mekka2000 |
So, I'm working on a module...
Let's make it short :)
A woman has been turned into a zombie lord (template) through a ritual that also infected her with zombie rot (disease) so she can be the "patient zero" and start contaminating other people, launching a mini zombie apocalypse..
So, as she awakens as a zombie lord (and keeps her INT score), I'll play her as she has forgotten her past and is just grateful to the BBEG as she can let-it-go-let-it-go ( :p ), as she was a dhampir always hiding her origins before.
So, except beating her to pulp like ... (ooops almost spoiled the walking dead last episode :D ) how should you handle it if the characters want to talk to her and convince her to remember her past, the people that liked her and so and so... (she's CE now. she was a pickpocket and a NPC here with the PCs is an old priest that helped her to become a better person..).
Can you negociate with a CE undead (if so, how do you handle it, Diplomacy check ??) or is she lost forever until she's undeadified (with a sword inside her chest) ?
Sorry English is not my first language, I hope I'm clear...
Thanks
PossibleCabbage |
If something can think, and that thing is willing to listen to you and is able to understand you, then it can be reasoned with. Alignment or type doesn't have much to do with it except that they probably value different things than you do (i.e. you're unlikely to convince a Red Dragon by appealing to her sense of right and wrong, but could if you appeal to her ego or sense of self-interest).
"If only you could talk to the monsters" is a different kind of campaign, but it can be a really fun one.
Captain Kuro |
There are really no rules on this. Undead, being immune to alot of mind effecting and sometimes behaving in ways alien to the living, may be hard pressed to relate any longer to who they were. Or thry may need the slightest nudge to help them remember whk they were. As to how to handle it is up to you. Sounds fun, best of luck!
Fuzzy-Wuzzy |
The rules are pretty clear on this kind of thing. And what they clearly say is, "it's totally up to the GM."
That said, I'm not 100% sure you're looking for book rules rather than advice on what rules to create to run the scenario by. If the latter, I'm kind of thinking that something related to the unchained alignment system to represent her state of mind (and a copy to represent her alignment) might work, but I haven't used that system myself.
Statboy |
Intelligence and memory is completely up to the GM. Some things to keep in mind that Paizo has done in some AP's.
-Madness: Did whatever kill them drive them crazy? Did undeath drive them insane? They can have the memories of the past without the sanity to tell the PC's explicitly what they need to hear. How the madness manifests can also be used to tell a story.
-Guilt ridden: Are they so riddled with guilt over something that they repeat the act that caused the guilt over and over. In this case bringing closer would allow the undead to remember and communicate better.
-Partial or fading memories. Are their memories slowly going away? Are they blocking painful memories?
mekka2000 |
Thanks for all the replies, it's very interesting.
What I'm looking for is a mean to say that she's changing her mind, but not just "good, you, the player, convinced me as the GM, so, let's say the undead with his alien mind is as convinced as me".
For example, I thought about a "score" of "being human", at start it's zero. Good roleplay something to convince her could give you one point, showing her something that belonged to her, 2 points, and so on... when you have enough points, she changes her mind.
So it's not just a roll and it's not me saying "ok good" arbitrarly.
QuidEst > Sorry, PCs are level 1 and I aim to a low-magic (but not rare) setting. :)
She's a dhampir, pickpocket, living in the streets, that a cleric took and helped. When she disappeared, the PCs had to escort the cleric to find her. Once turned into undead, she ... how to say that.. she embraced the dark side of the force, the process driving her a little bit crazy and she forgot all her efforts to become a better person, embracing the undeath with the same force she tried to repress the "half undeath" in her during her life. Think a crazy harley quinn undead now that she give up her humanity (helped by the craziness in the process of making her undead).
Val'bryn2 |
Actually, in most cases, the undead in question, particularly the ones who have near the same int as before if not higher, remember EVERYTHING, they just couldn't care less, their perceptions are probably skewed a bit towards the whole "you have wronged me, so die" end of the spectrum.
In general, you're not trying to make it remember, you're trying to make it care, which would be a diplomacy/other social check, with penalties due to it being very against its nature.
Quentin Coldwater |
I can't find any hard evidence for it, but I believe the default canon is that you lose your memories when you lose your soul (when you die). Intelligent undead might create memories after they've died, but generally start out as evil and memory-less. But it's up to the GM to spin that however they want, I've seen multiple cases of intelligent undead who could tell about their previous life in Paizo products.
Val'bryn2 |
Obviously it's not all Pathfinder (sorry, a little behind on reading the Tales :) ), but in previous D&D fantasy worlds, it's been clear that the undead remember. Strahd von Zarovich remembered what happened to him before he became a vampire, had an entire book written about it. Don't ask Lord Soth if he remembers what his life was like, he remembers VERY well, and is still a little touchy on it. Same for Fistandantilus, same for Szass Tam, if anyone bothered to ask Acererak (and lived), he probably remembers.
mekka2000 |
As it is in a setting I'm building I can make it the way I want thankfully :)
And so, here, an undead with no INT is an empty shell animated by negative energy with "muscle memory" of his life (think dawn of the dead zombie still going to the supermarket).
Undeads with an INT score are still "inhabited" by the confused soul who lose most memory not compatible with it sudden hate of all living things and all its negative feelings are exacerbated (so, if you where a young emo thinking "I hate people, people = shit, nobody cares about me" now you are doomed to an infinite hate of the living, convinced that everyone deserve to die and that the entire humanity was created to destroy you when you were alive and you have a second chance as undead to take revenge, and have absolutely no memory of good times you lived).
Something like that. :)
So the dhampir that tried hard to be part of the crowd, despite discrimination, the fear and disgust that she did inspire among ignorant people, now, as undead, feels a little bit like Elsa from Frozen in her ice castle. It was a mistake to try to blend in and people didn't deserve her efforts. And all memories of good moments and good people (like the cleric) that took care of her are erased. She now feels she is really herself and she should have been this way when she was alive to.
Val'bryn2 |
That's certainly one way to look at it, or you can consider it like Frankenstein's Monster, on a grander scale. She tried to be good, tried to have people like her, only to be treated like a monster, and so, finally having the good memories twisted and the restraint removed, her response is "So be it. I am a monster? Then by the gods, I shall be the monster."
andygal |
My impression is that most kinds of intelligent undead don't recall their lives or at least recall only fragments. Vampires and maybe others are exceptions. Obviously this depends on your GM and campaign world but that seems to be the default assumption.
As for restoring their memories, if you have magic powerful enough to edit an undead mind you may as well just kill them and bring them back to life properly.