Wraiths & Anti magic shell


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

My party is looking at an upcoming battle with a number of wraiths and I was thinking that maybe an anti-magic shell might help. It seems a bit unclear how this would play out. Anti-magic shell clearly states that supernatural abilities are disabled within the shell, so the con drain shouldn't work. The question is does the negative levels given by it's touch attack also not work. Energy drain is a supernatural ability but the wraith stat block doesn't list that as one of it's abilities. It's just part of it's "normal" attack. My guess is that it would still do the negative levels but figured I'd ask.


I agree that the negative energy is not a Su that would be suppressed. The Wraiths could hurt you, you couldn't hurt them.

Sovereign Court

1) A wraith doesn't do negative levels with its touch attack, it just does negative energy damage. Energy Drain is a Su ability possessed by other undead, not wraiths. AMF would stop Energy Drain.

2) A wraith's negative energy damage isn't described in enough detail to get a Su tag, but if you had to ask, "is the way the insubstantial spirit hurts the meaty adventurers magical", would you answer Yes? If you had to decide if it was an Ex or Sp or Su ability, which one would you pick? I'd personally go with Su. After all, if nonmagical things can't touch an incorporeal creature, it seems properly symmetrical that the incorporeal creature needs magic to touch corporeal creatures.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Wow. I was clearly making them way more powerful. I read that as doing 1d6 neg levels + the con damage. Not just 1d6 damage. Clears up why I was thinking that it doing that kind of level drain and still only be cr 5 seemed odd.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
I agree that the negative energy is not a Su that would be suppressed. The Wraiths could hurt you, you couldn't hurt them.

This is my gut reaction, as well. From a RAW perspective, absent something to indicate the attack is (Su), I don't think one can conclude that it is.

Of course, the DM can rule as he/she sees fit, and there could be some logic to it being supernatural. But then I think you could end up asking yourself whether the negative energy plane's properties are inherently supernatural -- and if so, whether AMF acts as a complete defence against the properties of that plane. I guess I just worry it is a slippery slope to starts lumping things in as (Su) -- AMF is powerful and tricky enough as it is, IMO.

Even if I'm wrong on how it affects the wraith attacks, AMF still seems like a slightly bizarre counter to a wraith. Because you need to use magic to harm them yourself, the spell just seems to create a temporary stalemate at best.

Though it's not what you asked for, I thought it worth noting that a better counter would likely be Anti-Incorporeal Shell (off the Cleric, Shaman and Witch list at 4th level). Shorter duration, but it would keep the wraiths out, while still allowing for magical attacks coming "out" of the sphere.


Magic Section, Antimagic wrote:
Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal creatures, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.

Wraiths can't hurt you in antimagic areas, cause they doesn't exist there.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Samasboy1 wrote:
Magic Section, Antimagic wrote:
Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal creatures, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.
Wraiths can't hurt you in antimagic areas, cause they doesn't exist there.

Oddly the text for Antimagic field is missing that text which says incorporeal creatures wink out. So which is correct? Is the spell just a mistaken omission or was it removed?

Liberty's Edge

Samasboy1 wrote:
Magic Section, Antimagic wrote:
Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal creatures, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.
Wraiths can't hurt you in antimagic areas, cause they doesn't exist there.

What is your source? I recall that row, but I can't find it in Pathfinder. I think ti was in 3.5.


d20pfsrd

Though, looking at it now, their source is listed as the 3.5 SRD, so this looks like it is probably out of date.


Use the the prd. The d20pfsrd is inaccurate sometimes.


You could use Tiny Hut, it's a Force affect (incorporeals can't pass through) that you can make range attacks through.

Sovereign Court

I'm not sure Tiny Hut would keep out wraiths. Force effects are as solid to incorporeals as they are to corporeals, but Tiny Hut isn't solid, just opaque.


Tiny Hut wrote:
You create an unmoving, opaque sphere of force. The hut also provides protection against the elements, such as rain, dust, and sandstorms.
Incorporeal (Ex) wrote:
An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

It's solid enough to stop the elements. Opaque is a visual quality, not a physical one.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I like it. Looks to me like it would work. But like so many spells in Pathfinder, it's hard to tease out fluff text vs mechanism. It states "Missiles, weapons, and most spell effects can pass through the hut without affecting it." What are the rules for what spell effects can't pass through? Can fireball work? It's sends a small bead out - does it hit the wall and go boom? Does it pass through? What about the spell dragon's breath?

Sovereign Court

I'd say it does nothing against most spells, except those that closely resemble the weather phenomena the Tiny Hut protects against.

And of course, since it's opaque, it also prevents a lot of spells from being targeted at the occupants.


I would love to say this spell works as well...

Mage Armor wrote:
Since Mage Armor is made of force, incorporeal creatures can't bypass it

But others on the boards disagrees with me in past threads.

But how they can touch you through it was never explained to me...


They don't touch you through it, they touch you around it.

The +4 Armor bonus that Mage Armor provides works against incorporeal touch attacks, even though those typically ignore armor bonuses.

Even if the Mage Armor was otherwise providing no benefit (due to the character already wearing armor that provides a +4 or greater armor bonus), the Mage Armor would still grant that +4 against incorporeal attacks.


Mage Armor wrote:
An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a Mage Armor spell.

It doesn't just cover your chest like a brest plate, it's 100% coverage that moves with you.

It's not solid ether, it impedes movement through it at +4 AC.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:

I'd say it does nothing against most spells, except those that closely resemble the weather phenomena the Tiny Hut protects against.

And of course, since it's opaque, it also prevents a lot of spells from being targeted at the occupants.

I was thinking more in the other direction. I was reading it that outgoing missiles, weapons and spells are not effected. If you're in a tiny hut, you can see out so no issue with line of effect. But you are in a force sphere, so incoming effects would have to contend with the force sphere, right?

If I'm inside the hut, and cast fireball does it blow up inside the hut or where I directed? Oddly it doesn't give total hp, hardness, etc for the hut making me suspect that it actually doesn't afford any proection


The same way normal attacks still hit you. The mechanics are that if provides protection vs touch attacks.

Sovereign Court

Tiny Hut doesn't keep out missiles, it says so. It only keeps out the weather.

Because it does so much less than an ordinary force barrier, I doubt it's meant to keep out incorporeal creatures. It's originally intended as a travel convenience, not a lower level substitute for anti-incorporeal shell.

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