Kotello |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The party wants to get into another room but they have nobody who can pick locks or chop the door down.
Wizard casts Create Pit right in front of the door so the centre of the pit is bisected by the door above. They then climb down the pit, move to other side, and wait for the spell to expire, thus rising up inside the room.
Is this legal?
Could they do the same thing with a wall?
Volvagnos |
You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extra-dimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material.
As long as the door is big enough to cast the spell underneath it, it should still function. It could not be used to go under a wall in the same manner as the wall would be blocking the surface area.
Byakko |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Create Pit wrote:You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extra-dimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material.As long as the door is big enough to cast the spell underneath it, it should still function. It could not be used to go under a wall in the same manner as the wall would be blocking the surface area.
I think that's an excellent rules quote, but my conclusion is the opposite. If there's a door in the way, then there's not a surface of sufficient size. (at least, not extending under the door)
If you allow people to bypass doors with this, then you're also allowing them to bypass walls, btw. I know there's a crack under a door, but in the pathfinder grid world I believe a closed door is effectively the same as a wall when it comes to spell targeting.
Portcullises, on the other hand, I'd be fine with creating a pit under since you basically have line of sight to the entire surface.
Samish Lakefinder |
You need line of effect going under the door to get your pit placed, so if the doors are roughly fitted with a large gap at the bottom (2.4") it should work. The large gap gives you the 1 sq.ft. needed for "line of effect".
Portcullis with openings smaller than a square foot are the same as a solid barrier to magic. I think many portcullis will have openings smaller than magic can pass through in order to provide a barrier to small creatures.
Ridiculon |
At first I was on board with this, but after thinking about it for a minute you would have to have a door that is big enough to span the entire width of the pit. If the pit goes under a wall in any way it would collapse the wall, which i would take as grounds to disallow this use. I don't think a "pit trap" spell should be or is supposed to be used as an "instant castle collapser" spell.
The Sideromancer |
At first I was on board with this, but after thinking about it for a minute you would have to have a door that is big enough to span the entire width of the pit. If the pit goes under a wall in any way it would collapse the wall, which i would take as grounds to disallow this use. I don't think a "pit trap" spell should be or is supposed to be used as an "instant castle collapser" spell.
If it was a smaller, less heavy door, they would have another way around/through it.
deusvult |
With regards to the line of effect issue:
I'd probably rule that if a PC put a Create Pit aoe centered where the wall and floor intersect then I'd treat it just like any other AOE, like fireball. Nothing occurs on the other side of that wall... so you'll just get a half-sized aoe (in this case: pit) on this side of the wall.
Snowlilly |
With regards to the line of effect issue:
I'd probably rule that if a PC put a Create Pit aoe centered where the wall and floor intersect then I'd treat it just like any other AOE, like fireball. Nothing occurs on the other side of that wall... so you'll just get a half-sized aoe (in this case: pit) on this side of the wall.
Pit spells require sufficient area for the pit to form. It is included in the spell description.
deusvult |
deusvult wrote:Pit spells require sufficient area for the pit to form. It is included in the spell description.With regards to the line of effect issue:
I'd probably rule that if a PC put a Create Pit aoe centered where the wall and floor intersect then I'd treat it just like any other AOE, like fireball. Nothing occurs on the other side of that wall... so you'll just get a half-sized aoe (in this case: pit) on this side of the wall.
Noted, but then again "sufficient area" may or may not mean the entire 10x10 AoE.
/ruleslawyerhatoff
Anyway, I said, that was just how I expect I'd probably handle the attempt of a player trying to burrow under a wall/door via pit rather than just saying "you can't even center the spell against the door/wall".
Snowlilly |
Noted, but then again "sufficient area" may or may not mean the entire 10x10 AoE.
I would love to see anyone try to make that argument with a straight face.
You would have better luck arguing "sufficient size" included the sloping surface, thus requiring a horizontal surface of at lease 20'x20'
Ravingdork |
Actually, the pit's area is 20x20; don't forget the slippery slopes around the edges.
