pinned condition and attack action

[Thiamael]

Hello everybody. here's a new thread about an old question (as i saw threads from 2010 about it) but none seems to properly answer it.

the question is "can somebody deliver an attack or a touch attack while being pinned ? ".

first of all, here is a link about the grappled and pinned conditions taken from the d20pfsrd website, site that take in account (as far as i have seen it) what as been said in the paizo FAQ.

grappled condition :
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Grappled

pinned condition :
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Pinned

here is another topic on a similar subject, i will present you with some of the arguments we can find in it and why there are not correct to me.
i will ignore every dm fiat and houserule. for if i wanted to use houseroules, i wouldn't post this question in the first time.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kx1a?Pinned-Question#25

Happler said wrote:

I think that this line:

Quote:

A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component.

for me states that the pinned creature does not have use of their hands at all. Since to cast a spell with somatic it states:
Quote:

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

So the inability to cast with somatic means that you do not have one hand free at all. Thus no touch attacks, no attacks with one-handed or light weapons.

problem is that we have the same statement in the grappled condition. and we can still attack in the grappled condition. so Happler and M P 433 did not really chose the best angle to reckon that through.

then we have several people arguing about how to interpret the line "A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions."

trying to interpret a vague statement as this one that clearly must be a flavour text is just good to get a good headache and to lose your hair. i tried to compare to the french version of this statement only to see that it was not correctly translated.

(in the pathfinder wiki : http://www.pathfinder-fr.org/Wiki/Pathfinder-RPG.%c3%89tats%20pr%c3%a9judic iables.ashx)
in french they say "Une créature immobilisée est fermement retenue et ne peut pas entreprendre la moindre action." wich can be translated by "a pinned creature is tightly bound and cannot take a single action."

the french version does not help here.

then, here comes the "asnwer" marked as favorite

Sean K Reynolds said wrote:

Making a touch attack is neither a verbal action nor a mental action. That is self-evident.

Oh? so i must presume that a combat maneuver check or an escape artist check is only a mental or verbal action? the pinned guy must be quite a psion or at least a terrible bard, screaming loudly in your hears and making you release your grasp on him with a tremendous pain !

one last point is on the rule that say : "Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack."

in grappled, there is a -2 to attack and touch attack actions. in pinned there is nothing about it. shall i presume that it means there is simply no attack or touch attack action in the pinned condition?
or must i consider that the -2 is still effective? but it shouldn't as their conditions do not stack. right?

not really a point on wich we can base our debate if we hope to find an answer.

sorry for the long post. this question and all the debate that run around makes me a bit too much angry. i hope you won't be affraid and help me find the one argument to take them all and in darkness bind them.

[wraithstrike]

Combat maneuver and escape artist are not mental actions. A pinned person can do these because they are specifically allowed by the rules text.

You can not attack while pinned, not even with touch attacks. That would require you to be able to move. The pinned penalties does not stack with the grappled penalties.

[Thiamael]

wraithstrike wrote:

Combat maneuver and escape artist are not mental actions. A pinned person can do these because they are specifically allowed by the rules text.

You can not attack while pinned, not even with touch attacks. That would require you to be able to move. The pinned penalties does not stack with the grappled penalties.

i know combat maneuver and escape artist aren't mental actions. i was just giving a counterargument to the answer of Sean.

so, you cannot attack because you cannot move? so you can't attack while being grappled either. 'cause the grappled condtion also state that you cannot move. so why bother apply a -2 to attack if you can't attack?

sorry. i don't think this answers the problem.

[dragonhunterq]

pinned wrote:

A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component...

...Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

This tells you what you need to know about pinned.

It goes:
You have limited actions, heres a list.
You can attempt to escape (by CM or EA).
You can take verbal and mental actions.
The penalties for grappled do not apply when you are pinned.

Neither attack nor touch attack is on that list, so neither are permitted.

So very much this:

wraithstrike wrote:

Combat maneuver and escape artist are not mental actions. A pinned person can do these because they are specifically allowed by the rules text.

[Thiamael]

dragonhunterq wrote:

pinned wrote:

A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component...

...Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

This tells you what you need to know about pinned.

It goes:
You have limited actions, heres a list.
You can attempt to escape (by CM or EA).
You can take verbal and mental actions.
The penalties for grappled do not apply when you are pinned.

Neither attack nor touch attack is on that list, so neither are permitted.

So very much this:

wraithstrike wrote:

Combat maneuver and escape artist are not mental actions. A pinned person can do these because they are specifically allowed by the rules text.

