^^^
I frequently see homebrew cantrips that are too strong. The problem with more powerful 0-level spells are:
1) They're at-will abilities in a game that revolves around having limited daily resources.
2) They're abilities you get at 1st level.
- Steal from 5th Edition. Those are pretty strong. You'll probably want to steal something nice for martials too, though.
- Steal from Kineticist. The basic utility talents are bundles of cantrips.
- Steal from 5th Edition. Those are pretty strong. You'll probably want to steal something nice for martials too, though.
- Steal from Kineticist. The basic utility talents are bundles of cantrips.
5E totally re-balanced spellcasting to enable stronger cantrips. Cantrips are a significant portion of a caster's power in 5E to the point where the game heavily restricts how many a caster can have. Contrast with PF, where most spellcasters learn all cantrips for free.
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They're not meant to be powerful.
Zero level spells aren't supposed to be powerful, since they're unlimited use.
They weren't very strong even when they weren't unlimited.
^^^
Why would you want stronger 0-level spells?
- Steal from 5th Edition. Those are pretty strong.
I think the strongest 5E cantrips should be bumped up to 1st level spells if imported into the PF RPG. Other considerations probably need also be made for some of them.
Consider
— FIREBOLT —
1st Evocation
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You hurl a mote of fire at a creature or object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 fire damage. A flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being worn or carried.
This spell's damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).
As a cantrip, this is probably too powerful (and spamming this all day might get old). But, as a 1st level spell, it could work nicely.
I frequently see homebrew cantrips that are too strong. The problem with more powerful 0-level spells are:
1) They're at-will abilities in a game that revolves around having limited daily resources.
2) They're abilities you get at 1st level.
Valid points.
^^^Why would you want stronger 0-level spells?
I guess I like the idea of a useful power, like a magic missile that does't level or mage armor
I guess I like the idea of a useful power, like a magic missile that does't level or mage armor
So you want to take some first level spells and make them even more powerful by giving everyone unlimited use of those spells each day?
What makes cantrips interesting is their limited power.
Players need to use some imagination to use them with any effectiveness (stealthily drench the barbarian to create a distraction in the inn etc etc).
Simply upping the strength so players obsessed with making things explode can have unlimited spells kind of misses the point.
Sneak on touch cantrips is an idea too;
Ray of frost, Inqusitor's brand spell, etc
- Steal from 5th Edition. Those are pretty strong.I think the strongest 5E cantrips should be bumped up to 1st level spells if imported into the PF RPG. Other considerations probably need also be made for some of them.
Consider
— FIREBOLT —
1st EvocationCasting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: InstantaneousYou hurl a mote of fire at a creature or object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 fire damage. A flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being worn or carried.
This spell's damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).
As a cantrip, this is probably too powerful (and spamming this all day might get old). But, as a 1st level spell, it could work nicely.
Give a save Reflex Negate too and it becomes Cantrip worthy.
A reflex save to negate in addition to the "to hit" roll?
Is there any precedence for that?
Something you could do, as either a player or GM, is see about getting "upgradable" cantrips. That is, allow cantrips to scale in power as CL increases. If the GM is looking to simply power-up spellcaster's weaker options, they could rule that all spellcasters automatically get upgrades to all cantrips at various intervals. Otherwise, there could also be a feat added along the lines of:
Cantrip Mastery
Your skill in the basics of magic are great, and only grow in time.
Prerequisites:
Ability to cast 0-level spells, CL 5
Choose 1 0-level spell you are capable of casting. This cantrip now increases in power proportionally to your CL. The exact nature of this increased power should be decided upon between you and your GM.
Possibly OP, admittedly, but it also depends on how powerful the upgraded cantrips are. In any case, it's unlikely to be more powerful than 3.5's Reserve Feats.
Some ideas for how cantrips could be upgraded (beyond just raising save DCs) : (And yes, I do realize some cantrips are already a bit on the powerful side, but that's not the point. OP wanted more powerful cantrips, so these are just suggestions)
Acid Splash: the acid could deal more damage, or maybe be less affected by hardness/acid resistance/1/2 damage.
