Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Starfinder


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Another martial splatbook?


Product Discussion

1 to 50 of 60 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Any chances of martials - especially fighters - getting a book in the vein of Arcane Anthology? Something that would expand upon the absolutely fantastic Weapon Master's Handbook and Unchained's Stamina rules? Things like:

- More weapon and armor tricks
- More advanced weapon and armor training
- More alternatives for bravery (say, apply its bonus to a skill or touch AC)
- Stamina and combat tricks for feats that have yet to be covered (such as, strangely enough, those that come up in the WMH, which only explored Inner Sea feats in that regard)
- Weapon, armor or perhaps even magic item-specific stamina combat tricks
- More high-end feats like the PHBII's Weapon Supremacy
- Options that expand upon the use of Stamina, such as using it for saves or damage. Perhaps even associated with...
- Bonus-feat-replacing class features that aren't tied to archetypes

This thread isn't about the martial/caster disparity, or evening the field, but only about providing more options, which is never a bad thing. That being said, no spells, please. Ultimate Combat's 42(!) pages still rankle to this day.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

War Anthology?

And I'm fine with more spells, especially if they're buffs.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, I´m still waiting for the Unchained Fighter, ever since the powers that be decided that it was the Barbarian who needed their attention ;).


Rysky wrote:
War Anthology?

That'd work for me. Maybe Martial Manual, for the sake of alliteration, if nothing else.

The Shaman wrote:
Well, I´m still waiting for the Unchained Fighter, ever since the powers that be decided that it was the Barbarian who needed their attention ;).

I hear ya. This book would be the perfect excuse for that, although it might break with the approach of previous splatbooks.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
The Shaman wrote:
Well, I´m still waiting for the Unchained Fighter, ever since the powers that be decided that it was the Barbarian who needed their attention ;).

The unchained fighter exists. It a combination of the Weapon Masters Handbook and the Armor Masters handbook.


They add options for the fighter. They do not change the chassis, and this is what I think should have changed. I remember a lot more people being unhappy with the fighter than the barbarian, for example.


I thought the Barbarian needed unchaining mostly because of cheese and weird math issues, not because the class didn't work.

I'm not sure what you'd change about the chassis to the fighter since that's mostly "you get feats" and everything else they get can be traded with an archetype or an advanced training option.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

The only real issue is that the fighter should be more skilled by default. But there are fixes for that with archetypes or advanced weapon/armor training.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

you change it like they did the rogue. Just give it a few more things.
If they made something like AWT and AAT a default option for the fighter that worked with existing AWT and AAT options would be nice.

Cause even now with the "fixed fighter" my issue is that you're spending all your "class features" of bonus feats to buy back basic class features.

Like there's the AAT for 1 skill or AWT for 2 skills. Yes this would turn me into a 5 skill point per level class at lv5, and the cost of two feats. Meaning I'm using my class feature feats to balance out with the slayer's starting skills per level. Which is basically equating to 2 levels of getting no class features as I'm trading those for skills that the other classes just start off with.


Chess Pwn, you do realize you don't have to spend feats on AWT right?

You can just replace getting an extra weapon group with instead getting an AWT option. Most people wouldn't consider it necessary to have more than one weapon group for weapon training, so it's really not much of a loss.

You can however, also spend feats on AWT and some of them are strong enough that I can justify spending a feat on it, because they're really good.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd love to see more martial stuff - but unless it was a complete unchaining (and we already have Vigilante), I don't really want to see more Fighter-only stuff particularly. Paizo have printed a ton of combat styles that are really interesting and encourage unusual weapon options, but are barely usable even for classes with bonus feats.
Advanced Weapon training frustrated me a little because while it fixes a lot of Fighter's issues, it doesn't benefit any other class with weapon training. You want Ricochet Toss on your Flying Blade Swashbuckler? That'll cost two feats, please. Oh, you're already agonisingly feat-starved? Too bad. Even Warpriests have trouble fitting this in.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Fighters have enough nice things, I'm just frustrated by the fact that fighter design means any unusual martial option will be near enough fighter-exclusive because of the investment required to get them.

