Dancing vs. Darkness


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Ok so I'm building a dusk knight paladin and unfortunately paladins do not have access to darkness creating spells (shocking right?) to exploit their skill set. I have already remedied this problem via the unsanctioned knowledge feat but I have encountered something that confused me and was hoping for some clarification. There is a level 1 bard spell called "dancing darkness" which grants up to 4 20 ft radius globes of darkness for 1 minute/level.... while darkness a 2nd level spell grants a single 20 ft radius globe of darkness attached to an item for the same duration. What is the point of darkness if dancing darkness exists? As far as I can tell this is a lower level yet superior spell.


You're off a bit - try re-reading the spell entry: it's not four 20 ft. globes, it's four spheres within a 10 ft. radius.

That said, I believe the spell has an error in it - it does not cap itself in any way.

Though it's unclear (and I believe it's a mistake), I believe dancing darkness isn't supposed to create the same value of "darkness" that the darkness spell does - instead, I believe it is supposed to be an equivalent darkness to dancing lights' light. I believe this to be the case, because the bottom of the spell notes, "Dancing Shadows can be made permanent with a permanency spell." - indicating a redesign of some sort or another occurred.

That said, dancing darkness doesn't do that, as-written - and by remaining uncapped, it actually becomes the most potent (and frustrating) darkness spell in the game... frustrating not just to the enemy, however.

For reference, consider all of these:

- Light and Darkness FAQ
- dancing lights
- - Major Points: four globes providing "light as a torch" ('normal' light in 20 ft. radius, and increase by 1 step for 20 ft. beyond; cannot create bright light), lasts 1 minute, and must reamin within medium range of caster
- dancing darkness:
- - Major Points: four globes but each within 10 ft. that affect a single 20 ft. radius (total maximum 30 ft. radius, though it doesn't quite work like that), and must remain within medium range of caster
- darkness:
- - Major Points: single globe of 20 ft., lasts for 1 min/level, and causes illumination to drop by a single step (maximum to "darkness" value)
- deeper darkness
- - Major Points: single globe of 20 ft. radius, lasts for 10 min/level, and causes illumination to drop by a single step (maximum "supernatural darkness" value [no listed value, but see below])

Without magic, there are four light levels (darkness, dim light, normal light, bright light)... but, as noted in the FAQ some spells, "can create a new fifth light level called supernatural darkness below darkness" - this effectively creates a new rule*. Now there is a fifth light level, and it exists outside of deeper darkness' personal exceptions.

* Technically, it always existed: the mandragora had a vulnerability to "supernatural darkness" and even specified that deeper darkness created such, while darkness did not. It's just that now we have perfect clarity that there is a fifth light state that is "darker" than the "darkness" value.

One of the more potent things is that deeper darkness notes that it does not stack with itself - dancing darkness has no such written limitation. So you could drop the light level as many times as you want - up to and including this fifth "supernatural darkness" light value - by spamming the thing, and creatively overlapping them (or not for lesser values). What's more, you could even stack deeper darkness with dancing darkness - the two spells don't fall under either "same source" rule nor do they run afoul of deeper darkness' own special overlap clause.

This is insane. I really do not believe the spell was meant to be able to do that... but as written, it can. While casting four 1st level spells to get the same effect as a 3rd seems balanced, it's really not: deeper darkness nets you two levels lower, and that's it. Dancing darkness will net you whatever you want, so long as you stack it with itself.

While few creatures other than a devil will really care to do this, it's a very potent ability for them.

After all, deeper darkness costs 30,000 gold (3*5*2k) to make continuous on something, and must be centered on an object of some sort, but dancing darkness just follows you at will, and only costs 2,000 gold each (or 8,000 for all four effects).

(See Magic Item gold piece values.)

Note: I'm aware that it notes it can be made permanent at the bottom of the spell, but a) permanency doesn't have that spell listed, so we actually have no idea how much it costs to make that happen, and b) by the same RAW that allows it to stack, technically dancing darkness cannot be made permanent - only the "dancing shadows" spell - whatever that is - can be made permanent by the rules in the dancing darkness spell. What this means is that the spell is in error and needs errata.

But, for now: enjoy away, I suppose!


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you've basically confirmed my suspicions of a lower leveled yet stronger spell. Although I feel I need to point out deeper darkness is a 60 ft radius not 20. Thanks for all your input though I really appreciate it. My gm is scrambling now to find a reason the globes shouldn't stack and even if he rules they don't it's still a bigger darkness at a lower level so I'm pleased.


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making-half-dragons wrote:
Ok so I'm building a dusk knight paladin and unfortunately paladins do not have access to darkness creating spells (shocking right?) to exploit their skill set. I have already remedied this problem via the unsanctioned knowledge feat but I have encountered something that confused me and was hoping for some clarification. There is a level 1 bard spell called "dancing darkness" which grants up to 4 20 ft radius globes of darkness for 1 minute/level.... while darkness a 2nd level spell grants a single 20 ft radius globe of darkness attached to an item for the same duration. What is the point of darkness if dancing darkness exists? As far as I can tell this is a lower level yet superior spell.

Check out Eclipsed Spell metamagic. It can flip light/dark on spells.

