And this is assuming that I am using gold. I am not sure if I can use regular character's prestige to clear a death condition on a pregen.There is currently no method for spending Prestige (or gold) from Chronicles that have yet to be applied. Earlier in this Season, during other "Pregen death" threads, some tenured PFSers seemed to believe there was a way to do it, and that it had been done before, but yet were unable to lay out any plans for how to do so. Those earlier discussions are why Chris Mortika is asking "how?" in this thread. People obviously believe there's a way to do it, but nobody can describe it.
You spend your prestige and gold that you've already earned and applied.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You spend your prestige and gold that you've already earned and applied.And this is assuming that I am using gold. I am not sure if I can use regular character's prestige to clear a death condition on a pregen.There is currently no method for spending Prestige (or gold) from Chronicles that have yet to be applied. Earlier in this Season, during other "Pregen death" threads, some tenured PFSers seemed to believe there was a way to do it, and that it had been done before, but yet were unable to lay out any plans for how to do so. Those earlier discussions are why Chris Mortika is asking "how?" in this thread. People obviously believe there's a way to do it, but nobody can describe it.
*If* you have your paperwork with you. But if you had your paperwork with you, you might not have played a pregen.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The weird thing to me is seeing people refer to playing a pregen as "no risk".
Playing a pregen is *higher* risk. You are playing a character that is probably weaker than your own, with more limited resources, and less ability to bring her back from the dead, and using up your only opportunity to play the scenario to boot.
And in return you get *lower* rewards -- no day job, faction card checkoffs, and a chronicle you can't use until the future.
So no need to act like people playing pregens are getting away with something...it's already a lousy deal.
|
If Leadership wants to add a "chip in from their actual character" clause, it'll have to be a solid paragraph describing exactly how we should do so.
What to write, where and how to write it, how to deal with uncertainty, how it should be reported, accountability and handling errors.
I'm not against it, but I also can't fathom how it could be worded in the Guide. Implementation just seems monumental, IMO.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you die during a scenario, than you need to get fixed at the end, or that character is dead period. Don't care if your a pregen or regular character.
What happens if you die with a pregen and than die again with the character that would have died but was left in death credit by what you expletive are proposing?
If that character should be dead, but gets to write off when they die for x amount of chronicles, than why not do that for everyone?
I'd seriously lose it at a table if I found out someone died in a mod they can't apply and than they died at the table I'm at, and potentially got others killed with a character that should be dead. In fact I'd demand for the table to overruled and that I'd be given a chance to replay with my character with a group of fully alive pathfinders, not death cheaters.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
|
The gp cost referred to in that quote is coming from the Chronicle being earned by playing the Pregen.
Not gold previously earned by the actual character that the Chronicle is being applied to.
OK I can see that reading but I don't think that was the intent. I think the intent was all resouces. As already stated when the guide is updated this will have clearer language.
|
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
|
Indeed. It's certainly on their radar.
If the intention is to use resources that aren't available yet, hopefully it can be worded succinctly.
I am not understanding the "resources that aren't available yet" part. The character that the chronical is being appled to has some amount of gold and pp based on the last chronicle. It is that gold and pp that is available to the character to clear the death.
What am I missing.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
|
One way to charge the regular character would be to put it on the ITS for the next chronicle. Chronicles are supposed to be numbered, and those boxes are supposed to refer to those numbers.
This obviously doesn't work if the reason they are playing the pregen is they forgot their paperwork. In other cases, it should still work.
As it is, I feel that there is already a lot of paperwork for PFS. It mostly works, but I would rather see it get simpler rather than more complex.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
|
|
If the intention is to use resources that aren't available yet, hopefully it can be worded succinctly.I am not understanding the "resources that aren't available yet" part.
As stated up thread, when you're playing a Pregen, you may only apply that credit to a character of lower level.
EDIT: Page 7 of the 11 Page discussion we had last time about this topic enumerates a number of concerns rather well. For people who haven't read through it all, it's a valuable read.
|
|
One of the most interesting things about this discussion, to me, is how confused each side is about the other's confusion. The other thread highlights that well, I think.
At least with other rules discussions it's usually one side versus the other, "I'm right" and "You're wrong", agree or disagree.
