Kobold Cleaver DESTROYS the Big Six!

[Kobold Catgirl]

[to aide] You really think this 'clickbait' thing will work? Aah, the bastards will never buy it. Then again, they might. [pause] Is this thing on?

Hey, all! We've talked about this a fair bit already, I know, but I'm working on a campaign and I want to be rid of the Big Six, once and for all. But first, some quick background:

What it is: The Big Six encompasses six different item types that everyone, especially the martial character, is forced to lean on.
Magic Weapon
Magic Armor/Shield
Amulet of Natural Armor
Ring of Protection
Cloak of Resistance
Stat-Enhancing Items

Why I hate it: I want to run a campaign where magic items are rare and unique. It bothers me that I have to give PCs those six items "free" to maintain balance. That'll total to about thirty magic items in the party at least. Worse still, they'll all be fairly similar. That's not rare. It's not unique. This isn't a pressing concern, but it's something I would like to address, at least a little bit.

My goal: I don't need to get rid of all six. Magic weapons, for instance, can stay the same—it helps that only the martials even need them. They'll still be hard to find and impossible to purchase, but I can drop them into special encounters, perhaps asking players for feedback on what sorts of weapons and enchantments they would like and then rolling to see how "good" the item they get is (so, if they rank "Flaming Guisarme" on a scale from 1-6 as being max priority, and I roll double sixes, they would get it).

But some of these definitely have to go, or be folded together. Natural armor, for instance, is way too narrow a benefit. I would rather give a PC one extra-special item that boosts Armor Class by +7 than give them an amulet of natural armor, a ring of protection, and +1 studded leather armor.

I would rather magic items be earned, not obligatory.

How I'ma fix it:

Weapons
Weapons will be left more-or-less alone, as mentioned above. I'll provide them weapon enhancements and new weapons as-needed. No problem. That will remain an obligation of the GM to provide.

Rings, Amulets and Armor
The AC items are trickier. What is the average AC increase over levels? Let's go by WBL and Big Six here, ignoring ability score increases, classes, and feats. This is largely ignoring arcane casters. My math is in the spoiler below.

In total, your AC increases by about +15 from the "Big Three". I could adjust for this with simple penalties to monster attacks, or give a "Base AC increase" that people get automatically (perhaps I make them choose between Dodge, Armor and Deflection for the bonus type—the latter can be dispelled, and might be slightly smaller). Or I could just allow them to find a bunch of super-AC-boosting items, one for each PC. Thoughts?

Stat Increases
This seems to have the simplest solution. Just buff the ability score increases, like in 5E. You get a +2 at fourth level, another +2 at 8th level, and so on. Ability score-boosting items might still show up, of course, but they'll be rare magic items, not a necessity. Again, thoughts?

Cloak of Resistance
Can I just boost the base saves for this? Maybe an extra +1 to everything every third level?

AC Increases by Level:

2nd-4th: About a +3. You have 1-6k to buy three +1 increases that each cost about 2k, between armor enhancement, ring, and amulet. I averaged it up because this is also a time to buy better armor, like mithral chain shirts and full plate. Also, shields, for some PCs.

5th-9th: About a +2. You have 10-46k, with roughly the same cost for each of the three. I averaged it down because you have to worry about weapons and cloaks and stuff now.

10th-15th: About a +7. At this point, you have 62-240k, and all the items start to become maxable.

16th-20th: About a +3. You've basically maxed out your Big Six.
Does anyone have any corrections here?

I know everyone is tired of these threads. So am I. But I'd really appreciate the community's feedback.

[My Self]

This will make spells more powerful buffs. Potions of Bull's Strength will still be useful at higher levels, since it seems like the boosts will stack.

Ability score stat increases will need some sort of limiter. Since you get +2 every 4 levels, you'll have +10 at 20th level. For a Wizard, that's all going to go into INT. It rewards SAD casters and penalizes MAD casters and martials. Unlike magic items, which are cheaper for stats you haven't invested as much in, straight stat boosts are just as free for really buffed stats as for secondary stats. Perhaps a choice of +3, split among 3 stats, or +2 into 1 stat?

