Inhaled Poisons: are they splash weapons?


Rules Questions


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

There is no clear definition about how inhaled poisons are delivered.

Could you clarify if an unmodified flask of inhaled poison can be used as a splash weapon? If not: can they be thrown by any other means?


UE wrote:

Poisoned Sand Tube

Price 1 gp
Type martial
Resembling a slim scroll case made of bamboo or metal, this tube is filled with fine sand that is soaked or coated with inhaled or contact poison. When loaded with 3 doses of these types of poison, you can blow into the tube to disperse the poisoned sand into your enemies' faces in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in the cone is affected as if afflicted with 1 dose of the poison. Even when loaded with unpoisoned sand, the tube lets loose a powerful irritant, and an opponent struck must succeed at a DC 12 Fortitude saving throw or be dazzled for 1 round. Once expended, the tube must be repacked before it can be used again. Repacking a tube requires a full-round action, or a standard action if you have the Rapid Reload feat.

Sneezing Powder
Price 60 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
This coarse yellowish-red powder is a splash weapon that causes uncontrollable sneezing for 1d4+1 rounds. Anyone standing in the square of impact must succeed at a DC 12 Fortitude save to resist the powder, while those in adjacent squares must make DC 8 Fortitude saves. Creatures affected by sneezing powder must make a DC 10 Fortitude save every round for the duration or be staggered until their next turn. This is a poison effect. Crafting this item is a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check.


Dr Styx wrote:
UE wrote:

Poisoned Sand Tube

Price 1 gp
Type martial
Resembling a slim scroll case made of bamboo or metal, this tube is filled with fine sand that is soaked or coated with inhaled or contact poison. When loaded with 3 doses of these types of poison, you can blow into the tube to disperse the poisoned sand into your enemies' faces in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in the cone is affected as if afflicted with 1 dose of the poison. Even when loaded with unpoisoned sand, the tube lets loose a powerful irritant, and an opponent struck must succeed at a DC 12 Fortitude saving throw or be dazzled for 1 round. Once expended, the tube must be repacked before it can be used again. Repacking a tube requires a full-round action, or a standard action if you have the Rapid Reload feat.

Sneezing Powder
Price 60 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
This coarse yellowish-red powder is a splash weapon that causes uncontrollable sneezing for 1d4+1 rounds. Anyone standing in the square of impact must succeed at a DC 12 Fortitude save to resist the powder, while those in adjacent squares must make DC 8 Fortitude saves. Creatures affected by sneezing powder must make a DC 10 Fortitude save every round for the duration or be staggered until their next turn. This is a poison effect. Crafting this item is a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check.

This does not answer the question. Poison Sand Tube changes the area of effect (from splash to 15-ft cone). The sneezing powder has nothing to do with this.


there isn't really a direct ruling that i've ever found. Except that most "dust" like things take up 5ft square. some of them take up more per dose but that isn't consistent. Sadly there isn't really a rule clearly writen

Though it very much isn't a splash weapon. If anything it is more related to the smoke items. or AoE items.


As far as I know there is nothing official, but I would say inhaled poisons are not splash weapons.


To expand on my thought. Splash weapons directly deal some sort of damage when they are thrown. Inhaled poisons aren't splash weapons because they don't really cause damage like a flask of alchemist's fire does.


Poisons are not weapons.

But logically, a dose of inhale poison could theoretically be thrown and be spread out in a 10 by 10 ft area (assuming the container breaks on impact). The "Throw Anything" feat should cover you (but you don't add Int to any damage, since it's not a weapon).
How a 10 by 10 ft cloud of poison can be stored within a glass bottle is another story.


If the question is more about "Should I use the rules for thrown/splash weapons to determine what happens when I chuck a vial of inhaled poison?"

Then I would say the answer to that question is yes.

But for things that add bonuses to damage with splash weapons I would say no. But if it just to attack rolls, or removing non-proficiency for making the attack that's probably fine.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The question is: "can I throw the vial at some target (creature or intersectin) so that it cracks open and forms a 10 cubic feet poison cloud with the given effect?". The next question would be "which bonusses do I receive?" (this is obvious for me, since it is a thrown weapon that cracks open and has an area of effect, it is a splash weapon that does not deal any damage) followed by "which range increments does such a flask have?", concluded by the last question "how long does such a poison cloud linger?". The first three questions are interlocked, they cannot be answered independetely and must be answered as a whole (eiter they are ranged weapons, need a clear definition of attack bonus and a range increment or they are not). The fourth question I asked in a separate thread since this is important for poison traps as well and can be answered indepentently.

These questions are somewhat of importance regarding balance when you take a look at the Alchemist class (who gets Throw Anything from the get-go), as well as the Poison Conversion discovery. This makes some cheap poisons really powerful, e.g. Drow Poison. Especially if you consider that a lingering poison can stack with itself if the target stays within the cloud for multiple rounds or multiple flasks are thrown at once.


Since flasks of acid and alchemist's fire break when thrown, I suppose a vial containing poison should break as well.

