Ending Bloat


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Headfirst wrote:

Here's a quick question for all the Pathfinder fans out there:

How long do you think Pathfinder (and Paizo) would stay in business if they stopped publishing "crunchy" rules material (races, classes, feats, spells, etc) and instead focused on "soft" material like expanded settings, modules, and adventure paths?

Maybe they wouldn't last very long. But then again a lot of the same people who complain about bloat are the same people who want their crunchy options. People will complain about EVERY and ANYTHING and do so loudly and obnoxiously and STILL turn around and purchase the crunchy product. And the bottom line is if I'm looking at people complaining about rules bloat is this:

Are these people still BUYING the product in sufficient numbers to warrant the continual production of more product like this?

If the answer is YES, then keep producing.
If the answer is NO, then do something else.

I find that voting with your wallet gets the point across a lot more directly. Or maybe that's just me...


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Headfirst wrote:

Before this picks up any more steam, let's just assume that everyone here understands that businesses need to make money to stay open, okay?

The original question was whether or not non-crunchy material would be enough to keep Pathfinder afloat, not how long the game would last if the company shut off the lights, locked the doors, and never touched the product again.

You're missing a key point:

Crunch expands not because it is made, but because it is purchased.

"We" want crunch. "We" want bloat. "We" have spoken with our wallets, and Paizo has listened. By advocating reducing bloat, you are advocating ceasing to make products "we" wish to purchase.

By "we", I of course mean "those who buy crunch", of which I am but one of many.

The math has already spoken. You are not unique in your wish, but you are out-voted. I'm sorry that you cannot get what you want, but since it would be at the cost of what I want, I'm not that sorry.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The average American sees 5 movies in the theater a year. Customers tend to be choosey about their options. All the business heuristics I know would lead to me betting that most their customers don't see bloat because they only purchase the few products that spark their interests.


I think it depends on what you mean by Lasting or last.

They started out without publishing additional Pathfinder rulebooks...they could survive without publishing additional Pathfinder rulebooks.

However, it is very likely they wouldn't be the same as they are now. There would be changes made in all likelihood.


Anguish wrote:
Headfirst wrote:

Before this picks up any more steam, let's just assume that everyone here understands that businesses need to make money to stay open, okay?

The original question was whether or not non-crunchy material would be enough to keep Pathfinder afloat, not how long the game would last if the company shut off the lights, locked the doors, and never touched the product again.

You're missing a key point:

Crunch expands not because it is made, but because it is purchased.

"We" want crunch. "We" want bloat. "We" have spoken with our wallets, and Paizo has listened. By advocating reducing bloat, you are advocating ceasing to make products "we" wish to purchase.

By "we", I of course mean "those who buy crunch", of which I am but one of many.

The math has already spoken. You are not unique in your wish, but you are out-voted. I'm sorry that you cannot get what you want, but since it would be at the cost of what I want, I'm not that sorry.

And to add to that, if "we" didnt want bloat we wouldn't have the vigilante, possibly the coolest 20 level class ever created

Dark Archive

Yes, there's a glut of options you can buy. And if you're playing in PFS Organized Play you may feel obligated to buy all of it. If you're frequently the GM you may feel the "need" to buy every AP, module, and scenario that is released. But it's important to remember that nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy anything. I have most of the main rule books, but that's because the Humble Bundle had been such a great deal. I bought Occult Adventures (and eventually occult origins) because I liked the occult classes during the playtest.

I probably will never buy Unchained. I looked through a copy of the book. And for the most part it didn't really appeal to me. I'm unlikely to buy Ultimate Intrigue because that book doesn't really scream "I need it" to me. But I may buy Horror Adventures at some point. I have bought a few of the player companions but mainly I bought them because I knew they have options I want to have on hand. Other player companions such as People of the Stars I'll probably ignore. And while I want to buy all the modules, scenarios, and AP books... that's not a very high priority to me.

This means the so called 'bloat' doesn't really affect me. And it shouldn't affect anyone else either. Why? Because again, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. Do you feel there's too many bestiaries? There's no need to buy more then the first one. And that's only if you are the GM. Do you feel the classes from Advanced Class Guide are too much and unbalanced? Then don't buy that book. Do you feel that the base player races in the CRB are enough? Don't buy the Advanced Race Guide. Don't want to flood your campaign with the plethora of spells, classes, and other options in Ultimate Magic? Then don't buy it.

