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If you cast, say POWER WORD KILL on a troll, does it die?
Or is it immune as "A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). "
So, a troll is immune to Power word kill, symbol of death and similar spells?
How about a failed Fort save from CdG?
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I'd recommend referring back to Ravingdork's thread on this topic here. Not because there's one true answer there, but mostly because it could be useful and has several FAQ clicks already.
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This is a question that gets tossed around a lot. I'm not aware of any definitive answer.
It seems like, at the very least, desintigrate should work, as you turn all of the (say) troll's cells to ash leaving to nothing from which it can regenerate. As a GM, I would rule other things that completely destroy all of a creature's cells at once (like being transported to the negative energy plane and being left there) would also work, but that's just me.
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I would say anything that kills it by bypassing hit point damage keeps it dead since regeneration says that attacks that don't generate hit point damage can not be healed by regeneration.
A spell(also other effects) that says "you die" does not care about hit points.
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At the moment expect table variation between "regeneration? pfft who needs fire/acid/whatever switches it off - it might as well just be fast healing" and "OMG how on earth do you kill these things without fire/acid/whatever switches it off"
I tend to prioritise this bit:
but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning
So a bit more towards the "OMG how do you kill these things"
I'd recommend referring back to Ravingdork's thread on this topic here. Not because there's one true answer there, but mostly because it could be useful and has several FAQ clicks already.
Mark that is indeed a great thread. But do note it is 3 years old.
This has come up several times, perhaps it is time for a FAQ.
Power Word, Kill. I'd say yes. Trolls can die from it.
Regeneration doesn't work for "sources" that don't deal hit point damage (PWK hit point is just a limiting faction, the spell doesn't deal 100hp damage so creatures with 101hp still live). PWK doesn't deal damage, it directly kills the target as long as it's "eligible".
Coup de grace: Id say no. While there's a fortitude saving throw involved, the roll is still based on hit point damage (automatic critical, damage added to the saving throw DC).
While still suitable to discussion, I'd think that by this:
Regeneration ... **snip**...Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration...
... What they meant is that these attack forms have full effect, and are not blocked and/or prevented by regeneration.
Regeneration heals hit points only, so something that damages but doesn't deal hit point is not "healed", and something that kills but doesn't deal hit point damage is also not "healed".
Still, as said several times, it's still subject to debate.
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Psychic Crush is an in between spell, it doesn't do HP damage per se, but sets you at -1 and dying. I have no idea if regeneration is appropriate.
Psychic Crush is an in between spell, it doesn't do HP damage per se, but sets you at -1 and dying. I have no idea if regeneration is appropriate.
I don't see problem there. Spell should work perfectly, you can apply all rules there
Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning...
...Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration.
By my understanding, Regen "heals damage" and prevents "death by HP damage" as long as it's active, simple as that. Regen doesn't "heal" anything that doesn't deal HP damage. If regen is blocked in any way (fire/acid/effect based on the specific creature description), then the next turn creature can die from HP damage normally (if you cast PC on your average 5hp/round regen troll, once it's the troll's turn he'd regen from -1 to +4 and regain consciousness, that's it)
Psychic Crush leaves you at -1hp (and thus, unconscious and dying) but it doesn't bypass or disable regeneration in any way, nor does it kill the creature straight away. Even if you keep hitting the creature after the Psychic Crush and leave it at negative HP higher than the creature's CON, you still dealt HP damage to the creature and thus Regen still prevents death because of HP loss. Once it's the creature's turn regen should just kick in and the target would start regenerating normally the damage taken.
Two examples (always by my understanding)
"You save or end up with -10.000.000 hp": Creature doesn't die even with a failed save. Falls unconscious but regen is active. It'll take forever to regain consciousness (and probably die from thirst or starvation way sooner), but still won't die from the spell.
"You save or die <because of anything that isn't explicitly based on HP damage>": Creature dies if she fails the save. For example "save or your CON drops to zero", "save or you take negative levels equal to your current level/hit dice" or just "save or die".
