting a guy so hard he careens into someone else, climbing a sheer wall by punching holes into it, etc.)? Bonus points for making his abilities "(Ex)".
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Raging flier is from the Advanced Class Guide
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Raging Flier is listed under Skald.
why can't the Fighter perform some over-the-top, unbelievable feats of strength (leaping 30' into the air and landing safely, hitting a guy so hard he careens into someone else,...
Because we don''t want your stupid anime stuff, dammit! And if Aragon or Boromir didn't do it, a fighter can't be allowed to do it, either!! Otherwise, it wouldn't be realistic!!!
Seriously, even Monk got cool stuff in unchained, e.g. he can become ethereal (and thus can fly, move through walls, and be invisible) for 2x1 minute per day at lvl4 if he wants to.
I think there is a certain refuses-to-acknowledge-the-world-he's-living-in vs. everyone-else disparity. Why would an adventurer living in a world with widely aviable, reliable, and save magic not use magical stuff? It's like Fighters (among with Rogues, Gunslingers, Cavaliers et al.) are some sort of amish people trying to mix with normal society.
If you take a look at the fighter class table, the only supernatural ability he has is Warrior Spirit - which is fairly recent and comes from a splatbook*. In addition, I count merely five archetypes (out of ca. 50) that give fighters supernatural abilities (plus one that gives him very crappy spellcasting).
*) At least the Barb started to get magical stuff in the APG.
@Blueskier: It should also be noted that you had to squeeze every supernatural option the class has into your character.
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Raging flier is from the Advanced Class Guide
...and is on the list of Skald/Barbarian powers instead of on the list of Barbarian/Skald powers! Thank you!
The thing I'm saying is that if there are people in the class that has the ability to fly, I won't put "there's a chasm there" for a thing for the party to figure out how to cross, since it's not interesting it's just "someone casts fly". If there has to be a chasm there, because it was previously mentioned, I'll just handwave how the party gets across it once they've all got the ability to fly. This is less "narrative power" and more "limiting creative space for GMs" since a problem you can solve simply with the application of a class ability or spell is not a very interesting problem. Giving the Wizard a hundred options to get from City A to City B doesn't make that class more interesting, since long before they had that many options the party was probably high enough level that nobody was likely to mess with them in transit.
So I'm not saying that the fighter has all sorts of class abilities that solve problems by themselves, since that's obviously not the case, I just don't think it's right to call that "narrative power." There's more narrative power (in the sense of a player's ability to influence the direction the narrative goes in) in just "deciding what is best to attempt next" and "roleplaying encounters with NPCs" than there is in 9 levels of wizard spells, IMO.
The thing I'm saying is that if there are people in the class that has the ability to fly, I won't put "there's a chasm there" for a thing for the party to figure out how to cross, since it's not interesting it's just "someone casts fly". If there has to be a chasm there, because it was previously mentioned, I'll just handwave how the party gets across it once they've all got the ability to fly. This is less "narrative power" and more "limiting creative space for GMs" since a problem you can solve simply with the application of a class ability or spell is not a very interesting problem. Giving the Wizard a hundred options to get from City A to City B doesn't make that class more interesting, since long before they had that many options the party was probably high enough level that nobody was likely to mess with them in transit.
So I'm not saying that the fighter has all sorts of class abilities that solve problems by themselves, since that's obviously not the case, I just don't think it's right to call that "narrative power." There's more narrative power (in the sense of a player's ability to influence the direction the narrative goes in) in just "deciding what is best to attempt next" and "roleplaying encounters with NPCs" than there is in 9 levels of wizard spells, IMO.
You stop that!!! Logical reasoning has no place here!!!!!
Let me start off by saying that I think there is some room to improve the fighter I'm not going to restate my complete list of minor fixes because I've already posted it several other places (as has every possible argument on this ever).
Teleport vrs Walking Teleport instant+++ somewhat dangerous- requires knowledge of location- uses a spell slot-(lets just throw that on every spell save me time) can be magically prevented- Walking takes WAY longer--- Chance to gain extra xp and loot from random encounters++ DM is probably not going to give you an impossible time sensitive mission if he knows you can't teleport+
Blend in with locals. alter self all the way to Shapechange <overkill much> is there s kill that makes you a better liar aside form flat +4 charisma? vrs bluff and disguise skills. results can be higher with the skills but the magic can infiltrate crazier looking societies.
Don't understand Language, toungues/speak language vrs Speak language skill. Obviously one would be useful immediately while the other you might even have to level first. spell slot vrs having it forever
Want to know what npc is really thinking? Read thoughts vrs Sense motive. Read thoughts more exact but requires saving throw and very noticeable that you are casting a spell. (you can alleviate with metamagic) Magic can be blocked and immunity is possible. Skill does not attract attention and can not generally by immune to but can resisted.
Fears and desires. definitely Creepy. <Various spells> vrs Sense motive, intimidate, Diplomacy.