It's that simple. There's too many options available if you insist on buying and using every book published regardless of if you actually wanted anything in that book.

And as the GM it's within your rights to tell a player "no" if they want to use a book that you don't want included in your campaign. I've done it before, and I'll do it again in the future. Why? Because I don't allow people to use books in my home campaigns unless I actually have the book AND I included the book in the allowed resources.

It's like when I run or play in a Rifts campaign. Yes, there's over 30 world books, hundreds of quarterly magazines, and so forth. Yes, I own most of those world books. And yes any of the other Palladium Books games are fully compatible with Rifts. But if I'm setting the game in North America, most of those books are not going to be used. If I'm running a Ninjas & Superspies game, I'm unlikely to accept a character mde with the Heroes Unlimited or Beyond the Supernatural books. And I may not be allowing Mystic China, even though I have all those books.

Again, it's only "bloat" if you force yourself to include it.


Its also worth pointing out that outside of flavor bits, its all available online for free somewhere.

Also, running rifts without DRASTICALLY narrowing the options and setting a general power level is asking for trouble. RIP my operator stepping into an ongoing campaign with an antimonster, android, and powerful leyline walker. Dead by splash damage aimed at the antimonster.

Dark Archive

True, lamest Rifts campaign I ever was in was because the GM felt the need to immediately use any new book anyone bought. This lead to situations such as when we got rifted mid battle just as my character had fired a laser rifle, and dropping us in Africa directly in front of the four horsemen. You know, as I'm pulling the trigger on my gun, so I ended up shooting Death. Or when someone bought Underseas we got rifted from Atlantis slave pens (don't ask) to the bottom of the ocean. GM was completely confused when us players looked at each other and sarcastically said "Thanks for killing our characters".

Sovereign Court

It's not bloat if the new keeps coming out balanced with the old. Which they've done a great job doing. Even following Unchained they have not stopped supporting the Core versions of these classes...


Except the summoner. RIP.

Dark Archive

Not the Summoner's fault they are a stand user.


Summoner got plenty of love before they switched to Unchained Summoner.

Personally, i don't care for Unchained.

Grand Lodge

Personally, I don't think the issue with bloat is that there's too much to buy; it's that there's too much to know, especially as a GM. Want to GM a PFS game at your local store? You'd better be familiar with just about everything or your game is going to suffer.

So once again, we know we don't have to buy everything. We know Paizo needs to sell books to stay in business. I think a lot of you are getting off on those really obvious tangents instead of staring the main problem in the face: bloat.

That's why I asked the original question and, from what I've seen in this thread so far, it sounds like a limited crunch, extended setting RPG could survive, but it couldn't support a company as big as Paizo. Is that a fair assessment of this thread?

Grand Lodge

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Headfirst wrote:
Want to GM a PFS game at your local store? You'd better be familiar with just about everything or your game is going to suffer.

Not even remotely true.


Snowlilly wrote:

At some point they will need to do a few compendiums consolidating existing material.

This will be shortly followed by Pathfinder 2.0, where existing rules are revised and reedited, but remain compatible.

Unchained did this more or less, and it has sense been mostly ignored.

The key is that the new rules need to be made the ongoing focus of material. You can't make a new set of rules then keep making content for the old system.


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Headfirst wrote:
I think a lot of you are getting off on those really obvious tangents instead of staring the main problem in the face: bloat

It's not refusing to stare the problem in the face. It's that some of us don't think there's a problem at all.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
Want to GM a PFS game at your local store? You'd better be familiar with just about everything or your game is going to suffer.
Not even remotely true.

... are you serious?


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Headfirst wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
Want to GM a PFS game at your local store? You'd better be familiar with just about everything or your game is going to suffer.
Not even remotely true.
... are you serious?

Why wouldn't he be? It's pretty easy to not be intimately aware of how every mechanic works and just ask "Hey what feat lets you do that?" if something comes up. Especially for something as regulated as PFS, because you don't even need to worry about tailoring the campaign or anything.

Grand Lodge

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Headfirst wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
Want to GM a PFS game at your local store? You'd better be familiar with just about everything or your game is going to suffer.
Not even remotely true.
... are you serious?