"heres a list" is not clearly written. but i think i can't have a better answer. I would have enjoyed an answer from the paizo staff that clearly point "it is like that, end of the question". but since they haven't done it in 2010. i reckon they won't do it here now.

thanks to wraithstrike and to dragonhunterq for their contribution.
i will content myself with your answer, dragonhunterq.

[Nefreet]

You're looking for a direct answer from Paizo staff, but you're not happy with the answer you found from a [then current] staff member?

[Thiamael]

Nefreet wrote:

You're looking for a direct answer from Paizo staff, but you're not happy with the answer you found from a [then current] staff member?

sorry. i didn't realised that dragonhunterq was a staff member.

where is it written on the thread? (so i won't make the same mistake twice.)

I deeply apologies to you, dragonhunterq.

thanks for the answer.

[Bandw2]

Thiamael wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Combat maneuver and escape artist are not mental actions. A pinned person can do these because they are specifically allowed by the rules text.

You can not attack while pinned, not even with touch attacks. That would require you to be able to move. The pinned penalties does not stack with the grappled penalties.

i know combat maneuver and escape artist aren't mental actions. i was just giving a counterargument to the answer of Sean.

so, you cannot attack because you cannot move? so you can't attack while being grappled either. 'cause the grappled condtion also state that you cannot move. so why bother apply a -2 to attack if you can't attack?

sorry. i don't think this answers the problem.

I actually think this is one of the times that I say "strict readings of the rules get you no where", again.

The grappled condition's move is in context, about being able to move from your square, I believe that pinned also likely has the intention.

The pinned condition however, does state, you can take few actions, and then goes on to explain what actions you can take.

however, you can succeed at a touch attack, if they're already touching you I believe, it becomes a purely mental action to discharge the spell and requires no roll.

touch attacks:

Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
---magic---
In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

though this can definitely be open to interpretation. though, i should mention you can only do this if they're still touching you on your turn, as it still requires action economy.

[dragonhunterq]

Thiamael wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

You're looking for a direct answer from Paizo staff, but you're not happy with the answer you found from a [then current] staff member?

sorry. i didn't realised that dragonhunterq was a staff member.

where is it written on the thread? (so i won't make the same mistake twice.)

I deeply apologies to you, dragonhunterq.

thanks for the answer.

I am SO not a staff member. Nefreet was referring to former very senior member of staff Sean K Reynolds.

[Thiamael]

dragonhunterq wrote:

Thiamael wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

You're looking for a direct answer from Paizo staff, but you're not happy with the answer you found from a [then current] staff member?

sorry. i didn't realised that dragonhunterq was a staff member.

where is it written on the thread? (so i won't make the same mistake twice.)

I deeply apologies to you, dragonhunterq.

thanks for the answer.

I am SO not a staff member. Nefreet was referring to former very senior member of staff Sean K Reynolds.

Now i'm totally confused. I'm unable to determine who is or not a staff member on this forum. Only clue i see here must be the little key on Nefreet's name. But Sean K Reynolds doesn't have any.

Nefreet wrote:

You're looking for a direct answer from Paizo staff, but you're not happy with the answer you found from a [then current] staff member?

Well, if you speak about Sean's answer. Yes i'm totally unhappy with that. and i've already explained why. I would have been happy if it was clear that he was a staff member, if he had clearly said "yes, it is like that" and not by quoting only a part of the rule that taken alone can easily be countered by another part of the rule taken alone.

(that's without considering that the given answer was very haughty).

sorry if i'm not sattisfied with that.

the far more satisfying answer as far as it goes here is dragonhunterq's. but now you're telling me you're not from the staff. so what could have been a clear way of interpreting the text seems now only to be a personnal tough on how to interpret it.

from now on, i will go with dragonhunterq's asnwer when i'm the DM and i won't go on a brawler type character when i'm not 'cause i won't be able to say to my DM friend "it's like that and no other way."

you should know how frustrating it is for a player when he create a character based on a precise game mecanic and he suddenly realise that because the rule isn't totally clear, his DM as houseruled some part of it and now the character build seems tottaly wrong, and even sometime unplayable.

my current DM as stated that the pinned character can still attack but with a -4 to touch and melee attacks. he was even thinking of adding the staggered condition to the pinned character. why is that? simply because he can't either decide how to interpret this rule.

it is also frustratring for the DM when the only answer he can gives is a houserule.

this issue is taking a way that really isn't the one i wanted. i'm sorry for all the desagrement i've caused.

let me rephrase the question now that we have some elements of an answer.

must this rule be interpretated in the way dragonhunterq suggested it or not?

