More unarmored AC


Homebrew and House Rules


Would it break the game if a Barbarians got CHA to AC while unarmored at 3rd or 4th level, for free? Or if Rogues could get this sort of thing with INT?


I think it would be fine, if they lose the armour feats, and can't gain the bonus while wearing any kind of armour (other than a shield) and it didn't stack with an armour bonus (like bracers of armour). Maybe just have the stat mod count as an armour bonus.


Scythia wrote:
I think it would be fine, if they lose the armour feats, and can't gain the bonus while wearing any kind of armour (other than a shield) and it didn't stack with an armour bonus (like bracers of armour). Maybe just have the stat mod count as an armour bonus.

I was thinking of having it more like the Monk's unarmored AC, where it provides a bonus to all AC, and doesn't work if you have a shield. It would probably be tied to full armor proficiency, so if you lose proficiency with any of your class's base armor abilities, you lose the bonus AC ability. It requires you to invest into a secondary stat that you might not otherwise put points into, so that feels like a fair trade for getting a bonus to touch and flatfooted AC. I'd be most worried about the Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue and the Savage Barbarian, since they both have a lot to gain and nothing to lose.

As for the armor bonus, to get a permanent buff, you'd need bracers, which puts you on par with Monks in terms of what you need to invest into AC, although without as many bonuses for investing into your secondary stat. I suppose a URogue could pick up Major Magic -> Mage Armor for most adventuring days, and maybe the Bookish Rogue feat to use Major Magic for other things.

I was thinking Charisma for Barbarians somewhere along the lines of Conan or Red Sonja, where you become terrifying enough that people stop really being able to hit you. Intelligence for Rogues, since Rogues are (supposed to be) clever and able to leverage their smarts well, especially in combat. Plus, it mildly incentives getting a good INT score, which means you can stay ahead of the Wizard in skill ranks for a bit longer.


Barbarians already get damage reduction, which makes more sense as them shrugging off pain.

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I'm not keen on just handing out ability score bonuses to AC. It's something that shouldn't come lightly. Heck, it even feels questionable on the oracle as it's one of the most powerful revelations among the mysteries.

I might allow a barbarian archetype that replaces all armor proficiencies with a dodge bonus to AC equal to their Charisma bonus.


My Self wrote:
Or if Rogues could get this sort of thing with INT?

Rogues can use Int to cast level 1 spells (major magic rogue talent) - if they want to pick up Shield or Mage Armor, they can. I prefer Vanish, though. Not being seen is more healthy than just being hard to hit.

There is a barbarian archetype for unarmored fighting: Savage barbarian. It trades trap sense for +1 .. +3 dodge AC (level 3 .. 17), but also and damage reduction for +1 .. +5 natural AC (level 7 .. 19). They should stack with clothing with enhancement bonus or armor bracers, resulting in a small AC plus over a basic barbarian. On the long run.


Cyrad wrote:

I'm not keen on just handing out ability score bonuses to AC. It's something that shouldn't come lightly. Heck, it even feels questionable on the oracle as it's one of the most powerful revelations among the mysteries.

I might allow a barbarian archetype that replaces all armor proficiencies with a dodge bonus to AC equal to their Charisma bonus.

I'm all for it if it is only Cha. Int and Wis are more powerful stats over Cha. Also depending on what Oracle revelation, you only get the bonus of it to one of the other things dex does, Initiative, CMD, and Reflex saves.


Your barbarian could just use a shield instead. With an enhancement bones, the bonus to AC would probably be higher than adding Charisma.

I'm really only in favor of giving the barbarian an ability mod AC bonus if It has some kind of mitigating factor.


My reasoning is that a moderately invested secondary stat + 1 AC/4 levels would be equivalent to medium armor (After you get past the early levels). Barbarian has a few more stat points to throw around, since it doesn't have to invest into stats to be as effective. Since it's a 3rd or 4th level thing, it's probably too painful for dedicated casters to dip into and scoot away with the benefits. I don't think Barbarians are going to turn into AC tanks, anyways, since it requires a lot more Charisma for a marginal gain (+10 movement speed if you don't have Mithral). An armored Barbarian with a good Dex and a Mithral breastplate could easily get the same AC, movement speed, and get a better Reflex save to boot. It's meant to be an alternative to armor or a shield. For Rogues, it's a buff to those who invest heavily in intelligence, but I see no problems there.

Instead of straight CHA or INT, maybe CHA +1 AC/4 levels and INT +1 AC/4 levels.

Honestly, a bunch of classes have a stat-to-AC option. Monk, Oracle, and Psychic get the option native to the class, while Paladin, Ranger, Magus, Warpriest, and Kineticist can easily grab it via an archetype. Swashbuckler and Antipaladin get touches of it, and Investigator (Spiritualist) can use it a bit.


My Self wrote:
Would it break the game if a Barbarians got CHA to AC while unarmored at 3rd or 4th level, for free? Or if Rogues could get this sort of thing with INT?

i would think that it would be con to ac instead of cha theres an archetype that adds con to ac already however its only while unarmored and raging you could modify it a bit also barbs in 5e also get con to ac when unarmored so it would be par for the course altho i would say that they would have to trade away a few things probably armor proficiency and trapfinding maybe?

