PFS Ruling on Psychic Spell "Telekinetic Projectile"?


Rules Questions


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Hello,

I've been unable to find any PFS "official" Ruling about the Spell "Telekinetic Projectile".

Spell Details:

Quote:
deal 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage to both the target and the object. The type of object thrown doesn't change the damage type or any other properties of the attack, even if you throw a weapon or magic item in this way.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/telekinetic-projectile

Obviously, hurling a weapon with this spell does not change the bludgeoning to slashing/piercing (aka damage types), nor does this apply any magical weapon enchantments. This one is obvious.

Less clear is whether hurling cold-iron/silver/mithral/adamantine objects will bypass resistances of monsters?
-> Reading up various feats/spells that alter "damage type", "type" always seems to refer to slash/pierce/bludgeon only.
Example: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-versatility-combat
-> The spell "Versatile Weapon" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/versatile-weapon) hints that the material is considered a "physical property of a weapon" (thus a "property of the attack"?)... so one could say that the material of the object is irrelevant and does not bypass any DR the target has.
However in that case it should also mean that the 1d6 damage taken by the hurled object does not take it's material-related hardness into account (adamantine?): the hurled object (but not the target) would take the "full" 1d6 points of damage, even if you are hurling a lump of adamantine? If you ignore the object's material for target damage you'll have to ignore it for "source damage", imho you cannot have the "best" of both worlds (arguably).
This means you could potentially smash adamantine weapons (or magical items) of enemies into pieces? (after disarm of course, I firmly believe this spell should only work on unattended objects)

Not clear at all is what happens when hurling splash weapons?
You are hurling a glass bottle... the fact that it holds chemical liquids is (imho) totally unrelated (but very relevant). As such, the content of the bottle should be treated independently (after all you are required to hit full AC, not just touch AC with this spell) -> when the bottle breaks, the chemial content should do it's own full effect?

If I missed something important on my google-fu while searching for my answers, please do tell me. :-)

PS: I really need a PFS answer, this is important for my PFS Psychic Detective. :-)

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

As a GM, I have allowed Telekinetic Projectile to be used on mithral scrap to overcome DR silver. Of course, this was at a con, with a completely new player playing the pregen Psychic -- exactly the circumstances where I am most flexible. I'm not sure how I would rule with someone building a character around that shtick -- probably depends on where the numbers ended up.

With splash weapons, I would have to think about it a lot, but I would probably end up with you doing only splash damage on a hit (but with full splash area) exactly as if you had rolled a miss with the splash weapon that didn't scatter. (And on a miss the splash weapon is unbroken in scatter distance from the target.) No base 1d6 because a splash weapon shatters rather than doing physical damage.

ETA This is in no way an official ruling -- just intended to give one data point on possible rulings.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think that "other properties of the attack" probably includes weapon material properties. But, it is vague enough that I would be inclined to allow adamantine/cold iron/mithral ammunition to bypass DR if you've paid for it.

Either way, the object's hardness would apply to the 1d6 bludgeoning damage it takes.

I agree with pH unbalanced regarding splash weapons.


I'd also like to know if the spell is supposed to be a targeted spell. It mentions a target several times, but lacks the Target Descriptor.


Another interesting question would be: can you manipulate "ghost touch" items with it and hit ethereal creatures with it?

that could fall under the "magic item" exclusion, however an item considered to exist on the material and ethereal plane should affect incorporeal creatures: you are hurling a "dual-plane" object at them...?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I think it is clear that "other properties of the attack" includes any references to material, magic or other properties.

The spell surrounds an object with TK force and that's what hits.

As for splash weapons, I follow similar rules, causing splash damage to the area.


Taenia wrote:
I think it is clear that "other properties of the attack" includes any references to material, magic or other properties.

This.

The spell says the object you use doesn't influence the attack. Not the damage, not the damage type, not matters of DR or weaknesses.

For PFS, it's clear. The spell deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage that doesn't bypass DR/Magic or Silver or anything, under any circumstances.

Sczarni

Taenia wrote:
The spell surrounds an object with TK force and that's what hits.