Someone to talk to various spells vrs Diplomacy.
Prediction. Flip a coin vrs divination (lets face it divinations aren't perfect.) Knowledge checks can help as well and diplomacy again.
Oh and Almost forgot the chasm. Craft: engineering so you can build a bridge, or a catapult if your a real man. Also im sure climb and acrobatics could come in somewhere.
The biggest thing Id say is magic is faster. Things get done quicker. Sometimes even if the mage has to stop and rest for the night and memorize spell next day. All the scenarios can be done by mundane skills however. Scale is lower and maybe not as efficient but it can be done.
The actual thing I would like to see changed is more impressive things being capable at higher levels Samson Hercules type stuff.Most problems I full belief can be fixed by improving the skill system. and maybe giving the fight 2 more skill points per level and adding one or two other skills as class skills.
However if you want the fighter made into a different kind of mage then we don't see eye to eye.
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Things that have been said a thousand times:
It's the Tome of Battle problem all over again. A lot of people have this expectation that the Fighter is the Rugged Everyman, who doesn't have innate supernatural abilities, and gets the job done with guts and determination.
If you give him all those fancy toys, he won't "feel like a Fighter anymore", and worse, if he starts doing things spellcasters can do, you'll start hearing complaints about how 'broken' the Fighter is.
If you make a new class that is basically a Fighter with these toys, then people will gripe that the new class (we'll call it a 'Warblade', maybe) is an all out replacement, and they won't be happy about that either.
In a lot of people's minds, the martial/caster disparity makes perfect sense. OF COURSE Mr. Wizard can fly, teleport, and do 6 impossible things before breakfast. He has MAGIC!
But but, see, it's balanced because he can't fight his way out of a paper bag. The Doctor needs his Companion, see?
All the while failing to realize that, from the very beginning, the Wizard had magic to overcome his weaknesses, and every new level of spells gives him more and better options.
The Fighter does not have the same ability to overcome his limitations. Combat Feats only go so far. Yes, the Fighter can get the ability to trip a guy, slap him on the way down TWICE (Vicious Stomp + Combat Reflexes), then slap him again on the way up. Or with magic (Fortuitous weapon) slap him THREE times on the way down and once again on the way up.
Or the Wizard can cast Web/Stinking Cloud/Solid Fog/Black Tentacles/Create Whatever Pit/Sleet Storm...
The Fighter can spend tons of Feats to be able to take ONE GUY apart. Or maybe several guys within reach with Whirlwind Attack or Great Cleave. The Wizard can take ENTIRE ROOMS apart.
Oh but the Fighter can do it all day! Maybe. As long as he has magical support like buffs and heals.
The game is based around this dichotomy, and it's annoying. Worse, a lot of the people that play the game refuse to even see a problem, even if presented with undeniable proof. "Oh any Wizard who played like that would get kicked from my table, so it doesn't matter".
You can't fix the disparity between Fighter and Wizard, it's hard-coded into the game and many who play it. I've accepted that.
What I think needs to be done to make the Fighter better, is adjust the baseline of what a fighting man can do. Right now, the system says you can't throw a punch if another guy has so much as a needle in hand without provoking an AoO. Nobody can grapple, trip, or push people without any kind of baseline proficiency in combat. You can't stop someone trying to step away from you. You can't attack someone while running past them. You can't even throw a haymaker without special training!
But what if...we lived in a world where everyone could throw punches, grapple, trip, or power attack? Would the Fighter be better, now that he doesn't have to use all of his Feats to establish baseline ability? If Combat Expertise and Power Attack were just special actions everyone could make?
I think so. Because the problem with Feat chains and combinations is that it takes time to get everything you need. And you're still locked into one trick by the time the Wizard starts flying and throwing down 20' radius fire blasts.
Better Skills would be nice. Better saves nicer. More self-sustainability even better. Like a martial "second wind" to regain some hit points and morale. A "momentum shift" or "rally" ability.
But at the end of the day, stop balancing combat Feats vs. spells with the "well he can do it all day" argument! That ship has sailed, reached the edge of the world, sailed off, and is now a Spelljammer making raids on other worlds.
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Before people continue to post walls of uninformed text, we need to establish what the 'fighter' is.
Are we talking about RPG Line only releases? All Paizo, including Companion line releases? PFS legal choices only? We can't logically discuss the merits of the class or its options if we aren't talking about the same thing.
Making statements like "the fighter has no access to magic and can't do anything against magic and can't fly but the barbarian can!!!!" is so largely disingenuous that it turns my stomach. People keep doing it, and I keep pointing it out, and I ended up naming a fallacy after myself years ago and whether or not you wanna take personal shots at me, I'm still right about it.
Narrative power needs to be defined. Again, months ago we had that discussion and I started a thread about that because it seems to be this magical little word that always proves the fighter is awful no matter what.
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The biggest thing Id say is magic is faster. Things get done quicker.
