What to do.....after insulting Grandmaster Torch? Season 00-14


GM Discussion

2/5

Okay, hello everyone.

I'm going to need a second opinion on this.
It's early in the mission, and the team has only just entered the bathhouse, where they are to get info from Grandmaster Torch about the statues.

After Torch did some business talk, the barbarian made a threatening remark with intimidate, and another of the team is being very rude, insulting his bodyguards and saying they can just 'get the information out of him', 'after beating his bodyguards to a pulp'.

Now, the mission does say that, when they don't want to pay him the expensive fee for the info, he can give it in exchange for a debt from the society.

Yet, i'm unsure of how i should have Torch respond to this. I mean, he's a powerful man, and speaking to him like that, is like calling Darth Vader a push over in his face.

The second mentioned PC is already asking the distance to the guards, and if there's a map.

What to do, have Torch respond in kind and engage combat for the insulting and satisfying their thirst for battle, (a third PC declared in thought he'd love to slice the Guy's throat) or have them get away with this without a hitch.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

There are stats for Torch and his bodyguards in

Scenario name, in case you are particular on spoilers.:

4-23, Rivalry's End. Use the high tier, for added effect.

But using those in a 1-5 is a VERY "serves you right," tactic.

Scarab Sages 5/5

well - you have several choices.

a) fight it out. (NOT a good idea, and a lot of work. But heck, they are picking a fight, and who knows, maybe the PFS will bail them out of jail. Mission Fail though). In the end, sign the chronicles (1XP, 0PP, and very little gold...). Tell them that they had a nice fight, but even if they won (not very likely), the local Cops showed up and they spent the next couple weeks in jail. "have a nice day" - hope the VC bails them out.

b) Have GMT laugh it off. After all, depending on Tier this is a match up much like 6 second graders fighting 2 Pro NFL linemen - without even getting GMT himself in it. He could easily think it's the funniest thing he's seen in weeks. Let them take their shot and have everything just ... miss. "I got a 27 to hit." "wow! that's close! wait, no sorry. Missed by a bunch." After all, there are no stats for these guys...

c) Tell the PLAYERS that they are going to blow the mission. If they continue, see a) above. Give them the chance to get back on the "tracks" ... Ask if their PCs are REALLY going to attack a prominent local businessman (and tax payer) in his bath - in town - in front of witnesses?

Scarab Sages 5/5

Jeff Hazuka wrote:

There are stats for Torch and his bodyguards in

** spoiler omitted **

But using those in a 1-5 is a VERY "serves you right," tactic.

actually this is a Tier 1-7, so the PCs MIGHT be 7th level. but yeah, "serves you right," about covers it.

In season zero, these guys were supposed to be "to big to fight"... in the spoilered scenario they are fightable...

4/5

The 'favor' pays out in 1.45 Delirium's Tangle doesn't it?
Not sure, but seems like 'owing him a favor' is where it was supposed to go.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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Torch is a confident man who knows a great deal and packs numerous powerful contingencies for any threat of violence. Especially in a Tier 1–5 adventure, the PCs are small fish in a very large ocean, and they might be forgiven at least once for taunting a shark.

Torch also believes that some lessons—including a harsh one he learned years ago—have to be learned the hard way. If the barbarian's getting uppity and moves from words to physical altercation, I wouldn't find it amiss for a half-orc bodyguard to crack the barbarian across the jaw and knock her out cold (nonlethal damage would heal pretty quickly and let the PCs play the intended adventure with little delay). Whether or not he needs that swift show of force, Torch could reiterate that he's a man of class and appreciates dealing with equally professional people. If the PCs see no need to display the expected decorum, he notes without acknowledging the irony of his holding a meeting while nude and dredged in a bubble bath, they can show themselves to the door and write a report to their superiors about why their impetuous egos couldn't follow simple instructions.

2/5

Katisha wrote:
actually this is a Tier 1-7

They're all lvl 4, and with Torch unarmored and just 2 bodyguards, the PCs still have a fairly good chance.

I'll try the tactics of laughing them off first.
If all reason still fails then...... :/

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

Nah, the party woulkd get hosed hard.

He makes a DC20 sense motive, then his thugs go to work - no sneaky go for the party to 'get the jump'.

Others have felt the same way

Also, you don't know whats under the bubbles in the bubblebath.

He's not a fool - he would have a range of contingencies in place.

Dark Archive 5/5 * Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf

The bath girl could run out the back door and tell her boyfriend on the watch that there is trouble. The watch could make an appearance, investigating the problem with a fine upstanding citizen who was attacked while in the bath. A round after the festivities began, you could hear whistles in the distance, and a couple rounds later the watch arrives.

Meanwhile the bodyguards could simply clock the barbarian nonlethally, then grapple the next victim. It is untiered. An AC of 30 or so and +10 with a sap with a few sneak dice would make short work of them. By the time the watch arrives, Torch would have the more convincing story, and the watch believe such a wealthy and benevolent citizen.