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This reminds me of the idea we had back in the 80's to just chop off a trolls arm and keep cutting pieces off as a food source as the acid in your stomach would stop the regen.
Or the second question of just how much troll do you have to have left or what parts of a troll do you need to re-grow a full sized troll? ie cut a troll down the middle does each half grow into a fully functioning troll.IMHO, any death effect should stop-regen if it puts you in a death condition.
IMHO, the Tarrasque's regeneration notes should almost be name a different ability because as written it is more powerful then the trolls regen and or standard regen of monsters.
MDC
I'm a fan of making a rule that the largest chunk grows into the creature.
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By my understanding, Regen "heals damage" and prevents "death by HP damage" as long as it's active,Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning...
...Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration.
Except it doesn't say that it prevents "death by HP damage", and in fact, it doesn't talk about cause of death at all. It simply says that a creature without regeneration cannot die, which is pretty all-encompassing.
Psychic Crush is an in between spell, it doesn't do HP damage per se, but sets you at -1 and dying. I have no idea if regeneration is appropriate.I don't see problem there. Spell should work perfectly, you can apply all rules there
Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning...
...Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration.
By my understanding, Regen "heals damage" and prevents "death by HP damage" as long as it's active, simple as that. Regen doesn't "heal" anything that doesn't deal HP damage. If regen is blocked in any way (fire/acid/effect based on the specific creature description), then the next turn creature can die from HP damage normally (if you cast PC on your average 5hp/round regen troll, once it's the troll's turn he'd regen from -1 to +4 and regain consciousness, that's it)
Psychic Crush leaves you at -1hp (and thus, unconscious and dying) but it doesn't bypass or disable regeneration in any way, nor does it kill the creature straight away. Even if you keep hitting the creature after the Psychic Crush and leave it at negative HP higher than the creature's CON, you still dealt HP damage to the creature and thus Regen still prevents death because of HP loss. Once it's the creature's turn regen should just kick in and the target would start regenerating normally the damage taken.
I don't think resetting your HP to -1 is necessarily conceptually the same as "doing damage" to get your HP to -1.
Except it doesn't say that it prevents "death by HP damage", and in fact, it doesn't talk about cause of death at all. It simply says that a creature without regeneration cannot die, which is pretty all-encompassing.
Attack forms that don't deal hp damage "are not healed by regeneration". If I cast PWK (an attack form that doesn't deal HP damage), then the "you are killed" part of the spell is not "healed". In this case, either the creature dies or the creature lives, it does not convert the creature into some form of Schrödinger cat being dead and alive at the same time.
A good clue is this one:
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic
If you're "killed outright" you gain the "dead" condition, and once "dead" condition is set, then healing doesn not funcion anymore because "dead" condition prevents it. Rules like the Tarrasque's special regeneration and other hints here and there seem to point specifically at this.
Regeneration is a generic rule common to many enemies and even players, but specific rules have priority over generic ones unless you deliberately ignore the ones you don't like and exclusively use the ones you benefit from. But in that case you would break the game flow because many specific rules break generic ones (a quick example, when you grapple someone else, you BOTH get the grapple condition, now just check around and you'll find many "you grapple, but don't gain the grappled condition yourself when using XXXXX")
Same happens with spells like Disintegrate. Disintegrate deals HP damage, can it outright kill a creature with regeneration?. Almost everybody, by pure common sense, will say YES. Disintegrate has a specific rule that says, "If disintegrate drops your HP to 0hp or less you end up in a pile of ash", and that "you become a (very dead) pile of ash" has priority over the generic "you cannot die as long as I'm active" one.
I'd also like to point to your everyday Troll, that uses "normal" regeneration rules. Specifically, to their ecology. things like starvation and drowning make regen cease function
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Attack forms that don't deal hp damage "are not healed by regeneration". '
Granted.