I want to see less feats and more archetypes that actually let you use them. Especially the style feats. Why Spear Dancing Style doesn't really 'turn on' until you've invested 4-5 feats is beyond me. (Four levels of U-Rogue or Vigilante do let you in, admittedly)

I just want to see me some archetypes that get early access or more efficient investment in style feats. Maybe Vigilante talents spoiled me but I would really love to see viable ways to sneak in these lateral bonuses from styles like Spear Dancing, Shielded Gauntlet and Upsetting Shield.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I have to agree with Dandy. Fighters still aren't in a great place, but so many martial options end up being options that are designed specifically with fighters in mind that it ends up choking out other martial characters, simply because of the fighter's inherent design.

It's to the point where I actually think the game is worse off for having the fighter class because of what it means for martial feats.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'd like to see a lot of style feats that don't rely on unarmed fighting. I really like playing characters with styles, but I only like playing fistfighters every so often.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:

Chess Pwn, you do realize you don't have to spend feats on AWT right?

You can just replace getting an extra weapon group with instead getting an AWT option. Most people wouldn't consider it necessary to have more than one weapon group for weapon training, so it's really not much of a loss.

You can however, also spend feats on AWT and some of them are strong enough that I can justify spending a feat on it, because they're really good.

Yes, but now you're waiting till lv7 to become a 3 skill class and lv9 to become a 5 skill class. I don't see how waiting 1/3 - 1/2 your max level to finally "fix the fighter" does any fixing of the fighter.

I feel AAT and AWT are a step in the right direction, but they aren't enough to "fix" the fighter.


An Unchained Fighter should exist. AAT and AWT should be gained at Weapon Training and Armor Training levels for free, with the option of more thru feats. Maybe that's a bit much, but it's no more silly than a core Barbarian.

Also, maybe add to the class a form of fighting style preference gained at some level (3-5 perhaps). A Fighter at its best imagining is a martial that is just that damn good at what he does. For example, a free hand style Fighter could negate Combat Expertise penalties relative to Fighter level (Like negate 1 point to hit per 4 BAB), or a two handed Fighter could gain extra damage dice with level progression (1d4 per X Fighter levels). Something fun and makes leveling the class that much more rewarding.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Dandy Lion wrote:
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Fighters have enough nice things, I'm just frustrated by the fact that fighter design means any unusual martial option will be near enough fighter-exclusive because of the investment required to get them.

The one thing the fighter is good at should require an investment from other classes to play with it, as said classes already have "unusual options" of their own.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Viriato wrote:
The Dandy Lion wrote:
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Fighters have enough nice things, I'm just frustrated by the fact that fighter design means any unusual martial option will be near enough fighter-exclusive because of the investment required to get them.
The one thing the fighter is good at should require an investment from other classes to play with it, as said classes already have "unusual options" of their own.

No that's an awful way to design things. Someone shouldn't need to spend all their feats and wait until the campaign is half over to make a combat style work just to make fighters feel better about themselves.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The one thing I would like to be fixed about the Fighter is that "Weapon Training" and "An ability that is essentially weapon training, but with a specific weapon" (e.g. the Crossbowman Archetype's "Crossbow Expert" which is mechanically identical to Weapon Training 1 with the Crossbow weapon group) are not treated interchangeably by the rules..

That is to say, a Crossbowman at level 5 has a specific flavored form of weapon mastery, but is ineligible to take AWT via feats and can't take Weapon Mastery feats without the Martial Focus feat tax. This is pretty silly.

So ideally we could rewrite a bunch of these archetypes with something like "At level 5 a Crossbowman gets Weapon Training 1, but must choose the Crossbow group."


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Viriato wrote:
The Dandy Lion wrote:
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Fighters have enough nice things, I'm just frustrated by the fact that fighter design means any unusual martial option will be near enough fighter-exclusive because of the investment required to get them.
The one thing the fighter is good at should require an investment from other classes to play with it, as said classes already have "unusual options" of their own.

This more creates the situation where I feel like the Fighter is showing itself to be an awkward dinosaur of a class that is actively holding other classes of its type back rather than contributing anything positive to the game.

I suspect part of the asinine logic that makes feat chains so bloody convoluted is the idea that this makes the fighter more appealing because he can complete them faster. It doesn't. It just makes people notice there's a lot of bloody feat taxes for not much payoff in styles like sword & board compared to two-handed fighting, which is feat light and also much more effective 90% of the time.

Then there's things like weapon masteries being gated off by Weapon Training, which you can view one of two ways, in my estimation...

1.) It's a good thing because there are actually things players WANT a fighter can do that another class can't do better!

