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A group I'm playing in just added the GM's 12-year-old daughter. She's doing okay, except that somehow she ended up with a fighter/wizard. (Her dad's old-school advice, I think, given some sort of preference on her part.) As I feared, it's beyond her capability! She's talking about switching to just fighter.
However, I've noticed Bloodrager in the ACG. It seems like it might be a magic-light option for a fighter/caster: something that would let her learn a few magic abilities at a time and play her character with greater confidence, yet still have a "magical" flavor to a front-line fighter.
What do you all think of Bloodrager for a beginner?
If it matters, she's currently playing an elf, and probably would keep that race. I have to admit, it doesn't seem the most elvish of classes...
Draconic Bloodrager. Make sure her stats are okay and she'll do fine as a natural attacker, even if she completely blows her feat/spell selection.
Using Rage rounds wisely early on might be a bit much for a younger player, but besides that I think it'd be fine.
While not great there is a fighter archetype called child of acavna and amaznen. She goes straight fighter but losses some abilities to gain a handful of spells. Also a paladin or ranger might work too. They are more combat but with a handful of spells. Obviously with the ranger I would go without a companion
I think bloodrager is a fantastic choice for a beginner. A lot of the best parts of the barbarian, a lot of the best flavor bits from the sorcerer, and a spellcasting progression that makes it easier to pick up, since you get it later in the game. Plus, spontaneous spells are just easier.
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Great idea my son's first PC was a Bloodrager and it worked out well. Perfect for a beginner! For a beginner It is important to have fun and smashing things with rage is fun.
I like the destined bloodline combined with the steel blood archetype although the arcane bloodline is the best in my opinion. I like destined for a beginner because rage is a limited resource and destined strike will allow her to have an ability to use when she runs out of rage rounds and it has a simple level 4 ability straight bonus to AC and saves.
Thank you all! I'll let her & the GM pick the bloodline. I just want to hand them a print-out of the class, and make a sales pitch. I've seen a lot of buzz for the class here, but I've also seen a lot of buzz for magus -- and that most definitely is NOT a good class for a beginner! So I wanted to know if I'd have a good class to sell them or not.
My personal feeling, Dominus, is that claw attacks are too wimpy -- buuuut, that may be because I tend to play low-strength characters! If she likes Draconic, great.
I have to say, G-unit, Destined appeals to me for her, but... I'm thinking that the sales job will be simpler if I leave archetypes out of it. How well does Destined work, do you think, without the Steel Blood?
And then there's the elvish influence. How well does the class work with, say, the Fey bloodline? [Added to clarify: Given that it looks wimpy to me, but just might appeal to her...]
While not great there is a fighter archetype called child of acavna and amaznen. She goes straight fighter but losses some abilities to gain a handful of spells. Also a paladin or ranger might work too. They are more combat but with a handful of spells. Obviously with the ranger I would go without a companion
Thanks for the ideas. Can you give me a link to the fighter archetype you mentioned?
Unfortunately, I'm betting that she's too chaotic (read: young) to play a paladin successfully. And the problem with ranger is that it preserves the class feature of wizard that she's had the most problem with: preparing spells. Yes, the list is shorter, but that doesn't mean she'll know what she should pick, or once she's picked, what she has when the brown stuff is flying. I really, really like spontaneous for newbie casters!
I have to say, G-unit, Destined appeals to me for her, but... I'm thinking that the sales job will be simpler if I leave archetypes out of it. How well does Destined work, do you think, without the Steel Blood?
Destined works fine without steel soul I would definitely recommend taking the fate's favored trait to increase the luck bonus by 1.
And then there's the elvish influence. How well does the class work with, say, the Fey bloodline? [Added to clarify: Given that it looks wimpy to me, but just might appeal to her...]
Fey bloodline is a little wimpy but it is useful if she is going to use a high crit rage weapon (like the elven curved blade) to get the most out of the 1st level ability (keep in mind that the save DC is based on constitution something she will take a hit on as an elf).
It is also a useful bloodline (4th level ability) if she does a lot of charging and the GM uses difficult terrain.