350+ tables serious. You need to know the core rules and the rules the scenario uses. Trust your players to know their characters and everything will be fine.


swoosh wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
I think a lot of you are getting off on those really obvious tangents instead of staring the main problem in the face: bloat
It's not refusing to stare the problem in the face. It's that some of us don't think there's a problem at all.

To expand: we are looking at the burned piece of toast, we just aren't seeing elvis's face in it no matter how hard we squint.

Dark Archive

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
Want to GM a PFS game at your local store? You'd better be familiar with just about everything or your game is going to suffer.
Not even remotely true.

Yup, it's on the player to bring any rules from an Additional Resource they are using. Either by bringing the book, or a watermarked printout from their PDF. The leadership knows it's fairly impossible to memorize EVERY rule, especially if you don't have or just got a book. Personally, I've had Occult Adventures since it came out (had it pre-ordered). But I'd have to look up some of the systems the book introduced such as psychic duels.

Grand Lodge

swoosh wrote:
It's pretty easy to not be intimately aware of how every mechanic works

That's not really what I said though, is it?

Dark Archive

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RDM42 wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
I think a lot of you are getting off on those really obvious tangents instead of staring the main problem in the face: bloat
It's not refusing to stare the problem in the face. It's that some of us don't think there's a problem at all.
To expand: we are looking at the burned piece of toast, we just aren't seeing elvis's face in it no matter how hard we squint.

Gee thanks RDM42. Had to turn away quickly to prevent my spit take from getting water in my laptop's keyboard. I read that reply just as I took a drink of water.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
Want to GM a PFS game at your local store? You'd better be familiar with just about everything or your game is going to suffer.
Not even remotely true.
... are you serious?
350+ tables serious. You need to know the core rules and the rules the scenario uses. Trust your players to know their characters and everything will be fine.

So your argument against my statement that inexperienced GMs are going to have a tough time with Pathfinder (because of all the bloat) is not true because you have 350+ tables of experience and you don't have trouble?

All right, man. :)


Whatever, pretty much everyone only uses the APG, ARG, and Core Rulebook anyway. :-)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Headfirst wrote:
So your argument against my statement that inexperienced GMs are going to have a tough time with Pathfinder (because of all the bloat) is not true because you have 350+ tables of experience and you don't have trouble?

Nope, as I clearly said, inexperienced GMs don't need to know every rule. They just need to know the core rules, and the scenario rules.

Dark Archive

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Headfirst wrote:
swoosh wrote:
It's pretty easy to not be intimately aware of how every mechanic works
That's not really what I said though, is it?

Basically? It is. You implied that for GMing a PFS table you need to know every rule from every rule book, as well as what every feat does and how every class works. Quite simply, no you don't. If I were to sit own at your PFS table and want to play Kahel, I'm not expecting that you'll know how kineticists work yet. It'd be nice if you did, but I'm not counting on it. What I am counting on however is that I have the following with me:

1. a cheep tablet that has my Occult Adventures PDF on it
2. my character sheet, chronicle stack, and ITS
3. a physical printout of the entire Kineticist section from Occult Adventures, as well as the printout for the Overwhelming Soul archtype

When I first sit down at the table, I'm going to show you my PDF of the book so you can verify I do in fact own the book thus can play a kineticist. In fact, I'll have that pdf opened already and the tablet in sleep mode to facilitate this. Then when I'm pulling out my dice, mini, character sheet, and chronicle stack (as well as maybe my laptop to run Hero Lab to manage my character during the game), I'm also going to pull out the pages from those printouts I directly need. Namely the pages which cover the class it's self, my blasts, and my wild talents (both infusions and utility). I'll also pull out the page from Advanced Race Guide which details kitsune and my alternate racial trait. If you ask, I'll show you either that watermarked print out or the book on my tablet.

Then during the game if you have a question regarding something I'm doing, I can just hand you the print out that covers those rules. It also lets me reference the rules myself if I need to.


Headfirst wrote:

Personally, I don't think the issue with bloat is that there's too much to buy; it's that there's too much to know, especially as a GM. Want to GM a PFS game at your local store? You'd better be familiar with just about everything or your game is going to suffer.

So once again, we know we don't have to buy everything. We know Paizo needs to sell books to stay in business. I think a lot of you are getting off on those really obvious tangents instead of staring the main problem in the face: bloat.