No, the biggest thing is that spells don't require you to invest a scarce recource* every level - you pick up Teleport and are instantly awesome at long range travel. Oh, and in case you didn't know, casters have skills (and feats and items), too (and more skill ranks than a fighter). It's basically "Anything you can do, I can do better!"
*) After a few levels, low level spell slots are no longer scarce.
Narrative power needs to be defined. Again, months ago we had that discussion and I started a thread about that because it seems to be this magical little word that always proves the fighter is awful no matter what.
Narrative power means shaping the story instead of merely following it. Blackwaltzomega put it pretty good when he said "[the ability to] change the rules of the story the GM is telling to better suit their desires".
Narrative power is the ability to not follow the dungeon crawl, but to fly, teleport, sneak, burrow etc. to the objectiv instead. Narrative power is the ability to grab the key from the guardhouse (through the window via mage hand, by stealthing in, whatever) instead of dealing with the guard. Narrative power is the ability to fly, teleport, or create a bridge across the chasm to not deal with the guarded/trapped/breaking-apart-once-you-are-in-the-middle bridge. And yes, narrative power can also be killing the enemy before he can use the intended tactics (like calling for backup or teleporting away).
A regular fighter would have to fight his way through the dungeon, kill the bridge troll, bribe the guard, and deal with the called backup. A fighter with more skill ranks might instead be able to bluff the guard and thus keep his money - that's a greater narrative power.
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Making statements like "the fighter has no access to magic and can't do anything against magic and can't fly but the barbarian can!!!!" is so largely disingenuous that it turns my stomach. People keep doing it, and I keep pointing it out, and I ended up naming a fallacy after myself years ago and whether or not you wanna take personal shots at me, I'm still right about it.
It's not that disingenuous. Yes, there are item mastery feats, but those also aren't fighter specific, so you're back to "the fighter has nothing unique to call his own to grant him versatility. He's at best able to do what others can, and nothing above that." They also come online really late & are low power by comparison (level 8 for 1/day flight, 2 if you take another feat, vs a wizard's level 5, augmented by high intelligence, scrolls or pearls of power to get it more than once per day).
Seriously, looking at everything that makes the fighter "passable" from all the splat books. Why do they take so long? I find it more that the fighter is in the worst spot early levels, because anything unique and interesting for him doesn't come online until level 6+ (maybe not in combat specifically, but as a character). You don't get your bonus skill points from versatile training until at least level 5, and even then you're at 4 / level (restricted) base, until level 9. Or play the barbarian and start with 4 / level. Or the ranger and start with 6 / level. You don't need to wait 9 levels to have that kind of versatility. This is why I complain that all these feats break character progression. Classes should scale up regularly as they level, not hit massive spikes. It's uncomfortable.
But I agree with Bob has been saying: "Narrative Power" is more about the options one has available to them when approaching a problem. Skills open options. Spells open options. Features (which tend to just act like spells or skill bonuses in a lot of ways) open options. But the fighter doesn't get any of these in a meaningful or effective way.
And as Blackwaltzomega mentioned, the difference in ability of a party with spellcasters vs one without is enormous, and it is really difficult to balance such large discrepancies.
Narrative power is...
This.
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Again, Red Hand of Doom has an explicit "ticking clock" while the enemy marches forwards. Doing it like the Wizard but slower means it might not get done before everyone dies.
I really think that running an adventure where the players literally cannot get past the challenge without magic or a class ability that they could have, but don't, is bad GMing. Like if in order to prevent catastrophe, the party needs to cross an ocean in a week, but they don't happen to have magic available to do that, you either make magic available (there's a wizard who will let you pay him to cast the spell) or you extend the timetable.
Telling the party "y'all failed because none of you elected to play a wizard" is not something I'm interested in doing. It's fine to run an adventure that's written like that, but when your party consists of characters that are largely incompatible with the written narrative, you have to change it (this is part of why I don't run pre-written stuff, since I have to change so much of it anyway.)
As a player, I honestly have more fun when there's not just "a spell I can cast for that" and I have think about what to do instead.
Making statements like "the fighter has no access to magic and can't do anything against magic and can't fly but the barbarian can!!!!" is so largely disingenuous that it turns my stomach. People keep doing it, and I keep pointing it out, and I ended up naming a fallacy after myself years ago and whether or not you wanna take personal shots at me, I'm still right about it.It's not that disingenuous. Yes, there are item mastery feats, but those also aren't fighter specific, so you're back to "the fighter has nothing unique to call his own to grant him versatility. He's at best able to do what others can, and nothing above that." They also come online really late & are low power by comparison (level 8 for 1/day flight, 2 if you take another feat, vs a wizard's level 5, augmented by high intelligence, scrolls or pearls of power to get it more than once per day).