Overall I think Arcane is a better bloodline and can fit the elf pretty well. I would make one other suggestion and suggest she play a half elf as you get the floating stat bonus and don't take the hit on constitution (which will effect her hip points and rage rounds).
Another option is if she is set on elf could be go with Urban Bloodrager and go with a ranged weapon and/or finesse build. But this is pretty feat intensive.
Bloodrager is an excellent starting class. It has a nice progression, starting with keeping track of a resource and eventually introducing spells.
As for the bloodline, you don't have to worry too much about which one. Pick a couple, and let her pick between them! (Certainly, some things should be left off- Arcane is a little complex, and anything with extra reach/size might confuse matters.) So… Celestial, Destined, Fey, Elemental, or Undead?
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Bloodrager is a very powerful class. I recommend the Arcane Bloodline and Give her Shield and Scimitar to start. After level 4 she can abandon the Shield relying on Blur/Displacement for her AC while she swings a weapon 2 handed. I still recommend swinging the Scimitar 2 handed. Damage dice between it and a falchion are negligible. And if she is Grabbed or Grappled she can keep swinging 1 handed.
If you want to keep it Basic then pick feats like:
Power Attack
Raging Vitality
Iron Will
Toughness
Improved Critical (you want a 15-20 critical rating)
Arcane Strike
Bloodrager is great for beginners but an advanced player can use one to dominate in combat. One of my Top 5 classes.
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I still recommend swinging the Scimitar 2 handed. Damage dice between it and a falchion are negligible.
I don't know if 1.5 damage is negligible. And it goes up to 2 damage if you use a nodachi instead of a falchion. Plus the nodachi has Brace, though that doesn't come up often. (From a purely optimizing perspective, the only time a falchion should be used is a half-orc without martial proficiency.)
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I still recommend swinging the Scimitar 2 handed. Damage dice between it and a falchion are negligible.I don't know if 1.5 damage is negligible. And it goes up to 2 damage if you use a nodachi instead of a falchion. Plus the nodachi has Brace, though that doesn't come up often. (From a purely optimizing perspective, the only time a falchion should be used is a half-orc without martial proficiency.)
Except you still get the 1.5 damage.
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
The DICE is negligible. 2d4 verse 1d6 is not much but the option of being able to swing in a grab/grapple situation helps to just kill the thing that grabbed hold of you.
Nodachi is a nice weapon and all but it is still 2 handed and EXTEREMLY rare to have one drop unless your playing in a heavy eastern themed fantasy or have an Eastern styled character/theme going on. The damage dice is very nice but rarely do I get excited on the Dice of an attack unless it's some sort of Vital strike build where the dice actually matters.
Back to the original question, I agree that Bloodrager is pretty good for a beginner. It allows them to slowly learn more as they go forward.
I would be concerned about doing it as an Elf because of the Con penalty. Raging Vitality really helps keep a Bloodrager from dying as the rage ends. Would a half-elf do?
The single most important thing is figuring out what will capture the kid's imagination. If they are interested in the character, they are much more likely to maintain concentration during the game and read up more about what it can do. Pick something that fits the kids interests.
What captures their imagination needs to trump other concerns here.
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The DICE is negligible. 2d4 verse 1d6 is not muchIt's 1.5 damage on average. I didn't say 1.5x STR damage. I said 1.5 damage.
Arguably it's worth the versatility to two-hand a one-handed weapon, but I still don't think that 1.5 damage is negligible.
I've never an enemy standing with 1 hp. Usually on a bloodrager you overkill the target. Majority of the time the question is Whats your Minimum damage? OK it's dead. You could play the class taking minimum weapon damage and still be better off than lots of builds. For instance my S&S Bloodrager was doing 1d6+30 at Level 12. On a 15-20 critical weapon that is 62 damage minimum, 1/3 of your rolls will usually critical. If you pay 50gp for Oil of Bless Weapon you Auto confirm those critical threats. With Extra attacks coming from Haste and Come and Get Me, most stuff dies way too fast for 1.5 damage to even matter.
But I am only going off my experiences.
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With Extra attacks coming from Haste and Come and Get Me, most stuff dies way too fast for 1.5 damage to even matter.