The watch then confirms with Torch if everything was ok, collect a special tip, and glare at the party.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Netherlands

Dont be afraid to knock the barbarian out, then have the bodyguards glare at the rest, to see if they change their tones.

Being a hero is important in the game, but there are still people with more power then the players. Learning that not everything can be solved trough violence is an important lesson they does keep coming back in other scenarios. Better they learn it from Torch who is rather forgiving (as long as he is entertained), then from that huge dragon who likes them crunchy and with ketchup.

Dark Archive 4/5

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Let them Fail.

no dice. no excuses. Two party members attack Torch and his retinue, the scenario is over. They beat you to a bloody pulp and you are thrown in jail. 5 pp for body recovery and here is your 0xp chronicle.

Let. Them. Fail.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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you could always just try the "soup bubble" strategy. Have "GM Torch and Guards" turn out to be 1st level Mooks - Experts/Bards in disguise. They go down with one hit - almost dead, then the Watch arrives, and there is talk about murder charges... then the real GM Torch arrives to "fix" things - and the players have the option to owe him a favor, or spend the week/year in jail.

"Did you REALLY think that guy looked like me? Wow, maybe I should pay him better..."

2/5

I worried they'd start the fight when i came back from work.

1 guy is talking business, rather than brazen boasting.
So hopefully they'll bite on the debt deal, as is his written 2nd option..or this'll get messy.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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I say don't be afraid to be a bit harsh if the players deserve it. Part of being GM is "raising" your players, in this case to realize that attacking people just because you don't like them can cost you the mission.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Netherlands

Educating the players is important. There are many scenarios were acting like this has even harsher repercussions. Sooner they learn, the better.

You dont have to auto fail them. Maybe let torch bodyguards beat them one by one and have the last guy in a chokehold when the watch comes. Then torch can offer that they own him the dept and he will forget their insults just this once. Or they can go with the guard for some good "quality vacation".

Scarab Sages 5/5

So, I can see it now.
The players draw weapons, and the walls erupt with the Guard - leaping out to "capture" the players who have walked into a Absalom Guard "Sting" operation. The PCs have gotten mistaken as a Red Mantis strike team and get to spend the next few hours trying to prove who/what they are. Ending with their Venture Captain having to come down to the local jail cell and personally ID them.

VC with scented cloth pressed to face to mask the aroma of the cell: "Yeah, I hate to admit it, but these are some of ours. You can release them into my custody sergeant. I'll handle it from here." Turning to the PCs. "I hope you realize how much trouble we have gone to for you ... agents? - The Ten actually heard about your little escapade. Many agents go years without ever being written into a Pathfinder Chronicle - and you lot get personal mention... Most of the Society will recognize your names for the next few months. You might want to consider changing them. It seems we are now indebted to Grand Master Torch for not actually pressing the matter..."

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

I agree 100% with John Compton here. I would take it a step further... when the guard cold-cocks the barbarian, don't bother rolling any dice. Just have it be over. Have the half-orc standing over the collapsed barbarian, laughing.

Yeah, don't resort to dice.

Heck, if you really wanted, have the half-orc just stand there, and take the barbarian's best blow. He chuckles, and says, "That the best you got?"

Or, as AJ says, above. Just let them earn their fail. If they do actually kill one of the guards, have Torch tell them that they will get nothing out of him until they restore his employee. Right as the city guards show up.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

I think its high time players took responsibility for their actions - it is not really the mandate of the GM to talk them down from doing something stupid.

A few dead characters might lead to some aware players, and the reason they 'hate' Torch is because he is a bit of a bad dude - he's not Diet Coke 1% bad, he's left a trail of bodies across Absalom, and these level 4's think they are playing at the same level... yeah nah.

The Barbarian needs to take a bath.

Scarab Sages 5/5

so, we're all wondering... how did you play it? How'd it come out?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

Katisha wrote:
so, we're all wondering... how did you play it? How'd it come out?

Click on GM Chyro, click on Campaigns, click on Season 1 Run, go to last page.

Or just follow this link

Scarab Sages 5/5

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Katisha wrote:
so, we're all wondering... how did you play it? How'd it come out?

Click on GM Chyro, click on Campaigns, click on Season 1 Run, go to last page.

Or just follow this link

Thanks!

2/5

Yes...still pending, but it's getting edgy.
I'm vaguely expecting the thing to go boom today or tomorrow.

I'm still wondering what of the severl methods suggested would work best.
It would be easier to say a bodyguard is strong enough to knock the barbarian KO.

Ironically, the newcomer (Carr) has played Rivalry's End, and could possibly say they're not that strong to pull that off. X)

Scarab Sages 5/5

GM Chyro wrote:

Yes...still pending, but it's getting edgy.

I'm vaguely expecting the thing to go boom today or tomorrow.

I'm still wondering what of the severl methods suggested would work best.
It would be easier to say a bodyguard is strong enough to knock the barbarian KO.

