bitter lily |
A question came up in Saturday's game. Three goblins were in a row on the far edge of the AoE of a PC's Entangle spell, and failed their saves. In descriptive terms, their hobgoblin sergeant spent three turns behind them, cursing them out -- while he pulled one goblin at a time free of the ensnaring grass. What mechanics should I have used for this?
Giving the goblins a simple +2 for Aid Another on their own checks seemed way too little -- the creature aiding them was a size category larger, far stronger, and willing to be unkind in his methods!
I ended up giving the sergeant first a CMB check to safely grab hold of a minion as a standard action. This wasn't strictly speaking a grapple check -- it went up against the spell's DC, rather than the rescuee's (lower) CMD, and he was able to do it from an adjacent square outside the AoE. The question was simply whether he could grab hold of a non-resisting target in such a fashion that the grass that was entangling said target didn't ensnare his hands. Then, as a move action, he had to beat the spell's DC a second time, now with a Strength check. I called it a move action because that's what the spell asks for if you're trying to free yourself.
I could have perhaps also given him a free action to then drop his rescuee -- I did say he was willing to be unkind. Instead, each goblin scrambled out of the hobgoblin's hold on his own turn -- but with no check to end a grapple, as the sergeant wasn't resisting.
Well, in the end, the pitifully puny goblins failed miserably to win free on their own, round after round, so it was good for them that the burly hobgoblin succeeded in all 6 checks. Still, the sergeant's rescue efforts ate up three whole turns of his time. On the whole, I'm happy with how it came out, but I'm wondering if there's a better procedure. Since two PCs have the spell, I'm betting the question of rescue will come up again...
Furthermore, I may have blipped on something significant. Was I supposed to keep on giving my hapless goblins the "entangled" penalties even after they got free of the grass? Really?
bitter lily |
You could consider the Reposition combat maneuver. That, to me, has just the right feel of pulling somebody out of a dangerous spot forcefully.
Thanks for the quick answer! I hadn't been aware of the maneuvers in the APG; I had to go looking for this one.
It's interesting! Obviously, in this case it would be opposed by the spell DC, rather than the spell victim's CMD -- that's the actual foe. But the sergeant would have saved himself a move action per turn. (Not all that helpful in this case, since the gob victims were all within a 5-foot step of each other, but in a different situation, possibly very helpful.)
Though by the spell, yes, they're still entangled unless they make their check. Maybe a bunch of burrs or thorns are still stuck to them.
Bother! They're going to get a circumstance bonus, however, just for having been pulled out of the area... +2? +3?
Cevah |
For the Aid Another, I would add the Strength mod of the helper to the +2 aid bonus, but apply it to the goblin's check. It would be a single check, full round action. However, I don't have any rules support for this.
Furthermore, I may have blipped on something significant. Was I supposed to keep on giving my hapless goblins the "entangled" penalties even after they got free of the grass? Really?
After being pulled out of the spell's AoE, were they still entangled?
No. Therefore, no penalty for entanglement after they leave./cevah
bitter lily |
For the Aid Another, I would add the Strength mod of the helper to the +2 aid bonus, but apply it to the goblin's check. It would be a single check, full round action. However, I don't have any rules support for this.
Why full-round? Because of the extra bonus?
After being pulled out of the spell's AoE, were they still entangled?
No. Therefore, no penalty for entanglement after they leave.
Given how badly they were rolling, I like this answer better than Saethori's LOL! Can you two discuss this?
Cevah |
Cevah wrote:For the Aid Another, I would add the Strength mod of the helper to the +2 aid bonus, but apply it to the goblin's check. It would be a single check, full round action. However, I don't have any rules support for this.Why full-round? Because of the extra bonus?
No. The extra maneuvering needed to grab someone then pull. Picking something up is a move action, and this is harder. I could see calling it a standard, but nothing less.
Cevah wrote:Given how badly they were rolling, I like this answer better than Saethori's LOL! Can you two discuss this?After being pulled out of the spell's AoE, were they still entangled?
No. Therefore, no penalty for entanglement after they leave.
This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.
If the plants in the area are covered in thorns, those in the area take 1 point of damage each time they fail a save against the entangle or fail a check made to break free. Other effects, depending on the local plants, might be possible at GM discretion.
The burrs can cause damage while entangled. Otherwise, they have no effect.
You make a save to see if you become or remain entangled while in the area. You are not entangled if you leave the area by any means. Dimension Door does not "make your save", but it clearly makes you not entangled. So does Teleport, Freedom of Movement, and Dispel Magic.
/cevah
bitter lily |
I've been looking at the def for "entangled" in the glossary --
Entangled The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.
In general, the correct interpretation of the spell's description is clear.
(2) Creatures who make their Reflex save during casting & again as necessary (as long as they remain in the area) are not affected.
(3) Creatures who fail any Reflex save gain the entangled condition. They take a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. [Brutal for archers!] They must make concentration checks to cast spells. In addition, such creatures are anchored to the ground, and cannot move.
My fear is that the final item in the spell's effect reads as follows:
(4a) Creatures who failed a Reflex save may make Strength or Escape Artist checks as move actions in order to free themselves from the anchor. Those who succeed still have the entangled condition, but are no longer anchored, and thus can move at half-speed. These combined penalties will last as long as the spell does -- 1 minute/CL unless dismissed or dispelled.
But it's not clear. I suppose that it makes no sense to say that instead the proper interpretation reads:
(4b) Creatures who failed a Reflex save may make Strength or Escape Artist checks as move actions in order to free themselves from the entangled condition. If they find any other means of removing themselves from the spell's area of effect (such as Dimension Door), they are no longer anchored and may now move at half-speed. However, they will still have the entangled condition until they succeed at a Strength or Escape Artist check, or the spell ends, is dismissed, or is dispelled.
Cevah, you are apparently of the opinion that the proper interpretation should read:
(4c) Creatures who failed a Reflex save may make Strength or Escape Artist checks as move actions in order to free themselves from the entangled condition. Those who find some other means of removing themselves from the spell's area of effect (such as Dimension Door) also no longer have the entangled condition. Otherwise, the entangled condition lasts until the spell ends, is dismissed, or is dispelled.
I admit, (4c) is the one I went with at the time. I'd just like to be sure it's right.
Edit: text of (4c) changed for clarity.
Cevah |
Not quite. The spell repeatedly uses the words "in the area". Clearly, it is an area effect and not a targeted effect. If you leave the area, you are no longer entangled. Not even if the spell lasts for hours.
On another note, the tangleshot arrows (or bolts) can be devastating while their effect lasts. At 20gp each, you get 2d4 rounds of entangled target if you hit. Who cares if they are not anchored. They move at half speed and take heavy penalties while entangled. The Entangling Shot Cartridge is 40gp. The Tangle Bolt is a +1 seeking tangeshot bolt. The Tanglefoot Bag has higher DC to beak the anchoring, but at 50gp each don't get you much else.
/cevah