Whelp, time for me to put my foot in my mouth.
On this subject really I would say something I tell people about a bunch of stuff. When I became an adult, I put away childish things. Childish things like giving a damn about people's opinions of me because I am an adult and don't need the approval of others.
Yes I know that is based on what C.S.Lewis said.
I count as part of a bunch of minority things and I honestly don't care about any rights or media interpretations, or lack thereof. I am a person, the same as anyone else. I don't expect to be treated special and have people know about every little self identifier or interest that I have. One of the weird things, which may not be as big a deal as it used to be, I was big into classic star trek. I was a trekkie and kinda still am. Prime directive and all that. Yes media portrays these people as basement dwelling losers and you know what? I don't care. If people believe that, they are not worth my time if they find out about me. I don't hide or flaunt my interest in that, other things, self identifiers, and so on. I just live my life as I want to do it and simply don't listen to people that talk badly about me. I am not a kid anymore and have to learn that not everyone is going to like you. So what? Move on. Are they really worth your ire? For people that are not aware about aspects of my life and what they mean, again, so what? I don't need people to know all the little things about me. Look at me as a whole and judge me as a person, or don't. I don't really care.
Just learn to be okay with yourself and realize that all that stuff, or lack of stuff other people say doesn't matter. Just be you and live your life. I don't need positive interpretation of my interests on tv or in movies to be ok with what I am. I'm ok with myself and that is the only thing that really matters for that stuff. I find if someone is desperate for some media attention, they are just doing it for the attention or are unhappy with what they are....
Do you belong to a population that faces the prospect of violence more than the average? Do you belong to a population that is more likely to be roughly treated by police than the assumed norm? Are you a gender orientation that faces a higher degree of assault and murder just because of what you are, or how you dress? Or do have to deal with people who feel you don't "smile enough" as you get catcalls while walking down the street?
If the answer to all of these is no, than congratulations, you are most likely in the privilege of being a white male which can walk away from problems the rest of society has no choice but to deal with. And so you can have the luxury of not caring because you're assumed to be better than the rest by default.
I can imagine parents (especially mothers) putting high pressure on their asexual child, to make sure the family line continues.
Or "especially fathers". The family name usually is carried from the father to the son. and a large part of the world has encoded male primogeniture into the legal system. Britain and the rest of the Commonwealth nations, for example just recently allowed the royal family line to descend through both males and females without giving preference to males.
]And yet there are such people. And they have such conversations.
I know. I'm one of them. Such conversations are pretty rare though, and most people don't believe me anyway.
They realize they're asexual.
Well, most people start out that way. It's a slow realization that it's not going to kick on for you (which means you're free to make fun of everyone else acting weird for love and start the National Geographic narration when someone's about to do something stupid.)
They struggle with it.
This happens in real life. I can't see why it can't happen in fiction.
Why should it happen in fiction? How is any individual work of fiction made better by it's inclusion?
Isn't this in fact a good part of what some have talked about as being part of the asexual experience: denial, you're just a late bloomer, you must be gay, etc.
The first is a legit possibility. I mean exactly at what age is that supposed to kick on?
More fundamentally, break show, don't tell if you have to. Introspective fiction is a thing. There's plenty of fiction that shows us a character's thoughts or self doubts, even in ways that might not be seen by an outside observer.
Have to for what? For what goal? What purpose?
Look, no one not depicting any particular minority group is doing something wrong. Its not exclusion or some other term we're going to make up to tell people they're bad and doing bad things. Its just not writing something thats a PITA to write for no discernible purpose.
|
I'm going to assume that you only intend all that to only apply to minor little things like being a trekkie. Not to the larger issues that draw hate crimes and serious discrimination. "Corrective rape" was brought up earlier as something that's done to asexuals. Being ok with yourself doesn't protect you from abuse like that. Nor does it help LGBT kids thrown out of their homes and living on the streets because their parents think the Bible demands it.
And of course, even on the smaller stuff, much of it is the process of growing up. Having representation and seeing people like you helps kids get to the point where they can accept themselves for what they are. It's important. Even if adults can get past it.
Almost everyone deviates from the so called, ephemeral "norm" in some ways. Some such deviations do put a person in more dangerous or unpleasant situations during his or her life, more so than others.