Yes, you can throw a vial at "some target" (target area or creature) and the inhale poison should spread into a 10 by 10 area. You do not treat the action of throwing the vial of poison the same as throwing a splash weapon (from what I remember, all splash weapons have a splash radius, inhaled poisons does not). It needs to be listed as either a splash weapon or to function as a splash weapon when thrown for anyone to be able to mechanically treat it as a splash weapon. It may seem "obvious" to you, but it's not a splash weapon.
It's an improvised thrown weapon, treat it as such (An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet).

There are no rules saying how long a poison cloud lingers. I would assume that it stays until removed (by wind or any other mean) or until the dose is expended.

I hope you are satisfied with my answers. Your wording seems to suggest that you think that you can demand a specific type of answer to your questions on these messageboards.


Rub-Eta wrote:

Since flasks of acid and alchemist's fire break when thrown, I suppose a vial containing poison should break as well.

Yes, you can throw a vial at "some target" (target area or creature) and the inhale poison should spread into a 10 by 10 area. You do not treat the action of throwing the vial of poison the same as throwing a splash weapon (from what I remember, all splash weapons have a splash radius, inhaled poisons does not). It needs to be listed as either a splash weapon or to function as a splash weapon when thrown for anyone to be able to mechanically treat it as a splash weapon. It may seem "obvious" to you, but it's not a splash weapon.
It's an improvised thrown weapon, treat it as such (An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet).

There are no rules saying how long a poison cloud lingers. I would assume that it stays until removed (by wind or any other mean) or until the dose is expended.

I hope you are satisfied with my answers. Your wording seems to suggest that you think that you can demand a specific type of answer to your questions on these messageboards.

I do not "demand" anything, I hope it gets FAQ'ed since the rules regarding inhaled poisons are unclear to me ;)

RAW :

Quote:

A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).

Specifically the first sentence defines a splash weapon, which pretty much sounds like the picture I have of a poison vial (including the 5 feet spread, which is somewhat in consense with the 10 cubic feet given in the description of inhaled poisons). Could you give me a RAW on the "damage"-part you are refering to? The Ghast Retch Flask, as well as Itching- & Sneezing Powder are examples of splash weapons that do not deal direct damage.

This all (as well as your comparison with flask of acid) does only hold under the assumption that the poison is liquid. But the aggregate state of a poison is never mentioned. It could be a powder or, in case of inhaled poison, even a solid block, which would be burnt to take effect (or grinded to powder, in case you want to use a poison sand tube, see below).

Our group had an argument over that. There are several points for and against throwing inhaled poisons. One point for throwing poisons is the logical approach: you have a flask that cracks open and the chemical react with the air, creating the cloud. One argument against it is the theory that you need a two-component system to deliver the poison since the only two options I know of to deliver inhaled poisons are either traps or the poisoned sand tube.

We agreed to not throw inhaled poisons as as long as the rules are unclear and not FAQ'ed since neither of us could foresee the balance changes. Thus, I turned to this forum.

Regarding lingering time and poison stacking: I though the guys at paizo would figure out that some additional rules have to be made if throwing inhaled poisons is an option. To keep the question simple, I only wrote the necessary bits, which would imply the rest.

As I said before, I asked the question regarding lingering time in a different thread (click me, I am a link).


turing85 wrote:
Specifically the first sentence defines a splash weapon, which pretty much sounds like the picture I have of a poison vial (including the 5 feet spread, which is somewhat in consense with the 10 cubic feet given in the description of inhaled poisons).

"Somewhat consense" does not cut it. Only the first sentence puts splash weapons and the very loosely interpreted property of the vial of poison together. The rest of the splash weapon entry puts the vial of poison outside of the splash weapons category (the fact that it doesn't splash, for example).

turing85 wrote:
One argument against it is the theory that you need a two-component system to deliver the poison since the only two options I know of to deliver inhaled poisons are either traps or the poisoned sand tube.

This argument is outside of the rules. If this is a factor your group decides to base your rulings on, it is a house rule (and not something that can be answered as a rules question).

turing85 wrote:
The first three questions are interlocked, they cannot be answered independetely and must be answered as a whole (eiter they are ranged weapons, need a clear definition of attack bonus and a range increment or they are not).

This is what I'm referring to when I'm saying that it appears that you're making demands.

You will also find that poisons are very ineffective, in general. This may seem powerful, but remember that the save DC is still 13 (50/50 to affect many 1st level characters). And remember that wind will relocate the poison cloud. Spells such as Color Spray are far more reliable, lethal and cheap.


Rub-Eta wrote:
"Somewhat consense" does not cut it.

That is why I want to have it FAQ'ed :)

Rub-Eta wrote:

This argument is outside of the rules. If this is a factor your group decides to base your rulings on, it is a house rule (and not something that can be answered as a rules question).

As of right now, every argument is outside of the rules since definition is unclear. A baseline to go by would be to say "it does not say splash weapon, it is not a splash-weapon; it has no range increment, it cannot be thrown". This is the only logic that could apply (and is most likely how it was intended, but I would like to read this from the developer themself).

Rub-Eta wrote:

This is what I'm referring to when I'm saying that it appears that you're making demands.