But with this, neither side can fathom what's going on in the other side's head.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seelah/7 died yesterday in the game I was running, and, while searching around, I came across this thread. The debate here is good, but, to me, it looks like some of it may be moot, at least with respect to upper-level pregens. But, that is not to say that the concerns aren't valid ones. Some of the issues, however, may be clarity-related, rather than Paizo's intent to kill underlying PCs or make players suffer. (At least that wouldn't be my first interpretation, since it would be self-limiting in terms of campaign support.) So, some additional commentary may help for others who end up here as I did.
7th-level pregens are surprisingly self-sufficient when they die in upper-level scenarios. The Season 8 Guide (p.6) is relatively clear on using resources associated with the adventure during the session. For example, if the player can sell the pregen's gear, then, intuitively, the player can (and should) use any of the rewards the pregen earned in the scenario (including gold), whether or not the rewards have been, or can be, "applied" to the underlying PC.
As long as the session is active (which lasts as long as everyone is still at the table), then things play out in that time-shifted context. When the scenario/session "ends," time shifts back to the underlying PC and the credit goes to held mode. It just means that there will be reduced gold in the future when the chronicle can be applied (at 18XP). It would be nice if the Guide were perfectly explicit on this point (which it isn't, exactly), but it's probably more clear than many of the other rules we have to adjudicate as GMs where perfect clarity is, aptly, "high fantasy." ^_^
For example: Tier 7-11 gold is usually at least 4K+ and Seelah/7 gear has a 1/2 sale value of 10K+. So, with a mandatory 2K personal cost for a pregen/7 (as per the S8 Guide p. 6) subtracted from the chronicle and 6K from the sale of gear, Seelah leaps back to life and gets rid of her negative levels (8010gp total, assuming the party carries their dead back to Absalom -- no body recovery needed). Other 7th-level pregens have similar resources available. The death is costly, but not unmanageable. And, as others point out, it would be grossly unfair to kill underlying PCs who can't possibly have the resources available, especially given that the availability of pregens is to foster participation rather than hinder it.
Arguably, at 1st level, pregen death isn't catastrophic, and at 4th level, recovery is harder, but benefits from player contributions and is manageable. In concrete terms, 4th level rewards are usually 1300-1800gp and Seelah/4 gear (as in this particular example) has a sale value of about 2700gp. So, that leaves an outstanding balance of ~4K (or less) that either has to come from ally altruism or the underlying PC. The stated minimum player gold recovery cost of 1000gp when using a 4th-level pregen doesn't really matter, since the recovery has a higher cost than the sale value of the pregen gear. It could be 0gp or 3000gp -- the player is still going to have to account for over 5K based on the gear/4.
To that end, the S8 Guide goes on to say (p.18) that "players are encouraged to share their physical resources in order to resolve any and all conditions." (including death) So, at 7th, 2000gp/x (where x is the number of players at the table) is also a legal and viable strategy. You should mention this option to the table, because 500gp or less a piece is an altruistic expense that allows the player who used the pregen (whether new to PFS or otherwise) to earn a little more gold for the adventure with a mortal mishap. As a GM, you just need to note the PFS IDs of the players who opted to contribute on the pregen chronicle.
As above, the metrics are more onerous at 4th level, but upper-level pregen death is usually very recoverable, whether or not the underlying character to which the chronicle will be assigned has the requisite gold or prestige available to foot the bill. So, at the high level, enjoy the pregens, try out new classes, play at tables, support local PFS, and have a good time! You will live to fight another day, even if you lose a bit on the chronicle in the (hopefully unlikely) event that you die during the scenario.
If you'd like to learn how Seelah died, you can read the tale of her death below. By Iomedae's blade...what a battle! ...especially in 4-player when the heavy hitter PC is carrying 6 negative levels from a prior encounter's enervations!
Seelah, the Victorious!
Yesterday, brave Seelah of the 7th Tier of Iomedae was strangled to death by a deadly plant. True to the Code of the Paladin, she strode forward and made a bold entreaty for peace and virtue. However, when peace seemed unlikely and she saw other enslaved Pathfinders being forced to dig their own graves, she sought to smite the evil plant creature for its perfidy, even while fighting back a strange fog that threatened to cloud her mind.