2.) Because of this crappy class we've been trying to patch since the core rulebook, a number of interesting feats have been denied to martials in general to give the fighter and ONLY the fighter some toys to offset how lousy the class is compared to other martials.

Both views are valid, but I feel there are ways to improve the fighter's lot in life without denying access to cool things to other martials to try and make him look good by comparison.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

That is.. the most hilariously hamfisted false equivalency I've seen all week. Thanks.

I don't think I really need to explain the difference between 'I want functionality' and 'I want free power'. In fact I have a great deal of trouble that even you believe that's what I said, because it's not even remotely implied by the post. Note that I said 'just to make a combat style work', not 'just so I can kill everything for free because all I want is instant gratification'.

I generally don't like to assume bad faith in posters but I can't fathom any way that you could sincerely believe your own strawman here.

Even if we do take your 'point' to be true, you'd have to still concede that fighters are unhealthy for the game because they get things faster and easier.


Also Unchain Cavalier/Samurai (really, their Orders) while we're at it.


I'm not sure what they could do that DSP didn't already.


swoosh wrote:
No that's an awful way to design things. Someone shouldn't need to spend all their feats and wait until the campaign is half over to make a combat style work just to make fighters feel better about themselves.

If a fighter wants to use panache, ki, grit, rage, et al., he also has to spend extra feats, most of the time only to be able to dabble in said abilities. Works both ways.

Blackwaltzomega wrote:
I feel there are ways to improve the fighter's lot in life without denying access to cool things to other martials to try and make him look good by comparison.

I'm not advocating denying anything to any class. Only that, if you want to play with another class' toys/gimmick/raison d'être, you're expected to pay extra. Especially when you already have plenty of options of your own; options that can be expanded on in a book like this, too.

Grand Lodge

Personally, I think one of the simplest ways to make the fighter better would be to give it an Unchained version in which its BAB increased slightly faster than full. Like maybe he gets his 2nd attack at lvl 5 and his 3rd attack at level 10.

Think about it, how do you distinguish THE FIGHTER from other Full Martial classes. Make him better a fighting earlier on.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
The Shaman wrote:
Well, I´m still waiting for the Unchained Fighter, ever since the powers that be decided that it was the Barbarian who needed their attention ;).

Paizo apparently has no plans for anything like this.

Will this 3rd party product do?


whirlwind attack isn't another class' toys/gimmick/raison d'être. It's a feat. It has a long feat chain because the fighter can get it at lv6, getting it earlier is considered to powerful. But that means that normal classes can't get it till lv 11 I think. Whirlwind attack is advertised as a combat style, not a class feature of the fighter. This is what people have an issue with.

Weapon masteries are advertised as for the fighter, thus it's more okay having to pay extra to get them on other classes. and it's not a feat chain, but just a feat tax. I don't need to spend 5 feats just to pull off something with weapon mastery.


David knott 242 wrote:

Will this 3rd party product do?

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Chess Pwn wrote:
whirlwind attack isn't another class' toys/gimmick/raison d'être. It's a feat. It has a long feat chain because the fighter can get it at lv6, getting it earlier is considered to powerful. But that means that normal classes can't get it till lv 11 I think. Whirlwind attack is advertised as a combat style, not a class feature of the fighter. This is what people have an issue with.

Your point is well taken, but the fighter fights. It's his thing. It's all he does, really. He's supposed to be good at it, master it more easily, quicker and better than other classes. And, as it just so happens, being able to fight well and with options is mostly about feats. Which is why he has more of them, so it's hardly a sin that he masters a combat style sooner than other classes. Who, again, have other things to play with.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

That said, it is mighty annoying if feats are made unnecessarily dense just because the fighter's around, which sometimes seems like what happens.

A number of feat chains don't really need to be feat chains. Vital Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting really ought to scale into their improved and greater versions as BAB improves rather than require you to buy what is essentially the same g#@$%#n feat three times just to keep it relevant to your BAB. A new feat, in my mind, should mean a new behavior in combat, not maintaining basic competence with your fighting style. Almost every archery feat brings something new you can do with a bow, after all, and people would bloody riot if Power Attack was a three-feat chain to make it scale the way it currently does on its own.