Ironically, the newcomer (Carr) has played Rivalry's End, and could possibly say they're not that strong to pull that off. X)

are the "bodyguards" in this one the same guys as in Rivalry's End? GMT is normally shown with 2 half-orc bodyguards - but they are never actually named (that I know of) and may actually be any number of NPCs... I sort of pictured them coming over from "Thugs are Us", with a standing contract for 2 guards available 24 hours a day. So at least 6 different guys... 8 if you factor in vacation days, sick time and Union holidays.

2/5

It mentions two half-orcs in heavy armor.
Aside from one disposing the smuggler with a kukri, they are not mentioned lacking weapons.

Which i reckon can even be orcish greataxes.
As a breastplate is not heavy armor, they are possibly/probably a heavier sort, if there's just two visible.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Katisha wrote:
"Thugs are Us"

::steal::

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Katisha wrote:
"Thugs are Us"
::steal::

Thugs-are-Us:

During a scenario with a "local thug" encounter, where the PCs are confronted by "hired thugs" intended to warn them off of their research, we captured several of the thugs and were questioning them.

Our judge had run another scenario for some of us the week before where we had much the same encounter... so he knew my PC and knew how I liked to handle the "Gather Information from the Thugs" (we had several "new" PCs in the group though). So the "interview" went something like this....

PC: "So Mook, we meet again!"
Mook #417: "Yeah, if'n I'd knowed it was yous, I might not've takkan dis job".
PC: "and how's the wife? and the little mooks? three isn't it?"
Mook #417: "same oh-same oh, off visitin' her mum again in Durma, and the lil ones is growin' like weeds..."
PC: glancing at the other mooks - stablized and waiting thier turn "So, does the local Thugs Union have ok Medical benifits? Looks like you guys will need it. Wait, you're Rent-A-Thug aren't you?"
Mook #417: "Not w'at it used ta be, w'at wit da cut backs and all. Had to switch over to Thugs-are-Us."
PC: "Tell ya what Mook, I'll pop for a couple charges off my happy stick when we're done here..."
Mook #417: "Hay, you're all ri't! T'anks!"
PC: "No problem! Least I can do. Now, about the guy who hired you..."

All this while the other players just watched. After all, I said my guy was the "Face"...

When I noted to the judge that I was marking off a wand charge for each of the Mooks, one of the other players also offered to chip in on the healing... "heck, they put up a good fight for Mooks! I wouldn't mind working with them again!"

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

The situation was a bit different in Rivalries End, perhaps Torch currently has some more top shelf talent at the moment? :p

Dark Archive 4/5

honestly - Rivalry's End is irrelevant to this scenario.

Looks like a half measure is how you are approaching it. so go with the cold-clock unarmed strike non-lethal damage equal to his HP+1. no dice rolls needed nor wanted. If that doesn't subdue the party into being proper pathfinders, fail the mission outright.

3/5 * Venture-Captain, Iowa–Spirit Lake

Humorously, I am in this scenario and then stumbled upon this by accident.

Spoiler:
Having already slain GMT and his body guard (with ease), I know I can take them. It's not even funny.
The trouble is that the party is reticent to owe such a despicable figure a "favor", despite the fact that I also know that the favor is a tie-in to a future scenario.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

Joshua Pierce wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Rivalry's End:
Actually managing to 'slay' GMT is plain luck (or actually plain murder hoboing as he is just trying to get away). If he get's a turn he should be gone. If the GM doesn't read his tactics you might have an extra round. If he actually goes to attack things might turn out very bad indeed.
3/5 * Venture-Captain, Iowa–Spirit Lake

Auke Teeninga wrote:


** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Someone won init after he slit the throat and got a Hold Person on him. Little bit of luck, yeah. I was all for not killing him, but someone else in the party wasn't as benevolent.
Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

Joshua Pierce wrote:
Auke Teeninga wrote:


** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

rivalry's end:
actually the adventure says GMT survives whatever happens... so it wasn't the real torch anyway
4/5

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Joshua Pierce wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Except, (assuming my memory is being less faulty than usual), he just

Spoiler:
slit a woman's throat in cold blood.

My PC in question doesn't even need to think in that situation. Granted, he rarely thinks anyway. That's *way* too hard.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

Gino Melone wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Rivalry's end:
If your character thinks Torch wasn't entitled to kill the Spider, and that Golarion is better without her, your character really doesn't have a clue.
Silver Crusade 5/5

Woo! GMT thread! Everybody drink! I'm late to the party, better make it two!

4/5

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Gino Melone wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Well. He is INT 7 and (at the time) WIS 9.

2/5

Much to my relief, they have decided to follow the favor for a favor way.

But they don't like it nonetheless. :D

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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While players may forget after a certain point in any adventurer's career they learn that death is only a financial condition and like all other conditions can be cleared.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Also check out the PRODUCT PAGE on PathfinderWiki for a complete listing of all of Grandmaster Torch's major appearances.

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