Unfortunately, Seelah failed to act quickly enough, and the thorny, constricting tendrils of woe wrapped around her, drawing her near and snaking into the gaps in her contorted armor. The tendrils bathed in gouts of Seelah's righteous blood as they laid bare her divine flesh. Iomedae was saddened that day as the villainous vegetation mocked her fallen daughter. Using the tendrils as malevolent marionette's strings, the wicked plant animated Seelah in a meat-puppet pantomime of pseudo-valor as her allies looked on in horror.
But, all was not lost! Severely beaten, bloody and magically exhausted, the Pathfinders rallied and, with great difficulty, turned the tide of the battle, freeing the thralls, and winning the day in honor of Seelah's tragic sacrifice.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It just comes back to "How?"
Regardless of whether you're playing a 4th Level or 7th Level Pregen, it remains unclear how the actual character's resources can be utilized (whether or not the player has their Chronicles with them).
Sure, a Level 7 Pregen has enough wealth available for a raise dead, using their gear and/or Chronicle gold, but they don't have the Prestige for a body recovery if the party TPKs.
If we're going to revisit this topic, I think the most productive discussion we can have as a community is working on the how.
|
|
Hey there, Nefreet. Thx for your other comments in this thread. I agree, but, taking my earlier post into consideration, I don't see any remaining open "How" issues for anything except body recovery (assuming there is something left to recover ^_^ "Bad Inverted Giant! Do NOT eat that Pathfinder!") with respect to a possible future gp equivalent.
Maybe 1500-1700gp would be reasonable? Objectively, there really should be a gold cost so that non-PFSers or those without PP can have a documented way to recover a fallen comrade.
Page 6 of the Season 8 Guide makes clear distinctions in terminology between A. The Pregenerated Character and B. The Roleplaying Guild Character (personal PC) and explains what crosses over between the contexts during the active session when playing a pregen:
"In addition, the player can contribute the associated Roleplaying Guild character’s resources (gp and Prestige Points) to this end." [...to resolve conditions, including death, which includes recovery.]
So, the (S8) Guide tells you exactly How and What can be contributed and the When is only while the session is active, as above.
Currently, as long as the RPG character has 5PP (very low onus in PFS, at least), or maybe a boon, etc., great! Otherwise, as above, it would be nice if there were a gold equivalent so that players could hire grizzled NPC grave robbers or mercenaries to go and fetch dead PCs (again, assuming there is something left to recover).
Am I misunderstanding your point, or do you see any other open issues besides the gp equivalent for recovery?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How is not explained. At all.
Say your PC is exactly 3rd level, and you sit down with a 4th level Pregen. It dies.
The section you're quoting states that the character's resources can be utilized. How? What is written? Where is it written?
A year later and I have zero idea how to use the resources of that 3rd level character.
How would you do it, specifically? We need details.
And we need two sets of instructions. One assuming that the player has their character's Chronicles, and one assuming they don't.
|
|
Sorry - I guess you've lost me. As far as I can see, it's written on page 6 in the Guide.
Pregen/4 dies, the player (or table) must come up with a minimum of 1000gp before the sale of pregen gear. Another ~2500gp+ comes from selling the pregen/4 gear. So...we're up to 3500 of 8010 (or 5450 if you ignore the cost of the negative levels).
Whatever remains comes from a table split (including the session gold from the chronicle of the pregen), and then, if necessary, comes from the player's Level 3 PC. The player can apply gold, prestige, sell gear, etc. which is all qualified by the statement: "the player can contribute the associated Roleplaying Guild character’s resources (gp and Prestige Points) to this end." Sale of personal gear is implied by "gp" for anything that has a gp value.
So, if there is still some other ambiguity, can you qualify what you mean with an example so that I can better understand your point that I appear to be missing? I would like to understand!
ps. ...and there is no gp equiv. for Recovery. If the PC is left behind (or TPK) and the Level 3 does not have at least 5PP, then the body cannot (currently) be recovered. Hopefully, that will change in the future.
|
|
Whatever remains comes from a table split (including the session gold from the chronicle of the pregen), and then, if necessary, comes from the player's Level 3 PC. The player can apply gold, prestige, sell gear, etc. which is all qualified by the statement: "the player can contribute the associated Roleplaying Guild character’s resources (gp and Prestige Points) to this end." Sale of personal gear is implied by "gp" for anything that has a gp value.
However, it is not indicated *how* it 'times out'.
Does it take place on the last chronicle the L3 character played, or on the L4 pregen-used chronicle?