So it would seem that, based on the logic presented, several of you would argue against being able to cast this spell in a 5-, 10-, or even 15-foot wide hallway?
Doesn't seem like the intent to me.
EDIT: Gah! Ninja'd!
Gargs454 |
I would probably allow the pit to be formed if the doorway was of sufficient width (I consider the gap between door and floor to be enough to distinguish it from a wall). That said, no idea what the RAW result is. Sure, it trivializes a locked door, but also uses up a spell that could otherwise have trivialized a combat encounter. All in all not a horrible abuse of party resources imho. Of course, that may depend on the nature of your campaign though as some campaigns are much more susceptible to the 5 minute adventuring day (like Kingmaker for instance) but then, the presence of a locked door suggests a dungeon, which suggests multiple encounters.
bitter lily |
I'm still troubled by having inconsistent lines-of-effect. If you're saying that you'll let a fireball sneak under a door and blow up what's on the other side, well... good to know. If you're not, then I don't think a pit can form halfway under the door -- inventiveness and cost notwithstanding.
I have an easier time with the pit in a 10-foot corridor, with only a sloping side on front & back, and vertical walls... Err, there's no necessity for the physical walls to carry on down into the pit, is there? Hmmmm. You know, I could have sworn the designers wanted to be able to put these thingies in a 10-foot corridor! At least, if one must, fiddling with the definition of "sufficient size" to block the sloping side-walls in a corridor can't affect much except the implementation of the various Pit spells. Going directly under the door, OTOH, affects too much, IMHO.
~~~
Going back to the OP's conundrum, are we assuming that the party wizard is for whatever reason unable to lay their hands on a spare lightning bolt? I started looking at other spells, and that got me to thinking about just setting the door on fire! Assuming it's wood.
Flaming Sphere A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. (...) If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage. A flaming sphere rolls over barriers less than 4 feet tall. It ignites flammable substances it touches and illuminates the same area as a torch would.
Phooey! It sure would be nice to call the door a "creature" and do 3d6 damage to it for CL rounds! But even if it's just sitting next to the door, igniting flammable substances...
Scorching Ray You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
Nothing in the spell's statblock refers to anything other than "rays." The description refers to "enemies" in the fluff text, but then simply "targets." So it looks like it could be used to blast a door for lots of damage. Even though it won't set the door on fire, even one ray should do enough damage to break it.
PS: I didn't mention Burning Hands, because I don't like setting 1-inch-thick wood on fire with an instantaneous fire effect, be it a 1d4 Burning Hands or a 10d6 Fireball. But if the GM differs on this, Burning Hands might help, too.
Gargs454 |
Well even better than lightning bolt or create pit would be knock, but that's a different issue. I suppose at some point the question becomes how much does the GM want to punish the party for not having a locksmith. But yeah, to be fair, I think it's fair to rule either way as a GM and would have no problem if my GM told me no.
Samish Lakefinder |
The area of effect for Create Pit is 10'x10'. Create Pit distorts space, I do not have a problem with the idea that the wall next to the pit is somehow sloping into the pit more so then normal. The spell twists space. The structural integrity of the wall would be no more affected then the floor of a building.
You could use the spell to get through a wall as long as there was a 2.4" high 10' long gap (for line of effect) at floor level, and the floor was at the same level on both sides. This would not cause the wall to collapse as it does not change the existing gap at all.
nosig |
The area of effect for Create Pit is 10'x10'. Create Pit distorts space, I do not have a problem with the idea that the wall next to the pit is somehow sloping into the pit more so then normal. The spell twists space. The structural integrity of the wall would be no more affected then the floor of a building.