By the endgame, a Martial will probably be rocking a +6 physical belt. A caster will probably have a +6 headband to at least one mental stat, and a +6 belt to two physical stats. Some MAD characters will likely have +6 to 4 stats, such as Monks, Paladins, Magi, and Clerics. All in all, it will probably be +18 to +24 in stat buffs. +2 every 4 levels doesn't get close. Most characters will get about 23-29 worth of stat boosts, including the regular +5 from leveling. So if there was a way to split 26 or so evenly among 20 levels or fewer...

For AC, maybe a 3:2 Armor/Dodge to Deflection exchange? So you get your Armor or Dodge bonuses faster than Deflection bonuses.

Just wondering- for weapons, why not make it so the players automatically get the +x, and the GM provides weapons with special abilities? This could also apply to unarmed strikes easily.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Good points all around.

I'm not sure I have a problem with ability buffs becoming more powerful. Potions won't be purchasable, though some characters might learn to brew them in light of the increase in usefulness. I say I'm not worried—should I be?

[Tyinyk]

I believe the Automatic Bonus Progression rules were introduced for this very purpose.

[Bandw2]

i prefer how the rules >here< run WBL(ctrl+f for mojo), it changes them to mojo and abolishes items being tied to a slot, basically you can choose if you yourself simply gain the quality, or an item in your possession gains power from some undefined source that should be defined Ic, such as a paladin's weapon being powered by their god.

This way you can make excalibur for instance, and have your sword give you the benefits of ring of regeneration, etc.

[Kalridian]

Yep, and they wor just fine as far as my experience in a recent shipwreck/survival campaign has shown.

Edit:
Kind of Ninja'd.
I was referring to the Automatic Bonus Progression from Tyinyk's post, Bandw2 shamelessly slipped in between.

[master_marshmallow]

I have found that high powered characters tend to care less about big six items and focus more on class boosting items like Gloves of Dueling etc.

Giving ample time for prebuffing makes the main two defensive magic items, the ring and the amulet, less of an issue when spells like Shield of Faith and Barkskin are available to the party. I'm all for a 'better' system which nixes these in favor of a single "magic bonus" and leaves natural armor to be just that, but perhaps giving better ways to enhance it on its own, and have it act in place of armor for characters/monsters who don't use regular armor. An if/or scenario (5e does this, and it's one of the few things I like about it).

I really like the idea of numerical enhancement bonus tied to weapons and armor being melded into the quality of the mastercraft, rather than a magical amplification. As in, a high level blacksmith can make a +5 sword completely out of mundane means, represented by the ranks in the skill. Pricing would work on two different axes, with only one being magical. Nonmagical masterwork weapons even have a +1 enhancement bonus to hit so it's not that far off from already existing. I also think the +n on armor should apply to check penalties but that's just me.

All of that being said, nothing is going to stop a player from wanting to spend his hard earned gp on improving character effectiveness, its an inevitable part of the game. Sure, this intelligent flaming sword that knows the entire history of elven art is cool, but worthless to me if I can't hit anything with it (perhaps due to a character build, perhaps due to the CR system, doesn't matter if that's what the player wants).

[Kazaan]

The major thing to keep in mind is that the CRs for encounters are predicated on the notion that players will be getting those "big six" items. If you simply remove them without compensating monster difficulty, then you've simply gone from an "automatic advantage to players" to an "automatic disadvantage to players". So, if you don't want players to feel "obligated" to get the Big Six and you don't want to use a "baked in" method, you'll need to drop the capacity of each and every monster they face in order to maintain a semblance of balance; otherwise you're just screwing the players over by artificially lowering their relative power around which the entire game is balanced.

[master_marshmallow]

Kazaan wrote:

The major thing to keep in mind is that the CRs for encounters are predicated on the notion that players will be getting those "big six" items. If you simply remove them without compensating monster difficulty, then you've simply gone from an "automatic advantage to players" to an "automatic disadvantage to players". So, if you don't want players to feel "obligated" to get the Big Six and you don't want to use a "baked in" method, you'll need to drop the capacity of each and every monster they face in order to maintain a semblance of balance; otherwise you're just screwing the players over by artificially lowering their relative power around which the entire game is balanced.