Not I am making this demands. These RAW in and of themself make those demands. If it is a Splash Weapon and has no range increment, it has the default increment of 10 ft. If it is a ranged weapon, it needs to have a range increment or it is unplayable, thus cagetorizing it as a ranged weapon is useless without an range increment. If there is a possiblity to throw poisons, the weapon category itself will most probably answers the attack bonus question.

Rub-Eta wrote:

You will also find that poisons are very ineffective, in general. This may seem powerful, but remember that the save DC is still 13 (50/50 to affect many 1st level characters).

I highly disagree. Wizards/Sorcerer/Oracles/Witches all most probably have less than +3 on their fortitude saves at level 1.

Rub-Eta wrote:

And remember that wind will relocate the poison cloud.

Behaviour of the cloud is not part of my question. This would be more suiteable in my other question (provided, the clouds do linger at all).

Rub-Eta wrote:

Spells such as Color Spray are far more reliable, lethal and cheap.

It does not make sense to compare Color Spray with Drow Poison. They are absolutely different and typically used by different classes. A "counter argument" would be: "Drow Poison can affect sightless creatures, Color Spray cannot".

Not everything in RPG is about efficiency. Some things you want to do because they are stylish or because they fit your character.


Poisons are not defined as weapons (nor ranged weapons), thus they are not thrown splash weapons. So no splash (unless it's in the item description).

Combat, Throw Splash Weapon wrote:
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. ...


This is an interesting topic. By coincidence I have a guy in my group who asked me (as his future DM) about the exact same thing!

I offered him a house ruled feat that would work analogously to the Poison Bomb Ninja Trick, but with Smoke Pellets instead of the Ninja ki-based mechanic.

Perhaps you could ask your DM about a similar house rule. As it stands, after having read a little about it, I believe that not having poisons as splash weapons in the core rules is intentional. Otherwise, things like Poison Bomb and the Fumigant archetype would be of limited utility.

In any case, talking to the DM is the best option. I'm sure he or she would be a bit confused to find you lawyering up on the interwebs, especially when he or she had the impression that the topic was already brought to a conclusion.


turing85 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
"Somewhat consense" does not cut it.
That is why I want to have it FAQ'ed :)

There is no need for an FAQ about something that is already stated by the rules. They are not splash weapons.

turing85 wrote:
As of right now, every argument is outside of the rules since definition is unclear.

What I've told you about throwing vials of poison is 100% within the rules. Poisons are clearly not defined as weapons.

turing85 wrote:
I highly disagree. Wizards/Sorcerer/Oracles/Witches all most probably have less than +3 on their fortitude saves at level 1.

Really? My last Wizard and Witch both had +3 Fort (or more) at level 1. And some Wizards/Sorcerer/Oracles/Witches are not a large enough population to falsify my statement about many 1st level characters. A good fort + 12 CON or bad fort + 16 CON is all that it takes to already be there at level 1. Even a bad fort + 14 CON is only a 5% deviation from my statement. A DC 13 is not high.

turing85 wrote:
It does not make sense to compare Color Spray with Drow Poison. They are absolutely different and typically used by different classes.

Correction: Poison is not used by anyone, because it's really bad.

I compare them to point out to you that you don't have to be careful with poisons in terms of game balance. If a character would rather throw poisons around than use color spray, let them. They won't break the game, because poisons are that weak.


Well base poisons are pretty bad.
Toxicant archetype of Alchemist isn't bad though. but not the same aim as drow poison. and isn't labeled contact. Though its mechanics are contact.


while off topic, the gold efficiency of poisons are substandard. You pay a lot of gold for little effect in the end. Your gold would be better spent on wands or scrolls, even potions.


Sorry to necro this thread, but I was searching for similar clarifications and it came up.

I think the main problem here is a conflation of the inhaled poison itself and the delivery mechanism for said poison. A poison in itself is not a weapon. A container that holds the poison may be, as an improvised thrown weapon. This would give said weapon a range of 10 feet, with a -4 attack modifier unless you have the Throw Anything feat (as alchemists do by default).

Presuming you aren't trying to hit the creature itself, that means you just have to hit an intersection near it, which is AC 5. The 10x10 poison cloud then spreads out from this central point like any other area effect.

I suppose you *could* try to hit the creature as well, if you cared about doing the pittance of damage a tiny vial of poison is going to do on impact, in which case there is no clear ruling on where the poison spreads. Personally as a GM I would allow the player to choose an intersection point from one of the four corners for ease of play.

Now, that all said, the rules also state that "a splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects," which complicates things. That would seem to cover any breakable container with a fluidic substance within it. A flask of holy water for example is treated as a splash weapon, and there's nothing inherently different between a flask containing one liquid and a flask containing another liquid, or presumably a flask containing a gas or liquids that vaporize upon contact with air. Furthermore, "thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency," which does an end run around the Throw Anything problem as well.

So I could *also* see the argument for treating poison vials like splash weapons, because it's frankly absurd to make the distinction that they're not when there are so many other similar items that are. In which case direct hits would resolve like splash weapons and indirect hits would resolve the same as above.

There's really no excuse as to why Paizo doesn't have a clearer ruling on this. Potions & Poisons *just* came out; that was a perfect opportunity to errata this problem.

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