1. It's 1.5 (or 2 with nodachi) damage per swing - not total.
2. You seem to be assuming play at high levels, where I'll agree that 1.5/2 damage per swing (3 or 4 on a crit) has less of an impact. For the first 8-10 levels it can be pretty significant.
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With Extra attacks coming from Haste and Come and Get Me, most stuff dies way too fast for 1.5 damage to even matter.1. It's 1.5 (or 2 with nodachi) damage per swing - not total.
2. You seem to be assuming play at high levels, where I'll agree that 1.5/2 damage per swing (3 or 4 on a crit) has less of an impact. For the first 8-10 levels it can be pretty significant.
1. I Know it is per swing.
2. Yes I always assume playing a full length Campaign, not merely low level stuff.
Perhaps I should mention that my novice co-adventurer will be starting play at 10th level...
Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait [free Skill Focus].
Elven curve blade: 80 gp; 1d10; 18–20/×2; 7 lbs; S
The thing is, she presumably would be going for a STR build, so she wouldn't need Weapon Finesse -- and yes, she'd still need that back-up one-hander in case of being grappled. So it's a little odd. OTOH, the blade does 1d10 w/ a crit range of 18-20!!! Make that pup Keen (or get Improved Critical, which she would already qualify for), and she'll be terrifying enough, wouldn't both of you agree?
And yes, I can point out how well the weapon works with Fey -- if she has a high CON.
To summarize the rest of the recommendations I've gotten so far (and feel free to keep adding ideas, please!; these are great) ...
- Celestial
- Destined
- Draconic
- Elemental
- Fey
Left off:
- Arcane -- it seems controversial for a beginner, and I'm thinking too focused against casters to be fun in a variety of situations.
- Undead -- I could be wrong, but I don't think she's goth (yet).
Fate's Favored: The fates watch over you. Whenever you are under the effect of a luck bonus of any kind, that bonus increases by 1.
For magic items, that makes the Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone) (Slotless, 20K gp; gives +1 Luck bonus on saves, skills, ability checks = Init!) a great buy.
I'd especially love more suggestions for traits; her dad will allow them, but isn't familiar with them. (While I've used them, but only for specific characters, and casters at that. Help would be terrific.)
- Iron Will
- Power Attack
- Toughness
Plus maybe:
- Arcane Strike -- Is burning a feat really better than enchanting your weapon? (What caster level is a 10th level bloodrager? 10th or 7th?)
- Improved Critical -- Is burning a feat really better than Keen?
- Raging Vitality -- Why is it so good? Forgive the naivete; I've never played a barbarian myself. But it looks like its benefits, while great if you go unconscious, otherwise end just when you need HP most.
Actually, her dad (our GM) can help her with barb feats, I'm sure. What feats would tie into specific bloodlines?
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Perhaps I should mention that my novice co-adventurer will be starting play at 10th level...
** spoiler omitted **
To summarize the rest of the recommendations I've gotten so far (and feel free to keep adding ideas, please!; these are great) ...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Weapon-
A curve blade is Fine and will do lots of damage. I as a player never understood the Idea of a back up weapon other than Special material reasons.Bloodlines-
Arcane seems focused on Fighting magical things. That is what makes it great. Most higher end encounters have SLAs or Spells on the creatures they throw at you. Dragons, Outsiders, Powerful Wizards...all things that need to die and die quickly before they mess your party up. The real Beauty of the Bloodline is the Ability to take Displacement while you rage. 50% miss chance is very good defensive ability. The other spells you can duplicate are pretty good too. Resist energy is always good as a Layered Defense. That is what the Arcane Bloodrager offers. I tend to trade off my Level 12 Power with the Primalist Archetype to grab Come and Get me and what ever other Rage power I like looking at. Internal Fortitude is worthy of mentioning giving you straight immunity to nauseated and sickened conditions. But Killing Casters is not a bad thing at all since you will see them a lot from Level 10+
Traits:
Magical trait- Transmuter: +1 CL on all Transmutation spells. 1/day Extended Animal Buff (I like Cat's Grace or Owl's Wisdom). At level 11 Learn Greater Magic Weapon and you Can give your weapon +3 and add in Furious your looking at a +5 weapon. Make it adamantine and use Oils of Bless you can bypass most DR.