Silver Crusade

The Berserker archetype from Flaming Crab Games lets the Barbarian add their CON to their AC when they're not wearing armor.

They also get a bit of Fast Healing and Fortification.


Rysky wrote:

The Berserker archetype from Flaming Crab Games lets the Barbarian add their CON to their AC when they're not wearing armor.

They also get a bit of Fast Healing and Fortification.

exept its only while raging and if their giving up armor the ac boost really should apply all the time while not wearing armor or helpless much like the monks ability


I like the 5e Barbarian CON AC, but 5e is a different system, and the way it handles AC and stats is different than 3e/Pathfinder.

I'm thinking CON would be a bad idea, since Barbarians will already be investing lots into CON. Barbarians are excellent health/DR-tanks, they don't need an easy AC boost as well. Looking at the Berserker, Rage + CON to AC while unarmored is not exactly a net-zero. While perhaps the no AC bonus while unarmored and not raging may be a setback, the benefits while raging become much larger. +6 and +8 CON upgrades while raging turn into +1 and +2 AC, respectively. Raging Vitality, a feat you were probably already going to take, not only boosts your HP and survivability while wounded, but it also gives you +1 AC, which makes it more valuable than it already is. +CON belts do triple duty- increasing your rage rounds, HP, and AC. Picking up Beast Totem (also probably already on your list) pushes your mid-level raging AC above that of a heavy-armor class, such as a Paladin. And you still have the option to grab a shield if you think things are getting too rough.

Silver Crusade

My Self wrote:

I like the 5e Barbarian CON AC, but 5e is a different system, and the way it handles AC and stats is different than 3e/Pathfinder.

I'm thinking CON would be a bad idea, since Barbarians will already be investing lots into CON. Barbarians are excellent health/DR-tanks, they don't need an easy AC boost as well. Looking at the Berserker, Rage + CON to AC while unarmored is not exactly a net-zero. While perhaps the no AC bonus while unarmored and not raging may be a setback, the benefits while raging become much larger. +6 and +8 CON upgrades while raging turn into +1 and +2 AC, respectively. Raging Vitality, a feat you were probably already going to take, not only boosts your HP and survivability while wounded, but it also gives you +1 AC, which makes it more valuable than it already is. +CON belts do triple duty- increasing your rage rounds, HP, and AC. Picking up Beast Totem (also probably already on your list) pushes your mid-level raging AC above that of a heavy-armor class, such as a Paladin. And you still have the option to grab a shield if you think things are getting too rough.

*nods*

Also note that you still take the -2 to AC for being in rage though.


Rysky wrote:
My Self wrote:

I like the 5e Barbarian CON AC, but 5e is a different system, and the way it handles AC and stats is different than 3e/Pathfinder.

I'm thinking CON would be a bad idea, since Barbarians will already be investing lots into CON. Barbarians are excellent health/DR-tanks, they don't need an easy AC boost as well. Looking at the Berserker, Rage + CON to AC while unarmored is not exactly a net-zero. While perhaps the no AC bonus while unarmored and not raging may be a setback, the benefits while raging become much larger. +6 and +8 CON upgrades while raging turn into +1 and +2 AC, respectively. Raging Vitality, a feat you were probably already going to take, not only boosts your HP and survivability while wounded, but it also gives you +1 AC, which makes it more valuable than it already is. +CON belts do triple duty- increasing your rage rounds, HP, and AC. Picking up Beast Totem (also probably already on your list) pushes your mid-level raging AC above that of a heavy-armor class, such as a Paladin. And you still have the option to grab a shield if you think things are getting too rough.

*nods*

Also note that you still take the -2 to AC for being in rage though.

Which cancels out at 1st level from the regular +4 CON rage boost, but it still gets boosts from the 11th and 20th level abilities. While raging at a high level, your AC should be better than that of an equivalent monk. +1 AC/4 levels from Beast Totem matches the Monk's bonus AC. +4 base CON and -2 AC from rage are a wash. Raging Vitality is better than Dodge, but a Monk will have more feats to burn, so that's a small point in the Monk's favor. However, the Barbarian gets +1 AC from +2 CON at 11th level, and another +1 AC at 20th. This, combined with the fact that the Barbarian can pick up shield with a feat, still only needs to invest in 3 stats (vs 4 for the monk), means the Barbarian is probably up on AC.

Silver Crusade

My Self wrote:
Rysky wrote:
My Self wrote:

I like the 5e Barbarian CON AC, but 5e is a different system, and the way it handles AC and stats is different than 3e/Pathfinder.