That's very eloquent. I think I'll use that.


Many people use this TK force image... however [force] has a huge side-effect, imho:
It gives the spell an implicit [force] descriptor... and that would open another nasty can of worms.

It means the hurled object does not get it's hardness applied to resist its own damage... after all, if it's the [force] that does the 1d6 points of damage, why should a piece of paper take more damage than the rock of adamantine, when both deal the same amount of damage to the target?
why would a piece of paper end up shredded while metal is unscratched if both get "surrounded with a TK field"?

As the spell clearly does not have the [force] descriptor, I disagree with "TK force" effect/field.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kyoni wrote:

It means the hurled object does not get it's hardness applied to resist its own damage... after all, if it's the [force] that does the 1d6 points of damage, why should a piece of paper take more damage than the rock of adamantine, when both deal the same amount of damage to the target?

why would a piece of paper end up shredded while metal is unscratched if both get "surrounded with a TK field"?

Because hardness applies to both physical and energy damage? and [force] is a type of energy damage?

It is basically a mini-Telekinetic Blast. Almost exactly a mini blast. It is not a [force] effect, it is a psychic/aether effect.


it's a zero level spell.

Telekinetic Projectile wrote:
You fling an object weighing up to 5 pounds at the target. You must succeed at a ranged attack (not a ranged touch attack) to hit your target; if you hit, you deal 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage to both the target and the object. The type of object thrown doesn't change the damage type or any other properties of the attack, even if you throw a weapon or magic item in this way.

the "any other properties" seems to be pretty all inclusive. It's seems silly but that's RAW. An exception could have been made for special materials but it wasn't.

So, you could throw an alchemists fire. According to the spell it will do 1d6 bludgeoning and break, doing no fire damage to the target nor splash damage (again, any other properties). dang.

The spell is evocation but lacks the [force] descriptor. Yes flavor naming again with desired effect collides with RAW. It is just bludgeoning damage.

The nerf is apparent if you Tk Proj a flaming dancing sword... it only does 1d6 bludgeoning, no fire, no dancing, no bonus to hit or damage. At least it's lethal damage...

somehow I'm seeing steel balls becoming popular(Hrd:10).

Readying an action and Tk Proj an opponent launched ammunition might be an interesting GM question... if it hits it might do less damage (bane arrow, arrow of slaying){well some damage is better than possible death}.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Kyoni wrote:

It means the hurled object does not get it's hardness applied to resist its own damage... after all, if it's the [force] that does the 1d6 points of damage, why should a piece of paper take more damage than the rock of adamantine, when both deal the same amount of damage to the target?

why would a piece of paper end up shredded while metal is unscratched if both get "surrounded with a TK field"?

Because hardness applies to both physical and energy damage? and [force] is a type of energy damage?

It is basically a mini-Telekinetic Blast. Almost exactly a mini blast. It is not a [force] effect, it is a psychic/aether effect.

Ok and if it's not physical nor energy... what is it? how does untyped damage work here?

Energy damage depends on the material:

Rules wrote:


Energy Attacks
Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.

I guess my regular group (non-PFS) houseruled it "wrong": wooden door didn't get any hardness nor half damage vs fire attacks.

And whether force is particularly effective...? I have no idea how PFS rules this one, TBH (I'll have to look that up). For us [force] worked full-strength vs pretty much every material.

Imho it's bad to compare Telekinesis (I couldn't find Telekinetic Blast) with Telekinetic Projectile, transmutation vs evocation is a big difference here, and the hurled object doesn't take any damage with Telekinesis.
Telekinetic Volley is much like the "Violent Thrust" use of Telekinesis... also a transmutation spell and no damage to the hurled object.

So... in many ways Telekinetic Projectile doesn't make sense, compared to supposedly similar spells.

In closing: I think Telekinetic Projectile needs a full rewrite, because this is just soooo confusing.
It would be a shame to ban it from PFS (especially since Psychic Detective could really need a nice combat thingy to gap the first 3-4 levels), but right now I guess it just needs too much DM interpretation/house-ruling.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

It's only confusing when you start trying to read so much into it. Let it be simple, and it is.