That's why I asked the original question and, from what I've seen in this thread so far, it sounds like a limited crunch, extended setting RPG could survive, but it couldn't support a company as big as Paizo. Is that a fair assessment of this thread?

That's certainly my view, however if you take that as being true, I think you're implicitly accepting that bloat isn't a problem.

The reason I think the company would need to shrink is because revenues would plummet. The reason I think that is true is because I think the PF fanbase as a general rule like having lots and lots of options. Sure some of us would like them to slow down (or stop completely) with the mechanical options and just put out flavor and adventures - but I think we're in the minority.

Hence, although my preference is for lots of flavor materials and I believe Paizo would survive doing that, I also think it would be a poor strategy.

As I alluded to earlier, I think the 'problem' with bloat arises within the individual customer, not with the system. In my experience, there are a significant number of people who love pathfinder and its crunchy options but who then run out of steam over time - they begin enthusiastically waxing lyrical about how they can build anything they want, then go through a stage of developing their system mastery and coming to find loopholes/inconsistencies/things-they-would-have-done-differently and then move into claiming that the new stuff is terrible/full of trap options/whatever and that "Pathfinder has become bloated". Meanwhile there is a new batch of people getting involved and some of the longstanding fans who just have appetite for more and more.

I think viewing Bloat as an issue of the system is an error in framing of the problem. We each have our own preferences and the only objective measure is sales - given the consensus you pointed out was "if Paizo cut-out the bloat the company would need to significantly shrink" then I think we're definitely not close to 'too much bloat' by the only objective measure we have.

(I mean I could well be wrong - maybe the hordes of people leaving through lack-of-crunch will be more than compensated for by the people currently staying away. That's a possibility - it's not my gut feel though).


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
So your argument against my statement that inexperienced GMs are going to have a tough time with Pathfinder (because of all the bloat) is not true because you have 350+ tables of experience and you don't have trouble?

Nope, as I clearly said, inexperienced GMs don't need to know every rule. They just need to know the core rules, and the scenario rules.

I agree with you, but they probably also need to know that it's okay to not know everything.

In my opinion, that's not a trivial understanding to come to.

Dark Archive

Even though the Guild Guide outlines exactly what you're expected to know, then firmly tells you "it's on the player's head to bring any additional rules they are using"?


Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Even though the Guild Guide outlines exactly what you're expected to know, then firmly tells you "it's on the player's head to bring any additional rules they are using"?

Yeah. I know plenty of DMs who think that unless they understand something well, they don't want it in their game. Don't you?

Being comfortable with a ruleset takes time. Writing something in a book isn't going to remove everyone's insecurities, in my view.

I'm responding to TOZ's comment about an inexperienced DM. I don't think someone new to such things is going to feel greatly relieved just because a player shows them a whole bunch of rules the DM hasn't seen before. If they just trust the player and go for it, I suspect it will all go fine (and even if it doesn't, one bad session is hardly a life-changing disaster). Nonetheless, I think they have to come to understand that. It might be easy to see after running 350 tables, but I can imagine plenty of new PFS DMs who feel it's their duty to shoulder more of the rules-knowledge burden than it actually is.

Dark Archive

For a home game, yeah I tend to restrict players to books I actually have access to. I don't sweat not knowing a given mechanic backwards and forwards unless it regularly comes up. Didn't study the crafting rules for example till I was in a group with someone who always makes a crafter. If someone's playing a magus, I'm probably going to keep a list of what they can spend their arcane pool on and and what the costs are though. Similarly, until I need it I'm not going to look too closely at the rule for firearms. It's not come up yet for me.

For a PFS table however, I'll verify what books they're using and that they either brought the books needed or have printouts for what they're using. I only check their resources the first time I GM for them though. After that, I know they have that book. I will still expect them to have the rules for their character on hand though.

Dark Archive

Steve Geddes wrote:
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Even though the Guild Guide outlines exactly what you're expected to know, then firmly tells you "it's on the player's head to bring any additional rules they are using"?

Yeah. I know plenty of DMs who think that unless they understand something well, they don't want it in their game. Don't you?

Being comfortable with a ruleset takes time. Writing something in a book isn't going to remove everyone's insecurities, in my view.