I'm thinking CON would be a bad idea, since Barbarians will already be investing lots into CON. Barbarians are excellent health/DR-tanks, they don't need an easy AC boost as well. Looking at the Berserker, Rage + CON to AC while unarmored is not exactly a net-zero. While perhaps the no AC bonus while unarmored and not raging may be a setback, the benefits while raging become much larger. +6 and +8 CON upgrades while raging turn into +1 and +2 AC, respectively. Raging Vitality, a feat you were probably already going to take, not only boosts your HP and survivability while wounded, but it also gives you +1 AC, which makes it more valuable than it already is. +CON belts do triple duty- increasing your rage rounds, HP, and AC. Picking up Beast Totem (also probably already on your list) pushes your mid-level raging AC above that of a heavy-armor class, such as a Paladin. And you still have the option to grab a shield if you think things are getting too rough.

*nods*

Also note that you still take the -2 to AC for being in rage though.

Which cancels out at 1st level from the regular +4 CON rage boost, but it still gets boosts from the 11th and 20th level abilities. While raging at a high level, your AC should be better than that of an equivalent monk. +1 AC/4 levels from Beast Totem matches the Monk's bonus AC. +4 base CON and -2 AC from rage are a wash. Raging Vitality is better than Dodge, but a Monk will have more feats to burn, so that's a point in the Monk's favor. However, the Barbarian gets +1 AC from +2 CON at 11th level, and another +1 AC at 20th. This, combined with the fact that the Barbarian still has a shield, still only needs to invest in 3 stats (vs 4 for the monk), means the Barbarian is probably up on AC.

I'm not all that disagreeing with you, I was just pointing that out for completion's sake.


Rysky wrote:
My Self wrote:
Rysky wrote:
My Self wrote:

I like the 5e Barbarian CON AC, but 5e is a different system, and the way it handles AC and stats is different than 3e/Pathfinder.

I'm thinking CON would be a bad idea, since Barbarians will already be investing lots into CON. Barbarians are excellent health/DR-tanks, they don't need an easy AC boost as well. Looking at the Berserker, Rage + CON to AC while unarmored is not exactly a net-zero. While perhaps the no AC bonus while unarmored and not raging may be a setback, the benefits while raging become much larger. +6 and +8 CON upgrades while raging turn into +1 and +2 AC, respectively. Raging Vitality, a feat you were probably already going to take, not only boosts your HP and survivability while wounded, but it also gives you +1 AC, which makes it more valuable than it already is. +CON belts do triple duty- increasing your rage rounds, HP, and AC. Picking up Beast Totem (also probably already on your list) pushes your mid-level raging AC above that of a heavy-armor class, such as a Paladin. And you still have the option to grab a shield if you think things are getting too rough.

*nods*

Also note that you still take the -2 to AC for being in rage though.

Which cancels out at 1st level from the regular +4 CON rage boost, but it still gets boosts from the 11th and 20th level abilities. While raging at a high level, your AC should be better than that of an equivalent monk. +1 AC/4 levels from Beast Totem matches the Monk's bonus AC. +4 base CON and -2 AC from rage are a wash. Raging Vitality is better than Dodge, but a Monk will have more feats to burn, so that's a point in the Monk's favor. However, the Barbarian gets +1 AC from +2 CON at 11th level, and another +1 AC at 20th. This, combined with the fact that the Barbarian still has a shield, still only needs to invest in 3 stats (vs 4 for the monk), means the Barbarian is probably up on AC.
My apologies if that came across as disagreeing with you, I was just posting that...

It didn't come across as a disagreement, I was just looking for somewhere to spout a bunch of mathfinder.

Silver Crusade

My Self wrote:
Rysky wrote:
My Self wrote:
Rysky wrote:
My Self wrote:

I like the 5e Barbarian CON AC, but 5e is a different system, and the way it handles AC and stats is different than 3e/Pathfinder.

I'm thinking CON would be a bad idea, since Barbarians will already be investing lots into CON. Barbarians are excellent health/DR-tanks, they don't need an easy AC boost as well. Looking at the Berserker, Rage + CON to AC while unarmored is not exactly a net-zero. While perhaps the no AC bonus while unarmored and not raging may be a setback, the benefits while raging become much larger. +6 and +8 CON upgrades while raging turn into +1 and +2 AC, respectively. Raging Vitality, a feat you were probably already going to take, not only boosts your HP and survivability while wounded, but it also gives you +1 AC, which makes it more valuable than it already is. +CON belts do triple duty- increasing your rage rounds, HP, and AC. Picking up Beast Totem (also probably already on your list) pushes your mid-level raging AC above that of a heavy-armor class, such as a Paladin. And you still have the option to grab a shield if you think things are getting too rough.

*nods*

Also note that you still take the -2 to AC for being in rage though.

Which cancels out at 1st level from the regular +4 CON rage boost, but it still gets boosts from the 11th and 20th level abilities. While raging at a high level, your AC should be better than that of an equivalent monk. +1 AC/4 levels from Beast Totem matches the Monk's bonus AC. +4 base CON and -2 AC from rage are a wash. Raging Vitality is better than Dodge, but a Monk will have more feats to burn, so that's a point in the Monk's favor. However, the Barbarian gets +1 AC from +2 CON at 11th level, and another +1 AC at 20th. This, combined with the fact that the Barbarian still has a shield, still only needs to invest in 3 stats (vs 4 for the monk), means the Barbarian is probably up on AC.
My apologies if that came across as disagreeing with you, I
...

:3

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