However, I went through my entire life so far without hearing about a single crime or act of discrimination done to anyone because of asexuality. misunderstandings, sure. people having to explain themselves over and over and getting tired of it, sure. But actual discrimination? Hate crimes? Oppression? Not really.
Proportions and perspective are important. I truly do believe that being asexual is harder in some ways (easier in other ways, too). I also truly do not believe this merits a social campaign for change, and most certainly not the combative and loud nature of such campaigns that I have seen. There are better ways to feel validated than to make rallies and "educate" strangers.
However, I went through my entire life so far without hearing about a single crime or act of discrimination done to anyone because of asexuality. misunderstandings, sure. people having to explain themselves over and over and getting tired of it, sure. But actual discrimination? Hate crimes? Oppression? Not really.
Edit: Mostly complaining about social sanction, but a couple mentions of assault.
Edit part two electric boogaloo: Not violence, but actual academic research showing prejudice against Asexuals.
|
|
However, I went through my entire life so far without hearing about a single crime or act of discrimination done to anyone because of asexuality. misunderstandings, sure. people having to explain themselves over and over and getting tired of it, sure. But actual discrimination? Hate crimes? Oppression? Not really.
Edit: Mostly complaining about social sanction, but a couple mentions of assault.
Edit part two electric boogaloo: Not violence, but actual academic research showing prejudice against Asexuals.
I looked at the academic research. Of course it is not the research itself, just a summary of the conclusions, but I find it very lacking. To the extent of my understanding the research was a questionnaire that people answered. Set aside that I don't know if the methodology is sound or not because I do not have access to the paper itself, the findings do not refer to any real documented case of acts of violence or discrimination - just conjunction from how people answered some theoretical questions on a page. Not to be derisive, but this single paper is really far away from convincing me that discrimination against asexuals is a real thing. I can probably conduct a similar research that shows discrimination against redheads, for example.
As for the main article - I have to say that there was a part in it that seriously confirmed my bias - that all asexual activists I know are maintaining the illusion of some grand social struggle for change mostly because that's what the people in their social spheres (mainly LGBT ommunity) are doing:
Still, as she discovered more about herself, Brooks found a safe and familiar home in the LGBT community. Finding a passion for activism, she became a vocal and active advocate for marriage equality, organizing and attending rallies and conferences to fight for the cause.
But after discovering AVEN and the asexual community in 2008 (a revelation Brooks describes as “very powerful”), she said she was stunned and unnerved by the lack of asexual visibility from both inside and outside the LGBT community, and by the skepticism and criticism she faced as a newly identified ace.
“I was getting a lot of push-back from the LGBT community,” she said, her voice rising. “I was told that asexuals can’t exist, that asexuals should stop trying to pretend that we’re special. Some people in the LGBT community even told me that asexuals are trying to ‘co-opt the movement.’”
Dissatisfied with what was and wasn’t being said, Brooks, currently a student at California State University, Fullerton, became an activist for the emerging asexual movement.
This woman "found a passion for activism" and was drawn to the asexual movement not because she was discriminated against in any way, but because she was looked down upon by her fellow LGBT activists. I understand this may not be the case for everybody who's an asexual activist, but it is *exactly* my experience with that community so far.
And as for the section about rape attempts - honestly, from what I see, this is more about men raping women than about heterosexuals raping asexuals. Nuns have been raped for very similar "justifications" - for some men, the idea of a woman who doesn't want sex at all is like some sort of a challenge. Not to take away from the horror of sexual assault, but I don't think that this needs to be addressed as a separate issue from the overall problem of sexual violence.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
for some men, the idea of a woman who doesn't want sex at all is like some sort of a challenge.
That describes all asexual women. That's kind of the point.
It's also important to note that "corrective" rape happens to men as well.
|
|
for some men, the idea of a woman who doesn't want sex at all is like some sort of a challenge.That describes all asexual women. That's kind of the point.
It's also important to note that "corrective" rape happens to men as well.
Right. What I'm saying is that I don't see enough of a distinction between an asexual woman being sexually assaulted and just any other woman being sexually assaulted for not appearing to want sex enough. It feels to me like differentiating violent crime caused by drinking beer from violent crime caused by drinking vodka. Many people choose to abstinent from sex for any number of reasons, and asexuals are a rather small subset of them. Inventing a term for sexual assault that's directed at them and turning it into a social struggle feels to me like a purposeful and self inflicted ignorance of the larger problem.