Fate's Favored is great when dealing with Luck bonuses. Half Orc + Fate's Favored + Sacred tattoo is +2 to all saves which is better than 3 feats combined without a feat investment. A Destined Bloodrager can get GREAT mileage out of this Trait.
Feats w/ questions:
Arcane Strike- This is a Damage boost. The Bypassing DR is not what it is for it is for +1-5 damage and opens up for Bloodied Arcane Strike and Raging Brutality at 13. Static Damage per swing is what this feat is.
Improved Critical- Yes worth it more with the Feat. As mention the Oil of Bless weapon is 50gp. Auto confirms your critical but does not stack with Keen enchantment, only works with Improved Critical. Secondly a Bloodrager wants a +1 Furious Adamantine weapon. Your next enhancement would be Spell storing or Holy. Keen is nice and all but your weapon will have other enchantment that are better.
Raging Vitality- Because you have never experienced Sudden death syndrome. Say you are a -15 HP after an attack and your con is 15...if your rage ends your dead....its that simple. This Ability keeps your rage going thus increasing the amount of negatives you can dip when you go down. It also provides +2 more CON while raging. On some builds you have rage powers going like Displacement or Fast Healing that you do not want to just abruptly end. This can give you rounds alive so you can get back up. It is as simple as that.
Fruian already described why Raging Vitality can be important.
On one of my Bloodragers (yes, I have multiple), I took the Magic is Life trait (tied to Nethys) and a wand of Endure Elements. Use the wand each day, auto stabilization and a bonus to death saves.
The traits that give a bonus to Will saves are good.
If you've got Familair Folio, it gives a way for Bloodragers to get familiars. Spend a feat on Improved Familair and she could have a cute (and effective) fairy dragon, lyrakien or other fun Familiar. That said, even a normal one can be lots of fun.
Watch what bloodline you take if you go for the damage boost from Arcane Strike -- some of them need their swift actions. If you go that way, also consider Riving Strike so that the wizard/Sorceror in the group has an easier time.
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Selling her on being a half-elf (and I fully understand why elf would be sub-optimal) might be easier if I fail to mention either scimitar or falchion, and instead suggest taking the Ancestral Arms racial trait for elven curved blade. I suspect she'll like the flavor, despite Fruian's understandable concern about needing a one-handed weapon from time to time.
See if the GM will houserule in the Unchained Barbarian's rage. Not only will it be simpler for her (the main point of the rage change) but it would make a regular elf wielding an Elven Curved Blade with Weapon Finesse quite viable.
Well, I've talked to the GM & he looked the class up in the PRD. Luckily, he's amenable! Sadly, he cut me off when I started to pass on the substantive comments you all have made. I did get in the suggestion about half-elf w/ the elven curved blade...
I'll try to look at her traits later, when I know what bloodline the player (and her father!) has selected. Otherwise, I'll probably have to take a back seat on the details of her character design. :( ...You've given me such good advice, I wish I could pass it on!
- Fate's Favored -- for Destined
Half Orc + Fate's Favored + Sacred tattoo is +2 to all saves which is better than 3 feats combined without a feat investment.
My half-orc sorceress has noticed this! :)
- Tenacious Shifting ("You've discovered the secret of stable transmutations. Any transmutation spell you cast upon yourself has its duration increased by 2 rounds. Transmutation spells with an instantaneous duration are not affected by this trait." is the closest trait I could find in Ultimate Campaign related to Fruian's recommendation below; please, only traits in the PRD! I can't believe this is what you're talking about, Fruian, since it only applies to personal spells. Is Tenacious Shifting worth it? Which bloodlines?
Magical trait- Transmuter: +1 CL on all Transmutation spells. 1/day Extended Animal Buff (I like Cat's Grace or Owl's Wisdom). At level 11 Learn Greater Magic Weapon and you Can give your weapon +3 and add in Furious your looking at a +5 weapon. Make it adamantine and use Oils of Bless you can bypass most DR.
- Magic is Life (Nethys) -- presumably, for all bloodlines
- Any w/ bonus to Will saves -- presumably, for all bloodlines
And for feats, the Arcane Strike tree will lead to Blooded Arcane Strike & Riving Strike; definitely something for me to keep in mind for gentle suggestions, for leveling up if nothing else.