Seriously, looking at everything that makes the fighter "passable" from all the splat books. Why do they take so long? I find it more that the fighter is in the worst spot early levels, because anything unique and interesting for him doesn't come online until level 6+ (maybe not in combat specifically, but as a character). You don't get your bonus skill points from versatile training until at least level 5, and even then you're at 4 / level (restricted) base, until level 9. Or play the barbarian and start with 4 / level. Or the ranger and start with 6 / level. You don't need to wait 9 levels to have that kind of versatility. This is why I complain that all these feats break character progression. Classes should scale up regularly as they level, not hit massive spikes. It's uncomfortable.
But I agree with Bob has been saying: "Narrative Power" is more about the options one has available to them when approaching a problem. Skills open options. Spells open options. Features (which tend to just act like spells or skill bonuses in a lot of ways) open options. But the fighter doesn't get any of these in a...
Fighters can get all day flight at the same level anyone else can afford +4 (total) armor.
They can start the process as early as 3rd level, through the Celestial Armor and Celestial Shield which when used in conjunction can give the fighter Overland Flight cast at 9th level (for 9 hours of flight, one hour longer than the game's assumed work day). We can bring up Celestial Plate and all the different ways to achieve it and what its final stats would be, but Master Armorer gives you all the tools you need with either one feat, or one forgoing of Armor Training at or beyond 7th* level (*or 3rd and beyond with a Sash of the War Champion).
He also could take the Item Mastery feat with 4 ranks in UMD or nab it 1/day with the previously mentioned Barroom Brawler or Warrior Spirit/Training property options.
There is a multitude of different ways to get a multitude of different options to accomplish the same thing that people are complaining about not having. Sure, it requires you to scour over the source books, and that's a royal pain. That royal pain is the real problem with the class overall.
Does that satisfy narrative power? I'm pretty sure that it should, all things considered (including options from splat books, which often get overlooked or ignored because reasons).
Also, while scouring through Villain Codex I found this gem:
You are particularly devious, and can master more skills
than others in the same amount of time.
Benefit: You gain 1 additional skill point per Hit Die.
When you take this feat, you gain a number of skill points
equal to your Hit Dice right away, and every time your Hit
Dice increase in the future, you will gain an additional skill
point as well.
Toughness for skills, though it's a general feat.
Before people continue to post walls of uninformed text, we need to establish what the 'fighter' is.
Are we talking about RPG Line only releases? All Paizo, including Companion line releases? PFS legal choices only? We can't logically discuss the merits of the class or its options if we aren't talking about the same thing.
Making statements like "the fighter has no access to magic and can't do anything against magic and can't fly but the barbarian can!!!!" is so largely disingenuous that it turns my stomach. People keep doing it, and I keep pointing it out, and I ended up naming a fallacy after myself years ago and whether or not you wanna take personal shots at me, I'm still right about it.
Oh, the fighter can do some of those things with the splatbooks. However, the schrodinger's fighter you've outlined is basically a fighter who can cast a spell that gives him a skill or lets him fly about three times a day at level 9ish. The skill application has its uses, but immediate pitfalls become clear in that it only gives you the option to attempt a roll on a skill you didn't have before whereas a lot of actual spells bypass the skill roll entirely or give an enormous bonus to the attempt whereas the fighter has spent a very tightly restricted resource to break even with a class that had an adequate number of skill ranks in the first place, and he is doing this by finessing the retraining rules in a way many GMs will get pissy about because it sounds off-color even though it's clearly not broken. Practically speaking, without the Gloves of Dueling Warrior Spirit is NOT something you can use on a regular basis compared to spell slots, which is annoying because it's a resource THAT LIMITED to still be less efficient than just using magic.
So yes, well done, you've pointed out Warrior Spirit exists and can be used to temporarily fake having good skills or the ability to fly a couple times a day. I'm not repeating a fallacy to say that's still not very impressive and...
.... dude what? The barbarian also can only use flight a few times per day with his class features.... So I guess we don't talk about that? Also the fighter has way better ways to access flight, through either making celestial armor or that newer armor enchant that literally gives him wings. (only works on heavy armor)
RADIANT FLIGHT PRICE
+15,000 GP
AURA moderate transmutation CL 10th
On command, the wearer of a suit of radiant flight armor can
conjure a pair of batlike wings from her back that shed light like a
torch. These wings grant a fly speed of 30 (poor maneuverability)
for 10 minutes per day. This duration need not be used
consecutively, but must be used in 1-minute increments. The
radiant flight special ability can be applied only to heavy armor.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST +7,500 GP
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly
10 minutes of flight vs. # of rage rounds of flight?
Also Warrior Spirit isn't the only access to Schrodinger's fighter, there's also Barroom Brawler (with stamina it can be done as a swift action). Do we ignore that? With Barroom Brawler one could even take Abundant Tactics to gain more additional daily uses of itself if you really wanted, it's not useful but it can be done.
You obviously have read some of my posts, but not all of them. Ironic since the post you replied to begins with the words "Before people continue to post walls of uninformed text," I understand that you're frustrated, but dude you didn't even finish reading the thread before you responded.