I'm responding to TOZ's comment about an inexperienced DM. I don't think someone new to such things is going to feel greatly relieved just because a player shows them a whole bunch of rules the DM hasn't seen before. If they just trust the player and go for it, I suspect it will all go fine (and even if it doesn't, one bad session is hardly a life-changing disaster). Nonetheless, I think they have to come to understand that. It might be easy to see after running 350 tables, but I can imagine plenty of new PFS DMs who feel it's their duty to shoulder more of the rules-knowledge burden than it actually is.

Other then resource verification, I have the printouts on hand for personal use and if the GM has a question on one of my abilities. It's easier to hand over a single piece of paper then it is to dig through my PDF (the tablet loads pages slowly). If I'm playing a vanilla kineticist and the GM asks me "How the hell did you get a +11 damage bonus?" I want the rules on hand so that I can show him as I explain things.

Grand Lodge

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Steve Geddes wrote:
It might be easy to see after running 350 tables, but I can imagine plenty of new PFS DMs who feel it's their duty to shoulder more of the rules-knowledge burden than it actually is.

That's why I'm there as the Venture Captain to let them know not to sweat it too much.

Dark Archive

Me, I was kinda relieved when I read the guild guide. I'm still slowly working my way through the stuff I got via the humble bundle. I got tired of needing to know every single rule from 30 different books playing White Wolf's old world of darkness. And that was as a PLAYER. No freaking way I'm taking the time to memorize every single class, feat, spell, and rule from every single book Pathfinder publishes.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:
No freaking way I'm taking the time to memorize every single class, feat, spell, and rule from every single book Pathfinder publishes.

Then don't.

Just understand the basic rules inside and out and never forget that Specific trumps General.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
It might be easy to see after running 350 tables, but I can imagine plenty of new PFS DMs who feel it's their duty to shoulder more of the rules-knowledge burden than it actually is.
That's why I'm there as the Venture Captain to let them know not to sweat it too much.

*nod*

I think that kind of advice/guidance is likely to be invaluable to a neophyte PFS DM. I've been running games since 1979 and have been mostly DM throughout that time, so the concept of managing a table isn't foreign to me. The thing that most deters me from getting involved in PFS is insecurity over the rules.

I liked your comment - for me, it crystallised a useful insight.


Headfirst wrote:

Personally, I don't think the issue with bloat is that there's too much to buy; it's that there's too much to know, especially as a GM. Want to GM a PFS game at your local store? You'd better be familiar with just about everything or your game is going to suffer.

So once again, we know we don't have to buy everything. We know Paizo needs to sell books to stay in business. I think a lot of you are getting off on those really obvious tangents instead of staring the main problem in the face: bloat.

That's why I asked the original question and, from what I've seen in this thread so far, it sounds like a limited crunch, extended setting RPG could survive, but it couldn't support a company as big as Paizo. Is that a fair assessment of this thread?

When I was really into 3.5 I knew the options of almost every book. They can be learned if a group really wants to use every option. If not then you only need to learn what is going to be at the table. As an example I don't have the book for the psychic classes, but one of my players is using one. I read over their general rules, and then the class, all in one sitting. I don't know the other classes, but I don't need to, at least not yet.

As for PFS I don't need to know everything about the game not to suffer. I just need to do what I did for my player. Taking a few minutes to look a class over is not going to take forever, and most players know their class well enough anyway.

edit:Your assessment is correct with regard to Paizo, and it's current size, yes. For another company it may depend on how big they are and how they are setup with regard to the game itself.

Grand Lodge

Kahel Stormbender wrote:

When I first sit down at the table, I'm going to show you my PDF of the book so you can verify I do in fact own the book thus can play a kineticist. In fact, I'll have that pdf opened already and the tablet in sleep mode to facilitate this. Then when I'm pulling out my dice, mini, character sheet, and chronicle stack (as well as maybe my laptop to run Hero Lab to manage my character during the game), I'm also going to pull out the pages from those printouts I directly need. Namely the pages which cover the class it's self, my blasts, and my wild talents (both infusions and utility). I'll also pull out the page from Advanced Race Guide which details kitsune and my alternate racial trait. If you ask, I'll show you either that watermarked print out or the book on my tablet.

Then during the game if you have a question regarding something I'm doing, I can just hand you the print out that covers those rules. It also lets me reference the rules myself if I need to.

You are a more thoughtful and considerate player than a lot of players out there.