Above all, thank you, one and all, for the encouragement to recommend the class. I hope that my fellow player goes this route; I think she'll enjoy it a whole lot more than her current character.
The Curved Blade is a good flavor option, though in my opinion, the Nodachi does all that you expect the Curved Blade to do, and then some. In truth, the only reason to take the Elven Curved Blade over any other weapon is for the Unchained Rogue Finesse Training feature, where you get 1.5x Dexterity to your damage rolls. It's otherwise quite sub-par.
The racial trait for the proficiency would've been better for the +2 to all Will Saves option. If this is for the fun of the player, I'm sure you'd agree it probably isn't fun to be hit with Hold Person or similar effects and be useless (or even killed outright) in a given combat, which the +2 would go a long way of helping, especially since Bloodragers do not get the Good Will Save progression. Of course, if the GM is nice, he would either nerf those effects, or simply not cast them. But you never know...
Destined Bloodline is a solid choice; you can boost your attacks when you absolutely need them, and the ability to reroll or negate attacks entirely is powerful. Bonuses to AC and Saves are also incredibly powerful, as well as the bonus spells and bonus feats. The only downside is that those benefits only apply during Bloodrage, and if you're already unconscious, you're basically dead. I suggest picking up the Raging Vitality feat, for the extra hit points, and the ability to maintain Bloodrage while unconscious; the Diehard feat is also a solid option, so you can still act, even when you're supposed to be unconscious.
Also, certain archetypes are definitely worth looking into. Blood Riders, for example, get an animal companion (which can be equal to your class level with the Boon Companion feat) to ride on, and several benefits and options of your Personal spells and Bloodrage abilities apply to them as well.
If you're wanting to be Natural Weapon-based, the Rageshaper archetype gives you options to boost your natural attacks, as well as options to buff your Transmutation spells.
You did what you could. Good luck!
Almost any Bloodrager build is going to be strong. I don't think that the original poster was looking to build the most powerful character possible.
They wanted a character that is simple to run, interesting, and combines magic with combat prowess.
It seems that the original poster as already done as much as they can to guide the build. At this point, we wish them the best and hope the kid likes the results. Few things are as bad as a bored kid running a character they feel no attachment to.
Almost any Bloodrager build is going to be strong. I don't think that the original poster was looking to build the most powerful character possible.
They wanted a character that is simple to run, interesting, and combines magic with combat prowess.
It seems that the original poster as already done as much as they can to guide the build. At this point, we wish them the best and hope the kid likes the results. Few things are as bad as a bored kid running a character they feel no attachment to.
You got it! Hole in one, and all that. She's been yelled at by her parents for wanting to head off to the couch mid-game -- bored really is the point. She's playing a 5th-level fighter in a 10th-level game, since she doesn't know how to play even a 5th-level wizard effectively. (Not that multi-classing 5th & 5th is the most effective strategy for Pathfinder; I know that, but like I said to begin with, her father is old-school.) I hope playing a 10th-level bloodrager grabs her attention and keeps her invested in the game! Even given just the options in the base class description, which I know is all the GM will allow. (I'm genuinely grateful he's willing to pull from the Advanced Class Guide at all.)
I was leery of suggesting the class to a rank newbie. You all encouraged me, and I'm very grateful -- even if specific build advice isn't going to be applicable. I'd have loved to pass on bloodlines, feats & all that, but he's handling it, loud and clear. Fine. Traits, OTOH, I don't think he'll handle at all, and so I may be able to recommend them to the player post-build but pre-play. Certainly, I'll want to arrive at the November game armed with some trait suggestions for the player to look over. Similarly, I think I can suggest feats she could pick as she levels up. We'll see.
She'll be better off as a bloodrager with even sub-optimal choices is what matters.
I'm an old-school father myself, and my 30-year-old daughter accused me last week of addiction to multiclassing. I pointed out that I haven't multiclassed my 12th-level bloodrager character, but eventually had to concede the argument because hybrid classes are multiclassing vertically instead of horizontally.