As for corrective rape inflicted on men - I'm just going to assume that like any other context for rape, men are more rarely victims of it than women. And I'll say the same thing about it - that "corrective rape" is just a name given for rape when it happens to asexuals, and that it is part of a broader type of sexual assualt fueled by the attacker's frustration with the apparent lack of interest in sex from the attacked.
It's also important to note that "corrective" rape happens to men as well.
For a myriad of reasons the odds of that happening are astronomically lower.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Corrective rape is a deliberate attempt to "fix" someone
Or a lame excuse used by the lowest dregs of humanity to do what they were going to do anyway.
]Are you actually saying it's impossible to write an asexual character, even if the character is open and explicit about it?I don't think it can be done well. You're going to almost have to break show don't tell.
I think it's even harder in young adult fiction. If someone says "i don't like girls and i never will" that's a really odd thing to work into a conversation, its something the character doesn't know yet, may be mistaken as characterization that the character is still immature or gay.
The main character in the Deed of Paksennarion series is asexual. It was remarkably easy to portray the character as such.
Corrective rape is a deliberate attempt to "fix" someoneOr a lame excuse used by the lowest dregs of humanity to do what they were going to do anyway.In some cases yes.
But it's like any hate crime. Some people get murdered because they're gay. Some people who aren't gay also get murdered. Some gay people get murdered for other reasons. The murderers are all pretty much scum. And yet it's worth considering gay-bashing murders separately and not just waving them away as "The murderer was scum. It was just an excuse to kill somebody."
Even if it's just an excuse and I don't think it always is, it might be an excuse that lets the rapist justify it to themselves, when they might not have done so otherwise. Or it might just determine how they pick their targets. Either way, it still can matter.
There was a woman who was beaten up because she was assumed to be a transexual because her hair was short.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Obviously, this is a different subject, but I think some of the points in Lindsay's essay apply to both camps. Like asexuality, bisexuality is an orientation that seems to struggle with acknowledgement and legitimacy as much as with normal, easily identified discrimination.
Otherwise, I don't have anything to add here except that I agree with 137ben
|
There is an upcoming film that wont help the asexual cause soon. Its about a kid in his early twenties who writes books about how to be successful by not thinking about sex. Turns out he had a benign tumor that stunted his puberty and once its removed hilarity ensues as his sexuality comes to head.......because you know if you are asexual something must be wrong with you..../facepalm
I cant find the name by searching so its probably a straight to video comedy. I know I saw a trailer that had my eyes rolling.
|
|
Corrective rape is a deliberate attempt to "fix" someoneOr a lame excuse used by the lowest dregs of humanity to do what they were going to do anyway.In some cases yes.
But it's like any hate crime. Some people get murdered because they're gay. Some people who aren't gay also get murdered. Some gay people get murdered for other reasons. The murderers are all pretty much scum. And yet it's worth considering gay-bashing murders separately and not just waving them away as "The murderer was scum. It was just an excuse to kill somebody."
Even if it's just an excuse and I don't think it always is, it might be an excuse that lets the rapist justify it to themselves, when they might not have done so otherwise. Or it might just determine how they pick their targets. Either way, it still can matter.
Here's the thing: it's about the numbers. Sexual assault unfortunately happens to many people and for many people. Among sexual predators, a not uncommon excuse is that they felt taunted by the victim's apparent disinterest in the attacker or in everyone in general. Some of those attacked for these reasons really are uninterested in sex (in other cases the disinterest is either a fabrication or a misled conviction on the part of the attacker). Among those, some are religious, some are in some sort of vulnerable emotional circumstances, some may have preferences that are hard to meet, and some are asexuals. There are many reasons to be uninterested in sex.
So pointing to "corrective rape" as an oppression labeled against asexuals is moot in my opinion. Yes, it is a dreadful act of violence they might suffer that would happen to them because of their sexual orientation... but then, almost everyone have some characteristic or another that might make them an appealing target to rapists. A rapist may choose his victim because she has blue eyes and freckles. Do the blue eyed freckled women need to raise awareness to their plight? Do they need to protest and fight for their rights?
Non-discrimination clauses will help asexual people in most legal areas, but I find that most issues facing the asexual community today are purely societal and cannot be fixed with laws. I think exposure and visibility coupled with time would be for the best.