The taxes in particular just feel irritating rather than making the fighter look better. Whirlwind Attack should just have a BAB prerequisite so it can't be taken "too early" if you're REALLY that afraid of something being able to attack a bunch of mooks at once in a setting where fireball becomes a fact of life after level 5, but I can't think of any good reason it has four prerequisite feats, NONE OF WHICH HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WHIRLWIND ATTACK DOES. Wouldn't it be better if game design ran on the assumption "the fighter has more feats than anyone else, so they can master multiple types of fighting styles faster than anyone else can" rather than "the fighter has more feats than anyone else, so we should include a lot of feat chains so he has to waste more of them paying his taxes and other classes won't even bother?" The fighter only gains from us consolidating the feat clutter in in the game, because if you prune the trees down to more manageable sizes for classes without bonus feats, the fighter can have a bonanza of tactics from mastering multiple pruned trees while others must limit themselves to one or two.

Some of the weapon masteries annoy me mostly because it's gating off certain things to only the fighter for no particular reason. Ricochet Toss is a godsend feat for throwing builds everywhere, but it has been declared "one of the fighter's things" even though a thrown-weapon specialist is one of the only weapon-focused archetypes the fighter DOESN'T have while the Flying Blade, who is built around throwing knives, has to pay extra to get access to a feat that finally lets him use his preferred style without a mandatory magical item.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
swoosh wrote:

That is.. the most hilariously hamfisted false equivalency I've seen all week. Thanks.

I don't think I really need to explain the difference between 'I want functionality' and 'I want free power'. In fact I have a great deal of trouble that even you believe that's what I said, because it's not even remotely implied by the post. Note that I said 'just to make a combat style work', not 'just so I can kill everything for free because all I want is instant gratification'.

I generally don't like to assume bad faith in posters but I can't fathom any way that you could sincerely believe your own strawman here.

Even if we do take your 'point' to be true, you'd have to still concede that fighters are unhealthy for the game because they get things faster and easier.

No you basically said you wish the fighter as a class would cease to exist because you feel YOUR IDEA of game would be better served if all martial classes could easily access stuff that makes choosing a fighter appealing.

Here's some thoughts for you:

-Other martials can complete chain feats. It just takes longer to do for them than it does for the fighter. On the other hand such classes have a host of specialized powers the fighter has no way to access on his own (unlike them to feats). What you want is those other martials to have easy and quick access to feat chains AND their own power sets. Greedy much?

-Weapon training and armor training are basically the only two abilities fighters get to keep (mostly) for themselves. Their powers were never great but AWT and AAT changed things a little. Suddenly the fighter having access to some exclusive features is an affront? How's that? Rage powers and the like have existed forever and in many cases are much stronger than feats AND Advanced fighter options BUT apparently you seem to think those other martial classes NEED to get access even to that stuff. You want them? Play a fighter.

I get you don't like fighters and would love to erase them, but did you ever consider there's actually a lot of people who like fighters and play fighters over other martials despite the class limitations?


Actually, I'd like to roll some of the other martial classes into Fighter archetypes, and roll a LOT of archetypes into class feature and feat choices you can make on any class (Oracle, Shaman, and Vigilante are sort of starts in this direction, and Alchemist, Arcanist, and Investigator do this to some extent; actually even Fighter does this to some extent and Warpriest to a lesser extent with all the bonus feats, but then they get it taxed right back out of them).

Mutants & Masterminds lets you build a la carte -- mmmmmm . . . make Pathfinder 2.0 a PF/M&M hybrid . . . .


Huh... "Ultimate Combat 2"

I don't see why they couldn't serialize these books like Bestiaries :P

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Cause they put the "Ultimate" in the name, so Ultimate 2 sounds really silly.


Rysky wrote:
Cause they put the "Ultimate" in the name, so Ultimate 2 sounds really silly.

Really? Are we gonna this picky about that now XD ?

"Supreme" is higher than "Ultimate", last time I've checked XDD

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Historically, things like Dungeonmaster's Guide 2 and Player's Handbook 2 have not done well... though personally I'd attribute that more to poor content than some magical marketing property of numberless titles.

That said, if they were going to serialize some of the hardcovers I'd suggest that Advanced Player's Guide # (for new player options), Gamemastery Guide # (for new systems / mechanics), Pathfinder Unchained # (for optional replacement rules), and a new 'Guide to Golarion #' series (for setting materials) would be the most logical choices.


ULTIMATE Ultimate Combat.

To show that it's even more ultimate than it was before.