Arcane Mark: You could know the approximate distance and direction to things marked, or perhaps it could glow, write more than just your personal rune, etc.
Bleed: Inflict bleed damage
Dancing Lights: Create more lights
Daze: Increase the HD limit, allow for more creature types
Detect Magic/Poison/Radiation: Duration other than concentration, granting a faint sense of nearby magic/poison/radiation for a scaling amount of time.
Disrupt Undead: Damage more undead, deal more damage
Flare: Higher penalties inflicted
Ghost sound: already scales, but could be used to create intelligible speech
Haunted Fey Image: Increased DR, make it last longer than 1 hit
Light: Increased radius of light, make it shine in different colors
Mage Hand: Increased weight limit, carry magic items
Mending: Heals more damage, faster casting time
Message: Include more creatures with 1 casting, increased range, telepathic communication
Open/Close: Increase size of openable doors, unlock basic locks
Prestidigitation: Changes last longer, more powerful effects
Ray of Frost: Temporarily lowers hardness, extinguishes fires
And so on...
the thing is in 5th there is no touch ac so all attacks are against normal ac and anything brought in from 5th even if it is a "touch" attack would be against normal acProbably not exactly, although there is a semi-precedent in Cure/Inflict Wounds, Heal/Harm, and Chill Touch which are melee touch attacks with follow-up Will or Fortitude saves to reduce effects.A reflex save to negate in addition to the "to hit" roll?
Is there any precedence for that?
I think part of the reason there's no touch AC in 5E is that all classes use the same proficiency bonus for attack rolls. Without having all the PF classes using the same BAB, I think it'd be better to treat attack rolls for spells as PF does and make them versus touch AC.
Strong cantrips are fine in 5th edition because the system balance takes them into account.
I would not recomend doing so for Pathfinder. But I should note that with sneak attack, my Arcane Trickster is deadly with Ray of Frost.
the system balances them so well that my Warlock's standard tactic is to use eldritch blast all the time, he seldom uses his measly 2 spell slots a day at all.
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There was a prestige class by a third-party I'm not remembering called the 'Master of Small Magics' that focused entirely on expanding the characters use of cantrips, at the expense of higher level spells.
That sort of thing could be interesting as an Archetype for Sorcerers or Wizards, in PF, one that *greatly* expands the potential uses of cantrips, but totally forsakes higher level spellcasting (using the slots gained for higher level spells to instead upgrade cantrips, increasing # of targets, duration, or damage dice or whatever) to cast cantrips that increase in damage / duration / etc. based on caster level, increasing like magic missile or fireball automatically, and using limited resources to boost them even further (turning a single target acid splash into an AoE effect, for instance).
I'm sure heads would explode at the notion of a spellcasting AT that essentially gave up all non-cantrip spellcasting, but sometimes that's what expectations are there for, to shatter. :)
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I'm reminded of the Orb spells from 3.5 that enabled casters to toss unlimited small damage elemental spells as long as they had a higher level one memorized.
I could see a scaling Orb of Acid cantrip that let you do 1d4 acid (+1d4 for every 3 lvls) as a ranged touch attack, so long as you have an acid spell (like Acid Arrow) memorized.
Gives a wizard a fall back basic ranged attack that isn't ever going to outshine anyone, but means they are still going to go for their big spells when the encounter calls for it.
I'm reminded of the Orb spells from 3.5 that enabled casters to toss unlimited small damage elemental spells as long as they had a higher level one memorized.
I could see a scaling Orb of Acid cantrip that let you do 1d4 acid (+1d4 for every 3 lvls) as a ranged touch attack, so long as you have an acid spell (like Acid Arrow) memorized.
Gives a wizard a fall back basic ranged attack that isn't ever going to outshine anyone, but means they are still going to go for their big spells when the encounter calls for it.
The only Orb spell I remember was the scaling Chromatic Orb spell, which seemed to be an Illusionist's (they were a separate class back then) replacement for magic missile.
There was a prestige class by a third-party I'm not remembering called the 'Master of Small Magics' that focused entirely on expanding the characters use of cantrips, at the expense of higher level spells.