It does exactly what it says. You can't game any extra or special effects from what you throw. If you throw things with hardness 6 or better, they won't break.

Sovereign Court

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The portion that makes it very clear is the last line of the spell (bolded portion for emphases) "The type of object thrown doesn't change the damage type or any other properties of the attack, even if you throw a weapon or magic item in this way."

Trying to get a 0 level spell to overcome DR or having elemental damage from the item thrown is well beyond the power expect from this level of spell.


KingOfAnything wrote:

It's only confusing when you start trying to read so much into it. Let it be simple, and it is.

It does exactly what it says. You can't game any extra or special effects from what you throw. If you throw things with hardness 6 or better, they won't break.

Except in that case nobody will ever use it:

any ranged weapon will be better than this spell (this has been noted in pretty much every guide/advice I found about this spell)

Acid Splash and the other cantrips have their reason to exist (elemental damage, touch AC, but less total damage) vs normal ranged weapons.
Telekinetic Projectile becomes useless even for a 1st level character: even a crappy sling (arguably the worst ranged weapon) is still going to be better (magical ammunition/material/...).
Sure, the spell has a "builtin" mage hand, but the real mage hand doesn't destroy scrolls/wands/potions when moving objects.

So yes... by your interpretation, I'm better off with the mage hand cantrip and a nice ranged weapon (Investigators get shortbows and crossbows on top of slings).
____________________________

Unless you are crazy enough to allow this spell vs enemy-held objects... (it doesn't say anything in the spell after all and I should not read stuff into it?)? but that is way stronger than any cantrip should be (steal maneuver for free).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kyoni wrote:
Unless you are crazy enough to allow this spell vs enemy-held objects... (it doesn't say anything in the spell after all and I should not read stuff into it?)? but that is way stronger than any cantrip should be (steal maneuver for free).

Dunno if enemy-held objects (or even just objects on another being, like their helmet) would be allowed, but since the spell description doesn't mention that the object needs to start in your possession, I can see a situation where I might actually use this spell.

Seems perfectly reasonable that if the starting point and ending point are both within the range of the spell and the object is unattended, that it should work.

So, say you have a party member who specializes in disarming opponents, if you are next up in initiative order, you can make sure the opponent probably doesn't retrieve the weapon on his/her turn by flinging it at another opponent (or even a wall or other object) to make sure the weapon is no longer near the opponent.

Of course, this won't work for most two handed weapons or crossbows due to the weight restriction.


WilliamD763 wrote:
Kyoni wrote:
Unless you are crazy enough to allow this spell vs enemy-held objects... (it doesn't say anything in the spell after all and I should not read stuff into it?)? but that is way stronger than any cantrip should be (steal maneuver for free).

Dunno if enemy-held objects (or even just objects on another being, like their helmet) would be allowed, but since the spell description doesn't mention that the object needs to start in your possession, I can see a situation where I might actually use this spell.

Seems perfectly reasonable that if the starting point and ending point are both within the range of the spell and the object is unattended, that it should work.

So, say you have a party member who specializes in disarming opponents, if you are next up in initiative order, you can make sure the opponent probably doesn't retrieve the weapon on his/her turn by flinging it at another opponent (or even a wall or other object) to make sure the weapon is no longer near the opponent.

Of course, this won't work for most two handed weapons or crossbows due to the weight restriction.

And you can do exactly that with Mage Hand... they both have the same weight restriction. With Mage Hand you could actually hover the item in front of one of your buddies to grab and use it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kyoni wrote:


And you can do exactly that with Mage Hand... they both have the same weight restriction. With Mage Hand you could actually hover the item in front of one of your buddies to grab and use it.

Can't do 'exactly that' with mage hand. Mage hand takes a standard and a move action to do that, and only moves it 15 ft.

Telekinetic Projectile could move it 50 or more feet (if opponent was 25 away from you, you can target something 25 on the other side of you) and it only takes a standard action.