We also need to bring up the issues with equipment and builds, because when we compare the fighter's narrative power to the barbarian that somehow has superstition, flight, and pounce though his rage powers we kinda don't know what level or power range is going on.
Gloves of Dueling are such an important item that very few fighters function without it, this is a problem for the class and I acknowledge that; but it's kinda always been that way.
hey can start the process as early as 3rd level, through the Celestial Armor and Celestial Shield which when used in conjunction can give the fighter Overland Flight cast at 9th level
I'm reading the shield as CL 7, although I'm unsure how such figures in to the caster level of the spell in such a magic item.
Even so, what player wealth table are you using? You give your fighters 35 thousand gold worth of gear at level 3? And that makes them effective? Sure, turns out anyone can be effective if they have over 10x their expected wealth by level. Going by the suggestions Pathfinder provides (no more than 25% wealth in one item), you shouldn't be running celestial armor until level 12. Now I see you as being disingenuous. (Celestial armor also costs more than +4 armor, so there's that. 22k vs 16k). Celestial also doesn't seem to be a standard enhancement you can add to equipment, as it's just listed as a wonderous item, implying that it can't be crafted without craft wonderous item, but I'm not sure on that. Even so, again, heavily over-equipped if you have a level 3 fight. Add on to that that (I assume) the fighter isn't considered to have the relevant spells, and crafting the celestial shield (assuming you can without craft wonderous item) is a DC17. Not unbeatable, certainly, but without major investment your level 3 (or even 5) fighter is looking at about a 50% chance of success after a solid, uninterrupted two weeks of crafting (and I'm not seeing that come up on most adventures). And again, wealth by level...
Also, he cannot take an item mastery feat without meeting the prerequisites. In the case of fly, fort save of +6, which is at level 8 (unless you're multiclassing a lot).
There is a multitude of different ways to get a multitude of different options to accomplish the same thing that people are complaining about not having.
"I want to fly as a fighter"
"Wear celestial (should be achieved around level 8-12), or take the item mastery feat (same time). MULTIPLE ways."In fairness, I believe a barbarian's flight comes up about the same time, but they can use it more customizably for short instances because it depends on you raging, not on "once per day". Having overland flight would be far more effective in that case though.
But I mean, really, list them. How does a fighter get flight (or dimension door, or similar):
1) Magic items (that anyone can use and are gated by wealth by level).
2) item mastery (not achieved until deep in mid or late game because of high prerequisites, and everyone can use).
3) ...use magic device?
Gloves of Dueling are such an important item that very few fighters function without it, this is a problem for the class and I acknowledge that
And is also gated by wealth by level. I like abundant tactics & how gloves of dueling can augment that (yay synergy) but..."level 8"
As I said, Narrative power, to me, is the capacity to change the rules and parameters of the story the GM's trying to tell.
But there's absolutely nothing the PCs can do that's going to change the parameters of the story more than "the PCs elect to murder a potentially key ally" or "the PCs elect to work with the faction that is ostensibly the bad guys" and every class is able to do that.
Everybody has the ability to simply "not cooperate" with the GM intends to tell and the GM has to roll with that. If the PCs react to "demon hordes are massing to attack your homeland" with "welp, best get everybody we care about to safety and salvage what things of value we can and get to work on building a home in a new place" instead of fighting the demons, or trying to close the portal, or whatever, that's a completely different story.
Having the ability to cast a spell to simply make the problem go away doesn't alter the story so much as eliminate part of it.
hey can start the process as early as 3rd level, through the Celestial Armor and Celestial Shield which when used in conjunction can give the fighter Overland Flight cast at 9th levelI'm reading the shield as CL 7, although I'm unsure how such figures in to the caster level of the spell in such a magic item.
Even so, what player wealth table are you using? You give your fighters 35 thousand gold worth of gear at level 3? And that makes them effective? Sure, turns out anyone can be effective if they have over 10x their expected wealth by level. Going by the suggestions Pathfinder provides (no more than 25% wealth in one item), you shouldn't be running celestial armor until level 12. Now I see you as being disingenuous. (Celestial armor also costs more than +4 armor, so there's that. 22k vs 16k). Celestial also doesn't seem to be a standard enhancement you can add to equipment, as it's just listed as a wonderous item, implying that it can't be crafted without craft wonderous item, but I'm not sure on that. Even so, again, heavily over-equipped if you have a level 3 fight. Add on to that that (I assume) the fighter isn't considered to have the relevant spells, and crafting the celestial shield (assuming you can without craft wonderous item) is a DC17. Not unbeatable, certainly, but without major investment your level 3 (or even 5) fighter is looking at about a 50% chance of success after a solid, uninterrupted two weeks of crafting (and I'm not seeing that come up on most adventures). And again, wealth by level...
Also, he cannot take an item mastery feat without meeting the prerequisites. In the case of fly, fort save of +6, which is at level 8 (unless you're multiclassing a lot).