Do the blue eyed freckled women need to raise awareness to their plight? Do they need to protest and fight for their rights?
Of course they do. why would anyone think they shouldn't?
There was a woman who was beaten up because she was assumed to be a transexual because her hair was short.Corrective rape is a deliberate attempt to "fix" someoneOr a lame excuse used by the lowest dregs of humanity to do what they were going to do anyway.In some cases yes.
But it's like any hate crime. Some people get murdered because they're gay. Some people who aren't gay also get murdered. Some gay people get murdered for other reasons. The murderers are all pretty much scum. And yet it's worth considering gay-bashing murders separately and not just waving them away as "The murderer was scum. It was just an excuse to kill somebody."
Even if it's just an excuse and I don't think it always is, it might be an excuse that lets the rapist justify it to themselves, when they might not have done so otherwise. Or it might just determine how they pick their targets. Either way, it still can matter.
Motivation seems to be a consideration for sentencing but otherwise murdered is murdered. The victim is still taking a permanent dirt nap and not waking up.
But thinking about it. This guy murdered because his victim was perceived to be gay. This guy murdered because he suddenly got that angry at his victim.
Seems to me that considering motivation for the act says nothing about likelihood of recidivism or makes either act less heinous/justifiable.
Murder seems like murder to me. Someone help me out here. I'm stuck.
It's called extenuating circumstances... Or to put it more ugly, the crime was justified because the victim provoked the murderer by existing.
Human evolution stopped being Darwinian (or wholly Darwinian) the moment we gained consciousness and abstract thinking. Sociology trumps biology but only if we want it to.
Absolute Horsefeathers.
Your brain is not under your total control the second you gain consciousness. We are still emotionally driven beings. the more we look into it the more we see how irrational people are.
Every time sociology gets into direct opposition with biology sociology gets its rear end kicked. It's like having a pet tiger: you can probably train it to do what you want IF you can work with its natural tendencies somehow, but if you try to just yank it somewhere you're going to get mauled. You have to "hack" the brain to get it to do what you want and that means recognizing what it is, and how it works.
And that means accepting that we are biological organisms acting on biologically driven instincts that helped our ancestors survive and reproduce saber toothed tigers, cave bears, and our other ancestors with sharp pointy objects. If you try to make policy around the fake idea that humans are born as blank slates you are going to faceplant, badly.
Nothing was ignored. Bigger, darker, bolder horse feathers do not simply stop being horse feathers. Nor does not responding to the explanation for why they are horsefeathers stop them from being horsefeathers.
Consider a lesser crime, because I think it's easier to see the distinction there: If I spray paint my tag or even an obscene phrase on the wall of a local store - that's simple vandalism. Minor property crime.
If I spray paint a swastika on a synagogue, that's not just a simple property, even though it's basically the same act. It's a threat to the whole Jewish community.
absolutely not. One is vandalism one is vandalism and menacing.
]One of them is a hate crime. And isn't that essentially what I said?
I dislike hate crimes. I really don't like punishment for what's in someone's head, rather what they're doing. You don't need to make that symbol on that building about motive (a hate crime) , you can make it about meaning (menacing)
I understand that we needed federal hate crime laws to get around jury nullification
Human evolution stopped being Darwinian (or wholly Darwinian) the moment we gained consciousness and abstract thinking. Sociology trumps biology but only if we want it to.
Every time sociology gets into direct opposition with biology sociology gets its rear end kicked.
Monogamy. Sociology trumping biology on a pretty widespread scale.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
~Monogamy...~
~do do de do do...~
Monogamy. Sociology trumping biology on a pretty widespread scale.
.....
are we watching the same fight?
Just pointing out that sociology does not always lose to biology with higher reasoning life.
Just pointing out that sociology does not always lose to biology with higher reasoning life.
You might want to try an example that makes your case and not mine.
It's not about the individual. It's a numbers game. Monogomy is often touted but rarely followed in either humans or many "monogamous" animals.
What thejeff said. A loose tendency towards monogamy is actually very biologically valuable for longer-lived species.
Like, serial monogamy? 'Cause, just speaking from my anecdotal life experience, that's what most human beings engage in.
I had a few courses with Ryne Palombit, the primatologist who did the research debunking the traditional belief in gibbon (exclusive) monogamy. I believe he was the first to observe and document "cheating".