So not exactly the same. Of course the hover with Mage Hand is nice for holding for an ally, but also if there is enough headroom, you can have it hover 15' above the ground and a bit further every round until you get to your max range.


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Huh. So this is essentially a crappy Telekinetic Blast.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Is there a good way for a Rogue to get access to this? It wouldn't be bad with Sneak Attack dice added on.


Ok so let's try to compare things...

Acid Splash (cantrip)
deals 1d3 acid damage on a ranged touch

Elemental Ray (sorcerer level 1 power)
deals 1d6 + half sorcerer level acid damage on a ranged touch
____________________________________________

Telekinetic Projectile (cantrip)
deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a ranged attack (potentially with a -8 to hit vs enemies with cover and fighting in melee)

Telekinetic Blast (kineticist level 1 power... finally found it)
deals half kineticist d6 + loads of extra damage (half level and con/str) on a ranged attack and you can throw heavier items at higher levels, too...
On top, the last sentence from that blast thingy seems to indicate you can use splash weapons at full effect (but don't get your "blast damage" as a downside):

Quote:
Alternatively, you can loosen the strands of aether in order to deal damage to both the object and the target as though you had thrown the object yourself (instead of dealing your normal blast damage).

So... as Onyx Tanuki put it: Telekinetic Projectile would be a very crappy Telekinetic Blast... no real reason to ever take this cantrip unless it's for fluff.

This detail is interesting:

Quote:
All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

so the Telekinetic Blast (a kinetic blast wild talent) counts as magical... no matter what object you hurl and no matter what enhancements that potential hurled weapon might have.

Does that mean Telekinetic Projectile bypasses DR/magic? It should if people say Telekinetic Projectile is the watered-down version of Telekinetic Blast.


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The reason to take it is Psychics don't get any better damaging cantrips and you can use it without having to buy, hold, or smuggle past the guards an otherwise superior basic ranged weapon. Hold a melee weapon (and maybe a shield), use your move action and this from range. That's not strictly inferior to a crossbow in all situations.


pH unbalanced wrote:
Is there a good way for a Rogue to get access to this? It wouldn't be bad with Sneak Attack dice added on.

can rogues get it? sure... it's a spell and you can get it via minor magic talent

bigger question: can you use it with sneak attacks?
I'd say no for flanking/surprising
If the enemy lost his dex to AC (blind?), maybe
The sneak attacking would be very much DM-fiat...

But I still don't see why a rogue would want to waste a talent/feat on that cantrip instead of getting proficiency in a good ranged weapon that can have magical enhancements and be made of special materials.
If you really want a rogue with minor magic, I still think Acid Splash is better.

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
The reason to take it is Psychics don't get any better damaging cantrips and you can use it without having to buy, hold, or smuggle past the guards an otherwise superior basic ranged weapon. Hold a melee weapon (and maybe a shield), use your move action and this from range. That's not strictly inferior to a crossbow in all situations.

Hiding a sling and a handful of "metal marbles" shouldn't be too hard for a sneaky character.

If having an undetectable ranged option is a must, get this trait...?

Pathfinder Companion: Sargava, the Lost Colony. wrote:

Two-World Magic

Benefit: Select one 0-level spell from a class spell list other than your own. This spell is a 0-level spell on your class spell list (or a 1st-level spell if your class doesn't have 0-level spells). For example, if you are a druid, you could select mage hand and thereafter prepare it as a 0-level druid spell; if you are a sorcerer, you could select know direction as a 0-level sorcerer spell known.


You get lots of cantrips and few are worth much. You only get two traits and lots are great. Few Psychics will find Sleight of Hand a worthwhile investment of scarce skill points. The marginal value of this cantrip exceeds that of your proposed alternatives.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I agree that is silly that RAW, a silver piece thrown by tk projectile doesn't bypass DR x/silver but there you are


it's just some over-mincing in an attempt to read more into than there is. The spell is quite simple and clear. I agree I'd like to see special materials qualify but by RAW they don't. You hit a slippery slope very quickly so I can see the simplicity for a 0 level spell. It's not Coin Shot. Acid Splash 1d3[acid] and Ray of Frost 1d3[cold] are its equivalents. Hand of the Apprentice does about the same thing but wizards only get it INT bonus+3 times per day. So 1d6 B is pretty good.
Remember that V,S components translate into thought and emotion components respectively, which practically means a full round casting while threatened or Conc check DC increases by 10.