/cevah


making-half-dragons wrote:
you've basically confirmed my suspicions of a lower leveled yet stronger spell. Although I feel I need to point out deeper darkness is a 60 ft radius not 20. Thanks for all your input though I really appreciate it. My gm is scrambling now to find a reason the globes shouldn't stack and even if he rules they don't it's still a bigger darkness at a lower level so I'm pleased.

It's not as powerful as you think given that it's such a low level spell that most magical sources of light will destroy the effect.


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Heightened Eclipsed Continual Flame, as a 9th level spell. Still only mundane darkness, but effective nevertheless.

Paladins don't get many light spells, though. Eclipsed Light Lance could be a very interesting trick, especially with your theme.


making-half-dragons wrote:
you've basically confirmed my suspicions of a lower leveled yet stronger spell. Although I feel I need to point out deeper darkness is a 60 ft radius not 20. Thanks for all your input though I really appreciate it. My gm is scrambling now to find a reason the globes shouldn't stack and even if he rules they don't it's still a bigger darkness at a lower level so I'm pleased.

It's like my attention deficit kicked up in the middle of research and I entirely botched a super-important line due to a copy/paste error, or something!

(Oops.)

XD

Thanks for pointing that out, and glad I could help!

If your GM is looking for a ruling he could make, he could always cite the "same source" rule (i.e. two things from the "same source" don't stack), though that rule is very... well, it's abused by people, often, for situations that it does not actually apply in, and Paizo opened up a large can of really, really weird worms by (it seems accidentally) creating a precedent of very weirdly (and arbitrarily) "nested sources" with that same rule in an effort to curb power gaming on an entirely unrelated topic. All that to say: be careful on the "same-source" rule, as even Paizo starts creating weird cases with it.

Cevah wrote:

Check out Eclipsed Spell metamagic. It can flip light/dark on spells.

/cevah

Oooooooohhhhhhhhh... if you could create a tattoo or something like that with a continuous four-times dancing darkness (which, remember, stacks, unless your GM says otherwise) - plus the +50% extra cost, due to the addition we're about to make -, and then use the Rod pricing for two metamagic feats a few times per day each, you could hypothetically do some amazing things with this.

Remember: get your GM's permission before any and all attempts at shenanigans. Attempting to out-shenanigan your GM will never truly go well, for one reason or the other: if you fail, you fail; you succeed, you're GM now has more powerful tricks to turn right back at you; if you succeed and your GM doesn't see fit to play the one-ups-man-ship game, your GM may have a frustrating time and not want to GM anymore.

So you're just chillin' in your darkness-pad, when suddenly fetchling assassins with improved dark sight attack! Your favorite trick is useless!

BAM, baby~! Suck on 9th level super-brights~! (That "stack" for whatever that means! XD)

Note: what I just proposed is a lot of money. I recommend holding off on trying such nonsense until you literally have the money to throw away* - preferably using it as a weapon (you are a paladin after all; so you'll want to emulate the gods...)**

... so yeah. Enjoy!

* All I'm saying is you've got a ton of ways of practically throwing away all this irritating filthy luchre just hanging around, being a burden...

** Oh! That reminds me! Make sure that I don't tell you about the fabricate infinite money trick, as your GM probably already does not like me! Though I suppose you could temporarily create the stuff by major creation, if all you're looking for is ammo, and/or you've got an eye to swindle people...

Saethori wrote:

Heightened Eclipsed Continual Flame, as a 9th level spell. Still only mundane darkness, but effective nevertheless.

Paladins don't get many light spells, though. Eclipsed Light Lance could be a very interesting trick, especially with your theme.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand awesome. XD


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Tacticslion wrote:
Cevah wrote:

Check out Eclipsed Spell metamagic. It can flip light/dark on spells.

/cevah

Oooooooohhhhhhhhh... if you could create a tattoo or something like that with a continuous four-times dancing darkness (which, remember, stacks, unless your GM says otherwise) - plus the +50% extra cost, due to the addition we're about to make -, and then use the Rod pricing for two metamagic feats a few times per day each, you could hypothetically do some amazing things with this.

Remember: get your GM's permission before any and all attempts at shenanigans. Attempting to out-shenanigan your GM will never truly go well, for one reason or the other: if you fail, you fail; you succeed, you're GM now has more powerful tricks to turn right back at you; if you succeed and your GM doesn't see fit to play the one-ups-man-ship game, your GM may have a frustrating time and not want to GM anymore.

So you're just chillin' in your darkness-pad, when suddenly fetchling assassins with improved dark sight attack! Your favorite trick is useless!

Well, I am a fetchling merchant.... :-)

/cevah


So am I! Fetchling bro-fist!
(I mean, I'm also a fetchling ninja who assassinates the wicked for money; I just don't advertise that part.)
((This is my character in one game.))


making-half-dragons wrote:
you've basically confirmed my suspicions of a lower leveled yet stronger spell. Although I feel I need to point out deeper darkness is a 60 ft radius not 20. Thanks for all your input though I really appreciate it. My gm is scrambling now to find a reason the globes shouldn't stack and even if he rules they don't it's still a bigger darkness at a lower level so I'm pleased.

Just on the off-chance that you are still paying attention to this thread and your GM didn't work it out already, the globes don't stack because they only reduce ambient light levels, and a light level already reduced by a globe is no longer ambient.

This blog entry may be of use: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhfm?Illuminating-Darkness

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