If it happens on the L4 pregen-used chronicle, and the chronicle is being 'held' for L4 (as is required) does it put the character into a quantum wave-length state where they are neither alive nor dead until the chronicle applies, at which point the chronicle needs to be paid in full?
Technically, a pre-gen character cannot use the resources of the character they are 'subbing in' for.
This would extend to gp/prestige.
This in turn makes the only 'player resources' available the chronicle on which the pregen died (instead of the combined resources an 'organic' character would potentially have).
Personally? I wish this would just go away in Season 9's guide. It was too confusing and if it can't seem to be resolved in a timely and orderly fashion perhaps it is too complex of an issue to consider for organized play? Truth-in-text, I do have a bias as I do prefer to play pregens rather than 'go home' or 'not show up to play'.
|
|
On the plus side, this is only really an issue if a Level 4 Pregen dies. A Level 7 Pregen has the resources available immediately (other than PP), and a Level 1 wouldn't have enough resources anyways.
So, the simplest solution I can come up with to address the problem is to never play a Level 4 Pregen and assign the Chronicle to a # I care about.
|
|
On the plus side, this is only really an issue if a Level 4 Pregen dies. A Level 7 Pregen has the resources available immediately (other than PP), and a Level 1 wouldn't have enough resources anyways.
So, the simplest solution I can come up with to address the problem is to never play a Level 4 Pregen and assign the Chronicle to a # I care about.
Alternatively, drag down a 1-5 table to the low tier to minimize risk with a character that is sub L4.
Doesn't work quite as well for 3-7, though.
|
|
On the plus side, this is only really an issue if a Level 4 Pregen dies. A Level 7 Pregen has the resources available immediately (other than PP), and a Level 1 wouldn't have enough resources anyways.
So, the simplest solution I can come up with to address the problem is to never play a Level 4 Pregen and assign the Chronicle to a # I care about.
Bad news, it's an issue at level 7 as well.
The player can use the pregenerated character’s funds—including selling her gear at half price—to pay... [for spell casting services]...
The Roleplaying Guild character must contribute a minimum amount of gp before spending the pregenerated character’s wealth in this way, depending on her level: 0 gp for a 1st-level pregenerated character, 1,000 gp for 4th-level, and 2,000 gp for 7th-level.
|
|
To me, the context in the Guide seems clear and provides for the exception of using the base PC's resources to help resolve pregen conditions. The references are mutually exclusive. Since the player is using a pregen/x, any references to their Roleplaying Guild Character must mean the base (out-of-session context) PC (and not the in-session pregen).
Therefore, if your base PC has gold and prestige, use it, as needed. It is the allowed exception and the fair, legal and compassionate thing to do as a GM to help resolve all conditions at the table. Fun should be the 1st priority and intentionally killing off PCs is not in the interest of fun.
I understand and embrace the need for detail, but in this case, I think if you take a step back, you may see that the Guide is OK on this issue, except for a gp equivalent for body recovery.
OK In-Session Pregen resources to use to resolve conditions:
- chronicle gold
- personal gold and gear (providing you meet the stated minimum)
OK Out-Of-Session Roleplaying Guild PC resources to use to resolve conditions:
- gold (and anything with gp equivalent that you can sell)
- Prestige
OK Table resources to use to resolve conditions:
- anything players want to contribute, either to meet the minimum required before selling the pregen gear, or to help defray the cost of anything that remains after the sale of gear (especially level 4)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Keep in mind, HoloGnome, that the bulk of this thread took place within the last year, during the Season 8 Guide that you're quoting. You're bringing nothing new to the discussion. Saying that you don't see the confusion ignores the other posters in this thread who clearly have an issue (myself included).
I again ask "How?" I don't ask how to be difficult. I legitimately do not see how you can use resources that are as yet nonexistent and/or unavailable (and that's assuming the player even has their Chronicles with them). I ask "How?" because I want to know. It seems easy for you. Other previous posters have said the same thing.
But nobody has been able to explain the how. Please, walk us through what you see, or what you've done, in explicit detail. What are you writing? Where are you writing it? What do you do when the player doesn't have their Chronicles? This is your chance to put an end to a long running dilemma.
EDIT: You ninja'd me by 2 minutes. Reading your comment now.
EDIT#2: Nope. Still no answer. Please, elaborate.