There is a multitude of different ways to get a multitude of different options to accomplish the same thing that people are complaining about not having."I want to fly as a fighter"
"Wear celestial (should be achieved around level 8-12), or take the item...
Dude what?
Master Armorer can be taken at 3rd level, which starts the process of obtaining the items... as I said.Crafting the items yourself makes them cost half price, you can have the armor by 7th and both the armor and shield by 8th and it'll cost about half your wealth. By 9th or 10th you can have them no problem, even after the 25% wealth inflation.
All spells from items are cast at the minimum caster level, since Overland Flight is 5th level spell, it must be cast at 9th caster level.
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I really think that running an adventure where the players literally cannot get past the challenge without magic or a class ability that they could have, but don't, is bad GMing. Like if in order to prevent catastrophe, the party needs to cross an ocean in a week, but they don't happen to have magic available to do that, you either make magic available (there's a wizard who will let you pay him to cast the spell) or you extend the timetable.
Thing is, sometimes enemies have spellcasting. Sometimes the enemy can just teleport to the location of their evil plan in few seconds. It would be inconsistent if the enemy had a way to get to a location quickly with maximum comfort and low-risk and forgot to use it because "the PC's don't have teleportation".
Or what if it had a reasonable time limit for the adventure that they might have normally accomplished through their travel time, but because of circumstances or following a plot hook that wasn't planned part way through the travel, they end up taking longer than expected.
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To me, weapon mastery stuff like being able to fly and have skill points only opens a tiny number of doors narratively. It basically makes them able to do low-mid level stuff as the maximum they can do narratively (this also applies to barbarian, slayer, etc.).
Thing is, sometimes enemies have spellcasting. Sometimes the enemy can just teleport to the location of their evil plan in few seconds. It would be inconsistent if the enemy had a way to get to a location quickly with maximum comfort and low-risk and forgot to use it because "the PC's don't have teleportation".
Considering that players aren't generally privvy to the inner workings of the antagonist's organization, they don't need to know what sorts of problems the villains had in getting organized, set up, and getting to the place. They just get there when they get there. Just like how you run more tactically savvy antagonists in combat for parties with a lot of hardcore optimizers who like that stuff, and less tactically savvy antagonists for mellower groups you can have more on-the-ball antagonists for the party that solves everything via their wizard, and less on-the-ball antagonists for parties that don't have any 9-level casters.
Or what if it had a reasonable time limit for the adventure that they might have normally accomplished through their travel time, but because of circumstances or following a plot hook that wasn't planned part way through the travel, they end up taking longer than expected.
Sure, that's fine. Having a clock that ticks because the PCs choose to chase bad leads, are indecisive, or can't get their act together is fine. You're reacting to the player's choices within the confines of the game, which is what you supposed to do. What's not okay with me is the adventure saying "whoops, nobody could cast teleport, so you couldn't save the town in time; too bad." I especially don't want the party that wastes time thinking they can just arrive at the last minute because they have a wizard to solve the problem for them.
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Considering that players aren't generally privvy to the inner workings of the antagonist's organization
That heavily depends on how your players act. I've seen players do research into their enemies weaknesses and capabilities. But even when they don't, I know the inner works of the antagonist's organization, and I see no reason to "cheat". It may be other people's playstyle that enemies act in a way beneficial to the players, but to me that'd be inconsistent.
they don't need to know what sorts of problems the villains had in getting organized, set up, and getting to the place. They just get there when they get there. Just like how you run more tactically savvy antagonists in combat for parties with a lot of hardcore optimizers who like that stuff, and less tactically savvy antagonists for mellower groups you can have more on-the-ball antagonists for the party that solves everything via their wizard, and less on-the-ball antagonists for parties that don't have any 9-level casters.
I don't like the idea of "This class is fine as long as you play with kid-gloves", which is what it sounds like you're advocating.
What's not okay with me is the adventure saying "whoops, nobody could cast teleport, so you couldn't save the town in time; too bad."
No one actually suggested that.
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So yes, well done, you've pointed out Warrior Spirit exists and can be used to temporarily fake having good skills or the ability to fly a couple times a day. [That] ain't narrative power.
Actually, it is. A fighter with access to flight has more narrative power than one without.
Is it impressive? No. Overcomplicated and dependant on too many thing? Sure. Is it still miles below casters? Of course!But narrative power isn't a "you have it or you don't" thing, it's relative.
Having the ability to (...) make the problem go away doesn't alter the story so much as eliminate part of it.
So eliminating parts is not an alteration? Also, if you bypass the mooks and are thus in time to save the princess, you now have a grateful NPC hanging around, and the evil guys have to find another way to summon the demon. How is that not an alteration?
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I mean, if you play the game up to level 7 for the first time as a Fighter (and other martials), after that, at your second run, unless you're extremely bad at using magic you would have no reasons at all to play a Fighter again.
It's extremely dull, limited and constricted.
That's wrong with the fighter, and reasons I don't play it. Could I make something extremely good at melee? Probably so. Could I get the same results with probable more skill points using another class, yes, so why use the fighter?