I think the real power is in it's nerfing ability. Help out your enemies by adding TK Proj to their attacks (for whatever your GM will allow) lol (I think it'd have to be an interrupt or immediate)

okay back to reality... the nice thing is that ANY OBJECT (not in someone else's possession) will work. You can fling grains of sand for 1d6 B. You can fling jewelry off your fingers, copper pieces, cutlery on the table, chicken wings off your plate, pictures on the wall, caltrops, bear traps, or disarmed opponents weapons(take a d6 for dropping your weapon and it falls on the floor again... or throw it in your general direction and miss). So many possible shenanigans...


Kyoni wrote:


Except in that case nobody will ever use it:
any ranged weapon will be better than this spell (this has been noted in pretty much every guide/advice I found about this spell)

That extra 5-6 lbs of weight is a pretty big deal when you probably have a max of 10 Str.

It's certainly not nearly as good as any of the other damage cantrips, but it has some benefits over a light crossbow. Enough to make it worthwhile.

Liberty's Edge

Gisher wrote:
I'd also like to know if the spell is supposed to be a targeted spell. It mentions a target several times, but lacks the Target Descriptor.

It throw an obje3ct, it say "You must succeed at a ranged attack (not a ranged touch attack) to hit your target;". So you aren't targeting the creature you damage with the spell, you are attacking it with an object you throw.

If you mean "are you targeting the object you flying" (and so you have to see or touch it), probably yes. I would say that you must touch the object you are hurling, the spell is very similar to Hand of the Apprentice. Without that limitation, no save, no limit about not hurling stuff in other people possession it would be possible to take some weapon and hurl it at his companion, tush disarming him and possibly arming his friend and his weapon while using a 0 level spell.

Liberty's Edge

WilliamD763 wrote:
Kyoni wrote:


And you can do exactly that with Mage Hand... they both have the same weight restriction. With Mage Hand you could actually hover the item in front of one of your buddies to grab and use it.

Can't do 'exactly that' with mage hand. Mage hand takes a standard and a move action to do that, and only moves it 15 ft.

Telekinetic Projectile could move it 50 or more feet (if opponent was 25 away from you, you can target something 25 on the other side of you) and it only takes a standard action.

So not exactly the same. Of course the hover with Mage Hand is nice for holding for an ally, but also if there is enough headroom, you can have it hover 15' above the ground and a bit further every round until you get to your max range.

Mage hand don't work on magical objects, so after a few level it would be pretty useless against the weapons of disarmed enemies.


Ok, answering a buch of things here:

@Diego Rossi
I rarely use cantrips beyond level 3-4 in regular APs... not sure about PFS, but then I rarely see disarm builds sitting with me at the table, so this cantrip just got super-situational.
Lots of enemies are DR/something, even at level 1, thus this Cantrip wont do anything to them. Acid Splash is Energy damage and you only need to hit touch AC. -8 to your attack is huge at levels 1-2 when you don't have Precise Shot yet.

Quote:
If you mean "are you targeting the object you flying" (and so you have to see or touch it), probably yes. I would say that you must touch the object you are hurling, the spell is very similar to Hand of the Apprentice.

Wait... you say I need to roll a first ranged attack check to "pick up the item", the roll another ranged attack check to hit the destination target with the item??? I hope I understood you wrong...?

@Sundakan
Sure, a crossbow weights more... but even a simple sling is actually better since you can boost it with [material] bullets and enhance it magically (bypass many DR/[whatever]). Maybe a Psychic would dump his str below 10... but my Psychic Detective will not. I am trying to figure out how to be useful at levels 1-3 in a PFS fight (encountering your average mix of PFS encounters with resistances even a level 1).
In other words: what would I need to do, to not be carried through the first dozen scenarios I'll be playing in PFS?