Raise the floor, give better stats at character creation, and deal with the ramifications of this at lower levels. Honestly this works better than you think.

[Bandw2]

Kalridian wrote:

Yep, and they wor just fine as far as my experience in a recent shipwreck/survival campaign has shown.

Edit:
Kind of Ninja'd.
I was referring to the Automatic Bonus Progression from Tyinyk's post, Bandw2 shamelessly slipped in between.

I could be shameful, i ruined the flow of conversation.

[kyrt-ryder]

Simplest option resembles Mojo, but leaves the 'economy' semi-intact, using WBL instead of the treasure creatures drop.

Every level characters are able to assign bonuses to their person using their WBL as desired. Leave Item Slots open to character selection [so one fill the 'ring slot' with a strength booster at the same cost as a belt] and treat these as Extraordinary except in cases where the ability is obviously magical [like teleportation.]

Weapon bonuses apply each attack a character uses except when 2wf or using Natural Attacks, in those cases reduce the enhancement bonus by 1 [which may result in +0 magic weapons, which is OK.]

[Kobold Catgirl]

Bandw2 wrote:

i prefer how the rules >here< run WBL(ctrl+f for mojo), it changes them to mojo and abolishes items being tied to a slot, basically you can choose if you yourself simply gain the quality, or an item in your possession gains power from some undefined source that should be defined Ic, such as a paladin's weapon being powered by their god.

This way you can make excalibur for instance, and have your sword give you the benefits of ring of regeneration, etc.

My problem with Mojo is that it's great for handling WBL problems and absolutely useless for handling the setting issues. I don't want the players to be able to choose what magic items they get. That would present the exact same problems.

I might adopt Automatic Bonus Progression for saves and ability scores, at least.

master_marshmallow wrote:

All of that being said, nothing is going to stop a player from wanting to spend his hard earned gp on improving character effectiveness, its an inevitable part of the game. Sure, this intelligent flaming sword that knows the entire history of elven art is cool, but worthless to me if I can't hit anything with it (perhaps due to a character build, perhaps due to the CR system, doesn't matter if that's what the player wants).

Kazaan wrote:

The major thing to keep in mind is that the CRs for encounters are predicated on the notion that players will be getting those "big six" items. If you simply remove them without compensating monster difficulty, then you've simply gone from an "automatic advantage to players" to an "automatic disadvantage to players". So, if you don't want players to feel "obligated" to get the Big Six and you don't want to use a "baked in" method, you'll need to drop the capacity of each and every monster they face in order to maintain a semblance of balance; otherwise you're just screwing the players over by artificially lowering their relative power around which the entire game is balanced.

I feel like these two posts were made without really reading the OP. I addressed all this. There are no magic item shops for them to spend that "hard earned gp" on. And adding in a balancing mechanic is the entire point of this thread.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Again, I'm pretty sure I'll be keeping at least a Big One—magic weapons will be found on adventures, or acquired via a Mojo-like mechanic.

[kyrt-ryder]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

i prefer how the rules >here< run WBL(ctrl+f for mojo), it changes them to mojo and abolishes items being tied to a slot, basically you can choose if you yourself simply gain the quality, or an item in your possession gains power from some undefined source that should be defined Ic, such as a paladin's weapon being powered by their god.

This way you can make excalibur for instance, and have your sword give you the benefits of ring of regeneration, etc.

My problem with Mojo is that it's great for handling WBL problems and absolutely useless for handling the setting issues. I don't want the players to be able to choose what magic items they get. That would present the exact same problems.

Mojo doesn't require that you allow any magic weapons. You can make everything innate.

You can even hand out awesome magical gear that's rare and legendary... and consumes perhaps 80% of the Mojo it ordinarily would, granting incentive to use [and learn to use if need-be] the item in question rather than toss it to continue personal development.

And if you have a character who WANTS to focus on personal development? By all means please let them, it's just one fewer special items you need to make and more rare they can be in your world.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I dislike the idea that a magic item given to the party—a wondrous, rare find—might be cast aside because they're "unable" to use it. It feels clunky for the setting I have in mind.

Basically, if people can get whatever magic item effects they want for free, actual magic items become a little less distinctive. Reducing Mojo cost doesn't really change that. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great rule, but I don't think it fits my game.

