Buckler Bash, and Precise Strike.

[AFKhaos]

So I was looking over the Falcata Swashbuckler, and was thinking about the possibility of a TWF Swashbuckler, but I'm not sure how buckler bash interacts with precise strike.

Buckler Bash:

At 2nd level, a falcata swashbuckler can perform a shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical multiplier as for a light shield). He can treat a buckler as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler's finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon.

Precise Strike:

Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat).

So is a buckler bash considered an attack "with a weapon in her other hand..." or not since the buckler doesn't occupy her off-hand?

[Bloodrealm]

You would count as wielding the buckler and therefore it would occupy the hand.

[CBDunkerson]

You can definitely add precise strike damage to either the falcata or buckler attack if you do not attack with the other weapon on the same turn.

You definitely CANNOT add precise strike damage to the buckler bash if you attack with the falcata on the same turn.

Whether you can add precise strike damage to the falcata attack on the same turn that you make a buckler bash will likely be subject to table variation. While a buckler is not technically IN the other hand, I believe the intent was to prevent TWF and thus would not allow this.

[Azten]

Really? Because the point of the archetype seems to be two-weapon fighting.

[CBDunkerson]

Really.

The archetype is indeed intended to use TWF. However, that doesn't change the fact that the base class Precise Strike deed is NOT.

[Azten]

Luckily a buckler is not in your off hand, so there's no problem.

[Java Man]

Does it strike anyone else as wonky that the archetype that gives you free proficiency in the mathematically best sword, is also the only one that will grant precise strike while TWF? What incentive, from an optimizing standpoint, to use any other archetype?

[Bloodrealm]

Azten wrote:

Luckily a buckler is not in your off hand, so there's no problem.

It doesn't have to be IN the off hand to occupy it. You're using it to actively do something.

[Azten]

"To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler."

That is very specific wording without anything like the wording in Slashing/Fencing Grace.

[Bloodrealm]

Interesting. I'm sure that conflicts with RAI, but should probably have an FAQ for RAW.

[Azten]

Yeah, we probably shouldn't make standing still and hitting stuff a lot with two things competition for hitting them with one big thing. :)

[Bloodrealm]

I'm just saying that the wording may be inaccurate to the intention.

[CBDunkerson]

I did a search and found multiple past instances of this argument over the buckler bash, armor spikes, unarmed strikes, spell combat, et cetera.

No consensus and no 'official' word.

[Burnscar]

Something that would definitely allow this would be to take the Unhindering Shield feat from Armor Master's Handbook.

It doesn't help you get precise strike to your buckler's attacks, but it would let you apply them to the falcata while two-weapon fighting, no question.

[gunny the toad]

to me it seems like precise strike would apply to all attacks (bucler and falcata), i don't know if it's intentional, but there isn't a reason (other than common sense) for which you should not.

[Rub-Eta]

CBDunkerson wrote:

I did a search and found multiple past instances of this argument over the buckler bash, armor spikes, unarmed strikes, spell combat, et cetera.

No consensus and no 'official' word.

The Unhindered Shield feat exists (from "Armor Master's Handbook", last feat on page 19), which I would consider to be Paizo's official stance.

Unhindered Shield wrote:

You are accustomed to fighting with your shield.

Prerequisites: Shield Focus, base attack bonus +6 or fighter level 4th, proficiency with bucklers.
Benefit: You still gain a buckler’s bonus to AC even if you use your shield hand for some other purpose. When you wield a buckler, your shield hand is considered free for the purposes of casting spells, wielding weapons, and using any other abilities that require you to have a free hand or interact with your shield, such as the swashbuckler’s precise strike deed or the Weapon Finesse feat.
Special: A monk with this feat is not considered to be using a shield for the purposes of his AC bonus, fast movement, or flurry of blows.

[johnlocke90]

Bloodrealm wrote:

Interesting. I'm sure that conflicts with RAI, but should probably have an FAQ for RAW.

The RAI is no two weapon fighting. You can't two weapon fight using buckler bash so its fine.

[CBDunkerson]

Rub-Eta wrote:

CBDunkerson wrote:

I did a search and found multiple past instances of this argument over the buckler bash, armor spikes, unarmed strikes, spell combat, et cetera.

No consensus and no 'official' word.

The Unhindered Shield feat exists (from "Armor Master's Handbook", last feat on page 19), which I would consider to be Paizo's official stance.

I would guess that the underlying argument for that would be something like;

1: Precise Strike and Weapon Finesse already allow use of a buckler for defense.
2: Unhindering Shield states that it allows "fighting with your shield" and that "your shield hand is considered free" when you "wield a buckler".
3: Thus, we should conclude that the intent here is that Unhindering Shield allows attacking with a buckler along with Precise Strike.
4: That a feat is needed to do this would then tell us that the interpretation of Precise Strike as being limited only by weapons "in" the other hand is incorrect... the buckler is not "in" the other hand but cannot be used to attack along with Precise Strike (w/o an additional feat) and thus other weapons not "in" the hand (e.g. armor spikes) also do not work with Precise Strike.

That is a plausible series of conclusions (which I agree with BTW). However, I think calling it "Paizo's official stance" is a stretch. We have no proof that they even considered these issues... let alone introduced an obscure feat in a Player Companion book to lay out the bread crumbs which might lead to their 'official stance'.

[AFKhaos]

Java Man wrote:

Does it strike anyone else as wonky that the archetype that gives you free proficiency in the mathematically best sword, is also the only one that will grant precise strike while TWF? What incentive, from an optimizing standpoint, to use any other archetype?

While I don't think anyone would argue that the falcata isn't amazing (certainly not I) from the perspective of a swashbuckler who relies on threatening crits to sustain panache, it's threat range is lower (if only slightly) which means less panache per day.