[Trekkie90909]

Off-topic Re: Sean K. Reynolds and determining a poster's affiliation to Paizo:

He has a 'contributor' tag next to his name, which shows he writes (or has written) material (which has been published) for (by) Paizo. Formerly he was head of.. I forget (for some reason I want to say creative director, but I think JJ's been that the whole time?), but the bottom line is he used to work at Paizo, and was a high-level/senior employee at the time of the post.

For the record, where you see 'contributor' next to Sean's name now, you'd normally see someone's job title if they are an employee; I'd recommend checking the off-topic forum for example (ask Mark Seifter anything for example).

The key and other symbols don't really correspond to anything pertaining to the forums in general (iirc it's tied into one's choice of PFS (Pathfinder Society Organized Play) faction).

[Trekkie90909]

*Important Points Going into This*

1. The D20pfsrd does not contain 100% accurate text regarding the grappled, and pinned conditions; specifically it over-restricts the options available to casters in a grapple.
2. The OP is unlikely to get an FAQ response because the FAQ team likes to have simple one or two line questions to answer, free of context.

On to the topic at hand:

Grapple Related Quotes:

Grappled Condition wrote:

A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.

Grapple Combat Maneuver wrote:

If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

FAQ, Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook wrote:

"Grapple: There are some contradictions between the various rules on grappling. What is correct?"

To sum up the correct rules:

1) Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target.

2) A grappled creature can still make a full attack.

3) Being pinned does not make you flat-footed, but you are denied your Dex bonus.

Update: Page 195—In Table 8–6: Armor Class Modifiers, in the entry for Grappling, delete the superscript “1” after the +0 in the Melee and Ranged columns. In the third footnote, change “flat-footed and cannot add his Dexterity bonus” to “denied its Dexterity bonus”

Update: Page 201—In the If You Are Grappled section, in the fourth sentence, change “any action that requires only one hand to perform” to “any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform.” In the fourth sentence, change “make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon” to “make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon”

Update: Page 568—In the Pinned condition, in the second sentence, change “flat-footed” to “denied its Dexterity bonus.”

Grapple Summary:

Actions Specifically Allowed While Grappled:

Grapple (presumably to escape, or gain control although the language is general enough to allow grappling other creatures)
A Combat Maneuver check to break the grapple
An Escape Artist check to escape the grapple
An Attack action
A Full-Attack action
Cast a Spell
Use a Spell-Like Ability

Actions Specifically Dis-Allowed While Grappled:

Any action requiring two hands (FAQ candidtate: Possibly excepting grappling, see above: Actions Specifically Allowed While Grappled. Unless anyone with the grappled condition is required to grapple with only one arm/limb [imposes a -4 penalty on the check, including the creature maintaining the grapple.])
Stealth to hide from the creature it is grappling (or being grappled by)
Attacks of Opportunity

Pinned Related Quotes:

Pinned Condition wrote:

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Grapple Combat Maneuver wrote:

Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

FAQ, Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook wrote:

"Pin: A creature grappling an opponent typically needs to make two combat maneuver checks to pin someone (one to grapple, the next to pin). If you're pinned, do you also need to succeed at two checks to escape, one for the grab and the other for the pin?"

No. When a creature is pinned, it gains this more severe version of the grappled condition, and the two conditions do not stack (as described in the pinned condition). While this means that you do not take both the penalties for both the grapple and the pin, this also means that pinned supersedes the grapple condition; it does not compound it. For this reason you only need to succeed one combat maneuver or Escape Artist check to escape either a grapple or a pin.

Pinned Summary:

Actions Specifically Allowed While Pinned:

Combat Maneuver Check to break grapple
Escape Artist Check to escape grapple
Verbal and Mental actions

Actions Specifically Dis-allowed While Pinned:

Move
Cast Spells requiring somatic or material components

That's all the relevant text I can find on actions you can take while someone is grappling or pinning you.

If you want to run a strict RAW (read as written) approach, see the summaries above; there’s room for an FAQ request in the grapple write-up, which does not account for needing 2 hands to grapple without penalties. I think the intent is pretty obvious there however, so the easy solution of adding a line to the grappled condition, after “…can take no action which requires two hands to perform” to include the phrase “except the grapple combat maneuver” is unnecessary except to fix the strict RAW issue.