@Azothath
Hurling stuff around certainly gets the bonus of "cool" but I could just sling bullets at that guy. That 1d6 bludgeoning still needs to hit full AC, Acid Splash targets touch AC (usually a lot lower, so you don't mind that -8 too much). And this still leaves the problem of DR/xy that you encounter even at level 1 in PFS scenarios.

In the end I still don't see any good reason for a Psychic or an Investigator to get this cantrip at levels 1-3 in a PFS game.
Targeting full AC with a -8 modifier, for classes that have no reason to get the Point-Blank & Precise Shot feat chain, that's very disappointing.
Psychic uses the bad BAB progression so I wouldn't get the Precise Shot feat chain with him, there's better feats to get out there.
Investigator focuses on melee combat after level 3-4, so there's no point in wasting two feats a low levels just to make Telekinetic Projectile "worthwhile"...
_________________________________________________________

Quote:
All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

so the Telekinetic Blast (a kinetic blast wild talent) counts as magical... no matter what object you hurl and no matter what enhancements that potential hurled weapon might have.

Does that mean Telekinetic Projectile bypasses DR/magic? It should if people say Telekinetic Projectile is the watered-down version of Telekinetic Blast...
In that case, I now have an "at-will" magical weapon with no enhancement modifier... that would be "ok": I can now use it vs DR/magic monsters and incorporeal monsters (half damage), that's something.


Quote:
any ranged weapon will be better than this spell (this has been noted in pretty much every guide/advice I found about this spell)

Except that you don't need to carry a weapon around. You are always armed. There are other "uses" for spells other than direct combat.

Also, you cannot be disarmed or sundered, it has no ammo problem, and all you have to worry about is that your object has enough hardness and your targets don't have some type of "melts objects when hit" ability.

I honestly love that spell because it reminds me of the Warlock movies and game.


I get -4 for target in combat, where's the other -4 coming from? Why aren't touch attacks suffering this as well? I don't know ranged rules very well.

It's pretty bizarre to me that you're worried about contributing levels 1-3 in combat by firing any cantrip into melee combat when you're a 3/4 BAB d8. Maybe just use melee and set up a flank?


shadowkras wrote:
Quote:
any ranged weapon will be better than this spell (this has been noted in pretty much every guide/advice I found about this spell)

Except that you don't need to carry a weapon around. You are always armed. There are other "uses" for spells other than direct combat.

Also, you cannot be disarmed or sundered, it has no ammo problem, and all you have to worry about is that your object has enough hardness and your targets don't have some type of "melts objects when hit" ability.

You still have the ammo problem: you need an object to hurl against your target. Picking up stones works for slings, too.

If your DM is picky, he will ask you to make Perception checks to find that grain of sand/dust (imho a very cheesy way to get around the "you need an object to hurl at your target"... the spell description says it requires an object to be hurled).

You are not "always armed": It's a ranged attack and a standard action to cast, provoking AoO if not casting defensively. You don't get to make AoO with this.
Any readying your action can be done with spells and ranged weapons... no advantage either.

How often do you get disarmed/sundered with ranged weapons, but not disrupted while casting a spell in that same spot? Especially since you get a -10 to concentration checks? unless you waste a move action?

Psychic Magic Rules wrote:
Thought components are so mentally demanding that they make interruptions and distractions extremely challenging. The DC for any concentration check for a spell with a thought component increases by 10. A psychic spellcaster casting a spell with a thought component can take a move action before beginning to cast the spell to center herself; she can then use the normal DC instead of the increased DC.

______________________

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
I get -4 for target in combat, where's the other -4 coming from? Why aren't touch attacks suffering this as well? I don't know ranged rules very well.

-4 for firing a ranged weapon into melee combat and another -4 for your target having cover

ranged touch suffers this as well, but most monsters have way less touch AC (natural armor, armor/shield AC, ...), that makes up for the big malus

Your DM will have to DM-fiat whether cover applies from your position or from the position of the object or both, the spell doesn't say.