Does anybody else have any thoughts on the ideas I presented? I've noticed that the House Rules threads tend to get really swamped in "Well, those rules you posted are whatever, but here are some rules I like..." posts, which are helpful, but not all I'm shooting for here.

[Bandw2]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

i prefer how the rules >here< run WBL(ctrl+f for mojo), it changes them to mojo and abolishes items being tied to a slot, basically you can choose if you yourself simply gain the quality, or an item in your possession gains power from some undefined source that should be defined Ic, such as a paladin's weapon being powered by their god.

This way you can make excalibur for instance, and have your sword give you the benefits of ring of regeneration, etc.

My problem with Mojo is that it's great for handling WBL problems and absolutely useless for handling the setting issues. I don't want the players to be able to choose what magic items they get. That would present the exact same problems.

I might adopt Automatic Bonus Progression for saves and ability scores, at least.

not really though, since the effects can just be inherently part of them. This is only an issue if you want to entirely remove magic, giving them innate bonuses via automatic bonus progression might not be all that useful if a player wants a specific ability from a magic item.

example: swift runner shirt... you're just really mobile in combat as your fighting style.

Mojo just assumes the PCs are inherently powerful enough for their level. If you want a low magic campaign the best option is to stay below level 5(this is specifically referring to when not using mojo), as this works out in every respect, even when dealing with magic users.

the game doesn't assume they need the big 6 if they're only level 3.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Basically, if people can get whatever magic item effects they want "innately", actual magic items become a little less distinctive. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great rule, but I don't think it fits my game.

Also, never said low-magic. I said magic items are unique and rare. Don't you see that if magic item effects become readily available, the items kinda themselves stop being unique?

[Bandw2]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Does anybody else have any thoughts on the ideas I presented? I've noticed that the House Rules threads tend to get really swamped in "Well, those rules you posted are whatever, but here are some rules I like..." posts, which are helpful, but not all I'm shooting for here.

this in general is because new rules always seem more complicated than what you're already used to. So the only thing I can say is because they're new I can't see how accurate they are unless i used them for a bit and I don't know how certain things might interact.

you're suggesting flat increases instead of magic items, which probably works, but I tend to buy more exotic stuff and only use my remainder stuff for the big six, so this limits my build freedom and makes me want, as a gut reaction, to build conservatively(aka, munchikin).

Like I said, the simplest and easiest way to make magic items really cool and keep the need for the big six gone is to stay low level.

[Goth Guru]

If there is no "X" for PCs, there is no "X" for monsters.
Your method seems sound.
Ogres are already built with stat bonuses, so they don't get the level boost.

[rainzax]

Here is how I do it. The party just advanced to 3rd level so it is "beginning" in a way, but I have been explicit with the house rules since the beginning.

Automatic Bonuses (adapted from the Unchained rules):

at 3rd, and every 4 levels after, they get a +1 resistance bonus to all saving throws
at 4th, and every 4 levels after, they a +1 natural armor and +1 deflection bonus to AC
at 5th, and every 4 levels after, they may enhance* a physical/mental (choose) ability score
at 6th, and every 4 levels after, they may enhance* the other type of ability score

Spoiler:

*"Enhance" starts with +2, then improves to either +4 or +2/+2/+2, then improves again to either +6/+2 or +4/+4/+2, finally improving to (my campaign will not go this far didn't bother to do the maths)

Weapons and Armor

Are priced by their "capacity" (think: maximum bonus) with in-game names (to do away with the "you found a +1 sword" language) never-the-less scaled: "Magic" (+1), "Heroic" (+2), "Paragon" (+3), "Legendary" (+4), and "Epic" (+5).

Characters with sufficient levels can gain the benefit up to the maximum capacity of the item they are wielding or wearing plus any special abilities (like "Flaming") with corresponding names as magic items are described and priced: "Adventurer" (1st-4th), "Hero" (5th-8th), "Paragon" (9th-12th), "Legend" (13th-16th), and "Epic" (17th+).