Now a RAI (read as intended) approach is somewhat more interesting; mostly because of the phrase “a pinned creature…can take few actions,” and because the list of allowed actions read as examples instead of as a comprehensive list, but also because it grants spellcasters a huge advantage over non-spellcasters since they’re still allowed to cast spells (albeit with restrictions) implying that there should be some sort of martial equivalent—arguably already present in the grapple combat maneuver.

More generally, since it’s possible to use spells and spell-like abilities in a grapple/while pinned, it should be possible to also use supernatural and extraordinary abilities which are generally less restrictive. If those are allowed, then why not attacks? Clarification here would be nice, preferably in the form of an FAQ response, but in the absence of that SKR's response argues for a stricter RAW reading (see last paragraph).

Then too "move" is an open description: usually this means movement in game (i.e. taking a move action to move, or moving as part of some other action e.g. a charge), and that's the interpretation I'd take here. It could be applied more restrictively however, to mean that you cannot physically move any portion of your anatomy and while this is not language typical for the rules, is a reasonable interpretation and certainly possible within the context. Clarification here would also be nice, although I'm uncertain if an FAQ response is strictly necessary.

The existing clarification by SKR does shed some light of course; his response that “Making a touch attack is neither a verbal action nor a mental action. That is self-evident.” indicates that (at least at the time) the design team intended the list of actions under the pinned condition to be exhaustive, instead of exemplar. This has never been codified into a solid FAQ however.

[Numarak]

It happened to everyone, we designed a character and found out that there is a rule for which RAW answer confronts our expectations and thus our RAI.

The consensus about the Pinned Condition follows the suggestion that dragonhunterq pointed out. The list of actions you can do while pinned is exhaustive.

We also have to remember that, although that in this forum we should stick to RAW answers, out of PFS, you should play the game the way you get the highest enjoyment from it, and for that there must exist an open dialogue with your GM.

[Nefreet]

You should not be citing anything from d20pfsrd. It is a third party site that has gotten into trouble with Paizo in the past. They modify the wording on quite a bit of content, they include third party content, and they interpose their interpretations on unclear rules.

It's better to quote from and link to Paizo's PRD. In the cases where you can't, try archivesofnethys.com instead. They're still a third party site, but they've never stepped on Paizo's toes and they don't modify any content. They're not 100%, but they're the closest thing to it next to Paizo.

Jason Bulmahn, Sean K Reynolds, James Jacobs and Wes Schneider designed the Core Rulebook. Their names are found on the inside cover.

(I never imagined there'd be a day when a Pathfinder player didn't know who SKR was)

[Thiamael]

sorry if i don't take for true a simple name without tags on a forum. when i see an answer like the one he has given and when you confirm his identity, the only thing i can say is that it's strikes me into fear.

now. i have considered you're last sentence about the d20pfsrd reliability and just gone checked on Paizo's PRD.

i've finded the grappled and pinned conditions in the glossary. it appears to be the same wording as on d20pfsrd. maybe another time d20pfsrd won't be accurate, but for once they are.

so i still don't know if we are supposed to take the given list of actions as an exhaustive one or not.

according to Numarak, it seems that there is a consensus about it(i don't know where to find it, though) that fits what dragonhunterq said. i'll try to convince my DM with that.

sorry for bothering all of you.

now, if i asked this question, if several peoples asked it, that pathfinder players seems to had a consensus on it. that some people even here and now on this own thread as given a different answer...

maybe, it is time to think once again about another wording around pinned condition to set this debate once and for all? no?

thanks to everybody for all your answers. feel free to continue if you want. for myself, i won't. i haven't got anymore credit as i don't know one of the "saints" who wrote the core rulebook.

oh, and i don't have the core rulebook. sorry. one new bad point for me. but i only buyed specific books for they give specific feats, rules or classes that you don't find on the internet.

for my defense, i didn't buy it 'cause a living game like this ones as a tendancy to evolve (through new stuff and corrections) and the paper version of a core rulebook can become obsolete quite fast.

once again. sorry. have a nice game and day and i hope i'll see each of you next time on a more pleasant situation.

[Nefreet]

The PDF is only $10, and comes with a changelog.

[wraithstrike]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

stuff about SKR

He was never the head of anything. He was a member of the rules design team under Jason.

[Trekkie90909]

wraithstrike wrote:

Trekkie90909 wrote:

stuff about SKR

He was never the head of anything. He was a member of the rules design team under Jason.

Thank you, my memory can be terribly spotty at times.