That sort of thing could be interesting as an Archetype for Sorcerers or Wizards, in PF, one that *greatly* expands the potential uses of cantrips, but totally forsakes higher level spellcasting (using the slots gained for higher level spells to instead upgrade cantrips, increasing # of targets, duration, or damage dice or whatever) to cast cantrips that increase in damage / duration / etc. based on caster level, increasing like magic missile or fireball automatically, and using limited resources to boost them even further (turning a single target acid splash into an AoE effect, for instance).
Would happen to have a link to that class ?
I'm sure heads would explode at the notion of a spellcasting AT that essentially gave up all non-cantrip spellcasting, but sometimes that's what expectations are there for, to shatter. :)
I'm reminded of the Orb spells from 3.5 that enabled casters to toss unlimited small damage elemental spells as long as they had a higher level one memorized.
I could see a scaling Orb of Acid cantrip that let you do 1d4 acid (+1d4 for every 3 lvls) as a ranged touch attack, so long as you have an acid spell (like Acid Arrow) memorized.
Gives a wizard a fall back basic ranged attack that isn't ever going to outshine anyone, but means they are still going to go for their big spells when the encounter calls for it.
IIRC, those were not the C ARcane Orb spells, but the C Mage's reserve feats... the power creep was strong already in that volume.
There was a prestige class by a third-party I'm not remembering called the 'Master of Small Magics' that focused entirely on expanding the characters use of cantrips, at the expense of higher level spells.
That sort of thing could be interesting as an Archetype for Sorcerers or Wizards, in PF, one that *greatly* expands the potential uses of cantrips, but totally forsakes higher level spellcasting (using the slots gained for higher level spells to instead upgrade cantrips, increasing # of targets, duration, or damage dice or whatever) to cast cantrips that increase in damage / duration / etc. based on caster level, increasing like magic missile or fireball automatically, and using limited resources to boost them even further (turning a single target acid splash into an AoE effect, for instance).
I'm sure heads would explode at the notion of a spellcasting AT that essentially gave up all non-cantrip spellcasting, but sometimes that's what expectations are there for, to shatter. :)
oops, I meant to ask do you have a link to that class ?
I wouldn't say more powerful, but I have added extra cantrips before. You mention a weaker Magic Missile, I did that one. Called it Magic Mote, it did 1 damage without requiring an attack roll or allowing a save, although it was affected by anything that negatively impacted Magic Missile (such as broach of shielding).
If you want a Mage Armour like cantrip, how about Mage Padding: grants a 1 armor bonus for 30 minutes. (You could bump it to 2 armor if you're feeling generous)
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oops, I meant to ask do you have a link to that class ?
I do not. I have a *ton* of 3rd party stuff, and it would take me weeks of diving through old stuff (mostly in boxes) to find it again, not because I have that much stuff, but because once I start opening boxes of old gaming books, I start *reading* old gaming books, and next thing you know, it's been eight hours, and my butt is paralyzed, and I've only gotten through half a box...
The leaky sieve that is my memory hints that it might have been by ENWorld publishing, but I didn't find anything on the first Google try.
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What if there was a cantrip metamagic:
Cantrip (Metamagic)
You can cast a spell an indefinite number of times per day.Benefit: A spell cast with this metamagic are not expended when cast, and may be used again until you rest to regain spells. Any spell save DCs are calculated as if the spell were a 0th level spell.
Level Increase: +5
Spells that require an expensive material component do not benefit from this metamagic. Spells prepared this way must be prepared in a 1st level or higher spell slot. Spontaneous casters who cast a spell with this metamagic cannot expend that slot for any uses other than casting the same spell with the same metamagic(s).
I really like this one, but it might (for the sake of confusion) require no access to spontaneous casters, and I might make it +6 levels. It also makes for a confusing rod. Since this is an all day thing, using the metamagic template isn't quiet right, but you could give it a slight rewrite as an arcane discovery feat.
If it's +5 you might as well just buy a wand. Even for a 4th level spell -> 9th level you can do that, and the cost should be down in the noise at any applicable level.