My bloodrager character is a Kellid girl adopted by a wizard, so she was a barbarian who wanted to be a wizard, but ended up tapping into her bloodline instead. Thus, my character is very much like a wizard/barbarian multiclass, but easier to play and more effective. It sounds like Bitter Lily has a good alternative for her young friend.
I offer one possibility if the 12-year-old girl liked some of the wizard spells that are not on the bloodrager spell list: the Urban Bloodrager archetype from Pathfinder Player Companion: Heroes of the Street has an Adopted Magic ability that gives the archetype more spells to chose from.
There are some classes, like bloodrager, that are obvious how to build and are hard to mess up.
I'm a hitter, so str and power attack, rage is off con, so con, and done.
No matter your choices after that you can't mess up your bloodrager. Taking a bad bloodline, weapon, and bad other feats means you're still good at your job.
The Curved Blade is a good flavor option, though in my opinion, the Nodachi does all that you expect the Curved Blade to do, and then some. In truth, the only reason to take the Elven Curved Blade over any other weapon is for the Unchained Rogue Finesse Training feature, where you get 1.5x Dexterity to your damage rolls. It's otherwise quite sub-par.
The racial trait for the proficiency would've been better for the +2 to all Will Saves option. If this is for the fun of the player, I'm sure you'd agree it probably isn't fun to be hit with Hold Person or similar effects and be useless (or even killed outright) in a given combat, which the +2 would go a long way of helping, especially since Bloodragers do not get the Good Will Save progression. Of course, if the GM is nice, he would either nerf those effects, or simply not cast them. But you never know...
Yeah, well, I never did suggest the alternate racial trait, and I don't think her father will look at them. He was shushing me so loudly, it was all I could do to mention the weapon at all. And I really mentioned that as bait for the player to pick a half-elf rather than elf; the flavor was the deciding factor here, not optimization. Simply put, I made the call on the fly that a feat burn would be better than the -2 to CON for being an elf, and never looked at non-elven options.
The good news is that if she goes half-elf, she'll still have Adaptability (the free Skill Focus). The alternative racial trait that you recommend looks tasty. I'll bring it up to the GM at our next game, and see if he will allow it. Unless... Are there feat trees that he might like for her that depend on Skill Focus?
Dual Minded: The mixed ancestry of some half-elves makes them resistant to mental attacks. Half-elves with this racial trait gain a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
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I'm an old-school father myself, and my 30-year-old daughter accused me last week of addiction to multiclassing. I pointed out that I haven't multiclassed my 12th-level bloodrager character, but eventually had to concede the argument because hybrid classes are multiclassing vertically instead of horizontally.
Which is sort of why multi-classing was awesome in old-school D&D - it worked more like hybrid classes do now. Instead of being a level 5 fighter/wizard, by the time everyone else was 10ish, you'd be level 8ish in both fighter & wizard due to how the EXP/leveling worked differently before 3.x.
In general, I think Pathfinder has worked really, really hard to retire prestige classes in favor of unique base classes that do the job the character's whole career. Or work fine with just a level or two of dips to gain specific advantages, rather than going full multi-class. Mathmuse, if you've found true multi-classing (5th & 5th instead of 10th) to be advantageous, I'm curious as to the classes and tactics.
And spell selection isn't much of a problem. My party-mate hasn't really figured out how to use spells beyond Invisibility & Fly. Working with a smaller list as she builds the character -- and a vastly smaller list than that in play -- will be a huge benefit. I was frankly shocked that a novice ended up with a fighter/wizard rather than a fighter/sorcerer... Old-school.
ADD: I did have one question, and if it got answered I'm sorry, I missed it. I just thought that bloodrager is more like 7th barbarian & 3rd sorcerer, packaged as a 10th level character (with corresponding advantages). And then I remembered:
Does a 10th bloodrager have a 10th CL or 7th? (Since the first three levels grant no spells at all.)
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Does a 10th bloodrager have a 10th CL or 7th? (Since the first three levels grant no spells at all.)
At 7th. It's in the class's spellcasting description. Their caster level is class level minus 3 (the same as paladin & ranger). You might suggest the trait which gives +2 to caster level (max of character level) so that their caster level goes up to 9th.