Example

A 4th level character gains the first two benefits (to saves and AC) and is described as an "Adventurer" - if she picks up a "Heroic Flaming Sword" it functions like a +1 flaming sword for her until she becomes 5th level - a "Hero" - at which point her experience tier matches the capacity of the sword and it functions as a +2 flaming sword. If she sells the sword, it goes on market as a +3 sword (capacity +2 plus flaming).

Hope that helps. Cheers.

[JosMartigan]

So focusing just on AC, is there an issue with offering a flat bonus like 4th edition did by giving 1/2 level to AC? Wouldn't that cover some of the issue of having to dole out protection and armor bonus items. Can the rest of it be covered by feats or traits?

Or what about the Unearthed Arcana unarmored defense adjustment? It's different for each category of classes so the final numbers are (supposedly) appropriate for gish, martial, caster, controller, etc.

And would some form of armor as DR be helpful here also? Giving armor bonuses plus DR per armor type maybe?

I'm very interested in this as well since I prefer lower magic games and love to emulate genres such as sword and sorcery where warriors are unarmored or settings like Wheel of Time where none of the main characters ever seemed to wear armor.

[johnlocke90]

We already have automatic bonus progression. What benefit does your system provide over that?

[rainzax]

johnlocke90 wrote:

We already have automatic bonus progression. What benefit does your system provide over that?

ABP is a great solution to a common problem. Other solutions are possible. Hence thread.

[Odraude]

Magic crafters HATE Kobold Cleaver.

See which items are the Big 6. #4 will shock you!

[Bardarok]

JosMartigan wrote:

So focusing just on AC, is there an issue with offering a flat bonus like 4th edition did by giving 1/2 level to AC? Wouldn't that cover some of the issue of having to dole out protection and armor bonus items. Can the rest of it be covered by feats or traits?

Or what about the Unearthed Arcana unarmored defense adjustment? It's different for each category of classes so the final numbers are (supposedly) appropriate for gish, martial, caster, controller, etc.

And would some form of armor as DR be helpful here also? Giving armor bonuses plus DR per armor type maybe?

I'm very interested in this as well since I prefer lower magic games and love to emulate genres such as sword and sorcery where warriors are unarmored or settings like Wheel of Time where none of the main characters ever seemed to wear armor.

This is exactly what I tried with my latest game. We are only a few months in and only level 6, but so far it has worked well for us. I also used an alternate save progression, 1/2 lvl for bad saves, 3/4 lvl +1 for good saves, but still provide weapons.

[137ben]

Have you seen Grod's Chopping Down the Christmas Tree? It's written for 3.5, and it does quite a bit more than what you have done. I still think it is worth a read for people who are serious about messing with magic items and WBL. It covers a lot of the holes that are missed by some half-hearted attempts at removing the big six (*cough Automatic Bonus Progression cough*).

I still need time to fully digest your proposal, KC. Gimme a bit to come up with a full response:)

[Lady-J]

you could flat out ban casters that would make martials not need magic items as much to be competative or allow casters and ban magic items for every one and give the matials the vow of poverty from 3.5 exept that they would be allowed to have material posetions

[My Self]

What if different classes had different stat boost progressions? Somewhat similar to differing class BAB. So there would be a "slow", "average", "fast", and "special" stat boost progression. Classes with a "slow" progression would get the fewest stat boosts, but would probably be fairly SAD classes (Arcane fullcasters). Classes with an "average" progression would get a decent number of boosts, and would be second-liner type classes (Probably 3/4 BAB classes). Classes with a "fast" progression would get a higher number of boosts, and would likely be full BAB frontliners. Classes with a "special" progression would be the ones that need help: Fighter, Rogue, Monk, and UMonk.

Stat boosts from leveling would be capped at 1+1/2 level in each stat, maxing out at 11 at 20th level.