Or have all future printings of the old Ultimate Combat be renamed to Penultimate Combat.


Well if we are going to say supreme It better live up to it and come with tomato, onion, and lettuce.


Honestly though after some research on the forums here and game play experience I think the best thing that could be done for the figther is enhance the skill system (and I don't mean with weird wonky feats) just make the skill system more robust and capable of greater things. Give the fighter some sort of out of combat ability choices and maybe give him 4 skill points per level. That and the weapon master and armor mastery stuff handles it I feel.

I do like the idea of making some of the archetypes as options that was one of the few things I liked about 5th.

And more non unarmed Martial arts styles would be awesome.


Rysky wrote:
Cause they put the "Ultimate" in the name, so Ultimate 2 sounds really silly.

You solve this by calling it "Ultimate Combat Volume 2".


I think Ultimate Combat 2 sounds fine.


Ultimate fighting! (wait isn't that a video game?)

Ultimate Aggressive Negotiations!

Ultimate Martial arts!

Ultimate that thing that happens after you roll init. ok ill stop


1 person marked this as a favorite.

^Ultimate Martial Arts has real potential if you make it actually be mostly about martial artists:

  • Classic Monk archetypes converted to Unchained Monk archetypes (except for the few that are already compatible or already baked into vanilla Unchained Monk);
  • Unarmed Kineticist and Monk archetypes that aren't underwhelming;
  • Make up for lost time on Brawlers;
  • Ninja Unchained and Ninja archetypes that actually work with it right away instead of having to wait for another supplement


You know technically Martial arts doesn't have to be all Asian themed I feel like the term nowadays gets used that way but really anything in the martial category should be able to be called a martial art whether it be fencing boxing jousting etc.


I agree with you there Vid. Martial arts can be boxing, Greco Roman wrestling, Collar and Elbow wrestling, Savate, Sambo, Krav Maga, Capoeira, Pankration, Kalaripayattu... every culture has their own fighting style, not just China and Japan. I feel limiting the book to just three Asian themed classes isn't going to have enough options to make it worth the money in my opinion.


I mean, HEMA is a thing now, and that stands for Historical European Martial Arts.

As it turned out, European combat was a lot more complicated than "clonk it with a metal stick or shoot it with arrows until it dies." I wouldn't mind seeing some of those complexities become viable options for a martial.


Yeah. Pretty much if you were a civilization that partook in hunting, raiding, and endemic warfare, and you survived that, then you knew how to fight. Especially if you had a professional career military program like the Roman Legion.

For a book like this, I'd like it to focus on the primary martial classes. If it did add spells, I'd prefer it stuck with the half casters only. So spells for the ranger, bard, paladin, warpriest... no cleric or wizard spells at all. Personally I think we have more than enough spells, so I'd really like a focus on the main, non-casting martial classes.


Ravingdork wrote:
swoosh wrote:
No that's an awful way to design things. Someone shouldn't need to spend all their feats and wait until the campaign is half over to make a combat style work just to make fighters feel better about themselves.

Oh?

So I suppose wizards should get meteor swarm at level 1 now too, eh? Cause why bother earning or waiting for anything?

It's not an awful way to design things. If that's the way the game worked, with all of the rewards up front and nothing to aspire to, no one would play the game for more than a few sessions before they got bored and moved on.

That is not what he was saying, not even close. Try reading it again.


Odraude wrote:
I agree with you there Vid. Martial arts can be boxing, Greco Roman wrestling, Collar and Elbow wrestling, Savate, Sambo, Krav Maga, Capoeira, Pankration, Kalaripayattu... every culture has their own fighting style, not just China and Japan. I feel limiting the book to just three Asian themed classes isn't going to have enough options to make it worth the money in my opinion.

Blame the World Wars and subsequent Japanese economic bubble for that (the second was in full force when D&D was making its sacred cows of table top). A massive loss to the European male population (most of the people who knew these were dead) and subsequent pop culture killing any interest in them hurt European martial arts badly.

I question the idea of martial arts being fundamentally different on the other side of the world though. It's documented that kendo and German fencing share most of their basic movements and stances (despite no contact) because that's the most efficient way for the human body to move.

Paizo Employee Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a post and response to it. Snarky ageist commentary doesn't have a place in this discussion.

1 to 50 of 60 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Paizo Products / Product Discussion / Another martial splatbook? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.