At 7th. It's in the class's spellcasting description. Their caster level is class level minus 3 (the same as paladin & ranger). You might suggest the trait which gives +2 to caster level (max of character level) so that their caster level goes up to 9th.
Does a 10th bloodrager have a 10th CL or 7th? (Since the first three levels grant no spells at all.)
Ah. Thanks. And great idea!
In general, I think Pathfinder has worked really, really hard to retire prestige classes in favor of unique base classes that do the job the character's whole career.
There is a Player Companion coming out in December that apparently will introduce a bunch of prestige classes and also provide feats to make these prestige classes and earlier ones more viable. Then there is a hardback book coming out in May with at least 18 more prestige classes.
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At 7th. It's in the class's spellcasting description. Their caster level is class level minus 3 (the same as paladin & ranger). You might suggest the trait which gives +2 to caster level (max of character level) so that their caster level goes up to 9th.
Does a 10th bloodrager have a 10th CL or 7th? (Since the first three levels grant no spells at all.)
No Bloodrager is not. Bloodrager has FULL caster level.
Beginning at 4th level, a bloodrager gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells drawn from the bloodrager spell list. To learn or cast a spell, a bloodrager must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. He can cast spells he knows without preparing them ahead of time. The saving throw DC against a bloodrager's spell is 10 + the spell level + the bloodrager's Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a bloodrager can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Bloodrager. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. The bloodrager does not need to prepare these spells in advance; he can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he hasn't yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.
The bloodrager's selection of spells is limited. At 4th level, a bloodrager knows two 1st-level spells of his choice. A bloodrager gains more spells as he increases in level, as indicated on Table: Bloodrager Spells Known. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bloodrager knows is not affected by his Charisma score, but it is affected by any bonus spells he gains from his bloodline. At 8th level and every 3 levels thereafter, a bloodrager can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. This swap follows all the same rules as for a sorcerer.
No -3 in the description.
Ranger however:
Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list. A ranger must choose and prepare his spells in advance.
To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger's spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger's Wisdom modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a ranger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Ranger. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When Table: Ranger indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level.
A ranger must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain his daily allotment of spells. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.
Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3.
The Paladin:
Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the paladin spell list. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance.
To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Paladin. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When Table: Paladin indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Charisma score for that spell level.
A paladin must spend 1 hour each day in quiet prayer and meditation to regain her daily allotment of spells. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.
Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.
Unlike the other 4th level casters the Bloodrager is FULL CL.
At 7th. It's in the class's spellcasting description. Their caster level is class level minus 3 (the same as paladin & ranger). You might suggest the trait which gives +2 to caster level (max of character level) so that their caster level goes up to 9th.
Does a 10th bloodrager have a 10th CL or 7th? (Since the first three levels grant no spells at all.)
Incorrect.
It is caster level 10. There is no -3 caster level on Bloodrager in the text.
Do a search of the rules forum, you find things like Owen and Mark confirming it is class level.
No Bloodrager is not. Bloodrager has FULL caster level.
Bloodrager spellcasting:Beginning at 4th level, a bloodrager gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells drawn from the bloodrager spell list. To learn or cast a spell, a bloodrager must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. He can cast spells he knows without preparing them ahead of time. The saving throw DC against a bloodrager's spell is 10 + the spell level + the bloodrager's Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a bloodrager can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Bloodrager. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. The bloodrager does not need to prepare these spells in advance; he can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he hasn't yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.
The bloodrager's selection of spells is limited. At 4th level, a bloodrager knows two 1st-level spells of his choice. A bloodrager gains more spells as he increases in level, as indicated on Table: Bloodrager Spells Known. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bloodrager knows is not affected by his Charisma score, but it is affected by any bonus spells he gains from his bloodline. At 8th level and every 3 levels thereafter, a bloodrager can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. This swap follows all the same rules as for a sorcerer.
No -3 in the description.
Ah. Thank you for the fix. That's why I hadn't seen it, but also hadn't seen a "full caster" line, and was confused.
Don't feel bad, it comes up a lot for the class. People want to compare it to the Ranger and Paladin and assume the -3 caster level.