If I cast PWK (an attack form that doesn't deal HP damage), then the "you are killed" part of the spell is not "healed".
Also granted. On the other hand, the "you are killed" part of the spell also never happened in the first place, since the creature cannot die.
In this case, either the creature dies or the creature lives,
... and since it can't die, the PWK spell is completely ineffective.
A better example to your purpose would be a poison that causes lots of Constitution damage. The monster would drop to Con 0, but would not die, because the monster cannot die as per rule. In this case, the monster would presumably be incapacitated (although even that is an unsupported assumption) and would remain so forever, or until the Constitution damage were healed by an external source.
There is literally no way to kill a creature that cannot die. Words have meanings.
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RAI the regenerating creature dies maybe, by RAW if you have regeneration active you don't die. It doesn't matter what regeneration heals or doesn't, it simply states you don't die. So yeah, a troll or something that happens to have 100,000 damage done to it, suffocated, 1,000 negative levels, with 0 in every stat is still alive.
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Words have meanings.
I couldn't help but think of this meme. Twice as funny, given the circumstances!
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RAI the regenerating creature dies maybe, by RAW if you have regeneration active you don't die. It doesn't matter what regeneration heals or doesn't, it simply states you don't die. So yeah, a troll or something that happens to have 100,000 damage done to it, suffocated, 1,000 negative levels, with 0 in every stat is still alive.
But probably extremely peeved at whoever did that.
... and since it can't die, the PWK spell is completely ineffective.A better example to your purpose would be a poison that causes lots of Constitution damage. The monster would drop to Con 0, but would not die, because the monster cannot die as per rule. In this case, the monster would presumably be incapacitated (although even that is an unsupported assumption) and would remain so forever, or until the Constitution damage were healed by an external source.
There is literally no way to kill a creature that cannot die. Words have meanings.
RAW also has meanings.
RAW says 0 CON = you die. Your "unsupported assumption" says you don't die. Either you go RAW, or you go "unsupported assumption" (AKA: houserule).
You cannot ignore one RAW because it doesn't "fit" another RAW. Either you ignore both or you accept both and see if you can keep both working together.
And in this case you can, because you're trying to apply to regeneration something whose job belongs to a completely different rule.
Immunity (Ex or Su)
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.
Format: Immune acid, fire, paralysis; Location: Defensive Abilities.
You are implying that Regeneration makes dead ineffective. Quite the opposite. If you're not IMMUNE: Death effects, then the condition and it's effect will fully apply. Same happens with other "attack forms" that do not deal hit point damage. As long as the attack form applies a condition, affliction, spell... it's Immunity's job to prevent them from happening, not Regeneration.
As a quick example you may compare a Tarrasque and a Titan. Tarrasque can die from death effects while Titans cannot (because titans have Immunity: Death effects). In fact, while Tarrasque can die from a Death effect, she has a special regeneration rule that RAISES her from the Death if that condition is applied. And to remove a condition you must apply it first.
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I think some people are arguing RAW, and others are arguing intent(what you think the PDT will rule). In order to avoid an "I'm right, you're wrong", endless loop you might want clarify which one you are arguing from.
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Also they might need to modify the rule to something like:
"You can not die due to hit point damage as long as regeneration is functioning...
"...Effects that do not cause death via hit point damage such as drowning or death effects kill the creature, and regeneration can not be used to bring that creature back to life unless otherwise stated in that creature's entry."
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Going through the rules, RAW, you could 'kill' a troll by locking it a cage for weeks. Starvation doesn't allow hit points to be recovered by any means until you eat, so our hypothetical troll would eventually hit zero HP, would be permenantly unconcious couldn't eat, and wouldn't be a problem any more. He wouldn't be dead, but he'd be as good as.
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In a recent AP, it was recommended that PCs who might not be able to overcome an enemy's regeneration could hold her underwater till she drowned, that being sufficient to kill her.