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
It's pretty bizarre to me that you're worried about contributing levels 1-3 in combat by firing any cantrip into melee combat when you're a 3/4 BAB d8. Maybe just use melee and set up a flank?

I was trying to understand the PFS ruling of this spell.

I guess I was hoping the class guides to be wrong about this spell being "bad" as it sounded cool at first, but until the Devs decide to errata that spell for more clarity, there are better cantrips to pick for PFS games.


Haunted psychics get to use it as a swift action a few times a day, a nice perk at the lowest levels.

Otherwise it's a damage cantrip, there so a caster can avoid the aesthetics or encumberance of xbow or sling bullets.


Quote:
You are not "always armed"

Don't take things out of context, i meant that you always have a "weapon" even in situations where you couldn't bring a bow or crossbow (which can be seen on my quote).

Must go to a noble's party that has "no weapons allowed sign"? No problem, you have a damaging cantrip. This is true for all spellcasters though, but people were comparing the cantrip to bows and crossbows.

Unless you are on a desert, swimming, or on space, there are objects pretty much everywhere. And im only talking about unattended objects, which the spell doesn't specify either, but if i had to guess the author's intent, the object must be at hand, and flies from your position towards the target. Otherwise it would have been clearly specified so, like Telekinesis does.
The spell's format is very similar to other attack cantrips.

Quote:
-4 for firing a ranged weapon into melee combat and another -4 for your target having cover

If you insist on being pendantic, this is actually wrong and you recieve a -4 penalty to fire into melee and your target has a +4 bonus to AC for having cover, assuming you cannot trace a line between you and your target. They must be treated separatedly because there are abilities that can nulify or reduce their values independently.

Liberty's Edge

Kyoni wrote:

Ok, answering a buch of things here:

@Diego Rossi
et.

Quote:
If you mean "are you targeting the object you are flying" (and so you have to see or touch it), probably yes. I would say that you must touch the object you are hurling, the spell is very similar to Hand of the Apprentice.

Wait... you say I need to roll a first ranged attack check to "pick up the item", the roll another ranged attack check to hit the destination target with the item??? I hope I understood you wrong...?

Yes, you are understanding me wrong. "Targeting" in Pathfinder has several meaning. In this instance it mean both "selecting the object that will be hurled by the spell", an action that require no attack roll of any kind, and selecting the target that will be attacked by the spell. Again, selecting the second target don't require any attack roll. It is the act of attacking that require the attack roll. Refer to the"Aiming a spell" section of the magic chapter.

As written this spell can select any object as a target, regardless of it being in the hand or possession of someone, and hurl it away against another target. A ranged disarm without check against the target CMD is awfully good for a cantrip, even if limited to object that weight 5 lbs or less. There is only 1 non exotic one handed weapon weighting more than 5 lbs, the battleaxe. Add wands, potions, scrolls and other stuff and you have a extremely potent spell if you don't limit its ability to items that you "control" when you cast it.


Diego Rossi wrote:

"Targeting" in Pathfinder has several meaning. In this instance it mean both "selecting the object that will be hurled by the spell", an action that require no attack roll of any kind, and selecting the target that will be attacked by the spell. Again, selecting the second target don't require any attack roll. It is the act of attacking that require the attack roll. Refer to the"Aiming a spell" section of the magic chapter.

As written this spell can select any object as a target, regardless of it being in the hand or possession of someone, and hurl it away against another target. A ranged disarm without check against the target CMD is awfully good for a cantrip, even if limited to object that weight 5 lbs or less. There is only 1 non exotic one handed weapon weighting more than 5 lbs, the battleaxe. Add wands, potions, scrolls and other stuff and you have a extremely potent spell if you don't limit its ability to items that you "control" when you cast it.

.... ok your understanding of the spell is very different from everybody else, but a very interesting POV :-)

Most understand that you cannot disarm/steal with it and that picking up the object is "free" since it has to be unattended (spell that allow disarms/steal say so explicitly and explain what attributes you use).

I guess I'll ask DMs before every PFS game how they understand this spell as people don't agree about the possibilities/limitations of this spell.

thanks :-)

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