Don't get me wrong, our local scene is great, but there are too many players who think their phone screen should be good enough for looking up rules.


Are Pathfinder Society GMs allowed to dictate Core rules only?

Grand Lodge

Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Are Pathfinder Society GMs allowed to dictate Core rules only?

Only if they are running a Core Campaign game. Those tend to not be as popular in many places.


Makes sense.

Liberty's Edge

To me unless their is a gun at a person head. No one is forcing anyone to buy or use new material. It just seems that some in the hobby try to act like they they need to buy everything than blame Paizo. What Paizo simply doing what a proper rpg company should be doing. Which is publishing new material. Espcially if it sells imo.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

Less than a year.

Edit: This post was favored before my browser finished loading it after I clicked submit.

I'm gonna assume all 15 likes I say not 16 cause I just added mine.

I personally (almost) only buy the crunch books But I do have 3-4 fluff I think but they have crunch in them too. oh and 3 Adventure paths and emerald spire whatever that counts as.


Also I normally type more then that but TOZ apparently has my side covered.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:
For a home game, yeah I tend to restrict players to books I actually have access to.

I don't get this. Not one bit.

All you need to know (aside from universal game rules from Core) is: what's on my character sheet.

Let's imagine you don't own the APG and I ask to play a witch. You don't need to know anything about the alchemist, the inquisitor, piecemeal armor, or anything else in the APG. Only the witch. The burden is on me to provide you the list of hexes I want to learn, and to provide you access to them to read. Welcome to open game content. You get to refuse anything that seems broken, presumably with some discussion in case you're misinterpreting how something actually works.

While I'm playing a witch, you can forget about the books you DO own that I'm not playing. They're not important.

If it is too much to ask that you - as DM - learn four character sheets that draw on sources you don't own... I dunno what to say.


If I'm starting a new game with people that I dont know and have never played with I limit to core rulebook only at first. At this point it's not the classes that I'm monitoring, IT'S THE PLAYERS. because bottom line it's the player that decides to abuse or cheese rules not the character. If I have players who can play CRB classes without being overpowered and abusive then later on down the line I start opening up whatever options that they want as long as it's not deliberately game breaking or abusive.


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Please don't waste anybody's time 'testing' players whether or not their characters will be 'overpowered and abusive.' These are both incredibly subjective and a problem with Pathfinder, not the player.

Have an open dialogue with your prospective play3rs about your expectations for the game. IF you are highly anti-optimization and want to ensure your players will squirm and struggle for every desperate victory (and frequently die or be saved by D+Mq-Machina in the form of fudged dice or NPC saviors) then tell them so upfront.

No matter how many people might turn you away if you're honest up front, It's far faster for finding long term ppayers than by 'testing' them in table play.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Please don't waste anybody's time 'testing' players whether or not their characters will be 'overpowered and abusive.' These are both incredibly subjective and a problem with Pathfinder, not the player.

Have an open dialogue with your prospective play3rs about your expectations for the game. IF you are highly anti-optimization and want to ensure your players will squirm and struggle for every desperate victory (and frequently die or be saved by D+Mq-Machina in the form of fudged dice or NPC saviors) then tell them so upfront.

No matter how many people might turn you away if you're honest up front, It's far faster for finding long term ppayers than by 'testing' them in table play.

At no point did I ever state that I DIDN'T declare expectations of my players. I told my present group UPFRONT, I do things this way because I don't know you and I don't know how you play.

Your approach, as condescending as your tone is, has been tried before. Even with full statement of what expectations are at the table BEFORE play starts tends to either be ignored or forgotten once play starts. Sometimes it's an honest mistake of players just falling into common habits and / or play style. Other times it's players with the mindset of "I'm just going to do what I want and the GM/DM is just going to have to deal with it."

Either way my present group, who I've been running games for, for a little over five years (which I think counts as a long term group, I could be wrong...) seems to have been fine with it.


Pathfinder has very little bloat tbh.

There are not too many feats that are 'must haves' that have come out of books since the ACG. Intrigue has some cool stuff, but most of the bloat we've seen come from the player companion line and most of it comes in the form of archetypes that fill certain niches.

I will say the quality of the bloat has jumped a lot in the past few releases and a lot more of it seems relevant to players.

Class bloat really isn't there like in 3.5, hell there are people still asking for more base classes.

For every thread like this, there is another asking for more.

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