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In a recent AP, it was recommended that PCs who might not be able to overcome an enemy's regeneration could hold her underwater till she drowned, that being sufficient to kill her.
This has come up before, and I said this then and I'll say it again, taking a troll to an arbitrary number of negative hp and sticking it's head in a bucket of water isn't going to kill it any game I run.
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On a related note, trolls actually can't starve, as they can take a bite out of their own arm/leg and digest that, while regrowing the meat.The problem here is that it still cause's pain. But do I think there was a point that you would not mind ripping off your thumb every day and eating it. Maybe.
Considering troll augers I have no trouble believing it.
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From the Regeneration rules: Creatures with regeneration ... cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning.
So any plan for killing a troll that does not somehow involve turning off regeneration will, by RAW, not work.
Death spell? does not work.
Starvation? does not work.
Ability drain? does not work.
Suffocation? does not work.
Level drain? does not work.
Making it listen to Taylor Swift covers? does not work.
The sole exception would be some sort of death effect that explicitly trumps regeneration. A hypothetical power-word-sudo-kill-and-I-mean-it spell, for example, might say "You utter a single word of power that instantly kills one creature of your choice, irrespective of any monster abilities or immunities that it has."
But I'm not familiar with any such power word sudo in the system.
But even that is hindered if the troll is physically restricted from eating.
For example, due to being unconscious with negative one septillion hp. He will die of starvation before his health becomes positive again.
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In a recent AP, it was recommended that PCs who might not be able to overcome an enemy's regeneration could hold her underwater till she drowned, that being sufficient to kill her.This has come up before, and I said this then and I'll say it again, taking a troll to an arbitrary number of negative hp and sticking it's head in a bucket of water isn't going to kill it any game I run.
Suffocation kills, and it does not require hit point damage. You can rule however you want in your game, but if we are speaking of rules then you need to explain how regeneration is going to bring the troll back when it did not die from hit point damage.
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While regeneration is not shut down you explicitly cannot die. It does not limit that to death from HP damage. Something says "you die" you go "no, thanks". So the third round of suffocation does nothing to a critter with regeneration (obviously subject to argument).
Mind you, I can't think of a way to feed/water an unconscious person within the rules. So whether their is a functional difference between "unconcious with no way to ingest food and water, so no way to heal" and actually being dead is, I'm not sure.
But even that is hindered if the troll is physically restricted from eating.
For example, due to being unconscious with negative one septillion hp. He will die of starvation before his health becomes positive again.
No, he can't die. So he won't die of starvation, or of any other cause.
you need to explain how regeneration is going to bring the troll back when it did not die from hit point damage.
There's nothing to explain. You don't need to be brought back when you never went there in the first place.
Horror Adventures added a Bestow Curse effect that halves magical healing and stops natural healing. So reduce to negative hit points with starvation or suffocation, curse, bury. Even if not dead, it can't ever revive unless someone digs it up and applies magical healing. Lots of magical healing, as ongoing effects further degrade the not a corpse.
Look, guys, the rules contradict one another in this case. It's a perfect FAQ candidate. And, pretty easy to write, I think.
I dunno why it has taken 3 years......????
The text of Power Word Kill does not say it does hit point damage, as others have noted. Therefore, RAW, this is an assumption. It is equally possible, but equally an assumption, that PWK drops Constitution to 0. This is a kill according to Ability damage RAW.
OK, you say, but regeneration is still functioning - that's true, again, RAW. However, regeneration does not heal ability damage AND "a creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability." So reducing a regenerating creature's Con to 0 kills it on two counts - cancels that regen, and any amount of regen would leave it at Con=0, anyway. Dead, and dead again.
So all else aside, knocking Con to 0 kills the creature. But does PWK do that? That's an assumption of equal magnitude to the assumption PWK does HP damage.
Actually it's not Jengada nothing in PWK would lead you to believe it sets a creatures con to 0. It kills it outright not through any other means.