You could use the spell to get through a wall as long as there was a 2.4" high 10' long gap (for line of effect) at floor level, and the floor was at the same level on both sides. This would not cause the wall to collapse as it does not change the existing gap at all.
where are you getting the "2.4 inch high" requirement? the 10 foot long gap I can understand - but where is the 2.4 inch from?
nosig |
Some crazy observations that popped in mind when I read this thread so far...
Did anyone else notice that no one is even questioning the fact that the grid lines are fixed? and that the pit spell has to coincide with them? And that the door is fixed along one of those lines?
I mean, if we can create the pit - why not create it were the corner sticks under the door? just rotate the grid pattern 45 degrees or so...
And for those persons saying the door blocks LOE for the Pit (which it might - I'm not sure of it one way or the other) - would a cloth curtain also block it? A leather drape? a bead curtain? How about a waterfall? A windwall? If the wood was only an 1/8th of an inch thick? How thick and how dense does the "door" need to be to block the pit from forming?
Cheburn |
Did anyone else notice that no one is even questioning the fact that the grid lines are fixed? and that the pit spell has to coincide with them?
This follows the general ruling for how you aim an AoE magic spell. As far as 'rotating' the spell goes, I'll leave that between you and your GM, but it still could run afoul of the "you must create a pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size".
Also, you're going to have to count carefully, because if (for example) you rotate the pit 45 degrees on the grid, it should not diagonally cover two squares (since the game considers that 15', rather than the 10' in the spell description).
And for those persons saying the door blocks LOE for the Pit (which it might - I'm not sure of it one way or the other) ...
Line of Effect is stopped by a solid barrier, such as a door (or a Wall of Force). For each of the items you listed, see if you would describe it as a 'solid barrier,' with no holes bigger than 1 square foot. However, that only matters for the location of the grid intersection where you can place the pit, and I think people generally assumed the spell was being cast to where you had LoE.
where are you getting the "2.4 inch high" requirement? the 10 foot long gap I can understand - but where is the 2.4 inch from?
That gets him to 1 square foot of open area, which is the requirement for LoE. Though he and I would have a discussion about LoE/LoS if he tried to make this argument in a game I was running.
The rest of this discussion is because:
- Normally, even if you can target a square with an AoE, a wall/door will block it from going to the other side (though it may be destroyed in the process, depending on the spell)
- Create Pit has language in it that "You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size."
- There is some disagreement over whether or not a door counts for breaking up this 'horizontal surface.'
bitter lily |
nosig, he wants a 1-square-foot gap per five-foot square.
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. (...)
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
Personally, I would do terrible things to the carpenter who fitted wooden doors for my dungeon if he left a 2.4" gap at the bottom! That's huge! And now you're hoping for this gap all the way across a ten-foot-wide door? Better to hope that there's a 1-square-foot hole for passing meals in each square.
However, the old jail cells of tvdom have vertical iron bars set at (call it) every 8" in an iron frame. The frame at the top, bottom, and sides is (call it) 2.4" wide. Even if just a 30-inch door in a stone wall is so constructed, line of effect for a fireball clearly is maintained -- there's large enough openings in the door that the square doesn't have a "solid barrier" on that side.
If the entire cell wall along a corridor is so constructed, I'd say that a pit would also have line of effect -- despite the 1 square foot of frame at the bottom of each 5-foot section of wall. Why not? (You'd still need whatever the GM calls "sufficient space" on the floor of the cell and corridor -- 10 or 20 feet squared.) Your "get out of jail free" exploit would work!
Questions: Now, assume that our blacksmith has also set horizontal iron strips 8 inches apart. Does a 30-inch door so constructed now prevent line of effect? Really? There's no single 1-square-foot hole, true. But, but... It's still not solid! Does it make a difference if instead it's a whole wall?
Quintain |
Line of effect is, I believe, for aiming the spell. Line of effect isn't necessarily a factor when it comes to the spell's area of effect.
Line of effect applies in burst spells (no going around corners), but not for spread spells.