It's like the fighter is trying to establish the idea of "you have a choice" when in reality, nope, you don't.
You still need to take the same feats, I mean, even the ones others get to disregard because of class features (INT13 and such).
Do you like low magic games? Or getting stuck at a 20 feet cliff because you can't jump or just cast Jump? Then I guess play an all fighter party.
Basically, imo, playing a fighter requires more expertise from your party casters, so they know when to buff you so you're not useless and when just ignore you instead.
I mean, if you play the game up to level 7 for the first time as a Fighter (and other martials), after that, at your second run, unless you're extremely bad at using magic you would have no reasons at all to play a Fighter again.
It's extremely dull, limited and constricted.That's wrong with the fighter, and reasons I don't play it. Could I make something extremely good at melee? Probably so. Could I get the same results with probable more skill points using another class, yes, so why use the fighter?
It's like the fighter is trying to establish the idea of "you have a choice" when in reality, nope, you don't.
You still need to take the same feats, I mean, even the ones others get to disregard because of class features (INT13 and such).Do you like low magic games? Or getting stuck at a 20 feet cliff because you can't jump or just cast Jump? Then I guess play an all fighter party.
Basically, imo, playing a fighter requires more expertise from your party casters, so they know when to buff you so you're not useless and when just ignore you instead.
This is painful to read.
"Fighter" is the set of all possible sets of Fighters under all possible rules, weighted by whoever is loudest (or angriest, or maybe just by majority opinion). Schrödinger's Fighter, weighted by what people are likely to see. Unfortunately, this means everyone has their own version, and "Fighter" is also used to refer to specific Fighters made by other people. For instance, when I said the Fighter couldn't fly, I was referring to the hypothetical Fighter someone else was referring to who I made up who was at the levels where Wizards are just learning to Fly themselves.
Narrative power has been defined, repeatedly, with some subtle nuance between the versions but the same general idea. My version was: "Narrative power is your ability, as a player, to influence the story being told." What we're discussing with the Fighter though is not general narrative power, but what specific abilities the Fighter class actually brings to general narrative power. "Can buy a flying carpet" is not a Fighter class ability. "Can make a Celestial Shield for half price" is. "Can roll a Diplomacy roll" is not. "Gets +X to Diplomacy" (I think?) or "gets Diplomacy ranks equal to BAB" is. Any form of narrative power that literally every class can also do is not "class narrative power" and thus irrelevant to a discussion of how much narrative power the Fighter has. Item Mastery absolutely adds to the Fighter... and the Barbarian, and the Ranger, and the Paladin, and the @#$%ing Cleric, who didn't need the help. And everyone but the Barbarian can also get the ability to make any magic item they want, making them even better at Item Mastery.
I agree that writing challenges the players have to do and are impossible for them to do is a bad idea. What if the GM is running a sandbox and the players don't "have" to do anything? If they choose to investigate the rumors of an invading goblin horde, does the horde suddenly slow down so the players can arrive first? Red Hand of Doom is just the easiest published adventure to...
While your post is well composed, your logic fails in multiple spots.
Remember, the fighter can get Item Mastery with an AWT option (and use his weapon for the feat in question.) This makes the fighter more capable of item mastery than pretty much anyone else because the fighter doesn't have to spend the feat, only the ranks in UMD. (Warrior Spirit also let's you grab whatever enhancement you need for said item mastery to function with your weapon for ultimate versatility).
Barbarians do not get heavy armor, so they can't use the Radiant Flight unless they spend resources on being able to wear heavy armor (including taking an archetype).
Additionally, every class but the fighter has to make actual skill and feat investments to craft magic armor. The fighter just has to forgo one of his Armor Training bonuses and he gets the required skills and feats for free. If said armor happens to be the Celestial Armor, or a variant of it (see: Mithral Celestial Plate for a breakdown on how specific magic items can be transferred to different base items) then the fighter has no need for the higher max DEX from armor training anyway (even though he can still move at full speed by that point). Given the WBL dilema, it's fantastic for 7th level, though taking it earlier has the benefit of allowing you to craft your own set of full plate for 1/3 the price, per the crafting rules.
text
Does that mean that if my knowledge about PF is infinite then my fighter has no issues and is as infinitely as good and useful as a Wizard and can face the same CR and problems any Wizard does?
textDoes that mean that if my knowledge about PF is infinite then my fighter has no issues and is as infinitely as good and useful as a Wizard and can face the same CR and problems any Wizard does?
If you replace the word wizard with barbarian then yes.
If you replace the word wizard with barbarian then yes.textDoes that mean that if my knowledge about PF is infinite then my fighter has no issues and is as infinitely as good and useful as a Wizard and can face the same CR and problems any Wizard does?
I guess if that's possible is good enough, I wish I had that system mastery to pull it off.