A possible (though maybe not the best?) way to distribute this could be as follows: Every level, you get +1 to a stat. "average" progression classes get an additional +1 at every 4th level as well (1.25/level). "fast" progression classes get the extra +1 at every other level (effectively 1.5/level). "special" progression classes get the extra +1 at 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, etc. (1.75/level)

Tables:

Stat boosts per level
lvl -- slow - avg - fast - spec
1st -- +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +1
2nd - +1 __ +1 __ +2 __ +2
3rd -- +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +2
4th -- +1 __ +2 __ +2 __ +2
5th -- +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +1
6th -- +1 __ +1 __ +2 __ +2
7th -- +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +2
8th -- +1 __ +2 __ +2 __ +2
9th -- +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +1
10th - +1 __ +1 __ +2 __ +2
11th - +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +2
12th - +1 __ +2 __ +2 __ +2
13th - +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +1
14th - +1 __ +1 __ +2 __ +2
15th - +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +2
16th - +1 __ +2 __ +2 __ +2
17th - +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +1
18th - +1 __ +1 __ +2 __ +2
19th - +1 __ +1 __ +1 __ +2
20th - +1 __ +2 __ +2 __ +2

Stat boost total
lvl --- slow - avg - fast - spec
1st ---- 1 ___ 1 ___ 1 ___ 1
2nd --- 2 ___ 2 ___ 3 ___ 3
3rd ---- 3 ___ 3 ___ 4 ___ 5
4th ---- 4 ___ 5 ___ 6 ___ 7
5th ---- 5 ___ 6 ___ 7 ___ 8
6th ---- 6 ___ 7 ___ 9 __ 10
7th ---- 7 ___ 8 __ 10 __ 12
8th ---- 8 __ 10 __ 12 __ 14
9th ---- 9 __ 11 __ 13 __ 15
10th - 10 __ 12 __ 15 __ 17
11th - 11 __ 13 __ 16 __ 19
12th - 12 __ 15 __ 18 __ 21
13th - 13 __ 16 __ 19 __ 22
14th - 14 __ 17 __ 21 __ 24
15th - 15 __ 18 __ 22 __ 26
16th - 16 __ 20 __ 24 __ 28
17th - 17 __ 21 __ 25 __ 29
18th - 18 __ 22 __ 27 __ 31
19th - 19 __ 23 __ 28 __ 33
20th - 20 __ 25 __ 30 __ 35

[Kobold Catgirl]

Alright, so in summary, I think I'm going to go with Automatic Bonus Progression, as a simple, easily-applied ruleset. I might, however, keep the rules I was considering for Armor Class—I like the idea of players getting three options to consider. If I offer the choice of "enhanced armor/shield, Dodge bonus, or deflection", what bonuses do you think should be granted?

[Goth Guru]

My idea was to provide a not stacking with items bonus every other level. The player or GM chooses the ability, AC, or Hit/Damage that it applies to. Last time I told anyone about this someone linked me to the unchanged version, which I found woefully regid. Like I said, the OPs version is fine.

[johnlocke90]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Alright, so in summary, I think I'm going to go with Automatic Bonus Progression, as a simple, easily-applied ruleset. I might, however, keep the rules I was considering for Armor Class—I like the idea of players getting three options to consider. If I offer the choice of "enhanced armor/shield, Dodge bonus, or deflection", what bonuses do you think should be granted?

If I was a player I would always take dodge bonus. It stacks with everything and benefits my touch AC.

[captain yesterday]

Question 1: What did the Big Six ever do to you.

Question 2: What the f#** is the Big Six.

Question 3: Can I join.

Question 4: I'm not going to be hazed if I do join, will I.

[Lady-J]

captain yesterday wrote:

Question 1: What did the Big Six ever do to you.

Question 2: What the f*@! is the Big Six.

Question 3: Can I join.

Question 4: I'm not going to be hazed if I do join, will I.

its the 2nd paragraph of his post

1.Magic Weapon
2.Magic Armor/Shield
3.Amulet of Natural Armor
4.Ring of Protection
5.Cloak of Resistance
6.Stat-Enhancing Items

[Cap Yesterday, Compulsive FAQer]

I'm going to have to FAQ that, just to be sure.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Bandw2 wrote:

i prefer how the rules >here< run WBL(ctrl+f for mojo), it changes them to mojo and abolishes items being tied to a slot, basically you can choose if you yourself simply gain the quality, or an item in your possession gains power from some undefined source that should be defined Ic, such as a paladin's weapon being powered by their god.

This way you can make excalibur for instance, and have your sword give you the benefits of ring of regeneration, etc.