Create Pit is neither of these, so the fact that there are doors that could potentially overlap the spell could be largely immaterial -- it is physically possible to have a normally dug pit go underneath a otherwise structurally intact barrier (aka Sapping).
The RAI for this scenario is ambiguous.
Addendum: A door does not interrupt a flat surface, unless it is constructed to insert itself into the floor (like a sliding glass door or garage door that shuts down into a slot). A standard house door does not interrupt the flat surface, as it is joined to the wall on the side of the door frame.
bitter lily |
The area of effect for Create Pit is 10'x10'. Create Pit distorts space, I do not have a problem with the idea that the wall next to the pit is somehow sloping into the pit more so then normal. The spell twists space. The structural integrity of the wall would be no more affected then the floor of a building.
After reviewing the spell description, I agree with you on principle.
You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material. You can create the pit in the deck of a ship as easily as in a dungeon floor or the ground of a forest. Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space. In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it. Creatures subjected to an effect intended to push them into the pit (such as bull rush) do not get a saving throw to avoid falling in if they are affected by the pushing effect.
However much slope there is, it seems clear that what you actually create is a "10-foot-by-10-foot" hole, and need line of effect to that much horizontal surface. So it fits in a 10-foot corridor. At that point, no one can end their turn on the sides of the pit, only in front of it or behind it -- so for rules interpretation, don't worry about the sides!
Except I must go on. I must. I've fallen in, and I'm looking up. Does the pit have straight vertical sides aligned with the corridor walls? Or sloping sides that come up under those walls without undermining them? It's just fluff, I'll grant you. Eeee, maybe. I have some very creative players...
EtA: I didn't include the stat block for Create Pit, but it nowhere uses the words "burst" or (more likely) "emanation" or even "spread." It does not start from a point of origin in line of effect and extend under a door. The entire pit must fit in line of effect.
(Also fixed attribution for quote of spell description.)
Samish Lakefinder |
I imagine looking up from inside the pit that the areas near the walls would either be blurry due to light bending oddly through space, or that your mind would keep changing its interpretation of what it is seeing as it is not designed to interpret areas of twisted space.
If you draw a 4x4 square on paper with a 2x2 square in the middle you can represent t your pit and slopes areas pretty well. Now the effect of the pit is only the 2x2 square so when cast in a ten foot corridor you can bend your papper square into a U channel to fit( |_ _| ). Inside the pit I think you would be looking at the flat bottom of your paper, but it connects to the world through the U channel. As far as the walls go, while they look like they are falling away from the corridor, they are still safely intact behind your paper channel.
bitter lily |
I imagine looking up from inside the pit that the areas near the walls would either be blurry due to light bending oddly through space, or that your mind would keep changing its interpretation of what it is seeing as it is not designed to interpret areas of twisted space.
If you draw a 4x4 square on paper with a 2x2 square in the middle you can represent t your pit and slopes areas pretty well. Now the effect of the pit is only the 2x2 square so when cast in a ten foot corridor you can bend your papper square into a U channel to fit( |_ _| ). Inside the pit I think you would be looking at the flat bottom of your paper, but it connects to the world through the U channel. As far as the walls go, while they look like they are falling away from the corridor, they are still safely intact behind your paper channel.
Cool! Thank you so much!
bitter lily |
\/ Bump \/
However, the old jail cells of tvdom have vertical iron bars set at (call it) every 8" in an iron frame. The frame at the top, bottom, and sides is (call it) 2.4" wide. Even if just a 30-inch door in a stone wall is so constructed, line of effect for a fireball clearly is maintained -- there's large enough openings in the door that the square doesn't have a "solid barrier" on that side. (...)
Questions: Now, assume that our blacksmith has also set horizontal iron strips 8 inches apart. Does a 30-inch door so constructed now prevent line of effect? Really? There's no single 1-square-foot hole, true. But, but... It's still not solid! Does it make a difference if a whole wall is so constructed?
Or maybe I should just go join Ravingdork on his thread?