My most biggest issue with how PF works is most martials either suck at melee or ranged combat. I just can't wrap my head around at not being able to use effectively a bow because I chose melee as my preferred choice.I get I shouldn't be as able as with a melee weapon, but damage weapon you go from 100 to 20 DPR, and it's really sad.
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I feel that feats should be improved, just in general.
A well designed feat should have two components, a hard numerical bonus or effect as well as a general benefit. Some feats look just like traits and vice versa, which overall makes a lot of edge cases useless.
Fighters narrow themselves into a feat hole and have little means to adapt out of it.
"I'm really, REALLY good at using a sword"
"It has DR/bludgeoning!"
"Dang! If only I knew about this 6 levels before!!"
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I feel that feats should be improved, just in general.
A well designed feat should have two components, a hard numerical bonus or effect as well as a general benefit. Some feats look just like traits and vice versa, which overall makes a lot of edge cases useless.
Fighters narrow themselves into a feat hole and have little means to adapt out of it.
"I'm really, REALLY good at using a sword"
"It has DR/bludgeoning!"
"Dang! If only I knew about this 6 levels before!!"
That is exactly the feat I would need in the undead scenario presented in that book. Hopefully I can have a feat for every situation; I'm sure fighter builds work like that- or whatever.
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That is exactly the feat I would need in the undead scenario presented in that book. Hopefully I can have a feat for every situation; I'm sure fighter builds work like that- or whatever.
A big thing about fighters is being able to pick and choose through all the feats.
From the DM side of things, those other feats work great on NPCs that are meant to be weak by comparison or only have niche versatility.
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...you may not have noticed, but I didn't actually use any Barbarian class features. If we have the Fighter giving up WT or AT, then we need to compare to the Barbarian class features (rage powers), and you need to show me anything the Fighter gets that compares to Spell Sunder, Superstition, Strength Surge, or Greater Beast Totem. The Will bonus from raging alone is higher than Armed Bravery until @#$%ing 14th level (at which point the Barbarian gets +4 Will vs enchantment, because why not). That's comparing a class feature the Fighter has to spend something on to something the Barbarian gets...While your post is well composed, your logic fails in multiple spots.
Remember, the fighter can get Item Mastery with an AWT option (and use his weapon for the feat in question.) This makes the fighter more capable of item mastery than pretty much anyone else because the fighter doesn't have to spend the feat, only the ranks in UMD. (Warrior Spirit also let's you grab whatever enhancement you need for said item mastery to function with your weapon for ultimate versatility).
Barbarians do not get heavy armor, so they can't use the Radiant Flight unless they spend resources on being able to wear heavy armor (including taking an archetype).
Additionally, every class but the fighter has to make actual skill and feat investments to craft magic armor. The fighter just has to forgo one of his Armor Training bonuses and he gets the required skills and feats for free. If said armor happens to be the Celestial Armor, or a variant of it (see: Mithral Celestial Plate for a breakdown on how specific magic items can be transferred to different base items) then the fighter has no need for the higher max DEX from armor training anyway (even though he can still move at full speed by that point). Given the WBL dilema, it's fantastic for 7th level, though taking it earlier has the benefit of allowing you to craft your own set of full plate for 1/3 the price, per the crafting rules.
The thing about "giving up class features" is that at the same time you call it a tax, we have to remember that 11 bonus feats is in and of itself a class feature, and in this very thread we've covered that most of the time weapon groups beyond your first are close to useless, unless you plan on switch hitting because the numbers aren't there to support it.
It can't be both sacred and inalienable and also extraneous and useless, that doesn't make sense to me.
There's also legacy to bring up here. The barbarian in the past was taxed skill ranks to learn to read. Fighters didn't. Fighters had a lot more crazy feats in 3.x that more or less duplicated spells (slashing flurry and weapon supremacy come to mind.)
Cavaliers need those skills for ride and handle animal. Really, they only get 2 skills per level when you consider the skill tax required to use their other class features, unless those rules are hand waived.
We should also consider the main differences between barbarians and fighters in that fighters really get AC, and barbarians really don't. Fighters are designed to be AC monsters, and they can be built to be nigh untouchable just in class features (including exclusive feats and their applicable stamina tricks).
I get that fighters want more skills early and without tax, but if that's what you really REALLY want you can get the most skills in the game, even surpassing the rogue, all at the cost of your extraneous weapon groups or MAD inducing armor training. The fact of the matter is, we don't consider that because the options you can take in place of more skills (like armed bravery) are just so much better that it's not considered optimal to build that way. Check out smash from the air, it's a weapon mastery feat, and is a valid option for one of your AWT options.
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That is exactly the feat I would need in the undead scenario presented in that book. Hopefully I can have a feat for every situation; I'm sure fighter builds work like that- or whatever.A big thing about fighters is being able to pick and choose through all the feats.
From the DM side of things, those other feats work great on NPCs that are meant to be weak by comparison or only have niche versatility.
That's actually the purview of Brawlers and a few specific Fighter archetypes.
Brawlers are truly Schrodinger's fighter.