Actually if you're going for that particular trope, it was Excalibur's scabbard, not the sword itself that prevented open wounds on Arthur. Morgan Le Fay had it stolen before Arthur had his fateful meeting with Modred.

[Kobold Catgirl]

johnlocke90 wrote:

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Alright, so in summary, I think I'm going to go with Automatic Bonus Progression, as a simple, easily-applied ruleset. I might, however, keep the rules I was considering for Armor Class—I like the idea of players getting three options to consider. If I offer the choice of "enhanced armor/shield, Dodge bonus, or deflection", what bonuses do you think should be granted?

If I was a player I would always take dodge bonus. It stacks with everything and benefits my touch AC.

"Stacks with everything" makes no difference—so does armor enhancement, since you won't be able to buy magic armor or anything. I suppose it doesn't stack with Mage Armor, but that'll still only be a backup for people who can't wear armor, like monks and wizards. And armor benefits your flat-footed AC, which can be important, since a Surprise Round is a very vulnerable time for a PC.

I expect some players would favor the armor bonus and some would favor the dodge bonus and they would each encounter scenarios where they regretted it. Which is really as much "balance" as I would ever need.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

i prefer how the rules >here< run WBL(ctrl+f for mojo), it changes them to mojo and abolishes items being tied to a slot, basically you can choose if you yourself simply gain the quality, or an item in your possession gains power from some undefined source that should be defined Ic, such as a paladin's weapon being powered by their god.

This way you can make excalibur for instance, and have your sword give you the benefits of ring of regeneration, etc.

Actually if you're going for that particular trope, it was Excalibur's scabbard, not the sword itself that prevented open wounds on Arthur. Morgan Le Fay had it stolen before Arthur had his fateful meeting with Modred.

Actually, if you're going for that particular trope, it was a rust monster, not theft.

[Snowblind]

Am I missing something, or is the correct option to pick a Deflection Bonus every time? It is the only bonus that applies to both flat-footed and touch AC.

[Kobold Catgirl]

That's why I said Deflection would have a slightly lower bonus. You get that versatility, but you also lose some numbers. I think I was planning on a +6 Armor/+6 Dodge/+4 Deflection sort of ratio. Of course, the Deflection could also be temporarily dispelled, offering another small potential chink.

[kyrt-ryder]

Don't do dispelling deflection. A monk's bonus AC is almost deflection (disabled ONLY when Helpless) and it doesn't dispel.

Antimagic maybe, but not dispel.

[Lady-J]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Don't do dispelling deflection. A monk's bonus AC is almost deflection (disabled ONLY when Helpless) and it doesn't dispel.

Antimagic maybe, but not dispel.

monks ac bonus is ex so anti magic immune

[kyrt-ryder]

I know that. KC is looking for counterbalances to the (already weaker) more versatile deflection bonus.

Antimagic is a compromise, but one I would prefer he didn"t make.

[Lady-J]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I know that. KC is looking for counterbalances to the (already weaker) more versatile deflection bonus.

Antimagic is a compromise, but one I would prefer he didn"t make.

if im interpreting what he is trying to say correctly he wants to grant people buffs via natural progression from leveling up instead of magic items. so going off that interpretation i would say since they are getting thos buffs from natural progression there should be 0 counters to them anti magic field or not.

[kyrt-ryder]

I agree but see his last post.

[Umbral Reaver]

Umbral Reaver DESTROYS the Big Six!

Sunder!
Disintegrate!
Rust Monsters!

And that obscure rule where your items blow up if you roll a 1 on a save!

[Lady-J]

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Umbral Reaver DESTROYS the Big Six!

Sunder!
Disintegrate!
Rust Monsters!

And that obscure rule where your items blow up if you roll a 1 on a save!

sounds like a job for a scaled fist unchained monk/paladin hybrid with the 3.5 vow of poverty

[Sissyl]

Replace all armour thingies by one slot for a bangle. All worn nonarmour items become one slot for accessories. Then increase the size of the weapons.

[Garbage-Tier Waifu]

I want many bangles. This alone will suffice, KC. Who needs stats and bonuses when I have BANGLES and THE MOST BANGLES. Banglefinder?

[Goth Guru]

Let's pretend for a moment I don't know what you mean by a bangle.