NobodysHome |
Resurrecting this thread for a closely-related question: You cast Create Pit into a 10'x10' room. There's someone standing against the wall outside of the room, so the only thing between them and the pit is a 6" wall. Are they affected as if they are on the "edges of the pit"?
In my mind, the pit creates an extradimensional space that's 20'x20' (the 10'x10' pit requiring line of effect, then the edges that extend outwards from that AoE), so an opening would appear under the wall and the person could indeed slip, slide under the wall, and fall into the pit.
Or if you cast Create Pit into a 10'x10' room do the edges 'not happen'?
vhok |
Resurrecting this thread for a closely-related question: You cast Create Pit into a 10'x10' room. There's someone standing against the wall outside of the room, so the only thing between them and the pit is a 6" wall. Are they affected as if they are on the "edges of the pit"?
In my mind, the pit creates an extradimensional space that's 20'x20' (the 10'x10' pit requiring line of effect, then the edges that extend outwards from that AoE), so an opening would appear under the wall and the person could indeed slip, slide under the wall, and fall into the pit.
Or if you cast Create Pit into a 10'x10' room do the edges 'not happen'?
i'm not sure how to answer this without getting banned from the forums for being rude but i will try.
no they do not slide through a wall into the pit. a slanted floor does magically pull people through a solid wall. no, also no.
GotAFarmYet? |
Resurrecting this thread for a closely-related question: You cast Create Pit into a 10'x10' room. There's someone standing against the wall outside of the room, so the only thing between them and the pit is a 6" wall. Are they affected as if they are on the "edges of the pit"?
In my mind, the pit creates an extradimensional space that's 20'x20' (the 10'x10' pit requiring line of effect, then the edges that extend outwards from that AoE), so an opening would appear under the wall and the person could indeed slip, slide under the wall, and fall into the pit.
Or if you cast Create Pit into a 10'x10' room do the edges 'not happen'?
I can see this used if the door was poorly constructed, or a cheap door. A high end door like a vault door it would not work on.
Considering walls have footings that the support the weight of the wall and can be as deep as the wall itself, I would not let it work on walls. Also if you allowed it to work on a wall then you could use it to collapse buildings, towers, etc.
I would base it on what you can see, and dimensions of the pit must be fully visible to cast it. so you could cast it in a 10 x 10 room that you are in and fall into a pit, but it would not allow you a way out of the room.
Meirril |
In my mind, the pit creates an extradimensional space that's 20'x20' (the 10'x10' pit requiring line of effect, then the edges that extend outwards from that AoE), so an opening would appear under the wall and the person could indeed slip, slide under the wall, and fall into the pit.Or if you cast Create Pit into a 10'x10' room do the edges 'not happen'?
That is an incorrect interpretation. The pit is 10'x10' and that 10x10 section of pit generates an effect that pulls things in like there is a slope.
A wall or any other obstruction would block the line of effect from the pit. Without line of effect you can't fall into the pit. That really should be elementary logic, and it is exceedingly consistent with the magic rules.
NobodysHome |
NobodysHome wrote:Resurrecting this thread for a closely-related question: You cast Create Pit into a 10'x10' room. There's someone standing against the wall outside of the room, so the only thing between them and the pit is a 6" wall. Are they affected as if they are on the "edges of the pit"?
In my mind, the pit creates an extradimensional space that's 20'x20' (the 10'x10' pit requiring line of effect, then the edges that extend outwards from that AoE), so an opening would appear under the wall and the person could indeed slip, slide under the wall, and fall into the pit.
Or if you cast Create Pit into a 10'x10' room do the edges 'not happen'?
i'm not sure how to answer this without getting banned from the forums for being rude but i will try.
no they do not slide through a wall into the pit. a slanted floor does magically pull people through a solid wall. no, also no.
"You're wrong. It doesn't work that way," works fine and isn't rude in the least.
Considering the strong consensus along those lines, I stand corrected.