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Actually it's not Jengada nothing in PWK would lead you to believe it sets a creatures con to 0. It kills it outright not through any other means.
I'm fine with that, I was making the point that PWK doesn't say it's HP damage, either. But that means PWK is in the realm of "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration."
It seems one either has to accept that an attack not dealing HP damage can kill them, or there's a fundamental contradiction within the "Regeneration" text.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
you need to explain how regeneration is going to bring the troll back when it did not die from hit point damage.There's nothing to explain. You don't need to be brought back when you never went there in the first place.
I doubt the other poster is saying nothing can kill the troll. They are just saying they wont let it work because they don't like it.
So yeah they do need to explain unless they just say "nothing can kill the troll except fire and acid" which shuts down regen.
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The text of Power Word Kill does not say it does hit point damage, as others have noted. Therefore, RAW, this is an assumption. It is equally possible, but equally an assumption, that PWK drops Constitution to 0. This is a kill according to Ability damage RAW.
OK, you say, but regeneration is still functioning - that's true, again, RAW. However, regeneration does not heal ability damage AND "a creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability." So reducing a regenerating creature's Con to 0 kills it on two counts - cancels that regen, and any amount of regen would leave it at Con=0, anyway. Dead, and dead again.
So all else aside, knocking Con to 0 kills the creature. But does PWK do that? That's an assumption of equal magnitude to the assumption PWK does HP damage.
PWK, kills you. That much is true. If you are dead then your constitution is 0. That is in the rulebook.
From here we have to decide if we are going to follow the idea that you have to shut regen down before applying PWK, or can we kill the troll while regen is still up.
If we go with the former the troll is alive and PWK does not do anything since he can not be killed while regen is in effect. If we go with the latter the troll is dead, and he stays dead.
Edit: I am checking to see if regen shuts off at Con 0 or Con -. They are not the same. One means you have a number set at 0. The other means you don't have a con score at all.
Edit 2:
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
0 is a con score.
Undead don't have con scores at all.
No Constitution score.
Can you quote where it says being dead your Con is zero?
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I can see it either way.
1) Death in Pathfinder is afterall, basically an affliction. Like formal afflictions, it carries negative effects but can be magically removed. As written, (actively working) Regeneration simply renders you unable to gain the Dead condition, kind of like Death Ward renders Negative Levels moot while that is up and in effect.
2) Alternately, the rule saying "cannot die" is overly simplified and poorly worded. "Clearly", the RAI is "cannot die due to HP loss".
In my rules-lawyerly view, both arguments are 100% valid. And since they're opposite outcomes, I'd agree that the Devs owe us a FAQ on this.
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Can you quote where it says being dead your Con is zero?
I misread the dead condition. The above statement I made was incorrect.
Okay I was looking all over an thought I missed it.
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It seems one either has to accept that an attack not dealing HP damage can kill them, or there's a fundamental contradiction within the "Regeneration" text.
The actual "contradiction" (but, of course, it's nothing of the sort) is between the various lines that say "creatures die when such-and-such" and "creatures with regeneration [...] cannot die." And this is a fairly vanilla case of "specific trumps general"; the general rule, for example, is that creatures with 0 Con die, but creatures with regeneration are (specifically) spared from that rule.
And, by the way, it's not that "nothing can kill a troll except fire and acid." If a troll's regeneration has been shut down, then power word kill will, in fact, kill a troll (because regeneration is no longer active), as would any other effect that normally kills, including hit point damage.
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From the Regeneration rules: Creatures with regeneration ... cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning.
So any plan for killing a troll that does not somehow involve turning off regeneration will, by RAW, not work.
Death spell? does not work.
Starvation? does not work.
Ability drain? does not work.
Suffocation? does not work.
Level drain? does not work.
Making it listen to Taylor Swift covers? does not work.
Excuse me, but my Taylor Swift covers make people so angry they come back to life.